Safety Rules....

[Ron Hill]

SO,MOD,PRO
Across the boat racing world , outside the US and inside, we have seen more severe accidents like the following, this year. The boat types are laydowns or kneelers, one boat spins and another boat goes over the top,"T" bones, or severely collides with the "spun out" boat. We used to have more stories about the driver behind being able to avoid the accident, how the following driver through skill and luck missed the accident. Not so much any more..... Contributing factors are; speeds are up......some consequential reduction in stability, boat density, protection of the driver?(is it as good as it could be?).
The boat designers have generally been increasing the height of the sides of the cockpit over the last few years. The UIM has added rules requiring higher sides and retrofitting the existing boats with kevlar reinforcement to absorb impact. Please examine your categories experience with an eye to the future. Are there changes that should be considered that might result in lower boat density, design requirements changes.
The PRO commission is in the process of reviewing the Nick Davis accident, arriving at conclusions and is scheduled to complete prior to the National meeting.
The PRO rules have required impact material(aka "flack jacket") in there jackets for as long as I can remember. This protection has mitigated injuries countless times. The manufacturers, rescue personell, safety committee members have many stories from emergency room physicians, drivers, doctors, rehabilitation therapists about the efficacy of this protection to distribute the impact loads and reduce the effects that may be sustained.It is time for SO, MOD, J and the other categories where this protection is appropriate to require the impact protection. In talking to the lifejacket manufacturer's it seems that when a jacket is being purchased or re-built that the customer is concerned about cost and goes for the minimum quite often,i.e., no impact material, no helmet restraint attachments, etc. The impact material cost is less than a third of the price of a new propellor. Go Figure......It's time to require the impact protection for unrestrained drivers in the classes that do not require it. When the impact with the water occurs, the impact is no less because the driver was tossed from a SO, MOD, J, etc., class boat instead of a PRO boat.......

From Bob Wartinger

[Miss BK]

Stock Mod and J aren't using impact jackets? WOW I had no idea.

[David_L6]

Stock Mod and J aren't using impact jackets? WOW I had no idea.


I am. ;)

[Miss BK]

And you are a smart man. ;)

[Dr. Thunder]

And so is Mr.Wartinger (a smart man) ... too bad all drivers, all parents don't pay heed to his words!

[Tomtall]

When the impact with the water occurs, the impact is no less because the driver was tossed from a SO, MOD, J, etc., class boat instead of a PRO boat.......

From Bob Wartinger

This fall we had an accident occur at a SO race that involved two "J" drivers. Driver "A" stalls just exiting turn 4. Driver "B" comes out of turn four at WOT and rearends driver "A"s boat.The impact was taken by the Merc. powerhead and stoped boat "B" from running over the top of driver "A". The thing that blew me away was the damage done by this 40 mph crash.The front pickle (pointed) went right thru the back of the engine block. Now imagine if that block was the chest of a person. They would probably be dead. After seeing that accident I decided that my sons new life vest would be a Pro model with flack. <!-- / message -->

[Tim Chance]

It’s a shame that safety rules have to be mandated, that people don’t have enough sense on their own, to purchase and use the best and proper safety equipment. Coming back into racing after several years out of the sport, I will be running Mod but I’m going to buy the best Pro gear available. I have a used Pugh hydro and over the winter am going to reinforce the cockpit. Sure, it will cost money, but. . .

Years ago, someone had an discussion about the cost of boat racing with the late Bill Tenney, Bill looked at the guy, said: “If you can’t afford it—take up golf.”, and walked away. Well I say: Golf costs money too, if you can’t afford it—watch golf on television.

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

I know this topic has been dicussed several times over at Hydro Racer with some very interesting input as well as some not so interesting input. I have to say that there are many ways in which we can begin making ourselves safer, from our driving syle to boats built with new materials, better safety gear, etc... I agree with all of it. Attached are a couple of pictures of my new MJR Composite CSH from this past summer. Its light, tough, fast and safe. 22" tall cockpit sides made of carbon on the inside and kevlar on the outside. Floorboard made the same way, and the windshield made entirely of kevlar. Almost forgot, the pickles are rounded over as well.

[Brian10sCSH]

Good looking boat Joe,
Looks almost as good as mine.

[David_L6]

Those rounded pickles look funky but they are probably safer. I have both...... My wooden B&H CMH and carbon fiber Arltralite D/EMH have pointed sponsons. My carbon fiber Arltralite FE/SE has rounded sponsons (it's also the newest of the 3 boats).

Composites of carbon fiber, Kevlar, and other materials are the way to go. I saw a program on TV - Discovery I think - a few weeks ago about the strongest rope in the world. The company that makes that rope starts with Spectra and then does something else to it to gain even more strength. We now have Spectra "cut suits". I wonder if/when we'll start seeing Spectra used in boat building applications the same way that carbon fiber and Kevlar are now?

[David Weaver]

Those rounded pickles look funky but they are probably safer. I have both...... My wooden B&H CMH and carbon fiber Arltralite D/EMH have pointed sponsons. My carbon fiber Arltralite FE/SE has rounded sponsons (it's also the newest of the 3 boats).

Composites of carbon fiber, Kevlar, and other materials are the way to go. I saw a program on TV - Discovery I think - a few weeks ago about the strongest rope in the world. The company that makes that rope starts with Spectra and then does something else to it to gain even more strength. We now have Spectra "cut suits". I wonder if/when we'll start seeing Spectra used in boat building applications the same way that carbon fiber and Kevlar are now?

But do you have to throw away the boat after an impact-accident, like a helmet? Of course, you can always get a new boat. But if the intent is safety, as soon as the material is compromised that boat should not be run again (unless it can be repaired to original spec).

[MJR]

But do you have to throw away the boat after an impact-accident, like a helmet? Of course, you can always get a new boat. But if the intent is safety, as soon as the material is compromised that boat should not be run again (unless it can be repaired to original spec).

That logic applies to wood as well. Anything that has been compromised cannot possibly be restored to its original spec. As long as the safety part did its job, does it really matter what you have to do to fix the compromised area?

[David Weaver]

That logic applies to wood as well. Anything that has been compromised cannot possibly be restored to its original spec. As long as the safety part did its job, does it really matter what you have to do to fix the compromised area?

Well, I actually agree that the material has done its job. I have seen many wooden boats repaired over the years. I have no experience with these new materials, so my intent was more of a question, not a judgement. I have seen wood boats raced for years following an accident and have seen them survive multiple accidents in tact. The wood appears to have some level of "give". Will the composite materials work the same?

Do not get me wrong, I intend for my next boat to have a reinforced cockpit area. I do want to know what I will be "buying into" however.

[MJR]

Composites are there to absorb and deflect away the impact. This is something that wood just cannot do very well, it splinters inside and out.

Tunnel boats have been doing this for more than 20 years now so this is not new, just new to hydros. The best possible area for this is the center section, where the driver is. The whole purpose is to protect the driver and forget about the rest of boat. The boat can be repaired much easier than the driver can.

The nice thing about composites are that they can be repaired to be even stronger than the original state without adding more weight and having to worry about missing something, like hidden splintered wood.

When you repair wood, you are cutting out splintered wood and making replacements back in place but the wood grain has been compromised, which is where a lot of the strength is in the wood, plus it seems that repairing wood some how adds weight.

[Ron Hill]

Mike.....Your handle "OLD" says it all.... I too am old, but have vowed to have a new 45 built that is NOT a pickle fork....The vow is three years old as I still haven't made a legal capsule from my Hoffman molds...But I took the mold to Joey Cucci, in Havasu, last weekend, and will be at Joey's tomorrow...

Actually, we might open a big topic here, becasue the pickle fork concept maybe be better because...

Ernie Dawe is building me a small hydro for a 8 HP.....it will not have forks...

[STU Racing]

Mike,
boats like you describe are out there. Dean and Tom Sutherland (spelling?) have made boat without pickles and both have won nationals with them in AMH and CSH.
The only reason I've heard for having pickles is to help the boat keep from stuffing. Also with the inboards the sponsons have become larger for more stability throughout a corner.

I personally have 2 boats with carbon fiber reinforcement. My 20ssh (which is for sale on this board) has the right cockpit side reinforced on the inside, and my CSH arltralight is all composite and carbon fiber and I enjoy knowing I'm that much safer out there on the course.

[David Mason]

If everyone is using a composite boat, you would be able to manufacture pieces and parts to repair the boat in case of an accident. Imagine replacing a sponson overnight at the race, and be ready to race it Sunday....... Drop a new coaming wall in be ready to go...... Coaming walls can be bolted in in certain types of construction methods.

COmposites are a great thing. To bad we can't get carbon for a few years at a reasonable cost when it is in stock.

MJR has found a way to make the Kevlar and other materials to work as well as the carbon, if not better, and more safer.

Just some more thoughts.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I will preface the comments on the new boats pictured on this thread by stating that I am and always have been a big believer in safety. I wore a snowmobile flack jacket under my gentex before the advent of the more modern jackets, and the last hydro I had built, (winter 03) had kevlar sides, etc. BUT I have a real question about the boats pictured. Why spend all the extra time, money, and effort to have high, strong cockpit sides, and then cut them down almost to the deck on the throttle side. I know about leaning out over the side to turn left, but PRO boats probably twice or more faster turn left quite well with the driver laying on his stomach. This just doesn't make much sense if you want protection, and then cut it all away. What am I missing here? You stand more of a chance of getting hit from the inside in a turn than the outside. No insult intended, Mark, I just don't get it. Was this a driver request of the builder?

[Jeff Akers]

If I wanted to build an outboard hydro that was UIM complyant, where would I find the Layup schedule? The one that tells me spacificaly what materials I can use, How much of those materials to use in what order etc!

I'm looking for specifics !

I don't understand why I cant "easily" find this info:(

If someone doe's post it , then could you please tell us where you found it?

Thanks.

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Bill,

When I purchased my new MJR CSH last summer, I talked to Marc about leaving the inside cockpit tall just like the outside cockpit because I wanted to be propected as much as possible. However, I decided to cut it down for the throttle and for me to be able to lean out when turning. I'm glad I had Marc cut down the cockpit side as it is needed to be able to turn the boat properly. I wish I could have left the side tall, but it just isn't possible. With Pro racing, the motors are on short tower housings and the smaller motors are very light. The 302 Yamato is on a much taller tower housing and the motor weights roughly 100lbs so leaning out while turning is offsetting the extra weight especially on the tall tower. As far as laydowns, I built myself a laydown CSH and raced it for one and a half summers and found that not being able to lean out while turning is why the boat always broched through the turns.

[Brian10sCSH]

Joe is correct. The major difference (in this discussion) between pro and stock boats going through the turns is the weight and height of the motors. The stock motor is so tall and heavy that it likes to tip the boat in the turns. When I ran C Mod, which allows you to lower the powerhead by using a shortened tower, the engine was much better in the turns, did not want to rip the fin out of the water and you did not have to lean nearly as much. I am sure Pro guys (and girls) who run OSY and another pro class would see even a bigger difference since most pro motors weight tons less than the Yamato.

[David Mason]

Any boat in any divison can be made to turn without having to lean out. You first have to have a good design, then balance the boat properly. If you are to light in the front of course it won't turn without leaning out. To heavy in front it plows.

At any rate, no boat off the shelf will be perfectly balanced with engine, driver and what not. To achieve this one must test with weights in the boat you can move around. Find the perfect position to balance things out and you should not have to move much under normal racing conditions.

It might be harder to achieve this in stock because of the height of the towers, but it can be achieved.

Remembering that once it is balanced, if you move in the boat it will throw the balance off and handle poorly.

Most of us are old school, used to leaning out and it is as routine as brushing your teeth. Hard habit to break.

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

I agree with you Dave. I will admit that I do not think my laydown design is correct. Its close, but not correct. I think my sponsons are not correct which is part of the reason why my laydown did not turn well. However, after building the boat, I realized I built it to heavy therefore I'm not going to do much with it. I do think if I moved the dash forward to get my weight more forward that it would turn better. I may play with it at the river just to see if it turns better, but the new MJR is so much better, its not worth much effort. MJR all the way. Man does that thing make awesome lap times!!! Any time you can get a good start in CSH with a 302 and outrun some of the fastest CSH's, mostly 102's, your running good!

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Joe and Brian


I understand completely where you are coming from regards the tall tower housings. As early as the late 70's and early 80's I had very short tower housings on my C and D Konigs that I ran on a Rhoades and Daniels Hydro. It certainly can make a difference in the way the boat corners, especially at higher speeds. The point I was trying to raise, and you both have certainly indicated you understand it, is it just seems to fly in the face of what you are trying to accomplish with the stronger cockpit sides and then cut that protection away so you can lean out over the deck. Dave Mason makes some good points and I know they will solve some of the problems, because I did some of those same things 20-30years ago.

We all know there have been several fatalities the last couple of years due to collisions between a boat at rest and one traveling at speed, both in stock and PRO. If the reason for the high reinforced cockpit sides is to try to prevent this type of injury/death situation, then the protection needs to stay where it was put and not be removed to correct a poor handling problem that could be solved with a short tower housing. And before someone jumps in the middle of me, Yes, I know you have rules in stock, but that seemed to never stop the imposition of safety rules by a racing commission to cure what seems to be an obvious problem that needs solving.

I AM NOT, as anyone who has read my rant about the PRO "radio rule" several years ago, a proponent of racing commissions making "safety rules" for what can be construed as the wrong reasons. But I have seen several accidents of this type, one here in the St. Louis area some 20-25 years ago where a driver either was tossed and then run over by a following boat, or flipped and the same thing occured because of tall tower housing/big flywheel/gyroscopic/heavy powerhead effect, making an unsafe cornering boat. A rule to solve this problem would be for all the right reasons. Surely something could be done with the cooperation of the people who make tower housings, (Bass, others I don't know about) that if a large enough order was placed and a rule phased in over several years such as the capsule rule in PRO, that a large number of tower housings could be produced, either cast or fabricated, that would solve the problem at a reasonable cost. Probably the stock clamp bracket/kick out assembly could be used to help with the cost even more. It wouldn't be easy, but the cost of doing nothing or building safer boats at extra cost, and then cutting the protection away to solve another safety problem, isn't the best way to handle the situation either. Maybe this could be raised with your stock and mod commissions?

Safety solutions are never easy and someone is always going to be the bad guy, but the alternative is much worse. I know, I ran over someone who was tossed out right in front of me with nowhere to go. Fortunately for us both, I didn't kill him.

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

I agree with you Bill, that when it comes to safety, we have to always be thinking ahead and moving forward. I choose to stay out of the national political scene as its not my bag, and try to do as much as I can in terms of safety with myself. I think one of the biggest things us drivers can do for safety purposes is to realize that the throttle works both ways. I've slowed down many times when I didn't feel comfortable in a situation on the race course. Also, I'm racing for the competiton of the sport, friendships, and the fun of it all. Therefore, I will push my equipment to the fullest but always drive as safe as I can. No reason to turn in front of someone because I "think" there is a boat length between myself and the driver behind me. Thinking like this can take us a long way in safety.

We definately need people who think safety first and we them to voice their opinions, research and designs to the national organizations. I applaud those who are willing to do this and hope they continue to do this.

Racers have to be willing to change, and I'm willing to change to make the sport safer. In just the last couple of days there have been some video links from the Japanese stadium racing linked to hydroracer and if you watch those videos, you'll see that their boats handle really well, even in the rough water conditions and even when they slide into each other. I'm very impressed with how their boats handle the heavy Yamatos and how they are able to turn left and right without incident. Not to say our boats in the states do not handle extremely well, because they do, but its just something to look at and learn from. The same can be said when looking at other European boats.

Hopefully, all of us can continue to work together and make the sport safer which leads to us having more fun while on the race course racing.

[smittythewelder]

Maybe safety needs looking at from a driver-training angle as well. I don't know what is done now, but I don't remember getting driving info beyond learning what the flags mean, and a couple of other things. There was, and maybe is, an unexamined assumption that driving skills are something anybody who can pay the entry fee will pick up pretty quickly.

But I remember very well trying to avoid guys who were obviously visually-impaired by their use of tunnel-vision. All they could see was the first turn bouy, and if you were on the inside of them you better back off or they would slowly move leftwards until you collided. I saw, somewhere, a piece of advice, "Don't have your head on a swivel." I sure don't know what was meant by that. I d****d well want drivers who look around, who have an awareness of where they are in relation to nearby boats, who do not use tunnel vision. Drivers also need it hammered into them to observe things that are happening well ahead of them, so that they don't have to take mad evasive actions at the last instant.

Finally, there is an invaluable, life-saving trick being taught in motorcycle safety courses which should be part of a boat-racer's mental programming. If you suddenly find an object in front of you that you have to avoid (man or boat), DO NOT look at the object as you drive around it. Instead, instantly direct your eyes at the place you want to go. Snap your head in that same direction, and concentrate your whole attention on your escape route. This will enormously increase your chances of a successful maneuver. This trick works well in all kinds of situations on the street, too.