Homer Kincaid

[Ron Hill]

I've been told this is Homer, but do not know for sure. I do think, that the other boat is Dub Parker.

Old Man Seeblod, told me, that he'd just reworked Homers prop, this is Lakeland, Florida, I'm told... and that Homer was so surprised that he was passing everyone that he didn'nt even think of blowing over..

Homer once won every first place trophy at a race...He won EVERY CLASS... even though there were less classes in the old days, this wasn't easy!!!

Homer Kincaid, a legend in our family, from Carbon Cliff, Illinois...I only raced him twice, once in CRR and once in Valleyfield...He was on the down side of his career, I was on the up....He was a gentleman...and should be considered one!!!
He was "ALKY" VP of APBA, he gave more to the sprot, than he took!!! One of the few!!!

[ProHydroRacer]

I'm sure it not Homer it is Bud Finkle at Lakeland I think late '60s.
ProHydroRacer

[Dr. Thunder]

Back in the early 60's there was a picture that I think ran in OUTBOARD Magazine as well as several other boating publications of the time that carried outboard racing stories. The picture showed a runabout absolutely perpendicular to the water ... for some reason I think the caption said it was Homer Kincaid. It might have been a marathon race in Florida. Did Homer ever run in any stock outboard classes or in any marathons? Anyone remember the picture or have a copy that they could post?

[Peter Crowley]

There is another picture that I have always seen with this picture.... Rich Krier has been running boat # V-51 for MANY years...... Perhaps is was his father Ken Krier (using the same number?) who made this famous flip?

[ProHydroRacer]

Look closely to the boat deck, the number is V-511. Years ago Bud told me it was him (Bud Finkle of Lake Forrest Illinois). Bud is a tall guy, look at the long legs in the picture. Rich is from Iowa X numbers not V.
Bill

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Homer's no. was V-9. Bud Finkl's no. , in several old driver's list was V-511. The second 1 is obscured by the cone of the bouy. Although I dated Bud's daughter for about a year and a half, I never met him. He quit a few years after I started. But, the photo has been in race programs from Florida to Minnesota and probably from coast to coast. In the back of my mind I think one of the old Orange Bowl Regatta programs identified the driver as Bud. It did occur at Lakeland, Florida probably at the same race that another famous race photo was taken--that of Dick O'Dea. Dick or John Schubert might fill us in.

BTW Ron, you mentioned the prop Bill Seebold had worked on for Homer reminds me. Just before you left for Italy, I talked with Bill and Pauline Seebold for a long time. He has 5 C Service engines running. Trying to get him hooked up on a computer to join BRF.

[David Mason]

Did the driver next to the possible Homer Kincaid avoid that Post ? Sure looks like a tight squeeze between it and Homer.

[Ron Hill]

I think the other driver was Dub Parker from Gadsden, Alabama...Never heard he hit the pole....

In the OLD Days of Salton Sea, they had a permanent 1 2/3 course with steel pipes as bouys. Doctor Kearn, had a conventional C Racing Hydro, which meant it was pointed like a runabout...in 1952, he hit a pipe bouy at Salton Sea and it split the boat to the cockpit and broke his helmet in half...(Those old bill helmets...you could see where the pipe hit...didn't hurt him...We had the helmet for years, it was metallic green)...I think that was Doc Kearn's last race...He had been our sponsor...Drove brand new Studebakers...

At the Lake Mead Regatta, my dad had Doc Kearn convinced they could win at Craps...Doc's money, my dad's brains..Doc knew my dad knew motors...thought maybe he knew craps...Lost thier asses!!!!

I think, after my brother took out a steel bouy, at Lake Mead, 1956, it was decided that bouy should not be a SOLID object... My brother sure knocked **** out of his old Swift on a 55 gallon drum!!!

I was E-mailing with Johnny Woods, today. I told him, if he'd invite me to St. Louis, I'd come and visit him...I could go see Grandpa Seebold while I was there!!! I could get some cool stories from Grandpa!!! Stories Billy would never tell!!!

[Ron Hill]

http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2043&highlight=Homer#post2043

I just reread the article from Boat Sport....Somewhere I remember reading that Home once won every class at a race...

[Pete Nydahl]

Here is Homer in a C hydro"Byers maybe?"Looks like he has ZAK pipes on that Konig?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Those are ZAK pipes, almost certainly the first set Harry ever made. He told me in several conversations that the first set he made were for Homer's "C" Konig. The later ones he built for "B", "C", and "D", were hand fabricated insofar as the expansion chambers themselves, but the collectors from the individual cylinders were beautiful aluminum castings. Unlike the Konig pipes used on later model engines furnished direct from the factory and combining top and bottom cylinders together, front to back separately, Harry's pipes combined the top two cylinders and the bottom two cylinders into separate chambers.

The reason I think they are the first set ever, is after making that first set for Homer, the elbows/two into one collectors had so many curves and tapers that doing it in sheet metal was a real problem. He decided since he was a pattern maker by trade (along with many other capabilities) that he would just make a pattern and cast them from aluminum. Very easy to turn them out and he always felt that the two cylinders that fired together should go into the same chamber. That is why they were made that way.

After several years they began to suffer in contrast with the Konig factory pipe for two reasons. Firstly, it was very difficult to make them slide with the header arrangement, two top and two bottom cylinders going into the same chamber, although he did try various sliding stinger arrangements, and also an internal sliding arrangement that was not noticable from the outside just looking at it. This method of sliding the ZAK pipes is convered in Wayne Baldwin's posts in another thread along with some pictures of same, on I believe Ray Hardy's "B" engine. Also in about the early to mid 70's Dieter changed the block casting on the engines that moved the exaust ports closer together so as to use a very short elbow. The ZAK casting would not work anymore. Harry wondered whether that was done to eliminate him as a competitor insofar as pipe building. No matter the reason, he had just about broken even on the pattern cost of the first design and did not want to spend the time making another pattern, have the spacing changed again, and have all that work down the drain, so that was effectively the end of the ZAK pipes. They did work very well when he first came out with them and were a definate advantage over the standard Konig exaust at the time. I don't know whether he was the first to have expansion chambers on a Konig, but he was certainly the first to be building them for the average boat racer on any kind of a production basis. I seem to remember the cost as in the 250/300 dollar range which was considerable at that time, although boat racers were not any different then as they are now. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go, and they were definately superior to the standard system from the factory. With the effort, workmanship and material in them, he certainly did not make a killing on them, even at that price at that time. He just wasn't that type of person.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That is a pretty good recap of the ZAK pipes Bill Van. Harry didn't have the first expansion pipes, but he made a good bridge between the open exhausts that were forced into mufflers by the Europeans and the sliding expansion chambers that came about over here in 1971.

When exhaust noise had to be reduced in Europe, Dieter envoped the short stacks inside a muffler that had a water feed from the top front cylinder that went into the top front of the "can". The exhaust outlet was about 3/4th from the front end of the can instead of the back. (This line of thinking has now got me to wondering, because Dieter never put out a product without a lot of tests.) The first cans were fixed, but in short order Deiter sent out instructions on sliding the pipes. I can remember that from the days we lived in Alice. It showed how to rig up a piece of wood to push back with your foot to allow the can to slide back on the exhaust manifold, then move your foot forward and allow a spring to pull it up.

Harry's design got more horsepower to the engine without all that. He made a tool to change out the very stiff springs used to hold various stinger lengths in place. The Zak Stacks at that time were a very beautiful piece of cast aluminum manifold with a NASA looking orange set of pipes and stinger attachments. It was state of the art at the time.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

Your comment about the attractiveness of Harry' pipes and especially the manifolds reminds me of one of the first real differences of opinion Eileen and I had about something, shortly after our marriage in 1973. I believe it was in the late fall as we were married in October and I was working in the basement to store all the racing equipment for the midwest winter. As you surely remember, if you don't get all the castor off the engine and accessories before storage, it acts like flypaper and attracts everything to it over what ever period of time it is stored. I had used after the races the normal cleaners, brake cleaner, 409, etc., but since I wanted everything to really be clean for the start of the next season, I was looking for not only a better way, but also a less labor intensive method.

We had bought some new kitchen appliances when we got married, a brand new electric stove, featuring the new at that time, high temperature self cleaning oven feature, which when used, burned off all the spilled, splattered, and baked on crud that had accumulated in the oven. I checked with Harry and he said any metal or brazing/welding in the pipes, or the material they were made out of would not be harmed by this process. He neglected to mention what harm might be done to a new marriage.

I waited until Eileen went on a 3 day trip in her job as a flight attendant, and then took everything apart and put it in the oven in seperate pieces, nicely arranged on the racks, and turned it on to "CLEAN". It did a wonderful job, burning all the paint off the pipes, almost ready for repainting without any further preparation. It also removed the thin layer of castor oil from the outside of the manifolds, which I was having problems getting off because of the rough porosity finish of the aluminum. It really got it out of the pores of the metal between all the cooling fins cast into the manifolds about every half inch or so. It also did a very good job of removing it from the inside of the expansion chambers, and that is where the real problem came from. As the inside of the pipes had never been cleaned, and had had about three seasons of racing on them, the coating of castor rich carbon was fairly thick on the inside of the pipes, and the amount that was there left the aroma of burnt castor oil lingering in the house for many weeks. We tried a lot of sprays, deodorants, and other various means to rid the house of the smell, but in the end it just took time. I thought it wasn't that bad. It sure smelled a heck of a lot better than the cat box after we had both been gone traveling 3-4 days at the same time.

I learned a valuable lesson at that time, No matter how much your new bride loves boat racing, there is a limit to what they will put up with. Harry got a big chuckle out of my stupidity, and that is occasionaly brought up almost 35 years later.

[jrome]

Bill , I Wish Baldy Could Of Read Your Story.he Would Have Loved To Kid You About Cooking With The Wrong Oil.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Joe:

You are "oh so right" about Baldy. I never told him about this "dumb ***" move. He had so many others to kid me about he didn't need any more. In fact, he had about 10 years worth. I told him one time, I was really happy I could provide him with so much amusement, with not hardly any effort on my part.
I thought he was going to split his gut laughing.

He was surely one of a kind about teasing you when you screwed up, but never mean, and always good natured about it.

Reminds me of another "Baldy Story", and this was one he told on himself. I don't know whether it really happened or not, but it was funny as hell around the kitchen table one nite, eating gumbo and drinking beer.

According to the story, he and some friends went out west to Colorado, Montana, or some other western state to go hunting. Deer, elk, whatever, and it was one of those trips that you had the outfitters that loaded up in either horses or mules for the trip. After you went so far it became too rough for riding and it was neccessary to walk. As I am sure you and anyone who knew Baldy is aware, he was not a small person. He told me one time his weight fluctuated between 300 - 330 lbs depending on whether it was summer or winter. In other words, he was a "BIG" man. He had walked quite some distance carrying a good load, and was getting winded and tired, as were the others in the group, so they decided to stop and rest for a short while. As they were setting on a log or other place to rest, his face was red and he was breathing hard, and one of his friends on the trip asked him if he was OK. He said fine, just needed to rest a bit. Whoever the person was asking about his condition didn't let up and continued to want to know if he was OK. He said that he was fine and just not used to that much exercise at that high altitude as they were in the mountains. The guy wouldn't let up on him as he was really setting him up for the punch line. When Baldy said for about the 5th time he was OK and not to worry about him, the friend said he was comforted by that information but just in case there was a problem later would Baldy mind if they clarified something before hand. Baldy said No, what do you need to know. The guy answered, "Baldy, if something happens and you keel over and die, is it OK if we clean and gut you before we carry you out of here"?

When he got to the punch line, he really he-hawed as even though the joke was on him, he enjoyed it as much as if it were on someone else. That is one of the qualities that made him such a tremendous person.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Back in the early 1970s in our brand new house and just married too I got a set of my Quincy pipes, a 4 pipe system blasted and cleaned and decided to VHT paint them and cure them in my wife's brand new gas oven. She went out to the lake that weekend and I would follow up the next day with a phoney excuse about some engine work I wanted to complete before I left (the pipes). After she left that evening I put the VHT painted pipes in the new gas oven for the required time. I went outside for a beer. Coming in for another brewski I was shocked at the stench of the oven curing paint and opened all the windows and put the A/C on high and hoped for the best. Alas! That was not to happen being the best, it was horrible and when I got back after the weekend with her the stench was still as bad and stayed that way for months! I was mentally beaten about the head for months on end and people wondered why I wouldn't have any one over for any visit! In the end for $10.00 I got a used kitchen oven I put in the garage and from that time on I behaved myself, in my wife's kitchen, not my kitchen, my wife's and she does not let me forget that 35 years later now but at least now we laugh at it! The knobs and the swelling from being beaten there have finally subsided!!!! :)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That was a good story that my Dad used to tell Bill Van, but you mixed it with another story and only got it half right. My Dad and one of his buddies Andy Anderson went to Colorado to hunt elk. He had a 4 wheel drive Willis with an electric winch on the back. While there in Gunnisson, the vechicle was broken into and most of the guns were stolen. They were never recovered because my Dad discovered that the sheriff of Gunisson whom he reported the burglary to was in on it. They had a gang that burglarized out of state hunter's vehicles. They spent several days hunting without seeing a thing. If you don't know how to hunt elk you won't see them. Then they heard a lot of shooting, but they couldn't drive to it so my Dad winched the Willis down one side of a mountain and back up on the other side where the shooting continued. When they finally drove up to the action, they discovered four other guys he knew from Alice, who were likewise having no luck. They stumbled across a stream with rainbow trout and they were shooting fish. That's my Dad's other Colorado story.

The one you told is true, but it involved Louis Turcotte who was one of my pit men, Bud Turcotte's, Dad. My Dad weighed mostly around 300. The other guy in the story was Fred Flato another of our friends who weighed in around 330. My Dad only went to Colorado once, but Louis and Fred hunted there frequently. It was Louis who asked Fred if he minded whether he gutted him out. Other than the cast of characters, the story is about as you told it.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Hi Wayne:

I have absolutely no doubt that the way you retold the story was the way it actually happened, but as you know, your Dad used to sometimes embellish the truth when telling stories such as this, especially if it was late at nite, a goodly quantity of brew had been consumed, and he wanted to make the story more interesting and timely for the group it was being told to. As previously mentioned when retelling another tall tale of his, he would sometimes tell the story for the best effect for his audience. In this case, it was a lot funnier the way he told it, than the way you indicate it actually happened, as he was at the center of it. It would have been humerous in any case, but with him leading the cast of characters, it was more so. He knew that I am sure, so that is why we heard it the way we did, Eileen was with me at the telling of the story and she agrees.

Whatever the actual occurance that prompted the tale, his willingness to put himself in the story so as to amuse his guests at somewhat his expense, shows the great personality he had. The story itselt is funny whoever the characters, but Baldy's complete comfort in his own skin to tell the story the way he did without any hesitation of making himself somewhat the butt of the joke, again just gives I think, real insight into the type person he was. Eileen and I both were very saddened when you called to tell us of his passing some years ago, because friends like him only come along very rarely in life. You were very fortunate to have had him for your Dad, and a conversation I had with him at his home after finishing with a business trip to San Antonio and then driving on down for an overnite visit with him, confirmed how proud he was of you as we talked about old times. That was the last time I saw him and I think it was about three years or so before his death. The exact time frame escapes me but it was within a year or so after the fire. That is when I heard about the "dumbass move" of not pulling the Suburban back under the carport and it being the only thing that survived the fire except for a very few hand carried out possessions. He was a geat person and Eileen and I consider ourselves very fortunate to have been allowed to be his guests so many times and enjoy his friendship and hospitality.