Niel Bass's Post From Hydroracer...

[Ron Hill]

Spectators become Racers!
<HR style="COLOR: #000000" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Boat racing is definitely not a spectator’s sport the way it is currently run. I drove a 160HP small jet ski this summer. It accelerated to 60 MPH so fast you had to hang on real tight. That is the sort of experience our potential spectators have become accustomed to. The following is some comments and suggestions, not in any priority order.

1. Make the course shorter for the slower classes. A 40 MPH rid does not look very impressive on a course that is adequate for a 100 MPH ride. This would make the boats look faster while actually slowing down the top end and would make drivers drive.
2. Spectators will often ask, “Are they racing yet?” Often the competition is spread all over the course at the start, the start flag cannot be seen from the spectator vantage point, and there is little competition. Initiate some more spectator enhanced starts. Could be a flagged start when all boats are nearly even at the start, maybe a lead boat to start the class as in NASCAR, draw lanes and re-order for heat 2, maybe a lemons start, anything to bring the competition together.
3. Combine classes so there are never less than six boats. This would speed up the day and would make the race more interesting. Running six heats of what appears to be C-stock is boring!
4. Run three heats of the fast boats, spread throughout the day.
5. Provide a good announcer that knows and explains the classes.
6. Identify a driver, boat number and location in the pit where spectators can ask questions and discuss issues with a driver from that class.

I am sure there are lots more ideas, let’s hear them.

Neil Bass


Great idea, Neil...I want to add to them, but not tonight...

[smittythewelder]

I think the clock start is by far the most dramatic and interesting of starting methods, but Neil is right that it has no drama for spectators when they can't see that clock, don't know the flags, don't know whether the countdown has started, aren't hearing any clear announcing of the event, and so on. I'd hate to see the clock start replaced by flags, pace-boats, or beach starts without some thought going into making the clock start accessible to spectators.

[Skoontz]

There is a very easy and simple way to do this. Just as at the drag races they place lights at 90° positions on the Christmas Tree so the fans at the starting line seats can see the thing, you take a Zodiac or similar floating device and place a deep cycle battery operated clock with remote control at the start/finish line. I have remote controls in our crew trucks that will reprogram our clients irrigation clocks 3 miles away at a restaruant, so, the judges could set, start, stop and run the clock all from remote for a nominal fee. I was kind of dissappointed at the thunderboat races this year that from the awesome spot we were at to watch the race, the clock faced the boats and I could not see it. Then you get 6-7 wishers screaming by you and you can't hear the cannon. So, you set it up on 90° view positions, you do a big sweep hand and call it a day.

Next, from a mechanic/specators view, not a driver, you will never ever promote boat racing like NASCAR unless you get a more diverse factory participation. Boat manufacturers, trailers, engines ETC. And Jap crap in my opinon does not belong on our race circuits, however, since OMC is defunct and Bombardier is slow to jump on the race band wagon, it does not leave anyone with much choice, hence, I swallow my words and beliefs to allow Jap crap because there is only one engine builder in the US who wants to particpate.

Third, money. I have long said that with factory wars that went on, the plain commoner had two choices. Be broke and race, or somehow by the grace of God get a factory sponsorship and be able to afford a peanut butter and pickle sandwich every lunch. NASCAR/CART and F-1 car drivers are of the highest paid professional athletes, rightfully so. Boat owner/drivers cannot continue driving $100,000 rigs to win $300.00 a Sunday.

Fourth, new blood into the sport. I'm grinding some ideas around, for example, I once thougt creating a money purse for winning 1-2-3, or leading the most laps in an A, AFX or J hydro race....After talking a bunch to Jeff Connant (sp) how about this....A $2,000.00 college scholarship for 1st, 1,000 for second, and $500.00 for third, with tow money placed on a gas card....That way other regions won't just show for the money, and, a college scholarship does not do an older drvier alot of good. You want NEW drivers...

5th, and this refers to the great golden state of fruits and nuts...We got to get these leftus evironmental nazi rulers out of the legislature. To ban outboard motors and racing from perfectly good lakes and waterways is Draconian, Nazillike and Marxist all wrapped into one. In essence, when I have a great lake like Hodges 4 miles from my house, and some nit wits laws force me to drive 3 hours to Lake Ming, or 5 hours to Needles to boat, that takes alot of the fun out of the sport. Sure we got Mission Bay, but, the hours would be restricted until the point when the bigger boats make the water rough.....

So, just a few thoughts from an outsider who will soon be an insider.....

[John Howe]

I agree with the smaller classes on a smaller course. I used to watch 48 cubic inch inboard hydro`s run on a 1 2/3 mile course. It just didn`t have the appeal as a supercharged big block hydro on the same course. I know the 48 inch drivers were having the time of there lives out there on the big course, but it just didn`t have the visual appeal for the spectators. I once suggested at a pre-race meeting about setting up a small course for the smaller boats within the big course, ...and came about this >< close to being lynched by the small boat crews.

As far as the fans and flags, well, I `ve some ideas there too. I`ve seen a couple "kneeler" races this year and at those races one of the infield tow boats carried a set of flags. At the start, the tow boat was positioned across the start line and flagged the race. This gave everyone on the beach a great view of the flags. There were flags and the clock still located on the beach. Also, a simple photocopied black and white on plain paper hand out with rules, flags, class explaination, ..ect., could be handed out as spectators enter the race site. Fifty bucks would get you several thousand copies.

As far as mixed classes, well, I`m luke warm on that idea. Yeah, a few boats usually is pretty boring to watch unless a couple of them are running on the edge side by side. The problem with a mixed class is all to often it becomes the old Abott & Costello routine of "Who`s in first, What`s in second". I`ve been to a couple offshore races where it`s a mixed bag of classes and it does get confusing to most spectators.

On a side note, back in the 80`s I used to handle the clock and flags for the now defunct Florida Inboard Racing Club. Every year back then the Unlimited`s would race here in Miami. Steve David, now the driver for the Oh Boy Oberto U-boat, was just getting started in Unlimiteds. Steve had a ride back then in a 3rd rate hull and had picked up a sponsorship from a local strip joint. Sunday, the strip joint had a bunch of girls onsite and they were parading in really skimpy bikini`s. Just before the final Unlimited race, I rounded up the girls and easily talked them into doing the flags for the final heat. I was of course sitting right there with them and told them which flag was needed when. I also made it clear if I had to take over for an emergency, that they would have sit down. The camera`s, the crowd, and strip joint owner, just "ate it up"! No, I didn`t consult the race committee beforehand about my idea. The referee was on the radio trying to yell at me, but he was having a hard time holding back his laughter. I was indeed rewarded by the strip joint. :D

[David Mason]

At the NBRA races in IL I see they run a two sidded clock. In other words, the clock has two faces. One faces the 3rd and fourth turn from where the boats start the other towards the first turn. This not only aids the spectator, but the racer as well. A lot of times we are caught past the starting line when the one minute gun is fired. I for one kept an eye on the clock while in the first turn area to make sure I was where I wanted to be for position. The spectators beyond the clock could see the clock from behind if they were linning the shore line.

Also helped my parents yell at me when I was close on a start because they could see from the pits how close I was.... over...... As mom always said, If I say I was close when I come in I jumped.... hehehehe.

On a side note, John Howe, I bet you had every guys attention in the place with those girls !! Wish the kneelers could get that !!!

[smittythewelder]

Neal quotes spectators asking, "Are they racing yet?," something I have heard as well.

Part of this confusion comes from the semi-hidden clock (that 2-faced clock is a great idea, and maybe 2-face or multi-face or separate, synchronized clocks ought to be mandated by APBA (with a couple of years lead-time for the clubs to build them). There surely is enough engineering and fabricating talent to come up with a design and a set of plans so that each club doesn't have to re-invent the wheel to build a crowd-friendly clock or clocks.

Part of it comes from not knowing the flags. That could be addressed with a simple handed-out flyer or brochure that would also carry the season race schedule and other info.

Part of it comes from the fact that the voices on the public address systems at our races are unmistakably amateurish and untrained, and seem to be talking as much to their pals in the pits as to our visitors. Local clubs could hardly pay for outside professionals (who wouldn't know anything about racing, anyway), but possibly a night class in broadcast voice-training and technique could be funded for an ex-racer or two . . . .

But, finally, part of the spectator confusion comes from the fact that at Stock/Mod/PRO races, each class is only actually racing about half the time it is on the lake. We (this is an editorial "we"; I haven't been in a raceboat in decades) turn laps at varying speeds, in apparent disorder, for three to five minutes, race for a few laps, then take a lap or so before clearing the course.
From the spectators' standpoint, that's not much bang for the buck (and many outboarders agree, and go on to karting or cars or motorcycles where they might run 15-25 laps at a time). Ignition systems are so good now that nobody should need more than a three-minute gun. And if the number of classes at any given race were restricted somewhat, heats could be at least five laps (maybe three laps for the slowest classes).

[Mark75H]

I have toyed with the idea of a digital/analog clock. Solid state controlled analog display that could also be used as a judge's stand flag.

Like some of the old mechanical clocks that changed from black to white, a large disk that changes from red to white with super bright LED's and maybe a top mounted white strobe for extra attention at one minute, 30 seconds and zero. Maybe switching to green after zero and back to white for the last lap. A computer controlled clock like this could have as many faces (all synched together) as a club could afford. The clock could also switch back to all red or red flashing to indicate a stopped race.

Regions 3 and 4 have 2 very good announcers in Scott Glossner and Bill Huson who are very easy on the ear, repeat the start and flag information over and over all day, but that doesn't seem to be a factor in crowd attendance or crowd race knowledge.

Some years Stock outboard has had a schedule handout just as you describe; I've passed them around before and at races.

Some of our race sites have such small pits it is not possible to stage and start 12 boats at once; 3 minutes isn't always enough, but at most sites we use 3 minutes or - to speed things up - 90 seconds after the last boat leaves the pits.

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Without going into to much detail, and this has been said before in other threads, the sport of outboard racing is not set-up to be a spectator sport. Sure, us boat racers enjoy watching the races, but for most people, non-racers, the sport is confusing. An easy solution to make the sport more spectator friendly is to limit the amount of classes raced in a day, the racing becomes to confusing when there are so many classes on the water that appear to go the same speed, and get rid of the clock start and go with the le-mans start. If you watch dirt bike racing, PWC racing or European outboard racing, all of them use the le-mans start and it is very exciting. Not to mention there wouldn't be the need for a club to have to fuss with all of the mechanics of the judges stand. That would be nice. :)

[Skoontz]

Cutting certain classes on Sunday's is EXACTLY what they do at Pomona to ensure a good audience review. For example, they used to run those stupid computerized bracket cars as fillers between top fuel and alky heats....They got rid of them thank God, who wants to see an 8 second car scream out of the hole on two wheels, then the computer kicks in, the engine dies and comes back up after it calculated (digtitally) that the car would break out....

So, limit to the most exciting classes on Sunday, run the less exciting on Saturday and Fridays....And or, run the lessor exciting classes at a different body of water to allow more in the more exicitng classes...

But I still come back to money. It takes money to run, and good money needs to be paid to win and place....

[Mark75H]

NBRA has not had the best results with money as the main incentive. They had at least one very well advertized, well organized race this year with an absolute jackpot of cash put up by a sponsor and the polite way to put it would be that the turnout was disappointing

[Skoontz]

Let me add a tad, Sam. Money, along with widley known sponsors for boats, sponsors who would not necessarliy need to lat out 2mm a year for a name across a boat deck, but, just get their name out, then do a focus study to find out what audiences knew about the sponsors and then the moeny would come. That's how NASCAR did it over a period of 15 years and then over another 10 years the commericalizm grew to the next level.

People see a boat or motor, they need to be able to relate to the brand on the boat, and they need to connect with the personality behind the wheel. As all this comes together, that's when crowd sizes will grow, at least in theory.

To do this we would need to see trailer, boat, and engine manufacturers dedicate time and effort even more so than they have been doing. The facotry wars of OMC/Brunswick was a classic example. Everyone rooted for their engines, and drivers. Right now, you got Mercury, period. So, Bombardier needs to get on it, as does, Yamaha, and other engines from the land of the rising sun even more so than what they may or may not be doing now. Oil manufacturers could join in to stop the idiocy presented by the USEPA regarding 2 cycle engines. Only after the money comes.....NASCAR is the only large auto racing organization that ignore the leftus geniouses cry to run unleaded fuels, why???? The money funneled into various political issues overrides unsupported spewage from tree huggers....

So, it's money, sponsorships, and, brand names, along with team participation and I think it will come around, at least in theory.

[Roy Hodges]

That you are saying (in so many words) it's O P C ; or forget it. well, most of us are not money bags, and sponsor ship ONLY comes after a lot of winning. SO, where does that leave a (would be ) beginner ? NO where . I guess the rest of us have NO right to even think of some cheap racing ? Those of us who would like to race , even with no prize money , just a ribbon and a cheap entry fee? A lot of us could care less about national glory & points. Some of us would like to avoid the apba & have something like the good ole C C R A , before they went apba . when they joined , the membership plummeted , ask any old timer .

[JohnsonM50]

That you are saying (in so many words) it's O P C ; or forget it. well, most of us are not money bags, and sponsor ship ONLY comes after a lot of winning. SO, where does that leave a (would be ) beginner ? NO where . I guess the rest of us have NO right to even think of some cheap racing ? Those of us who would like to race , even with no prize money , just a ribbon and a cheap entry fee? A lot of us could care less about national glory & points. Some of us would like to avoid the apba & have something like the good ole C C R A , before they went apba . when they joined , the membership plummeted , ask any old timer .

I agree Roy, To a guy supporting a family a used rig or 2 & equipment are a bit of change then the ongoing cost of being there and the time out from work, [Friday testing & travel] make it difficult if possible. I might be a wanna be for some time.

[Skoontz]

Roy:

I completely agree with you and have said for years that the money in racing has taken alot of the grass roots effort and fun out of it. I was however, refering to Ron and some others hopes/dreams to make boat racing as big as NASCAR. That's where the money comes in unfortunately. To get fan participation in the numbers it would take to achieve such a dream, there must be a show worth spending time on/at and paying the price. I don't see the growth at this stage of the game without the money, sponsors, and factories all jumping in in a much greater effort than they ever have in the past. That's all I'm saying.

[JohnsonM50]

Roy:

I completely agree with you and have said for years that the money in racing has taken alot of the grass roots effort and fun out of it. I was however, refering to Ron and some others hopes/dreams to make boat racing as big as NASCAR. That's where the money comes in unfortunately. To get fan participation in the numbers it would take to achieve such a dream, there must be a show worth spending time on/at and paying the price. I don't see the growth at this stage of the game without the money, sponsors, and factories all jumping in in a much greater effort than they ever have in the past. That's all I'm saying.
Or go the route of the Japanese and gamble on them, an instant massive fan base. LOL

[Skoontz]

That's not such a bad thing. Though I never have gambled in my life. even when I go to Vegas I do the shows and laugh at all the geniouses loosing their shirts....But, why not bet on boat races? I'm gunna gamble this and say I'll betcha there have been large Vegas lines for heavily promoted races, so why not??? Man it's hard enough findiong water to ruin on around here, I can just hear the politics of that propostion!

[Roy Hodges]

That's not such a bad thing. Though I never have gambled in my life. even when I go to Vegas I do the shows and laugh at all the geniouses loosing their shirts....But, why not bet on boat races? I'm gunna gamble this and say I'll betcha there have been large Vegas lines for heavily promoted races, so why not??? Man it's hard enough findiong water to ruin on around here, I can just hear the politics of that propostion!-
You're right ,about big time. Boat Racing will never be big ,not like Nascar, not like any major sport. And, if it WAS to get there ,it'd have to be tied to major CAR manufacturers, with INBOARD engines, big and Noisy (like sprint cars /"Stock "cars) - Can't see that happening now, or it would have already happened YEARS ago..... SORRY. We know everybody needs a car, but we don't really "NEED" a boat . (just the boaters & us wannabees )

[Mark75H]

Well stated Richard

Firebird Lake/car race track ... the only one I can think of

[Jack 38 M]

I have promoted a few races and one of the worst things we do is we race all day long. an ideal race would be about 3 hours. So now who are we going to cut out ? because we have been and still are a drivers organization we will never be able to create an excting race. Randy Hippler was a great announcer. he provided facts about the drivers and no dead air.
The races need to be run off quickly no dead spots. people don't want to know why no one is on the water they will leave .
The races need to have some thing to build on make it a show make it excitng and make it drama.
I am sure many disagree but the truth hurts

Jack 38 M Retired

[Ron Hill]

We raced for 39 straight weeks in the winter for 1955-56. We drew better rating than the Rams. We were the number one rated show on TV...

We had only three classes a weekend. We had time trials before the "Official" races started. First heat out was a TROPHY DASH with inverted starts.

Between each heat, Ted May and Mercury Maniacs kept the crowd on their feet with their CRAZINESS...includinging running a boat on to the rocky shoreline...at least once a weekend.

Besides the Mercury Maniacs, we had "SINK THE CHAMP" which was two guys trying to knock each other off water skis, using toilet plungers....

Dick Lane, the announcer, loved boat racing, and he enterviewed each winner after each heat...YOU win, you got a trophy on TV...INSTANT rewards!!!

After the races, on the way home we'd wave to our fans...We were as popular as Ricky Nelson...

I was only 11, and wasn't in charge of the racing... but they had a good PLAN...the racers had other ideas. They didn't like racing at the same place...I mean they wanted to race at San Diego and Needles...not the same lake week after week!!! BUt, boat racing grew during the TV years like CRAZY!!!!

Shorters race schedule..repeat locations are important..There are places, like Janesville, Wisconsin, where you could race every week, during the summer,on the Rock River...but one problem with Wisconsin is that everyone has moved to Californina....

We can race at Carlsbad, California but no one is promoting it...let Ross do it...WOA raced at Carlsbad for probably 15 years, always in December...A December race in Carlsbad, today, would be nice...but you need racers.... Right now, SCSC has a bout six races a year...and most racers have a hard time making all of them...

FORMULA ONE PROP TOUR had a good plan...His racers wanted to run the SERIES....Basiclly, that is what happened to TV racing... Who runs NASCAR???? BILL FRANCE'S FAMILY!!!! The racers have little in put!!!

[Roy Hodges]

anybody out there remember AL Estel ? (hope i spelled his name right ) he announced every kind of boat racing there was , i think , in northern california , and UNLIMITEDS in Lake Tahoe , too. this guy knew racing, (i think he was an ole time racer , himself. He could fill a lull time, at least I thought he could . I'm thinkin he had raced against the likes of Charlie Strang, Chiz,Lon Stevens,Bud Wiget&Jack BIAGO , ...Al was a cool guy

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Ron makes a good point about shorter race courses. We raced on a shorter than normal race course last summer due to wind making the lake very rough. The result, action all over the race course. There were a decent number of fans on the shore and the feed back was that they enjoyed the races. Now, to race on a shorter course every weekend would be ideal, it makes the day a little shorter and more exciting for the fans, but getting drivers to agree to this is another factor or hurdle to overcome. I for one like atleast a variety of course types. I enjoyed the shorter course.

I guess the first and biggest question in my mind is who do we want to tailor the sport to, the racers or the fans, which we rarely have much of. We are a grass roots type of racing, atleat the stock and mod outboards. Do we really want to be big time like nascar and the likes. I personally don't think so. If I want to race boats on a bigger stage then I'd race OPC or inboards, etc... I enjoy the grass roots type of racing and do not feel the need to make stock and mod outboard big time. Sure, I'd like to see our race day shorter and our race schedule more streamlined, but that does not make it big time. I'm not sure why so many feel the need to make this grass roots type of racing big time. Just my opionion.

[mercguy]

Ron makes a good point about shorter race courses. We raced on a shorter than normal race course last summer due to wind making the lake very rough. The result, action all over the race course. There were a decent number of fans on the shore and the feed back was that they enjoyed the races. Now, to race on a shorter course every weekend would be ideal, it makes the day a little shorter and more exciting for the fans, but getting drivers to agree to this is another factor or hurdle to overcome. I for one like atleast a variety of course types. I enjoyed the shorter course.

I guess the first and biggest question in my mind is who do we want to tailor the sport to, the racers or the fans, which we rarely have much of. We are a grass roots type of racing, atleat the stock and mod outboards. Do we really want to be big time like nascar and the likes. I personally don't think so. If I want to race boats on a bigger stage then I'd race OPC or inboards, etc... I enjoy the grass roots type of racing and do not feel the need to make stock and mod outboard big time. Sure, I'd like to see our race day shorter and our race schedule more streamlined, but that does not make it big time. I'm not sure why so many feel the need to make this grass roots type of racing big time. Just my opionion.



Joe, these are my thoughts exactly!!! With all these ideas of trying to make stock/mod boat racing a "big time publisized" sport, it makes me laugh. Bringing prize money into the game does not help at all, in fact, it could make it worse, as the driving could get ALOT more cut-throat and not as fun, when people are chasing $$$! Instead of prize money (or whatever you want to call it), get a sponsor, etc to cover the cost of putting on the race, which would lower entry fees, thus gaining more entrys. Use the money to buy new and better club equipment, etc for putting races on or if there was prize money, spilt it up among ALL the racers entered for the day (weekend) of racing.

[David Mason]

If you want no prize money, perhaps you should enlighten yourselves with the idea that it costs around a hundred bucks everytime you stop at the gas station to and from a race course....................... lower entry fee, whoopie, I just put 5 bucks in my gas tank. I just won $500.00, I am estatic because I can afford to fill up my tank without using the credit card..... all the way home. I can travel to more races because I now can afford gas. I also have incentive to improve so that I can place higher at each race.

Talk about grass roots, think back about 20 - 30 years ago. It was not uncommon to win a lot of money and pay for your racing all year. The so called glory days...... most of the races had good prize money. At least in Mod. I believe Pro did as well. I have no idea what stockers were doing as I never attended a stock race until the last 10 years. Now it is common to see them both at each race.

So before anyone says prize money does not work, think about how big kneelers were in thehay days, and remember, there was prize money then, and not much now......... what happened to the number of racers ????

I agree though, Mod and Stock will never achieve Nascar status, and I think it should remain grass roots. However, with the participation the way it is, there can never be a true right answer to grow the sport. Only lots of opinons that seem to be tailered to specific agendas.

[mercguy]

If you want no prize money, perhaps you should enlighten yourselves with the idea that it costs around a hundred bucks everytime you stop at the gas station to and from a race course....................... lower entry fee, whoopie, I just put 5 bucks in my gas tank. I just won $500.00, I am estatic because I can afford to fill up my tank without using the credit card..... all the way home. I can travel to more races because I now can afford gas. I also have incentive to improve so that I can place higher at each race.

Talk about grass roots, think back about 20 - 30 years ago. It was not uncommon to win a lot of money and pay for your racing all year. The so called glory days...... most of the races had good prize money. At least in Mod. I believe Pro did as well. I have no idea what stockers were doing as I never attended a stock race until the last 10 years. Now it is common to see them both at each race.

So before anyone says prize money does not work, think about how big kneelers were in thehay days, and remember, there was prize money then, and not much now......... what happened to the number of racers ????

I agree though, Mod and Stock will never achieve Nascar status, and I think it should remain grass roots. However, with the participation the way it is, there can never be a true right answer to grow the sport. Only lots of opinons that seem to be tailered to specific agendas.



Dave, if it only cost me a $100 to fill a gas tank, then I would be happy, but it does not. The gas money deal is the biggest crock I have heard. If it costs so much for one indivdual, then team up and share the expense, which would also increase the turnout for that race. Gas prices are not the only things that have risen, so has everything else (you think you can buy a house anymore for under $200,00?). And if you think only saving $5 on a entry fee (that might be the savings on an east cost race, but costs alot more out west to race!, so figure a $10 savings per entry fee) is nothing, then think about the guys that race more than 1 class (more like 3/4 a day). I spend more on entry fees that gas money for region races! You start adding big prize money, then it will end up like NASCAR, with people "bump drafting" or plain taking you out, just to get that prize money. especially with races with more than 100 entrys......

[Roy Hodges]

In my book, a real racer just wants to race. He don't NEED to care about glory. the "pro"racers would not even walk across the street to watch a race ,(even if admission were free) if they can't make a living at it & be sponsored the whole enchalada, they QUIT ! I have no use for these kind . I'm talking about a true enthusiast, not just some kind of guy who has to win( & make money at it ) or say to hell with it . I am trying to put together a race boat , but i am guessing that all i will do is take it for fun rides down the NAPA river- the A P B A is it's own worst enemy .

[JohnsonM50]

That's not such a bad thing. Though I never have gambled in my life. even when I go to Vegas I do the shows and laugh at all the geniouses loosing their shirts....But, why not bet on boat races? I'm gunna gamble this and say I'll betcha there have been large Vegas lines for heavily promoted races, so why not??? Man it's hard enough findiong water to ruin on around here, I can just hear the politics of that propostion!

Im no gambler either however the few times I played poker I left W/O $$ so -thats all I have to say about that- Plenty of all kinds of water around AC

[Ron Hill]

We used to race at Waterford, California, outside of Modesto...I think it was called Turlock Resevoir....They had the annual Cal Cup Regatta and Bud David Kilos there...AL ESTEL would annoucne the Cal Cup...Ernie Rose would drive his LIL BEE..a Speedliner with an inline Chevy 6, with the throttle on the the left....The boat really wasn't dangerous, but Ernie could make it look that way...With Al Estel announcing, Ernie Rose could run by himself and the spectators would go crazy...

I was changing my C motor from my hydro to my runabout or something and the J Runabouts were racing, from the pits you could only see half the course. Al Estel was announcing this JU race and I was listening while changing my motor. He got me so excited about the race that was going on, I RAN over to the point, so I could see the whole course...I was out of breath, and what did it see but two J Runabouts running side by side...

I'd seen J Runabouts run side by side a lot, but Al Estel had my minds eye expcepting to see Miss Budweiser and Miss Bardahl running at 190 right at the shore, the way Al was talking...To this day I think what a dummie I was to run about a hundred yards to watch two J Runabouts....

As far as prize money goes....We paid out about $10,000 at Parker. We won our class and won overall. We got $1,500. SECOND PLACE DIVISION ONE GOT $100. There were only three boats in Division I, but each one got $100. They paid $300 to race.....The winner could have gotten $300...but I know the 007 crew liked their $100. We wanted Parker to be a RACERS RACE..A GENTLEMAN's EVENT...with women invited to race too!!!

I actually would argue, that some classes at Parker shouldn't even get prize money...If your boat cost $150,000, you ain't racing for the $1,500 PRIZE MONEY...YOU WANT TO BE A PARKER WINNER...

WHEN I RAN THE WINTERNATIONALS AND PAID OUT $65,000 IN CASH, 1970, I made sure we paid the top 5 per heat, to spread the cash around....Oh, how I wish LAND DEVELOPERS didn't have to make sure there was water on their land that they are selling....I loved those land "Swindler's....of course, no one ever lost a DIME on a Golden Shores lot... BUT our government saved us....by passing laws so we'd have WATER)....

I like TOW money....compared to PRIZE MONEY, that's me talking as it cost me they same $3,000 last year to lose Parker as it did to win it this year...

ADD: Mercury Maniacs...Ted May was basically a RODEO CLOWN for Speedboat Rodeo...He and his "GANG" were SHOWMEN...not racers...he entertained the crowd by driving through fire on the water...by playing Davey Crockett and wearing Coon Skin hats and shooting at OLD MY GOD, INDIANS..... TV racing ws two hours, every weekend... for 39 weeks....Have you ever seen a guy pretend to be shot and fall out of his boat. Then, have his boat go through fire and crash onto the rocky shore line??? Well a KG-7 with stacks sounds cool until it goes into a fire, then because ther eis no air, motor actually stops until it comes out of the fire...Ted would dress like an Indian, and avy Cockett would shot him. He;s fall out of his boat, and th boat would go through these big flames and come out th other side and run on shore...He'd have Herbie or Bobby over there to shut it off...I once loaned Ted a STAINLESS SHEAR PIN (He always used brass so when he hit the rocks, nothing would happen to his gears)...for his boat and when he hit the rocks he blew the gears....Ted was "HOT" about blowing his gears and Only Ted May could blow his top like that!!!! Elgin Gates finally agreed to give Ted new gears....

[David Mason]

Dave, if it only cost me a $100 to fill a gas tank, then I would be happy, but it does not. The gas money deal is the biggest crock I have heard. If it costs so much for one indivdual, then team up and share the expense, which would also increase the turnout for that race. Gas prices are not the only things that have risen, so has everything else (you think you can buy a house anymore for under $200,00?). And if you think only saving $5 on a entry fee (that might be the savings on an east cost race, but costs alot more out west to race!, so figure a $10 savings per entry fee) is nothing, then think about the guys that race more than 1 class (more like 3/4 a day). I spend more on entry fees that gas money for region races! You start adding big prize money, then it will end up like NASCAR, with people "bump drafting" or plain taking you out, just to get that prize money. especially with races with more than 100 entrys......

Sounds like you guys could use some good prize money. As for taking people out, that already happens in Stock and Mod. It takes someone to take a stand on what they feel is right and wrong on the race course and stand up to the person doing it. Then hope you don't get sued.

Like I said, back in the hay days the prize money was there, and it was good money. Dad used to come home with $1500 a lot of times. And 30 years ago that was a lot of money to win racing. Paid for all expenses and then some.

I would be happy to get some cash to pay for expenses, I can go to more races, same as you could. I really have a lot of doubts that Mod and stock racing will ever turn into something like Nascar. Maybe Pro, Unlimiteds, or OPC could, but not the kneelers.

Lets face it, most of us are grass roots racers. We race for fun. When we get enough to cover expenses it gives me a sense of pride that I accomplished something from almost nothing.

Sorry, did not mean to stir up any hornets nest, we just have a very different opinion on this. All I wanted to do is point out there was GOOD prize money back when Mod and Stock were HUGE in numbers.

[smittythewelder]

What about some intermediate solution, a level of Stock/Mod/PRO racing that is not trying to emulate NASCAR, which is impossible, but which is a considerable enhancement of the current situtation?

In the mid-'70s, Bob Rhoades was building his own excellant hydros and running Zak-prepared C and D Konigs. To defray expenses, he pitched Olympia Brewing Company and got a respectable one-year sponsorship, nothing he could live on, but enough to pay for a year's racing, some engine work, a few props. In short, the kind of sponsorship most small-time racers would love to have, but only a few, like Rhoades, have the enterprise to pursue.

But Bob was undone by the rank amateurism of his sport. In the middle of the season one of the marketing managers for Olympia drove out to a race, put on by Seattle Outboard. He discovered that Rhoades' racing outfit was not representative of the sport, but was the best looking thing on a beach that held too many boats that had their numbers painted on by dyslexics, or had an X made from masking tape. Crappy-looking trailers had been towed in by crappy-looking cars. The announcing of the race was done by a well-intentioned but utterly unskilled club member. The sequence of events was a mystery to any outsider, which probably didn't matter in that there were not many spectators. The final straw, as Bob told me later, was that someone had forgotten to pack the checkered flag into the club trailer; a man's checkered shirt was borrowed from a club member, affixed to a stick, and used to flag the races!! On seeing that on top of everything else, the marketing man turned to Bob and told him that his sport was much too "bush-league" for Olympia Brewing to associate with, and that there would be no further sponsorship. And I can tell you that Bob fully understood and agrees with that assessment.

Racing is not going to get cheaper. And for that matter, the equipment at the PRO level, built by three or four European engine-builders, is superior in all respects to the stuff that we ran in the golden era of our imagined memories. Outside of pari-mutuel racing (an idea which has merit and deserves serious consideration), racing purses and tow-money are not to be depended upon. Therefore, those who want to defray expenses need to find their own spnosors, as Rhoades did. What needs to change is the sort of grubby amteurishness of club races.

[mercguy]

What about some intermediate solution, a level of Stock/Mod/PRO racing that is not trying to emulate NASCAR, which is impossible, but which is a considerable enhancement of the current situtation?

In the mid-'70s, Bob Rhoades was building his own excellant hydros and running Zak-prepared C and D Konigs. To defray expenses, he pitched Olympia Brewing Company and got a respectable one-year sponsorship, nothing he could live on, but enough to pay for a year's racing, some engine work, a few props. In short, the kind of sponsorship most small-time racers would love to have, but only a few, like Rhoades, have the enterprise to pursue.

But Bob was undone by the rank amateurism of his sport. In the middle of the season one of the marketing managers for Olympia drove out to a race, put on by Seattle Outboard. He discovered that Rhoades' racing outfit was not representative of the sport, but was the best looking thing on a beach that held too many boats that had their numbers painted on by dyslexics, or had an X made from masking tape. Crappy-looking trailers had been towed in by crappy-looking cars. The announcing of the race was done by a well-intentioned but utterly unskilled club member. The sequence of events was a mystery to any outsider, which probably didn't matter in that there were not many spectators. The final straw, as Bob told me later, was that someone had forgotten to pack the checkered flag into the club trailer; a man's checkered shirt was borrowed from a club member, affixed to a stick, and used to flag the races!! On seeing that on top of everything else, the marketing man turned to Bob and told him that his sport was much too "bush-league" for Olympia Brewing to associate with, and that there would be no further sponsorship. And I can tell you that Bob fully understood and agrees with that assessment.

Racing is not going to get cheaper. And for that matter, the equipment at the PRO level, built by three or four European engine-builders, is superior in all respects to the stuff that we ran in the golden era of our imagined memories. Outside of pari-mutuel racing (an idea which has merit and deserves serious consideration), racing purses and tow-money are not to be depended upon. Therefore, those who want to defray expenses need to find their own spnosors, as Rhoades did. What needs to change is the sort of grubby amteurishness of club races.


"What needs to change is the sort of grubby amteurishness of club races."

.........this I would like to be explained.............as I think you are way off base.......:rolleyes:

[Mark75H]

He means all divisions should be required to wear "team uniforms" like PRO guys are actually still required to do (but 90% of them ignore at races other than USTS and Nationals)

smitty if you think APBA, AOF or NBRA is going to regulate what tow trailers look like, you are a bit off base.

The "clean up" degrubbify boat racing scenario has been tried ... and basically it made more rules, made some racers mad enough to quit and didn't bring in any sponsorship money ... its a dead horse

[mercguy]

He means all divisions should be required to wear "team uniforms" like PRO guys are actually still required to do (but 90% of them ignore at races other than USTS and Nationals)

smitty if you think APBA, AOF or NBRA is going to regulate what tow trailers look like, you are a bit off base.

The "clean up" degrubbify boat racing scenario has been tried ... and basically it made more rules, made some racers mad enough to quit and didn't bring in any sponsorship money ... its a dead horse


but there is a reason most of the time........most "stockers" are poor! They put all the $$ they can into their equipment. Some do not care about looks.

[Roy Hodges]

but there is a reason most of the time........most "stockers" are poor! They put all the $$ they can into their equipment. Some do not care about looks.
I agree with Merc guy. You guys who wanna be fancy, just don't get it . And spectators? they don't come to races , only people who know or DID know racing go to races. I went to spectate at the 1983 stock nationals at OROVILLE,CA. You know how many "Spectators" there was ? Maybe 50 or 60 ,at the MOST .
Spectators do come to BIG races ,Like the old "world Championships" at Lake Havasu" NOT club races , give up on the idea of ever getting people to come watch in a state like CALIFORNIA, this state has too many other things for
people to do & watch. Us ordinary guys just wanna race , as cheap as posible, without someone else doing all kinds of things to up the cost , we want it cheap enuff to do it outta our pocket , and let you other guys (moneybags) go have your own races ,anyway you want to .

[mercguy]

but there is a reason most of the time........most "stockers" are poor! They put all the $$ they can into their equipment. Some do not care about looks.


although, I DO care about the looks of my equipment........:cool:

[Ron Hill]

Howard Pipkorn, designer and builder of HydroStream Boats, now considered "CLASSIC", actually raced a couple fo times this year and wants to start a NEW "CLASS"....

He and I have just about decided on HP Maximum Effort Racing (The Class's name). H is for will be HILL and P is for Pipkorn.

The class will begin in Minnesota...Vee hulls with THREE CYCLINDER OMC's...GPS Speeds of a MAX 55. At driver's meeting. It will be announced the day's Prize Money Pay Out and POINTS.

Now, that sounds like the usual BS, right? Well, Howard and Ron have always been considered NUTTIER THAN an outhouse Rat....So, We may give the most prize money for the first ten lap qualifier to the third place finisher. And the most points might to the seventh place boat.....Points and money will be different, than the way the race is scored.

The point system will be semi secret to the drivers in this class.

Prize money for the second 10 lap qualifier may be paid differently that heat one.


Th 25 lap main, may pay the fourth place boat the most money. The guy who leads the most laps may not be given any prize money....He would get the first place trophy!

When I spoke with Randy today, he said, "He and his two sons, 14 and 18, have been Go-Kart Racing. He said he ran into Jason Campbell (Formula One, Lamb Technolgy Jason) and Jason is racing Go Karts, too and has a nice FACTORY ride.....What Randy said he likes best about Kart racing is that they make is so easy."

Then, he added, "Howard's idea about the 55 MPH Speed Limit would sure make it easy for someone to race." I didn't tell Randy the GPS speed was my idea....as I don't need credit....and besides, I didn't come up with Nostalgia Racing's idea....but I have totally "BOUGHT IN TO" the idea...As it is working in INBOARD and will work for OUTBOARD (WACKERS)...(AS IN WEED WACKERS)...

Because, you don't need a great prop, you don't need a BITCHEN MOTOR. What you need is a boat that goes 55 MPH or in Nostalgia Flats or Endurance 80 MPH..BUT you still got to hit the starting line on time. You've got to make the corners count...and you can't SPEED.... There are more than 100,000 BRACKET DRAG CAR RACERS IN AMERICA...Nostalgia Boat Racing is BRACKET RACING....

ADD: Rod Zapf once paid th most prize money to whoever finished third in a FREE FOR ALL...Damnest race I ever saw..about a five way tie for third...

Last ADD:

Howard and I asked each other....How many times does NASCAR throw out the Yellow for DEBRIS on the track???? And when the camera focuses in.....there it is, a Dr. Pepper can facing the camera....or some other ad... the yellow IS FOR THE show!!!!!

[Roy Hodges]

although, I DO care about the looks of my equipment........:cool:
I agree, to me it's the equipment , i don't care what the driver looks like, i am (would be) racing the boat , not the driver

[smittythewelder]

I don't think I was advocating making outboard racing a lot more expensive. On the contrary, I think if it could be made a little more attractive to sponsors, then the poor-but-energetic racer could have a shot at getting his expenses partly or wholly covered with sponsor money, as Bob Rhoades and a few others have tried to do.

When I suggested this very modest semi-pro possibility, I got the same reaction as when, last spring (I think), I threw out some ideas for pari-mutuel racing. And that was that several of you seem to think there is only one way to run all outboard races. Well, why?

Seems to me that the guys who like the simplest, least expensive, least pretentious amateur outboard racing (and this appeals to me, too), can run their races any way they want regardless of whether another group wants to try to go semi-pro or whatever. Instead of joining APBA, run wildcat races, or join whatever is the cheapest regional or national organization that shares your philosophy. You could keep costs down and have just as much fun with a 2-blade-props rule, or limit everyone to club-supplied gasoline, or an old-Mercurys-only rule, or WHATEVER.

But some guys want to race for APBA points and records and championships, and run state-of-the art equipment and their own secret fuel brews and 8-blade props, and go real fast, AND GET PAID to carry some advertising, do a little PR work, and so forth, just like guys racing motorcycles, cars, you name it. To do that, their races have to look a bit sharper than a club picnic, and they have to draw spectators. I'm saying I think it could be done. I'm not saying YOU should have to do it.

Same thing with gambling races. I saw this done, when I lived in Japan. I don't even gamble, but if I did I'd bet that there is an indian tribe in my area which would buy into this idea if it were professionally presented, and that once the racing got underway, drivers could make their living at it. There are drivers among you who would a lot rather race for a living, even if it didn't pay especially well, than continue working their current boring job. But AGAIN, I'm NOT saying that ALL outboard racing should go in this direction; it should not.

As I understood it, Ron told us this website had as part of its mission the gathering of ideas for improving boatracing. I'm just throwing out the possibility of more options, not of all-encompassing mandates.

[Ron Hill]

You are "RIGHT ON", when you said Ron wants to see change.....As Rod Zapf says about Parker, "Let no boat be left behind". I say let no thought go un-posted.

I'll be the FIRST to ADMIT that I thought Nostalgia Racing was the DUMBEST thing I'd ever heard of. I didn't even watch them when they were out there "RACING" the first year...Then one day, Bill Curis and I were talking about there being over 100,000 Bracket Racers in America and maybe 12 PROFESSIONAL DRAG RACERS. All of a sudden, I said, "Sh*t, this is COOL." ANd once I started watching them...I thought maybe I could...

I went to the Run to the Sun Car Show with Fred Bowden, October, 2005, there were 1,000 cars there, most were totally "CHERRY". You know what they did with them? Nothing. They sat around and looked at their cars. They walked around and looked at other guys cars... Everyone seemed to just being enjoying the HELL out of the weekend.

These cars cost $15,000 to $150,000.... What I saw happening when the show ended, was that everyone TOOK THEIR MACHINE HOME IN ONE PIECE...

What I see happening in Nostalgia Boat Racing is: A bunch of people having fun with their boats. If they go too fast, someone looks at the GPS and docks them a lap....No one seems pissed off them "BROKE OUT". Pat Bowman and I are putting together a Nostalgia V Hull Outboard. Ernie Dawe and I are going to Tennessee to pick this boat up...Pat and I spent about 30 inutes talking about how we wanted to make it look as good as any boat at the races, maybe better than some...We discussed that if Outboards get too many, maybe we could run a staggered start with the ENDURANCE NOSTALGIA BOATS...AS we really don't need more heats. Our main goal with this boat is to have a boat for Pat at the Enduro. If you haven't followed Pat's "PROGRESS", he and Chad grew up in Irvine, played football together, race 45, when Chad was 16, raced Formula One's at 19. Pat drove his first race at Parker, 2005. He and Chad won 2006. BUt he wants his own boat for 2006. In 1978, Fred Bowden was driving a 150 Johnson on a Taylor....(Boat Racing needs a MINOR LEAGUE)...

In Nostalgia, no one is breaking their equipment because 80 MPH isn't that fast in these boats. At 80 MPH they can control their boats, though they get into each other now and then..... Generally, they give each other room...

I talked to some spectators at Parker, and they thought the racing was SUPER CLOSE and could not believe that a outboard could stay with those inboards....(Maybe, I shouldn't have told them there was an 80 MPH speed Limit...)...

Region 12, SCSC Racing HAD A VERY GOOD YEAR. Ross "THE BOSS" basically worked full time promoting racing. When I was OPC Chairman in 1999-2000, I "GAVE" Ross the Award of Outstanding Service to OPC...or something like that... Truth is, Ross has BUSTED HIS BUTT for more than ONE year promoting Boat Racing. Ross is a "LIFER" in Boat Racing....He worked in my Prop Shop for less than MINIMUM wage when he was in his teens...

Ross OWNS the Western Formula Lights Series. Like his RULINGS or NOT, he has a "PROGRAM". He runs two ten lap heats on Saturday and a 25 LAP FINAL on Sunday. He runs a 35 second course, which, is about half the size kneeldowner like to race on....(BACIALLY, A HALF MILE TRACK)...

He has met with and continues to meet with the GNRA. He has GN's running the same "PROGRAM"...Two 10 laps heats, Saturday and a 20 Lap final on Sunday... Ross works with the Cracker Box Club. And although they haven't got to the "FINAL HEAT CONCEPT"...(What's nice about a FINAL heat Concept is the fact that the guy that crosses the line in the final is the WINNER...AND maybe, Cracker Box is this way, but I even get confused....

Ross has talked to the Kneeldown Group about changing their "PROGRAM"...but they still want to run three laps in "A", three laps in 20 and three laps in "C" and get their points and go home...My Fraternity Brother George Klaus, as is in Santa Claus, worked at a Cement Factory and besides drinking lots of beer, he often wondered where that FIRST TRUCK LOAD of cement came from? Because without cement, you couldn't build a cement factory.

The truth is, some of the kneeldown equipment is painted and polished as nice as anybody's equipment....But as my eye sight goes, with advanced age, I really can't tell a 20 Hydro, from and OSY-400 hydro from a "C" Hydro.....Seems to me, the answer to the "SIGHT"problem would be to run 20,OSy, and C Hydro together for a ten lap heat and then reverse the finishing order and run them again....3 laps in OSY, 3 laps in 20 and 3 laps is C...9 laps...or one ten lap heat, that spectators, TV and Ron Hill, might know who won...Then, on Sunday, a 25 lap main event....Do they run Midgets at the Chili Bowl three laps????

I think SCSC averaged 16 Cracker Boxes this season. Cracker Boxes only race in California...Maybe Region 10....but 16 at every race???...Hell, no wonder we have spectators...We have a show....AND THROW in a few K Boats.... Head for the hills the dam's busted....

And, on top of this, Ross supports ENTRY LEVEL RACING...

See, there should be a line drawn in the sand: Kind of like Travis did at the Alamo...One side is RACERS RACING and the OTHER SIDE is SPECTATOR SPORT. And GOD LOVE J RUNABOUT...and Ross's son maybe in one next year...J Runabout is ONLY INTERSTING to J RUNABOUT PARENTS....

See the best race of the day is the one your kids races in...

[smittythewelder]

If you're old enough (yeah, RH, I mean the other guys here!), you might remember the old Yamaha ad campaign, "Different Strokes for Different Folks."

No, Sam, I do not want everybody in all the divisions wearing team uniforms. In fact, when the uniforms idea first came up in the early '70s, my first reaction was, "Well lah-dee-dah, aren't we going to get cute!" But after a while I could see the impulse behind that idea, and I now think there might be a place for it.

And Daren, maybe "grubby amateurism" was a little much; I'm willing to retract the "grubby." But one weekend sticks in my mind. My guest at the race was a top Can-Am racer; I had been his guest at a sports car race and wanted to show him what we do. Well, as happens when you are hosting someone you hope to please or impress, you start seeing things you hadn't noticed previously, embarrasing things you'd rather your guest didn't see. Probably the worst single item was the trailer, two boats down from mine, belonging to a man who raised chickens; the fender and part of the deck of the trailer were covered with bird-crap. My guest didn't say much that day, and he didn't stick around for long. And I have looked at outboard races differently ever since.