Mod Outboard National Meeting Rules

[Ron Hill]

I would like to make a suggestion for the 2008 MOD Commission Meeting.

Any MOD Boat with a "SIT DOWN" driver can us power trim.

If that one won't "FLY". How about legalizing power trim in D and E Mod, if the driver is seated???


I have watched FE Hydro this year, and like the "MOTOR HEAD" part, but the speeds and lay daowns aren't something I am interested in, a cool three banger on a tunnel, might be better than FAT C...



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[Roy Hodges]

[QUOTE=RonHill]I would like to make a suggestion for the 2008 MOD Commission Meeting.

Any MOD Boat with a "SIT DOWN" driver can us power trim.

If that one won't "FLY". How about legalizing power trim in D and E Mod, if the driver is seated???


I have watched FE Hydro this year, and like the "MOTOR HEAD" part, but the speeds and lay daowns aren't something I am interested in, a cool three banger on a tunnel, might be better than FAT C...Quote :
I take that to mean a sitdown tunnel or hydro with a Racing lower unit to include power trim - NO real purpose built race engines ,such as a MOD 50 opc race motor .

[Ron Hill]

I'm not suggesting changing any motor rules, especially when I don't know them...just that IF I wanted to run a sit down in MOD, I could use power trim...

As I am building a 45 KILO Boat, sooner or later, and it will be of litle raceable value after the kilos, each year....But, If I could put a three cyclinder on this kilo boat, maybe, it could double as a Formula E.....

ADD: I don't want to try and rope start any on these outboards....too much work. So, sit down, start motor, go fast, trim down before you blow over...and race.

[Roy Hodges]

It don't have to blow over . My old kusnik boat never blew over, never even felt like it would, why ? Because the nose came DOWN about 4" . NOT straight, like modern hulls, & not UP ,like the original tunnels. & .........It had NO power trim ! it was 13'10" & ran "r" class.............P.S. I like your idea

[bill boyes]

I'm not suggesting changing any motor rules, especially when I don't know them...just that IF I wanted to run a sit down in MOD, I could use power trim...

As I am building a 45 KILO Boat, sooner or later, and it will be of litle raceable value after the kilos, each year....But, If I could put a three cyclinder on this kilo boat, maybe, it could double as a Formula E.....

ADD: I don't want to try and rope start any on these outboards....too much work. So, sit down, start motor, go fast, trim down before you blow over...and race.Most of the OMC 3 cyls use electric start.

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Ron,

Are you suggesting the power trim be on a sit down hydro or tunnel? It is my understanding that tunnels and 3-Point hydros do not mix well. There has been lengthy discussion on this topic at hydroracer. Just thought I'd throw that out.

[Ron Hill]

My 45 kilo boat will be a capsuled hydro.

I also thought Mods could have a tunnel with a tunnel not deeper than 5 inches...(Is this not a run?)

The reason tunnels don't mix with hydros: When I was Commodore of SCOA, I figured out that a Sport E was also a LEGAL 1,100 CC PRO Boat (F Hydro)....Well, a guy named Bobby Gibson started running his Sport E with the F Hydros....Sport E became SST 60....Seems by the end of the season, Bobby was High Point. If he wasn't High Point, he scared the CRAP out of the Pro People, so they did what Boat Racers have ALWAYS done, they ruled tunnels out.

Jay Root from San Diego, took an old Scotti hull, and put a Mercruiser Speedmaster on it with like a 150 Cubic Inch Chevy....When it became clear, he would dominate the 150 Class they passed a rule that drives had to be fixed......(No power trim). Then, when it became clear he'd still win....They (IRC Inboard Commission) decided that a tunnel wasn't safe to run with hydros...

It is like the Japanese...They don't allow the import of US Snow Skiis, because our skiis are so fast, they are DANGEROUS....

Back when I ran PRO, I'd step my Konig D up to F, after winning the Winternationals (Again) in FRR and FRH, the Pro Commision decided that an F had to be more than 40 cubic inches....meaning, I could no longer run my SMALL "D" and a BIG "F".... This rule worked very well. I sold my Konig C and D, and quit PRO racing....

Joe, I learned a long time ago, to do as I wanted in Boat Racing....I wrote MOD VP's rules, Parker's rules, since 1973, Mod 100, Sport C, C-Nod....I got Stock Blocks in "D" to replace 55-H bocks, I got Mercury to build the 402 XS...and to make spare parts for Mercury gearcases...


But.......rules get changed by the drivers, not someone who wants the sport to grow.... A 302 Yamato costs $2,000 stock OUT OF THE BOX...but in a Stock Outboard class, Division, you have to spend over $500 on this new Stock motor's foot, $500 on the powerhead, $100 ON THE GAS TANK..NOW, YOU HAVE A $3,000 MOTOR FOR A bEGINNER???? Who figured out this CONCEPT???? No one can measure a STOCK MOtor and keep it stock out of the box?????

I'd bet that a stock 302, if you ran an out of the box motor, you'd be so slow, you'd be a danger to the leaders when they lapped you...We have no ENTRY LEVEL CLASS IN APBA.....We always want NEW PEOPLE IN BOAT RACING.....So, we have someone to beat...

When Rod Zapf wrecked his old 280, he and Bill Boyes built a new 280, somewhat like an OUTBOARD hydo...The first race back, ROD RAN LAST AND ALL 19 DRIVERS IN THE CLASS CAME AND TOLD HIM HOW MUCH THEY LIKED HAVING HIM BACK. By the end of the year, when he'd won about 8 staight races, thse same guys proTested his engine....What am I saying??? I'm saying hard word, innovation and desire isn't really rewarded......I'd like to think things like the NET could change that...becasue many of these "RULES" were back door, late night decisions.... Good Officials are also important....and Officials should be paid....Can't afford o pay for GOOD OFFICIALS, don't have a race......

I wrote the rules for 20 SS Hydro and 20SSR. I worked closely with Tom Ige to promote the Yamato. East of the MISSISSIPPI RACING fought us tooth and nails. They SCREWED the 20SS RUnabout class, our second largest class in California, by combining it with B Runabout..The 20-H can and will kick *** on the 20 Yamato...but where could you get parts for 20-H?

Very few people ever get into APBA POLITICS without looking out fo themselves. Few run for politics to REALLY PROMOTE BOAT RACING.....

We just had a race, 300 miles long....we ran Mod VP's (Basically Tri Hulls), V-Hull Outboards, Tunnel inboards, V-Drive Inboards, Twin Engine sterndrives, and single engine sterndrives.....and a Cracker Box and a 16 foot Glastron. (We had fishing motors, racing outboards, turbo charged motors, super charged motors..injected motors..) We had NO ACCIDENTS....We had handicap starts, like SAIL BOATS, and I'd bet that 38 of the 40 boats thought they were going to win...

I know that THE PEOPLE RACING NOW probably won't change. My goals, when Ted and I started this web page was to have an Encyclopedia and SAVE A SPORT...(There is very little GRASS ROOT RACING, AOF seems to be making progress.....)....My e-mails are down to 35 a day right now, but in the summer I get 150 per day....I'd bet 20 are related to SMALL BOATS (Racing and River Racers). There is grass roots DESIRE........but getting into any racing class is so complicated, people give up....Races like Parker, where you Run What You Brung" use to be everywhere..but Parker is on the only race of its kind now... There is NO SMALL BOAT RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG RACING....

Half the kneeldown, laydown classes should be combined....and raced together with seperate points....but no, people want three boat races, so they can win five classes....NBRA runs all classes together....

Tunnels can run with hydros and I'd bet there is no documented case of a hydro/tunnel accident....

Saftey is in the THROTTLE and OFFICIALS.......When you run fast boats with slow boats, the slow boats learn to stay out of the way of the fast boats, and th fast boats learn to stay out of the way of the slow boats...THINKING WORKS, if given a chance!

WELL, I FEEL BETTER!!!!

[Roy Hodges]

Ron,

Are you suggesting the power trim be on a sit down hydro or tunnel? It is my understanding that tunnels and 3-Point hydros do not mix well. There has been lengthy discussion on this topic at hydroracer. Just thought I'd throw that out.
Evidentally these guys never saw a race back when the "R" class was dominated by two boats, kusnik's tunnel, AND MOST of all, Mike Schnell's "midnight Oil" -a ron Jones Cab over hydro. They got along fine . I was at the 1976 O. P. C. Nationals .... when Mod 50 was won by a HYDRO, driven , i think ,by Bob Herring ,the only hydro entered against all the other boats , which were tunnels.

[Ron Hill]

Lee Sutter, not Bobby Herring, won Mod 50 Natonals,at Dayton, Ohio, 1976...with a Marchetti Hydro.....pretty much a NEW 55-H Mid Section, with a Stock 44 powerhead....anyone but a Sutter...or Bobby Herring would have gone "SPLAT" as it was rough in Dayton, Ohio.. and Sutter didn't have the engine bolted down, so after the third lap, in the first heat, his motor kept tilting up at the corners. Between heats, I tightened the motor down like hell, tied the motor down with as much rope as I could find...Then drove nails in the slots in the clap brackets, where bolts SHOULD have gone....Sutter spen most of the time between heats tiring to catch his breath.....and not hyperventilate...as he knew he cold win, if he didn't go splat... I told Sutter to just get a good start, that he had it made....

After Lee won the second heat, I went and helped John Rinker back in and helped him off the trailer......(I was on my way home from the Stock Nationals in Hinton, West Virginia...is why I was in Dayton).. (Sutter and John were the only two boat racers I really knew at Dayton in 1976, well I knew Joe Burgess, but I didn't help him)....I forget, but seems John Rinker lead to the first turn, almost, then "Blew Over" and broke his back....As I was leaving Dayton, I was thinking about Sutter and Rinker, I decided we needed to be seated in those OPC boats, and use trim....(Capusles had not been invented, yet)...

Keep in mind, Sutter could have won with a tunnel, too!! Sutter was one of th best drivers in OUTBOARD RACING's history!!

[Roy Hodges]

Lee Sutter won Mod 50 with a Marchetti Hydro.....pretty much a NEW 55-H Mid Section, with a Stock 44 powerhead....anyone but a Sutter...or Bobby Herring would have gone "SPLAT" as it was rough in Dayton, Ohio.. and Sutter didn't have the engine bolted down, so after the third lap, in the first heat, his motor kept tilting up at the corners. Between heats, I tightened the motor down like hell, tied the motor down with as much rope as I could find...Then drove nails in the slots in the clap brackets, where bolts SHOULD have gone....Sutter spen most of the time between heats tiring to catch his breath.....and not hyperventilate...as he knew he cold win, if he didn't dump
The powerhead was a MOD 50 Merc (3 carbs -1/2 of a t2X)on a tower made of sheet steel, or stainless steel, and a "D" quickie, changed after each heat , the mod 50- powerhead chews up D quickie units , post haste .( are you talking about 1976 ?) P S : Tom Ireland told the O M C guys , if that hydro gets out in front , it will win , (it did )

[Ron Hill]

You are right..the tower was like a Levindusky....Merc clamps, and saddle...If you were helping change the foot, we must have been working together...as I recall, they ran back to back heats....I was thinking it was just a 44...but it was a three cyclinder...blue decked Marchetti...I think i the prop was a bored out BU Mark 20-H prop....

When Jimbo and Renato had Mod 50 Molinari's...they go with anything and in chop they'd really o!

[Roy Hodges]

You are right..the tower was like a Levindusky....Merc clamps, and saddle...If you were helping change the foot, we must have been working together...as I recall, they ran back to back heats....I was thinking it was just a 44...but it was a three cyclinder...blue decked Marchetti...I think i the prop was a bored out BU Mark 20-H prop....

When Jimbo and Renato had Mod 50 Molinari's...they go with anything and in chop they'd really o!-
The prop-you mentioned , I forgot ,until now- I heard one of the crew showing it to a guy from Michigan wheels- the (crew) guy said " it's one of yours (michigan) . the michigan guy says " can't be ,we don't make 3 blades quickee props. the crew guy sez "well, we cut 2( the hubs of ) props and welded them together ,to make a 3 blade . "

[Ron Hill]

At Hinton West Virginia, the Stocks had like 500 entries, and Vern Kargus won BSH with a three blade...When I found that out, I said what are the odds of one three blade in 12 BSH being fast??? Three blades must be better...

It was Lee Sutter, at Dayton that told me to weld two Michigan's together to make a three blade.

When I returned from Dayton, I got with Pop Smith and we JOINT VENTURED some three blades. Pop made the blanks, I had Phil Carakoff, in Costa Mesa, CA weld the two blades into three blades. Then, I had molds made from these blanks....The props were wleded together perfectly, by a guy named , Les, who now owns Carakoff's old shop....Funny, I see him now and then, and to this day, he swears he can't remember how he figured out how to weld them so well...

Pop Smith got casting from me for years...Later, Roy Miner bought casting too...as Roy had much of Pop's stuff...

I had forgotten where Sutter told me, I had remembered Lee tell me that I could weld two together to make a three blade, but I was thinking it was in Beloit.....Wisconsin, but the time I was thinking I talked to Lee, in Beloit, I had already been making three blades....

The three blade prop probably helped Lee's control in that MOD 50, though he had very little....

Thanks for reminding me....and thanks for the story....

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Ron,

The reason why I brought this up was that I was thinking of designing a kneeldown shallow tunnel boat a year ago. My thought was that it would handle the rough water better than a 3-Point hydro, which would allow us to race in places that would otherwise be to rough. Also, it would allow us to race at current race sites no matter how rough the water got. I was thinking of designing the boat so the sponsons would maintain their standard depth but simply carry all the way back to the transom. Keep the engines fixed to the transom without trim, etc... I was told that this type of boat would not mix well with 3-point hydros, eccentually being dangerous. Many people eluded to the pro category when the Russians, and other Europeans came to the U.S. with tunnel boats and raced the worlds. Apparently, the mixture of the two different types of hulls was dangerous. With all of this being said, I scraped my ideas and forgot about my ideas.

Hats off to you for always being inovative and genually wanting the sport to grow by thinking outside of the box.

[Ron Hill]

See..EVEN a small propeller business needs full time management.... hen I go racing, no one lists propellers, no one works on old molds, no one works on new molds....no one ships, no one plans ahead for cars burning up....so we get behind....


The truth is, in the 1970's. my dad basically worked full time to promote Boat Racing, in SoCal. (When I went into MOD VP racing, 1979, SCOA had $20,000 in "T" Bills and $10,000 in their checking account. My dad built engines for everyone and he did it a a low cost. He inspected at ALL LOCAL RACES he worked, just like it was a NATIONALS. He made sure the patrol boat race, the clock worked the scales were there, and we had enough bouys...I went into MOD VP becasue you could buy a new 235 Evinrude, fishing motor and an Eliminator Daytona for the same price of owning 2 Mark 30-H's, 2-55-H's and three boats and trailer...And MOD VP were racing 100 mile races in open water...four hour races at HAvasu and 7 hour races at Parker...(What happened...No one managed the business...except a coule of outboard motor COMPANIES that looked out for themselves..DUH!!!!)...

The 36 Class guys all worked tirelessly for the CLUB.....not really for Boat Racing...we had a CLUB..... We had a season and we had a group that came to race.

I was either Race Chairman, Editor, Commodore or....Region Chairman....

Kids came along....things change.... We lost many, many race sites BECAUSE our boats could not run where the water had any chop on it...Rather than embracing STOCK MOTORS like the 36 Chrysler....The VOTERS in STOCK OUTBOARDS Kicked the 36 class out of Stock.....Bigger boats on the lakes and river made it hard to find a place to race that wasn't, like Salt Springs, an hour from a town...

Rules got changed with who in mind??? When did kneeldown boat quit floating if you try to crank the motor?? Where did the sides go on runabouts??? Greg Foster's son wanted to race J Runabout, until I told Greg the damn boats, the way they are designed, will turn over in the current of the Colorado River.....We have a Kid's class where the boat turns over when the motor isn't running???

You have runabout with no side, so now everyone has to buy $1,000 Kelvar suit so they MIGHT NOT GET CUT AS BAD as if they wore levi pants??? Why not make the rule for BIG, BIG REINFORCED COCKPITS and COCK PITSIDES....??? Who passed the rule that a RUNABOUT NOSE LOOKS LIKE A NEEDLE???

If my dad saw half of today's runabouts, HE'D take a saw to them before he let them on the lake...He's saw a foot off them...

My GOAL is to CHANGE THINGS, not change the people who race now....C STOCK hydro gain 10% a year and loses 10%, ABOUT ANYWAY......hOW AND WHY???

The HEART of California Boat Racing in Region 12 is Cracker Box.....(Basically a local class).... GN, (Basically a local class) Super Stock Flat Bottoms (A National class but 80-90 per cent, are SoCAL boats)....45 SS is the main outboard class....and with our series rules we get half National points, as Saturday is counted as a qualifier...

NorCal has a group of Sport C racers that CARRY ($$$) MOST OF THE RACES....OPC TIRED HARD to drop thm as a NATIONAL CLASS....

Look at the SOLAR Boats... 36 showed at their Nationals..... No state had over three boats, so with that in mind they should be DROPPED as a National Class???? Everyone of the 36 boat is a new boat built for the year.... Name me a class in APBA that gets 36 new boats a year??? We could...we just don't think OUTSIDE THE BOX....


What should be done to GROW BOAT RACING would be to hire a MANAGER with a 5 year contract........If the APBA members DIDN'T LIKE HIM, IN FIVE YEARS THEY COULD FIRE HIM OR THEY COULD RACE AOF...

If you look at Region 12's schedule, only three races aren't promoted by RPM Racing (Ross Wallach).....Ross is MANAGING Boat Racing in SoCal...not full time...but almost full time and our racing has been really good in 2006.

Joe, why not come to California and teach, I'll PM you a salary schedule....you could join one of the 1,700 that move to California daily!! (Legally)....


Everyone wants to see boat racing grow, but they want the other classes to have changes...not my class... I support 400 classes. I just want to see every heat have 12-16 boats (GROUPS OF CLASSES)......and these groups run two, ten lap qualifiers and then, these GROUPS run a a 20-25 lap main...Score all 44 classes seperately for NATIONAL POINTS, giv points for laps completed and boats beat.

[Roy Hodges]

try for a formula e tunnel class (in modified outboards ) -sit down w/power trim , that would be an open to any hull class - just because the hydro boys shun tunnels, we don't have to be snobbish to them , do we ?

[Ron Hill]

Considering, Formula E started in Region 11, didn't it???

Super E Tunnel or Super E Racing...

[Roy Hodges]

Considering, Formula E started in Region 11, didn't it???

Super E Tunnel or Super E Racing...
Yes, i believe that Lon Stevens might have started it, i think he wrote the ORIGINAL rules , back in early 1970's. I think it included 60 c.i. merc MK75's, I KNOW that was his intentions.

[Ron Hill]

Lon is 91, living in Florida and building a couple of "C" Service motors, I hear, for 2007 DePue...

Seems like Ron Davies would remember. Didn't he race and win a bunch of Formula E stuff??

[Roy Hodges]

Lon is 91, living in Florida and building a couple of "C" Service motors, I hear, for 2007 DePue...Yes, I was at Rich Fuchlins SHOP a few weeks ago, getting photos of his Stevens Mercs with aux carbs to send to Wolfgang (down in South Africa ) and , Rich told me about Lon Moving to Florida .

Seems like Ron Davies would remember. Didn't he race and win a bunch of Formula E stuff?? This I cannot comment on , as i have no knowledge of this . I vaguely remember his name, but that's all .

[David_L6]

...... I don't want to try and rope start any on these outboards....too much work. So, sit down, start motor, go fast, trim down before you blow over...and race.


Here's just the class for you Ron. ;)

[Ron Hill]

Our Tahtosu 30's on 9 foot Addictgors, with ALUMINUM PROPS, my 235 body with jacket, helmet and full upholdery...I could run 42 MPH and I could run in the ocean, through the middle of Havasu.....anywhere....

A Merc Cub would go about 30 MPH, and turn over in smooth water going straight. The boat was too narrow and the sponsons were too deep in the front..... These boats were built by Betty Cook, but not for long...


But, and introductory CLASS is needed and needs to be supported thanks for the posts....as always...Thanks for the $$ on the Jmbo contest...

[David Mason]

Yes, i believe that Lon Stevens might have started it, i think he wrote the ORIGINAL rules , back in early 1970's. I think it included 60 c.i. merc MK75's, I KNOW that was his intentions.

I think it was Lyle Mason and Harry Brinkman working together to create Formula E in the Mod division of APBA back in the early 70's. I know dad talks about writing the rules with Harry often enough. Lots of rules have changed in the class since they wrote them, hence why they are a lot faster today than yesterday.