Honda 4 Stroke Testing

[MN1]

Mark J and I took some photos today. It's Honda's 50 hp 4 stroke. Short shaft. Tried some Sport C props. Best RPM was only around 4500 and 57 mph. Should get even faster with the right props.
Mark N

[sst45jefff]

are you testing for sport C or SST45 ?

[MN1]

I don't think it's for either class. Just wanting to see how this type of motor runs on an SST 45 boat. Runs pretty good from what I saw.
Not bad looking too! I would think it could be in the 65 mph range very quick. The motor needs to be raised about 1/2" to 3/4" still and run a smaller pitch prop.
Cool little motor.
Mark N

[mercmack]

I MYSELF AM SURE GLADE TO SEE THIS, WITH 4 STROKES EVERYWARE THESE DAY... BUT JUST SO MANY PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF THESE THINGS..OR AS LEAST SEEM TO BE...TO ME A OUTBOARD IS A OUTBOARD...MANY AND I MEAN MANY YEARS AGO WHEN I FIRST GOT INTO THE MARINE REPAIR OF THESE THINGS BACK IN THE VERY EARLY 50'S ONE OF MY FIRST BOSSES TOLD ME " A OUTBOARD IS A OUTBOARD" JUST BEACUSE THE STARTER IS ON A DIFFERENT SIDE THERE ALL THE SAME.. SO NOW THERES A FEW EXTRA PARTS AND THEY HAVE VALVE THAT GO UP AND DOWN INSTEAD OF LITTLE HOLES WHERE THE FUEL GOES..THEY STILL HAVE A PROP THAT GOES AROUND AND AROUND...BRING THEM ON...AND FAT "c" OR SPORT"C" IS A GO AS ANY TO START..:) :) :)

[mercmack]

Just A P.s. To Above...with The Rumor That Merc Will Have Its Own 4 Stroke This Coming Feb At The Miami Boat Show..that Means 4 Different Brands Of 4 Strokes That Will Be Available To Use..why Let The Bomb Dif Eng Run With Them...they Wieght Just As Much As The Other 50/60 4strokes Do..:) :) Just Think Of All The Props That Ron Could Sell...:d :d

(merc's Present 50/60 4stroke Has A Yama Powerhead)

[hydroc888]

I think the system that is in place now is a better one. Only moters that are out of date , with parts no longer available and only a select few has anything worth running and the only motor you can get for the stock classes is made in Japan. Gees . Think of it. Going to a boat race and seeing AMERICAN made motors again. What would people think ? Well maybe they would think " if they are good enough to race I might buy one for my fishing boat " . Just my thoughts.
Jack [ hydroc888 ]
Taft Ca.

[Jakob77]

We approched Honda last year to see if they would be interested in racing. The thought was to have a class that could be a good place for people to start. Be able to buy a completely new motor, bolt it on and go.

I don't advocate getting rid of our current 2 stroke classes - SST45, SST60, or SST120, but those parts are getting hard to find and I believe it can be a show-stopper for new people wanting to get into boat racing. Either it's a ton of money to find parts, or some other boat racer tries to 'help them out' by selling them their junk parts.

After discussions with Honda, they put this package together and sent it out for testing. If it works without having to produce any special parts, I think they are willing. Bombardier doesn't seem as willing to back racing with their new motors.

This motor isn't currently available in this configuration. Honda doens't make a 50HP short shaft motor. It's their short gear case mounted on the 35HP Jet gear case and powerhead, which is the 3cyl 50HP powerhead.

Testing did seem to go better than expected. For just bolting a motor on a boat that is 70lbs heavier than the motor taken off, performance was pretty decent. As Mark N said, prop work would go a long way. We simply bolted the factory Honda gauges in the boat, tach w/ oil pressure and over-heating indicators, electric trim gauge, and ignition switch.

The one downside we found was the fuel sloshed in the carbs and killed the engine in the the turns, so that would have to be addressed.

Anyway, that's what we learned on Sunday. I have some more pictures and I will try to post them after I get them developed.

[mercmack]

Honda Is The Only One That Dont Have Efi For This Hp Class, Merc, Yamaha, And Suzuki Do...that Would Aliminate The Proplem..:) :)

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Very interesting. Was this motor tested on an SST60 boat or is that an SST45 boat? Just curious because you mentioned the weight of the motor is much heavier than a 2-stroke engine.

[Jakob77]

It was a 45 boat. I would guess it might work better on a 60 boat.

Fuel injection would be nice from a functional stand point. It would probably raise the cost and the complexity and our goal is to avoid that. Fuel injection could possibly split a class into two halves, those that figure out how to trick/re-program the ecm and those who don't. Maybe not though. I could be wrong.

The biggest factor is that Honda was willing to indulge us.

Mark

[Andrew 4CE]

This is cool, a big, "Way to go!" to all involved.

So if this hits your 65mph... how does that compare to competition speeds of a Sport C and 45?

[Jakob77]

I'm not 100% certain, but I guess the competition speed of a SST45 is somewhere around 70mph. Someone who races SST45 could probably clarify...

We were hoping that the current generation of 45 boats would work, but it seems that they won't do the job. They seem to have too much set back on the transom for the Honda motor.

Bruce Borquin was down the other day and expressed some interest in building a Gran Prix boat to properly fit the Honda Motor.

[Andrew 4CE]

So I'm a little lost then (I know nothing about fishing motors)... what's the Ci or CC of this? Not 50ci I guess?

50 4 stroke with a club foot is estimated to only be 5 mph off once setup up on a correct boat and prop from a 45 2 stroke?

On bikes you need about double the cc to keep up with a 2 stroke.

[Andrew 4CE]

Wow, just checked honda website... it's 49.3ci... I'm amazed!

[Jakob77]

Yeah, that's what I was just going to post. 49.3ci 3 cylinder.

We're still lost too. Trial and error, you know.:D

[Ron Hill]

70 MPH in the 45 Series is good speed. The Western Formula Lites Series races on 37 second courses....which I think is a good size for these boats...

If Gran Prix builts a boat for this motor, you can bet it will be close to what is needed. Bruce Borquin's Sport C boats are still doing very well, considering they are almost 20 year old designs....

We run one of Bruce's boat's in 45 and have been doing pretty well, Chad loves the boat.

Let this motor run in Fat "C" (California "C") and run it with Sport C or 45 combined.

65 MPH is a fine speed...

[Jakob77]

Here's a few more pics.

The gear case on the Honda motor has a bit of a nose cone built into it. It's not a round blunt nose like a stock OMC gear case or anything. The water pickups are high, but we didn't have a problem with it yet.

[mercmack]

Does Any One Have A Picture Of The Merc 50/60 4stroke Eng That They Been Running Over Seas The Past Couple Of Years..? If I Remember Right They Showed This Eng Off At One Of The Apba's End Of Year Meetings...may Have Been In The Propeller Mag..it Was A Short Shaft Motor...i Bet French Phil Chould Help Us Out Here..:d :d

[Jakob77]

You think this motor should be made legal for Sport C or 45? Don't you think it would probably smoke the current Sport C boat/motors? And 45 is already quite competitive. I'm sure the 45 guys would not want this in their class.

Personally, I don't believe we should be messing with the current 2 stroke classes, like SST45, SST60, and SST120, and probably Sport C. It seems like the threat of new technology in those classes scares people away, for one reason or another. Our SST120 numbers were a little low this year, and I believe it is because new people are staying away from the 120 class due to concerns and rumors regarding Mercury and the production of the 120 stuff and the pushing of the Optimax. People seem scared to invest the money in 120 equipment for fear of an indefinite amount of time between now and when they are told they must switch to the Optimax. I'm not saying that will or won't happen, but I believe that the uncertainties is hurting SST120.

The thought process here was more of starting a new class for new drivers to start out in. People would be able to buy all new equipment for about the same price as piecing together a good SST45 or SST60 setup. Perhaps some day a class like this would replace the SST45 class when equipment becomes too hard to find and there aren't enough SST45 boats competing any more and people become more comfortable with the 4 strokes.

Maybe a class like this should allow any manufacturers 50ci 4 stroke to run, instead of just being a Honda class, or a Mercury class? Brand competition does everyone some good, as long as they are close to each other.

The other thing I'm quite aware of is the need to have the midsections modified with exhaust relief holes, much like the SST60s have. I no that nobody is interested in watching a silent boat race. So as we move forward with the Honda testing, expect the holesaw to come out.;)

[Ron Hill]

I would give this HONDA its own class, just allow it to run with Sport C, Fat "C" and 45 at the same time. I'd give points if only one boat ran...

Classes shouls be combined so that every heat has 12 boat, and then the flights should be run with two ten lap qualifier, Le Mans starts, and then a 25 lap final....on a 35-40 sconcd course....

These ar my thought for both OPC and KNEELERS...

Truth is, as I se it, Series Racing hasn't hurt local racing, local racing has not figured out why drivers like series racing....

My comment about 65 MPH was that this is a good racing speed, for fun and competition...

[Jakob77]

Seems like it might be a good way to go. I always found 4 classes of racing with 4 boats in each class is no fun to watch. Or drive in.

I guess we'll just see how it all goes!

Mark

[mercmack]

found a picture of a merc 50/60 4 stroke racing at this years 24 hr of Rouen will try to get it up...need help from the wife to do so..if not will be glad to e-mail it to some one that can do it for me..:) :)

[Roy Hodges]

found a picture of a merc 50/60 4 stroke racing at this years 24 hr of Rouen will try to get it up...need help from the wife to do so..if not will be glad to e-mail it to some one that can do it for me..:) :)

send it to me -Roy

[Roy Hodges]

here it is, I hope

[orchy]

With the Honda 4-stroke you said you think you can run 65 mph. Is that during racing or testing with a single boat, because in SST 45 i GPS at 70-75, depending on a 36-45 second course. But that means that while testing on my own i see numbers over 80. Do you know what your trim gauge was reading while you were testing the 4-stroke? looks like it is running nicely trimmed, what does the extra 70 lbs do to the boat ride, cornering etc...?
Dan Orchard 97

[Jakob77]

I hope that 4 stroke Merc went faster than it's going in that picture!

I'm not sure how fast it will go when everything is right. I'm not even sure where this 65mph estimate came from. I know that before we put the log through the boat, it was running 59 mph. The boat is fixed, so if the weather here stays good, we'll probably be back on the water next weekend with it.

The boat with the bigger motor still seems to turn ok, but you can tell it's tail heavy. The biggest thing is that the Honda midsection has a lot more set-back built into it than what the SST45 mid-section does, and that's not helping.

The carb issue is the big problem now. We're waiting to see what Honda will do to help us. We've looked at the float bowl and the inlet to the main jet points to the left side of the motor. It looks like it would be tough to modify.

I know Honda is looking to get fuel injection onto the 50hp engines, but the production engines are a couple of years out, or so. Maybe we can get Honda to put some of the early units into racing for R&D.

[MN1]

Hey Mark,
I do believe the 65 mph is possible with this motor. It will just take more testing and more boat development. Look how long it took 45 to get where it is now.
John was hitting the rev limiter this last weekend and topped out at 58 - 59 mph with my best Sport C prop. With some help from Airmarine, John should be able to reach 60 mph or better with this boat.
Mark N

[Jakob77]

And the boat doesn't seem to be very ideal for the motor.

Mark

[FrenchPhil]

Here's a few.

[spn#43]

Few more

[MN1]

Cool photos! Here's the link to that web page
http://www.futura.pl/galerie2/thumbnails.php?album=55
Some very different boats over there!

How would the Merc compare to the Honda in competition?
Mark N

[Fast Fred]

them 4 strokers look alotabit WET runnin.that 17yr' old 850 Yamaha looks like She is Still havin her way:eek:

[FrenchPhil]

They're definitely *** heavy at 112kgs. The Honda at 89kgs should do better.

[Jakob77]

The other advantage to the Honda is that the driveshaft and the crankshaft are not in line with each other. There is a gear set under the powerhead that moves the powerhead forward a few inches to help transfer the weight of the motor further onto the boat instead of hanging so far back off the transom.

[N80250cch]

I was wondering how far the motor was jacked up. Is the cavitation plate above or below the bottom of the boat.

[MN1]

I don't have the exact measurement but I'm sure the prop shaft was at least even with the bottom of the sponsons. It may have been much higher.
Mark N