Why Is There a 45 SS Class???

[Ron Hill]

Bottom Line: Kneeldowns are kneeldowns, and tunnels are tunnels...So, why are there 45 SS Tunnels in Kneeldown Division of Racing???

Kneeldowns racing should change their names to "Classic Outboard"....but to mix capsule boats and non capsule boats, in the same Division, is crazy to me...

I was reading the APBA Propeller magazine the other day....as I wanted to maybe post some High Point winners...After reading the magazine and NOT knowing the different systems of scoring points, it dawned on me that the magazine was COOL, but how was I to know who was HIGH POINT in any class???

The Boat Racing System is some complicated.....no wonder the average guy never joins....and then throw in 45 SS and 45 SST AND SST 45..THREE NAMES FOR THE SAME CLASS.........It looks like Chad hill, ran one Kneeldown race and is going to be 45 SS Marathon National High Point Champion, but because there were only 9 boats, at tis one race, he won't get points toward the Hall of Champions...He didn't sit a record, so he won't make the Hall of Champions...

Here is a driver, Chad Hill, who won the 45 SS Marathon Nationals, Marathon National High Points and the Blue Water Resort and Casino 300 Enduro .....WHO won't be considered for the APBA Hall of Champions....

See, when Ted and I started this web page, we wanted to CHANGE BOAT RACING and have a BOAT RACING ENCYCLOPEDIA...

Seems to me, that all 45 Classes should be renamed Formula Lites......and scored accordingly...

It also seems to me, too, that HIGH POINTS, SHOULD be the driver with the most points...screw the averages system..the Driver with the most points should be HIGH POINTS. When the clock hits mid night, October 31st...the driver in each class with the most points wins.....high points...

[Tim Chance]

Ron, I couldn't agree more, especially about High Point. In most motorsports the High Point Champion - is the High Point Champion. Exceptions being APBA with averaging, and NASCAR with its dumb "Chase" (In my mind Tony Stewart will be the real NASCAR Champion regardless of who oficially wins). And I'm with you on crossover classes, and mixing boat styles; in other words identify a category and stick with it.

[Ron Hill]

Be PROUD OF IT....... Kneeldown boats are "CLASSICS", if they want to think of them that way or not, they aren't MODERN...So why know identify them as Classic Outboard Racers????

To call a MODIFIED 302 Yamato Race Motor a "STOCK" Outboard is wrong, it is misleading if anything....They are ported, heads are milled, gearcases are cut, gas tanks modified.... Why isn't C Runabout Called Classic Racing C Runabout???

I was ondering, will Tony Stewart have the most points at the end???

Actually, NASCAR has lost me, and The Chase finished me off...I'm not sure when I became a NASCAR FAN, but recall going to Riverside, with my 1973 Winnebago and watch King Richard, David Pearson and the Purolator Mercury (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=David+Pearson+(Purolator+Mercury&spell=1) , Benny Parsons and Cale Yarborough "DUKE" it out...


Somewhere NASCAR left me....Fines for FIGHTING IN NASCAR???? Fines for everything....Yellow flag, freeze your spot, buying Speed TV, making a half hour show into an hour show....

Maybe, I'm just too old...but seems, Hersh McGriffth types are long gone...BUSCH started as a "RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG" car....

Give me the Baja 1000!! And others like it...

[David Mason]

Ron, I have to agree with you. There are dam few new engines even legal in APBA ! With all the crap over on Hydroracer on letting new engines in, it seems they are choking themselves. Just read up on the Tahatsu for D stock and you will know what I mean. And to call a Yamato a new engine.. hmpff. Model 80 has not been built sine the late 60's if memory serves, 102 has been gone for a while, the 302 is available, but not one engine from Yamato is new..... they are are all rejects from their racing program. What does that leave you ?

2 new engines in stock. Tahatsu, which can't compete because of restrictions imposed, and the new Sidewinder (used to be Champion Hot Rods). These hopefully will be available in the next year or two.

Opps, almost forgot one, the Mercuray J class engine. Cost you more to get one and get it going than it would to put together a decent running FEH.... Imagine that.

Ya, no wonder the sport is dying.

[Ron Hill]

When Tommy Ige brought the Model 80 to California in 1976, he explained that the Japanese Gambling League, required, by LAW, that new motors be used every so many months.

World Outboard Motors (I think that is the name of the company), takes the used GAMBLING motors and completely rebuilds them and sells them as REBUILT. When Tommy first sold them, to me, I bought them for $300 plus $18 tax...$318 bucks, I could get three in the back of my El Camino....I actaully sold more than Tommy. We hit boat shows together.....(At first I thought the motors were JUNK. But Tommy proved me wrong)...we worked many an hour selling these things...must have made maybe five bucks total...but we were having fun building our club...Tommy worked hard and wasn't cheap. He bought ads and promoted the MOTOR by giving parts, powerheads and complete motors as prizes...

Note: The motors come PERFECTLY STOCK and very measurasble....Guys just like to cut on them for an advantage, then argue it out that THEIR'S came that way...

Several things happened:

1. My son was born and I then had two kids, I dropped out of PROMOTING Kneelers in California and went MOD VP Racing (1979-1988)...

2. Tommy Ige built an RB and wanted the KILO record, he blew over and broke his back......He tried to get me to buy the Yamato business, for free and I told him I wasn't interested, that I had a NEW LOVE and that was "DOOR SLAMMERS" called MOD VP....

Dick Sherrer and I had written the rules for MOD VP and had we held to our rules MOD VP would still be a BIG CLASS, as at one time it was the largest class in APBA. Dick and I lost control of the rules and the class was killed by two outboard factories...(Read my MOD VP history here on BRF)....

Tommy moved to Hawaii where his wife wanted to go be..

3. Jim McKean was also a distributor of Yamato motors, but he sold to Rick Montoya who bought Tom Ige out. Rick is the ONLY distributor in the USA..So, if you want a Yamato you buy them from him... I don't see him trying to get rich, he buys and sells a few motors each year...

4. Power Boat magazine became POWERBOAT and they promoted nothing but POWER BABY where the money is.... Small boats got a bad name...Funny, as CLASSIC V-Drives now cost over $100,000 and there will be about 200-250 at any of th many Classic V Drive meets...

5. There is no REAL PROMOTER on small boat racing....No one person puts on a Chilli Bowl for Outboards...

Many of th races are like Public Education...everybody wins..47 classes, 47 winners...

The Blue Water Resort and Casino 300 Enduro is the first races in MANY reason to attempt Handicaps....and it appears to work....


Three boat, three laps for 15 hours days ain't where boat racing is heading....

45 is actually alive and doing well out west...Saturday is two 10 lap heats. Sunday is a 25 lap Main. GN's do the same...They guy that crosses the line in the final first, wins..

I sat in a patrol boat forever at a race this year, they had about tn heats with about four boats.....Dam thing all looked the same to me...Forumla E, 350 something, 1100, D Mod Runabout....At the end of the day, I'll bet no one knew who won what.....

They could have run them all together for about ten laps.....Called them in, reversed the order and raced town laps again...That would have been Saturday's racing in an hour....

Who wants to work two 15 hour days at a boat race??? No me!!!!

The Parker Enduro lasted 4 hours and 10 minutes...The Plan was a four hou race....

Several things for Classic Outboards:

Hill Rules:

1. High Point would be High Point
2. Extra points for boats beat.
3. Extra points for laps completed.
4. One set of point per weekend.......(You can have a two day race, but you'll only get one sit of points)...Saturday's race would be a TEST DAY and you could "RACE" but use it as a FUN DAY....Not enough FUN, too much RACING!!!!

We'll see how it goes....Jimbo and I have a Russell Raing Outboards Festival planned...a model of HOW IT SHOULD.....BE...First Annual will be in Needles....

NOTE: NBRA races six heats, all classes together. Just an FYI

Boat racing isn't dying......

ADD; There was a time, when we didn't have to take off Friday to go to a BOAT RACE.... There was a time, when many dads worked a half day, Saturday, to help pay for boat racing. there was a time, when you cold win your Divisionals, get to the Nationals on Thurday night and race, without taking two weeks off work...

[Roy Hodges]

Ron, I have to agree with you. There are dam few new engines even legal in APBA ! With all the crap over on Hydroracer on letting new engines in, it seems they are choking themselves. Just read up on the Tahatsu for D stock and you will know what I mean. And to call a Yamato a new engine.. hmpff. Model 80 has not been built sine the late 60's if memory serves, 102 has been gone for a while, the 302 is available, but not one engine from Yamato is new..... they are are all rejects from their racing program. What does that leave you ?

2 new engines in stock. Tahatsu, which can't compete because of restrictions imposed, and the new Sidewinder (used to be Champion Hot Rods). These hopefully will be available in the next year or two.

Opps, almost forgot one, the Mercuray J class engine. Cost you more to get one and get it going than it would to put together a decent running FEH.... Imagine that.

Ya, no wonder the sport is dying.
I think that there ought to be a local class or 2 that is for guys who want to race, have fun going fast , who cares not a hoot about any DAMNED national points , even local points . it(they) could be an X class , run what you brung , just as long as they have speeds somewhat in common. And, allow NO bullying, rough driving . For gentlemen (ladies,also) only . NO trophies , just (maybe) ribbons , it seems everyone wants to say it's my way or noway. This COULD unify us , instead of pulling us apart.

[Tim Chance]

I think that there ought to be a local class or 2 that is for guys who want to race, have fun going fast , who cares not a hoot about any DAMNED national points , even local points . it(they) could be an X class , run what you brung , just as long as they have speeds somewhat in common. And, allow NO bullying, rough driving . For gentlemen (ladies,also) only . NO trophies , just (maybe) ribbons , it seems everyone wants to say it's my way or noway. This COULD unify us , instead of pulling us apart.
There was a Boy Scout Troup in Minneapolis, MN at one time that did exactly that. They went to a little private lake and put on about 3-4 races per year. I went to and entered a couple of their races. It was real low key and a lot of fun. To add to my previous post, I want to say I have nothing against either a capsule boat or a tunnel. I owned and drove one: 2.4L Mercury on a 17' Seebold. It scared the hell out of me! I loved it! But I don't think capsule and/or tunnel boats belong in the Stock, Mod, or Pro Division.

[Roy Hodges]

What i am suggesting is a class X that excludes capsules in ANY boat , and has nothing to do with OPC , as i have come to hate that division - just for the rich , OR for those who don't mind going broke to race, and after a very short time , find that their boat is an orphan, because his boat class has disappeared .

[sst45jefff]

My understanding is that the 45ss motor originally was built as a stock rope start motor for the stock outboard catogory. They sold several and found that the guys were having to much trouble starting them. So the class was dying. Thats when the starters were put on the motors and sst45 class for OPC was created so they would have a market for the motors they had sitting on the shelf that they couldn't sell.
The stock category was then allowed to run the tunnel in stock so they would have a class for the motors they already owned. Now there is two identical tunnel classses in two seprate categotries.
This is yet another example of how the factory support has hurt boatracing more than helped in my opinion. It is always about selling motors and money to the manufactures.
If they would stick to advertising and stay out of the class structure, it would be better for all of us involved in boat racing.

As far as High Point being the guy who earns the most points in a year. It used to be that way, they found out the High Point Champion was the guy who travelled the most and ran the most races, not the best driver.
That's why it went to being an average of your ten best. You get as many chances as you want to make up your ten best races to bring your average up. In my opinion a better way to find the best driver. Instead of the best traveller.

[Ron Hill]

Knowing that your dad raced before you, even though you are OLD, I think the concept of "Being the best 'Driver' as High Points" is a joke. The best driver wins the NATIONALS...AND winning a Nationals ans National high points, to me, are two totally different awards....

Let's see, Dave Wilson lead Sport C points all year, he didn't do well at the Nationals and the Natiional winner got some race, maybe races together, so he could get points...Where is it written that the National Champion has to be the National High Point???

If you wants points bad enough, like Jimbo use to, you'll drive a few hundred thousand miles....So, you BUY a high point....Every class in APBA is for the "PURIST"...where does the new guy, maybe with money get a chance for "GLORY"????

We have 47 classes and if you read the APBA Propeller, I'll bet you can't tell me four High Point winners ...for sure that are winners...That is SAD!!!

AS I argued with Jerry Waldman, in 1967, the National Championships, by itself, should be one hell of a REWARD.... Getting the most points, should be, the guy who beats the most boats...

Hell, a WFLS win, beat about 20 boats, but you get the same points of some guy is East Jesus, who beats three boats on Saturday and three boats Sunday... There should be a reward for beating more boats....but that would mean, that guys who race against three boats, admits he races against three boats...two of which he also owns...

I don't know, but some how, I think you'd rather be scond in point in the Western Formula Lites Series, than win an APBA High Points with your best ten finishes.....BECAUSE, you know that scoring points in the WFLS isn't easy... Look at us, we won two quailfiers this year, and ended up LAST in points...I give all you who beat the crap out of us, a lot of credit....

But I'll stick with my concept that the gy with the most points is HIGH POINTS...PERIOD...AND you do know, that I am the one who petitioned APBA to start the AVERAGE system...and I did it, so I could WIN!!!!

[sst45jefff]

Knowing that your dad raced before you, even though you are OLD, I think the concept of "Being the best 'Driver' as High Points" is a joke. The best driver wins the NATIONALS...AND winning a Nationals ans National high points, to me, are two totally different awards....

Let's see, Dave Wilson lead Sport C points all year, he didn't do well at the Nationals and the Natiional winner got some race, maybe races together, so he could get points...Where is it written that the National Champion has to be the National High Point???

If you wants points bad enough, like Jimbo use to, you'll drive a few hundred thousand miles....So, you BUY a high point....Every class in APBA is for the "PURIST"...where does the new guy, maybe with money get a chance for "GLORY"????

We have 47 classes and if you read the APBA Propeller, I'll bet you can't tell me four High Point winners ...for sure that are winners...That is SAD!!!

AS I argued with Jerry Waldman, in 1967, the National Championships, by itself, should be one hell of a REWARD.... Getting the most points, should be, the guy who beats the most boats...

Hell, a WFLS win, beat about 20 boats, but you get the same points of some guy is East Jesus, who beats three boats on Saturday and three boats Sunday... There should be a reward for beating more boats....but that would mean, that guys who race against three boats, admits he races against three boats...two of which he also owns...

I don't know, but some how, I think you'd rather be scond in point in the Western Formula Lites Series, than win an APBA High Points with your best ten finishes.....BECAUSE, you know that scoring points in the WFLS isn't easy... Look at us, we won two quailfiers this year, and ended up LAST in points...I give all you who beat the crap out of us, a lot of credit....

But I'll stick with my concept that the gy with the most points is HIGH POINTS...PERIOD...AND you do know, that I am the one who petitioned APBA to start the AVERAGE system...and I did it, so I could WIN!!!!

You are right the High Points and the Nationals are very definatly two diffrent acomplishments.

High points shows consistency wether it be 3 boats in the class or twenty, you still have to beat those other boats more than they beat you.
But it is definatly harder to beat twenty boats consistanly than it is three of the same ones every weekend. So yes maybe there should be more points awarded for beating more boats.

I dont think that the best driver always wins the Nationals. It is one of the best drivers that is there that wins.
It is one race and yes you do have to be very on top of your game to win a National title. But I beleive and I think you would agree, there is more than one guy that is capable of winning the title at every National event.

It is the guy that has his act together and gets a little luck in the way of everything going right or catching a break that wins.
Does it mean he is the best driver ?
Or Is he just as good as a few others and had a little luck go his way that put him on top that paticular weekend ?

Dont get me wrong both in my mind are one hell of an acomplishment.

It is kind of like arguing who is the fastest ?
The guy who sets the kilo record or the guy that sets the competition record.

I have never one a national title, but I have one several High Points and set a few Competition records. I also seem to do all right on the WFL Series consistanly but I can't seem to win a Nationals.

I think I have been to the Nationals 5 times in my life so far and it is just is not going to happen with that kind of track record.
When I had the time I had no money now I have the money and no time.

[Pop990]

i been lucky to win the high points one year and the NATIONALS the next year. the nationals title means the most to me. no i was not the fastest boat that weekend. the powerhead was down on power but drove smart and won. luck helps too.

kevin c

[Mark75H]

I just looked at the APBA High Points for 2006. Of 45 Stock Mod and PRO classes, 35 of the High Point winners (and a number of second place runners up) were won by racers that attended the most amount of races. With no disrespect for these racers, their skill and hard work - for the most part, these "High Points" were simply bought by being able to attend more races than other racers.

Averaging all races (not just some), with some kind of weighting for beating more boats would be a better scheme for a national award ... but again, this would still favor racers who could afford to travel to bigger races. A racer who attends and wins all his local races would be out socred by someone who only travels to bigger races and doesn't support a local club or Region.

If boat racing is to be supported from the bottom up, winning your Regional High Points should be more than winning the National High Points. Attending every local race and if necessary bringing more than one boat in your class would be more beneficial to racing in general.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The Hall of Champions was instituted as a way of recognizing high achieving drivers after Gulf stopped its awards program. It was left up to each individual racing category as to how to pick the award winners. In the Pro category the driver was picked who had the best record in a particular class, AND the winner had to be national champion.

In 1976 I won a World Championship, set a kilo record and a competition record in the same class, but failed to win the Nationals. I did, however, win a nationals in another class. We were never in any high points chase because in Florida they held two separate sanctioned races over the weekend, thus double points....without traveling twice. Bruce Nicholson was one of the picks that year, and Doug Martin the other. Bruce was a perennial Nationals winner, especially after Jerry Simison and Billy Seebold quit. And Doug that year was national champion in J as well as a competion record holder and I think high point as well. Not to take anything away from either of these great drivers, but the level of competion wasn't nearly as high in runabouts and as far a J hydro there were only a couple of dozen drivers in the whole U.S. The nationals was the only J race I saw that year. In other classes we had three or four qualifying heats just to get in the finals and several hundred drivers in each hydro class across the nation.

I was on the PRO racing commission and as no one had any guidelines how to pick the drivers for HOC, we just did it on the fly. I proposed working out a weighted system that would give more points to the classes that were hard fought wins. The task to work that up was given to me.

So what I did was get a tally on the total number of drivers registered in each class and also the total number that attended the Nationals in each class and came up with a formula to be applied to a point system that was awarded to each individual class. I forgot exactly how it worked, but I still have a copy somewhere. I think a flat 100 points were awarded each for a Nationals, a competition and/or kilo record, and high points. An addtional 25 points were awarded if a driver did one or more of these, and an addtional 50 points was given if a driver did one or more of this in the same class. There was no longer a requirment that a winner had to be national champion in the same class as the records were set in, and UIM accomplishments would also be counted.

I don't know how they do it now, and my system did take a little more time so maybe it's been junked. However, it did take into account the level of competition, and something else I have forgotten about how it worked allowed a driver with only one rig have the ability to get into the Hall Of Champions.

[Ron Hill]

I think Ed Hearn "Required" or "Coached" all Divisions to write up their own rule for who will make the Hall of Champions... Like Win a NATIONAlS 2 points, Win a High Point, 2 points...

Sam 35 High Points, by averaging, or just by most points, period?????

The Propeller is only listing points, right???

35 or 45, that is about 77% would be winner of the most races....but to me, EVERYTHING cost money.....the PEOPLE that race the most, want it the most.....

[Pop990]

have 45ss in the stock class help the clubs make more money. help new drivers with more seat time. i think it helped bring the stock and opc drivers closer together.

kevin c

[Ron Hill]

I'd like to see a MOD 45 and drop the SST45. Seems CLASSIC KNEELERS really don't want SST 45.

We could start a LOCAL FORMULA 45 (Club would still get $$).....And we could run 207 blocks, rods with holes and after market pistons... Make a few MODS that aren't really expensive...

Maybe, other areas would like that CONCEPT...

The STOCK NATIONALS 2007 is in Washington, they are planning on 45's running Wednesday, so we can get back to Long Beach for the weekend...

How many 45's will go to a Wednesday Race and then to Long Beach...

I was just thinking out loud...Bill Boyes and I went to the Winter nationals, we picked up a 45 there, but they didn't even schedule SST 45 at the WINTER NATIONALS...

[Miss BK]

In 1976 I won a World Championship, set a kilo record and a competition record in the same class, but failed to win the Nationals. I did, however, win a nationals in another class. We were never in any high points chase because in Florida they held two separate sanctioned races over the weekend, thus double points....without traveling twice. Bruce Nicholson was one of the picks that year, and Doug Martin the other. Bruce was a perennial Nationals winner, especially after Jerry Simison and Billy Seebold quit. And Doug that year was national champion in J as well as a competion record holder and I think high point as well. Not to take anything away from either of these great drivers, but the level of competion wasn't nearly as high in runabouts and as far a J hydro there were only a couple of dozen drivers in the whole U.S. The nationals was the only J race I saw that year. In other classes we had three or four qualifying heats just to get in the finals and several hundred drivers in each hydro class across the nation.
.

A very similar thing happened to my husband, Brad, back in 1987. He was racing Sport C which had the highest number of competitors than any other OPC class at that time. He won 12 of 13 races that year, including the Sprint Nationals & Marathon Nationals. He won high points in both region and US and traveled all across the country by himself. On top of that -- he was driving a boat that he built/designed himself - plus built the boats of a good portion of those racing in these newly developed mini boat classes.

One item not on his list of achievments was setting a record.

Despite his domination of Sport C that year, for some reason, he was not inducted into the Hall of Champions. A long time racer in the then-nearly defunct Sport E class was inducted instead. When Brad questioned the choice, he was told, "You are still young - you'll get plenty more chances".

Business became priority after that and he never got another chance to repeat that season. Passing him up took a lot of the competitive spirit out of him, and he dedicated himself to helping others get to the winners circle after that.

Val

[Pop990]

The STOCK NATIONALS 2007 is in Washington. i will go if i have a class to race against.

[Ron Hill]

We'd just about need to blow a week, to get there and get back for Long Beach...

On this High Point notes, maybe, I just feel bad for Dave Wilson. He worked hard and raced hard all year. He didn't do well at the Nationals.....and then lost, as I understand it High Points at the last minute to the man that won the Nationals...

Dave has 19 races listed...Carl Barrett who will be the High Point Champion has 11 races listed. Carl ran really well, as I saw in the video and I have nothing against him...I just think a guy who has 6539 points and the second place guy has 4644, that the guy with 6539 should be High Point....Trust me, both guys spent about the same amount of cash...

I guess I remember a young driver coming all the way from NorCal to race Indio...He had decided he was good enough to win a Nationals but felt, if he ran every race in the US that he could possibly get to, he COULD be High Point....Once I explained the point system to him, I never saw him again!

When my son was learning Water Polo, they played him if 16 and under and 18 and under...They wanted him to get experience...If you have the burning desire to be good, you'll race a lot...

In a perfect world, well!!!