View Full Version : Speed Limit Too High
Ron Hill
08-06-2005, 05:59 PM
Jim Wilkes says the speed limit is too high, and I agree.
80 mph is too fast for OLD GUYS and YOUNG GUYS to be turning over...An 80 MPH speed limit means you could average 80 MPH around the course, too fast in the turns...too hard on equipment..
Why has NOSTALGIA GROWN? Old guys wanting to still race. Wife doesn't think it is too dangerous. Wife doesn't see thousands of dollars going to engine rebuilds...
I vote with Wilkews....
racer98
08-06-2005, 07:55 PM
It's NOT 80mph Average, it's 80mph MAX. speed. You must carry a GPS that records max. speed, your allowed 80.9 mph, if you exceed it at any time on the water (including warm-up or warm-down) your DQ'd.
The problem I've seen in nostalgia is if the guy in Lane 1 can maintain 80mph around the entire course, no body can possibly beat him without exceeding the speed limit.
please excuse my ignorance before i start. lol
doesnt that make for a race that while it my be decided by the time the boats cross the start line (barring misshaps ) still have a race that is very close on times between leader and last. therefore an exciting race for any spectators that you might actually draw to the races?
Mark75H
08-07-2005, 07:11 AM
It's NOT 80mph Average, it's 80mph MAX. speed. You must carry a GPS that records max. speed, your allowed 80.9 mph, if you exceed it at any time on the water (including warm-up or warm-down) your DQ'd.
The problem I've seen in nostalgia is if the guy in Lane 1 can maintain 80mph around the entire course, no body can possibly beat him without exceeding the speed limit.
Sounds like a big IF to me and if that is the case it also sounds like the nostalgia guys have the turns set up too wide. Turning sharp enough to correctly maintain lane one should scrub off enough more speed for lane 2 to be competitive. Anyone who as ever driven a race boat knows how hard it is to maintain speed thru turns ... even big wide sweeping turns - a boat that can maintain straightaway speed all the way thru the turns deserves to win. I can't see how a boat that could actually maitain 80 thru the whole turn doesn't accidently go over 81 coming out of a turn.
Ron Hill
08-07-2005, 10:38 AM
Well, I AIN'T never race Nostalgia..OK??? But I have watched them. Seems to me that going 70 is a corner was scary enough...Capnzee had Ted Kolby's GN on the side... Truth is, you turn a BIG BOAT OVER many bad things (CAN) happen...
Jim Wilke's point...Let's say, Ron Hill wants to run Nostalgia...If he borrows a boat just to try out the racing....80 is hard on a guy's motor...If Ron Hill breaks a guy's motor then, he can't race his regular class...The club loses money...someone has to do an engine repair.
When Gil Suiter left boat racing for the World of Outlaws, he told me they could get 5 races in with a motor, Super Stock racing reqwuired him to get a new each race...
Nostalgia means, you come to the race with a COOL LOOKING thing (BOAT), you race around...put the boat on the trailer and go home.....no wrenching on the motor....dinner with the wife... That's Wilke's point...
He says, "He doesn't want to get off (Spill) a flat bottom or GN at 80 and therefore he isn't going to race." Wilke's MArine probably put s Flat Bottom a month out the door that could RACE NOSTALGIA!!!
Jim has put on several Flat Bottom events, the last one at Irvine Lake had so many entries they had to turn boats away....His Parker Event had like 250 boats...So, Jim know flat bottoms and flat bottom people....
Me, I hope they stay with 80, becasue if they let me run my MOD VP with them, my only hope is to be able to go 80 about half way down the straight away...As those Flatties will beat my outboards butt off the corners...
I was hoping to generate some interest here!!
A little picture from the Parker 9 Hour...1963 7 Liter hydro and an Allison powered Rayson Craft...
Some of you have heard this all before, so my comments are for those right here who dont have a clue about Nostalgia, including Mr Wilkes it would seem.
Mr. Hill and others, in my opinion, Nostalgia is to inboard boat racing as bracket racing was to the rebirth of drag racing. NHRA drag racing became a rich mans sport in the 70s with the almighty dollar buying the best horsepower and quickest cars and of course big dollar sponsors catered to the cream of the pot. Their attendance and racer entries fell since no one wanted to see the same cars win constantly. Then AHRA and Mr. Jim Tice came around with an alternative style of 'run what ya brung', we have a class for everyone! The result was widespread growth to drag racing since it now had a place for the little guy and the big boys.
Growth is what you are talking about for boat racing and we have experienced it first hand here in the Northwest and in the East where vintage events fluorish. We made a class that all inboards would fit into! JUST LIKE CAR DRAG RACING. When apba division 10 struggled to get the minimum (four) flat v-drives for SS or PS, we were enjoying 12 to 20 similar craft at each of our events. APBA said,"no new classes period", in 2000 to us and our oldies and possibly they were right as far as safety was concerned. Our old boats and rookie drivers (very few OLD drivers race Nostalgia) should not have started on the large mile plus courses offered by APBA clubs. Some of us would have hit 90 on the long straights with disastrous results. Instead, we borrowed the shorter outboard 3/4 oval and that alone kept the speeds down. Now some 5 years later, we former spectators really enjoy our Nostalgia boat racing where our average speed record is 70mph and we provide quite an interesting close race for our fans. So I ask you, why not shorten the course and put the EXCITING race right in front of the crowd? You should do it right now for your Nostalgia. Throw the GPS away, you wont need it on a 3/4 mile. We time our heats with a computer and the majority of our racers are running 60mph, sound good? Lets get our two groups a little closer on the rules so one day soon the North can meet the South! Would you like to see 24 boats in just one class?
Ron Hill
08-08-2005, 11:35 AM
The Formula Lights have been running 35 to40 second laps. 3/4 mile would be about how many second laps???
Basically, you are saying, 80 MPH is too fast...Region 12, usually runs Bakersfield, Parker....like 1 1/4 mile course...
Ron, you're playing with me right? Does anyone out there know what Gn98 and I are talking about????? Average speed? Should I capitalize it or underline it? NO, 80 maximum IS NOT TOO FAST for the better Nostalgia boats. Forget it. We have a real race to get ready for, Ron will have to come sometime or buy our DVD.
BStellyman
08-15-2005, 04:02 PM
Jim Wilkes says the speed limit is too high, and I agree.
80 mph is too fast for OLD GUYS and YOUNG GUYS to be turning over...An 80 MPH speed limit means you could average 80 MPH around the course, too fast in the turns...too hard on equipment..
Why has NOSTALGIA GROWN? Old guys wanting to still race. Wife doesn't think it is too dangerous. Wife doesn't see thousands of dollars going to engine rebuilds...
I vote with Wilkews....
I have several rebutals to this and the some of the other threads being posted here.
The Nostalgia Class drivers currenly racing in SCSC, not sitting on the beach, had a vote several months back regarding lowering our speed limit down to 75mph. Of the 14 drivers that replied, the vote was 12 to 2 to keep it at 80mph.
That being said, if Mr. Wilkes would like to put on his own Nostalgia races, with a speed limit of less than 80mph, feel free, nothing is stoping him. In fact, put me on the mailing list to inform me when and where, and I will be there. We invite anybody to come out and race, even if they do not want to 80mph, we do not have a minimum speed limit! I have won several races in the past year, where my GPS has read below 75mph top speed, not an average!! Since, we monitor top speed, not our average speed, there is no way we are maintaining 80mph in the corners!! I admit, at a location like Bakersfield, I am aware of a driver that never lifted in corners, only used the down pedal, won every race that weekend and never read over 76mph on the GPS!
As far as being hard on the equipment, the boat I drive runs a 9.5 to 1, single carbed, small block chevy, with maybe 400hp. Mr. Wilkes is very familiar with this boat! We are in the midst of our 3rd season with out ever going thru the bottom end. We turn around 6000rpm, probably the highest in the class, must guys are turning less than 6000rpm, I am aware of a boat only turning 5000rpm, and winning!! Now you can't tell me that is to hard on equipment! So my feeling is, don't sit on the beach, speculating on how fast we should go, how hard it is on the equipment, and how unsafe it is, if you have never even entered, or possibly even seen us race.
As far as growth goes, at Long Beach this past weekend, we had 8 boats start the endurance races. We had 11 start the flats, we had to have 2 qualifiers for flats because of boat count, first time ever. We put on some of the closest, safest, best racing Long Beach has seen in a long time. I had several people tell me that, the Nostalgia classes were the best of show at Long Beach!! So I think the numbers are proving themselves! If you want a speak out about how the Nostalgia Classes are run, then join the racing, then your voice we be heard, and counted!
As far as shortening our course, and doing away with the GPS, I do not see that happening right now. We are a local class that runs SCSC events, what ever course SCSC sets up, thats what we run, nothing special, that would be asking way to much from the club. And since the introduction of the GPS, we have put on some of the best and safest racing Nostalgia has ever seen, so I think the GPS is here to stay for now also.
As far as a North vs South event, I feel we could possibly come to a agreement in the rules for an event like this. But, a professional safety crew like NJBA is a must!! SCSC uses them at all their races, these guys are some of the best in the world. I feel better doing 80mph with NJBA on the ready, then I would at 70mph with less professional personel, if any, on the water.
So, I will say it again. The current group of Nostalgia drivers racing in SCSC voted, and by a score of 6 to 1, our speed limit is 80mph.
Brad Stellman
Spearmint Rhino #711
Father Nastalgia
08-16-2005, 07:40 AM
Ron, if you posted that picture with the allison, will you e-mail that and any others of that boat. That was the aero marine special, the driver in that picture is my dad, John Best, we have very few pictures of it and I would appreciate it. Second, when Brad mentioned the winning speeds at less than 80, he was right on. Having introduced the class more than 4 years ago, I can attest to the fact that we have grown a whole lot. We tried everything, radar, timed laps etc. to maintain the speed. The gps has been outstanding in keeping the speed where it should be. It is a whole lot safer for the drivers as not only do they have to keep an eye out for other drivers, where they are at on the race course and what they might be doing, the individual driver has to pay attention to his speed. Attention.... that adds an element of safety to the formula. That was the paramount no. 1 rule ,,,Safety, when the class was born. Keep it safe. As to the speed, I have two sons who also race their own nostalgia boats and consistently their winning speeds range from 74 to 80.9 mph. People can't say it can't be done because it has and it works. I run two boats, a 20ft. gn raysoncraft and an 18 flatbottem raysoncraft. They are highly competitive and are just backyard prepped boats. There are a lot of critics out there with comments and suggestions. I challenge those people to be do-ers and speak from the cockpit and not the beach. I will also appreciate any invitation from Jim Wilkes , if he puts on a nostalgia race at 70. I am here for the love of the sport and would gladly come. As a nostalgia class, we have been invited to other club events, Jan.2005 at Havisu Landing for one, so we are willing, able and have responded. We, as a nostalgia class, are do-ers. Enough said. Jim Best
rossdbos
08-16-2005, 08:27 AM
So now we have heard conjecture from those that haven't raced the class offering opinions of what is good for the class and then we have heard from two people who have the most valuable opinions for these classes - Brad Stellman & Jim Best (my compatriot in forming these classes). I suggest to those that think 80mph is too fast to come but run their boat at their comfortable speed, I can assure you it will be very close to the rest of the pack. The class is growing and I am very pleased to see the fruits of all of our labor paying dividends.
Ron, just because someone has an opinion regarding a class please don't feel the need post it, Jim Wilkes is big boy and can get on the website and post his opinions anytime he wants. The MPH issue is DEAD and I don't want to revisit it perhaps ever. I want to continue to grow these classes that's why Jim Best and I sat down and first put pencil to paper and I give him and Brad and Kent all the credit. It's great to see those boats on the water and at the current speed it looks like great racing. So with that said Ron, a favor, please concentrate on getting entrants for the BWRC Enduro rather than spending valuable time poking with a class that is working. Stick to one thing and we can grow big, spread yourself thin by getting involved in every issue/non-issue will do nothing but waste time. As I told you when you were in my office don't mess with my classes that are working- SST-45, Nostalgia Flat, Nostalgia Endurance, I don't need more classes with one or two boats, I need classes that have real competition 10+ boats consistently. Thank you for your regard and your help now lets get all those entrants in for the Enduro before I pull the plug on it!!!!
Ross Wallach, S.C.S.C./RPM Racing Ent. ;)
Hello Ross and Jim. It pleases me to no end to see this class grow! Our group started in 2001 with 5 boats and by the second race we hit 13. Our high has been Tastin Racin at Sammamish Lake near Issaquah Wa where we hit 20 flats, three hydros and two jersey skiffs! This year we have felt the money crunch as well as a couple drivers deciding that after four years of racing a retirement was due. But then the newbies just keep coming and we always have a dozen entries!
Jim, I see you are 'Father Nastalgia' of California, so I must be 'Father Nostalgia' of the Northwest. No problem for me though, I'm extremely happy for you guys. I think Ross and I talked way back when about boat racing and he may have even given me pointers or advise. That was the real key! Get the veterans to help us former spectators in the continuing and improvement of what nobody else figured would work!!! Nostalgia Circle Boat Racing
Here I go again returning to my roots of car drag racing.....look at Nostalgia drags! Are our 30+ year old boats any less appealing? Not when you multiply the racing action by the number 3! We have six or more racing at the same time! If you havent seen this, or better yet, HEARD this for yourself, you're missing out period.... 48 BIG block cylinders randomly firing or mis-firing at full throttle and then echoing accross the water does get ones attention even if they havent a clue as to what is going on both class wise or speed limit wise! Full classes are more exciting!
Now, in my opinion, we just need to add alcohol to the mix and even supercharged craft and with the same rules and restrictions, then we can complete the show. Or even injected K boats, just like days of old. I'm building one, and there are plenty already out there cruising the lakes in a somewhat dangerous fashion. (no rescue boats or ambulance there ) That's just one jErKs opinion
NIce going guys, I see a combined race in our future, dont you?
Mr. Ross, how about Burley? Or a possible fuel sponsorship to attend Ming? I think my wife can whip up on Mr. Nastalgia! I might even get Mr. George Nordling interested in bringing the 'Yellow Canary' Lavey.
rossdbos
08-23-2005, 08:47 AM
ONCB:
I am very happy to hear that Nostalgia Racing in the Great Northwest is continuing the growth cycle and hope it sustains for many, many years to come. I would love to discuss the possibilities of a "North/South Shootout" give me a call when you get a moment to discuss possibly a two- or three race series- Burley, Parker, & Washington? I'll look forward to discussing this with you.
Ross Wallach (562) 633-6200
rossdbos26@yahoo.com
;)
YES! we are trying the GPS at our next race. What's the allowance for the 3 min warmup slow laps? It must affect the average.....Is max speed the important figure or average. We'll talk.
racer98
08-23-2005, 08:48 PM
ONCB:
Don't roll over, you've got the better system.
I've run the R12 nostie deal, this GPS/ Speed limit dealio is a joke. Instead of racing the guys in the class you spend half the time looking at the GPS to make sure you don't go too fast. I keep telling them to run the lawnmower boat course, turn 'em lose and let 'em race. If their too fast shorten the course until you get 'em where you want 'em. One of these days I gotta get up north to run with you guys, but not if I gotta chase a GPS reading.
BStellyman
08-24-2005, 09:35 AM
YES! we are trying the GPS at our next race. What's the allowance for the 3 min warmup slow laps? It must affect the average.....Is max speed the important figure or average. We'll talk.
ONCB,
For us, the GPS is on the whole time, including the warm-up laps. We do not use the average speed info from the GPS, just the top speed info, which will include any warm-up lap information. If you break the top speed in warm-up, you will be penalized. Maybe not a perfect system, but the best we have come up with so far, and it seems to be working well in most cases.
I must say this, a hand held GPS is very hard to read while driving/racing. We use it as a low cost monitor. I suggest knowing what RPM to turn for the speed limit, or running a larger, more readable GPS guage along with the hand held required by the class.
Just as I thought! Thanks guys for the heads up. Now if you could reset the GPS remotely at the start, no one would have to watch the terminal speed, right? Oh well, short straights it is. I dont know why three or four buoys of a different color wouldnt make it easy for you to drop the course down.....Heck, maybe you need to volunteer an extra work boat and crew to attach them?>? I know, its hard enough to get bodies to work on the weekend, we run in to that problem all the time! Our computer times very accurately but we must have a surveyed course for it to work. Moses Lake will be just that. I was trying to find a solution to those new boats who join later in the year or the ones who just keep improving their performance and must be moved to the fast class mid year. Perhaps, all is well, and I worry too much. What do you think about a Nascar style flag start, can all your guys see them? Does it work well? Otherwise we use a clock unless it breaks.
ONCB:
Don't roll over, you've got the better system.
I've run the R12 nostie deal, this GPS/ Speed limit dealio is a joke. Instead of racing the guys in the class you spend half the time looking at the GPS to make sure you don't go too fast. I keep telling them to run the lawnmower boat course, turn 'em lose and let 'em race. If their too fast shorten the course until you get 'em where you want 'em. One of these days I gotta get up north to run with you guys, but not if I gotta chase a GPS reading.
You're cracking me up..........lawnmower course! Funny thing when the town of Ione tried to get an event at their local park, the lawnmower racers turned them down! So, I guess we are second fiddle to turf trimmers! What does one do, like remove blades to save weight and hide nitrous under the large seat? Can you run 110? thanks Jim, I couldnt resist.......jErK
capnzee
10-12-2005, 05:42 PM
I would like to respond to Mr. Hill's remark about 80mph being too fast and also his remark that I had Ted Kolby's GN BODY SNATCHER on it's side during a nostalgia race. 80 mph is certainly not too fast if you like that kind of racing and I am sure the crowd does and so do a lot of other racers. As far as having the boat "on it's side", I did, but not during the race. After the race I thought I would make one "hot" lap. I brought the plate "up" a little early in the turn and the boat got a little "loose" . Simple as that! 80mph may be too fast for some classes of nostalgia racing, D run a bouts for example, but not too fast for the classes currently being run in Southern California. The proof is in the pudd'n so why screw with success! I would like to see the hydros brought back here in Southern California--(I believe the east coast allows 85 mph) I would vote for a name like "Classic Hydros". I have one that would be ready to go and I know of several others, if we can get some interest. Ross has said he will run them if we can get a respectable number out for a race.**** Like the Parker 300, WE HAVE A SPORT TO SAVE! **** ROD ZAPF :) (CAPNZEE)
Father Nastalgia
10-13-2005, 10:39 AM
There was a question from Ron Hill about opc boats competing in the Nostalgia Endurance class. I consulted with 6 present competitors and 5 expressed they would welcome them as competitors in the sport. Ross Wallich of SCSC indicated that they could compete in the Nostalgia endurance class if the majority of the racers agreed. I now put it out on the table and would appreciate any and all feedback. The next SCSC race is at Parker, Blue water Casino next month so contact me through this forum or email me at GN145@aol.com Jim
Jackpunx
10-13-2005, 02:39 PM
I talked to Ross about a modvp class with an 80-85mph speed limit.. I know this thread is about inboards.. but.
Put us on the list with at least one boat.. probably 3 in that class
Code Blue Racing
10-13-2005, 08:21 PM
That is very interesting !!!
Thank you Jim !!!
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