Hydro or tunnel????

[Damo]

With a 490 or 500cc engine witch would be the faster or better hull Tunnel or Hydro? Here in Australia there is mono's and tunnels but no Hydros but over your side of the pond Hydros are everyware and seem to be doing good speeds. Any feed back would be good.
Thanking you all
Damien :)

[Mark75H]

For shear straightaway speed hydros are always faster, but on a racecourse, not always "better"

It is a mixed situation

[franka]

Yes I agree Hydros are the fastest in a straight line or on a course provided the water is not too rough. In rough water the tunnel would be superior.

[Damo]

Thanks for the info guy's this realy helps
Regards
Damien :D

[f8andbethere]

Yes I agree Hydros are the fastest in a straight line or on a course provided the water is not too rough. In rough water the tunnel would be superior.

Just so we are clear here: The Miss Budweiser (that would be a hydro) pretty much put a whipping on the best that tunnel boats had to offer at Cypress Gardens several years ago.

Dave V. drove the Bud on the same course that the tunnel boats ran on and it was not even a contest.

I don't think many of you tunnel boat guys appreciate the performance of a well tuned hydro. I would match the worst unlimited against the best tunnel boat and it would not be a contest -- the unlimited would win going away.

f/8

[carl lewis]

what was the size of the course at Cypress?

[Skoontz]

It might be very interesting now the modern day outboard power steering is dialed in to put Jimbos 4 engined tunnel against the hydros.

[f8andbethere]

what was the size of the course at Cypress?

I don't know -- my understanding is that it was a "standard" champ boat race course. It was a Budweiser sponsored race and in Bernie's back yard so they had the bud there and Dave drove a couple of exhibition laps. As is the norm, everyone "ASSUMED" that the hydro would be slower around the one-bouy course -- but they put the punch set-up on and while dave drove a wider race track he was still faster.
f/8

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Just so we are clear here: The Miss Budweiser (that would be a hydro) pretty much put a whipping on the best that tunnel boats had to offer at Cypress Gardens several years ago.

Dave V. drove the Bud on the same course that the tunnel boats ran on and it was not even a contest.

I don't think many of you tunnel boat guys appreciate the performance of a well tuned hydro. I would match the worst unlimited against the best tunnel boat and it would not be a contest -- the unlimited would win going away.

f/8

I've driven both successfully. I would never ever attempt to run a hydro in water or in conditions that we raced tunnels.

However, Horsepower versus horsepower, in very calm water, I would run a ghydro. But when there are tunnels & hydros in the same race, you better be in a tunnel. At the OE (mod 50) world championship held in Dayton, OH I believe sometime in the 80's Lee Sutter with a Ron Anderson tuned Mercury Mod 50 on a hydro was clearly the fastest boat, but was unable to compete compeitively against the Tunnels as the water just got rougher & rougher.

Now, to the Unlimited vs the Champ boats at Cypress Gardens. They didn't run side by side. They just compared lap times. The champ boats actually turn at each buoy by setting the boat hard & popping if off the turn. They don't sweep turns very well. The Bud just made the somewhat triangular cours in to a big oval, thus lower lat times. But everyone also should recognize that the champ boats are powered with horsepower of what 300 whereas the Bud is what 3 times that?

[afr]

Yes I agree Hydros are the fastest in a straight line or on a course provided the water is not too rough. In rough water the tunnel would be superior.

what would be to rough for a well tunned hydro and what might some one pay for a rough water purpose built hydro ?

[Tim Chance]

I have driven hydros, runabouts, and tunnel boats. Each one handles different and I wouldn't want to be the oddball running one against a dozen of another. And the term "rough water" is relative. I went to a race in Milwaukee several years ago with a 17' Seebold Tunnel Boat and a 2.4L Mercury. Also on the schedule were 7L Inboards. One chosen Tunnel and one chosen Inboard each made a lap to check the water. Instant "Miller Time". The water was too rough and the race was canceled. Yet there were a lot of sailboats and cabin cruisers on the lake. It wasn't too rough for them.

My guess that the cost to build a "rough water hydro" would be the same as to build a "smooth water hydro" and the "rough water hydro" still wouldn't be able to beat a bunch of tunnels.

[Skoontz]

As I have read through this forum, in days gone by, the rough water hydro was simply a step bottom flat runabout. When I look at the differences in the ways both boats are photographed and have seen each in action, I would find it very difficult to make a rough water hydro, simply because of the design of the boat. It only makes sense that if your boat design is to allow prop riding and the skid fin only touching the water, smoother water would be needed to maintain that balance, or air walk as a hydro so beautifully does. If you mess up the water under the air traps, the lift and various presssures needed to make a hydro work would be violated and cause the boat to be somewhat to not controllable. A tunnel on the other hand has 3 points at the back, uses a combination of air and water at a greated height off the water to lift it out and reduce the friction.

Does that make any sense? I'm only speculating here, but it seems to me it does....Now, I would agree that you could find water a little rougher than excellent hydro water, and not rough enough to slow the hydro down enough for the tunnel to out perform the hydro. Am I all wet here?

[spn#43]

I don't know -- my understanding is that it was a "standard" champ boat race course. It was a Budweiser sponsored race and in Bernie's back yard so they had the bud there and Dave drove a couple of exhibition laps. As is the norm, everyone "ASSUMED" that the hydro would be slower around the one-bouy course -- but they put the punch set-up on and while dave drove a wider race track he was still faster.
f/8

How the hell you can even think of comparing the Unlimited Hydro to a Champ Boat??????
It’s like …….I don’t know ….can’t even think about it…..maybe like Formula 1 car to a Go-Kart????…..it’s just dumb…small very limited V-6 2.5 l 350-380hp to a Unlimited jet engine that is producing few thousand HP?????????....
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Skoontz]

That's why i said earlier that a fair comparison would be to bring Jimbos Unlimited back out with the upgrades to the power steering so he would not have to turn 24 tunrs lock to lock. As I had read from Ron H, Jimbo had to set his turns up about 3/4 of the way down the straights and, the boat had more speed to give. Even with 4 V-8 Evinrudes, lets round up to 400HP each, heck lets call them 450...The power is still less than a helicopter motor in an unlimited. I'm not even sure how one measures displacement on a turbine, but, I'm betting the displacement would be way unbalanced as well.

How about comparing an unlimited light, less the blower, so lets allow up to a 500 cubic inch motor, naturally aspirated. And lets take the F-1 Merc or an old V-8 OMC, you pick...Then lets run boat to boat. And lets make that a 50 lap feature on a 2.1 mile course with one manditory pit stop. Say, Mission Bay. And lets see who gets towed across the finish line.

[Tim Chance]

In the following we are truly comparing apples to oranges. Because they grow apples in Washington state and oranges in Florida.

At Yelm, Washington (apples) a Champ Boat with a 2.5 L Mercury set a 5 mile three lap record at 101.36 mph.

At Lakeland, Florida (oranges) a 500ccH with a .5 L Yamato set a 5 mile three lap record at 104.35 mph.

But I would say if you put six of each into the same race that positions 1 through 6 would be Tunnel Boats and there wouldn't be any 7 through 12 because all the Hydro drivers would be in dry clothes, loaded up, headed home.

[f8andbethere]

And if you bet the ranch you'd be sleeping the street.

The first thing that you don't have a clue about is how much the unlimiteds tear up the water. A tunnel boat would be upside down probably before the start of the race if not within the first three laps;

Second thing that perhaps you are unaware of, is that the turbines can live in the salt water for 50 laps -- just ask some of the offshore guys. This is just a matter of technology. Currently the uboat guys don't have to go more than five laps -- but they could go as far as they have to and still kick the tunnel boat up one side and down the other.

As for the difference in horsepower, etc -- I totally admit that the tunnelboats are at a significant disadvantage -- but like Dave V. in the tunnel boat -- all we have heard is how great the tunnel boats turn and how an unlimited would never be competitive.

Well it just is not true. The tunnel boats are amazing race craft but like most folks, they just don't understand how fast a really good unlimited is.

f/8

[Skoontz]

Then you have to compare Jimbo's 4 engined V-8 Evinrude tunnel, with modern day steering. And, there is no way to compare effectively, which reminds me of 5 school aged boys standing on the Fox River banks and seeing how far the next tinkles into the river. Since there are no more unlimited sized tunnel boats, you have to downsize the unlimited to the unlimited light, which is really nothing more than a glorified 7 liter hydro, yuppified with a capsule and modern day bells and whistles. So, take the unlimited light, naturally aspirated, or use the blower if you want, but take cubic inch to cubic inch, with horsepower limitations not to vary one from the next more than 75. Now you have a fair race. Or, do this. Make an unlimited light outboard powered boat. Then get yerself whosever champ boat brand you want. Choose whosever power you want, as long as the engine on each boat is identical. With comparable dyno readings. Then go race. Now you have an apple to apple comparison. Change the water conditions from a 2" ripple to what is called rough by hydro standards....

It would be a very fun comparison.....

[afr]

so it sound,s like it really aint a big deal to make a hydro run open water
but i dont ever recall seeing them in marathon fl did the run key west
also sounds like we need a match race here to find out

[spn#43]

but they could go as far as they have to and still kick the tunnel boat up one side and down the other.
f/8

LoL……nobody said F-1 boat is faster then Unlimited Hydro….:eek: what is wrong with you?:confused: :confused: …..Record speed of F-1 boat is 162 mph and in the race about 120-130 mph and Unlimited Hydro can go way over 200 mph on any given day……it’s just dumb to compare the two, but I would love to see Unlimited Hydro beat a Champ Boat at Kankakee or Bay City or something like that…..No F..n WAY!
I’m done with this it’s like elementary school argument.:rolleyes:
PS; Superman would whoop Spiderman’s ass……lol;) :p

[JohnsonM50]

This is cool :cool: I dont have any to add but am reading...:confused: ;)

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

RichardKCMo

Not sure that he is

[afr]

hydros are hands down the best driving boat i have ever drove
tunnels or just ok not the same feel at all

[JohnsonM50]

I sure like drivin mine, [theres no wooo hoooo! icon] :D

[JohnsonM50]

Not sure that he is
Who Meee? Im not too sure either :eek: :eek: :confused: Ive asked under 5th graders for computer help B 4 :D

[Tim Chance]

Damien asks a simple question of how a 500 cc stock motor would perform on a hydro and suddenly the thread turns into a comparison of a Champ Boat to an Unlimited. Isn't that comparison kind of like asking what would do better in a demolition derby, a Porsche or a Peterbuilt?

To get back to the original question, in my opinion a 35 - 40 horsepower stock motor with a gearshift lower unit like on your green boat isn't going to do very well on a hydro.

[f8andbethere]

So the thread is hijacked -- sorry it is what it is.

Now with respect to an unlimited running in an ocean -- ain't going to happen. Agreed. These are not ocean racers.

However, that being said, they will run in flat nasty water -- just take a look at the Detroit River sometimes. Muncey said you never beat the Detroit River and more often than not when they are done with race in Detroit there is lots of broken boats caused by the river.

An unlimited at Kankakee -- no question it is a bit tight -- but with the right driver the tunnel boat would never make the start -- he would be upside down and if not at the start then within the first lap.

You have no idea what a large wake these boats make. No doubt the unlimited would have an issue getting around the pit turn -- but if you put in even a 400 foot radius turn on the other end of the course -- it is game over.

Cubic dollars always beats cubic horsepower and the unlimiteds have both compared to a champ boat. It is as simple as that.

f/8

[afr]

so whats that work out to a 1/4 mile wide turn maybe an 8th
what,s the best size lake area or harbour for an unlimited to run a true oval coarse in

man the way they take waves its like there invincible rides on the water
nothings no wave or wake changes the way you got her pointed it just goes

i just dont get why they wouldnt run open water im not talking about way off shore racing is it just because of wind changes maybe or is that slow roller wave that will get ya to take a hop
seems they could be a nascar type flap or chute on the sponsons somthing on there to keep it from comming off the water so high what twice as long as the boat is high ive seen
all that money and they still wreckem maybe it would save some boats and money
and open up more markets and bring in more teams (just thinking out loud )

now a spin thats a spin

[Damo]

Damien asks a simple question of how a 500 cc stock motor would perform on a hydro and suddenly the thread turns into a comparison of a Champ Boat to an Unlimited. Isn't that comparison kind of like asking what would do better in a demolition derby, a Porsche or a Peterbuilt?

To get back to the original question, in my opinion a 35 - 40 horsepower stock motor with a gearshift lower unit like on your green boat isn't going to do very well on a hydro.

Thanks Tim for your thourghts and opinion on the lower hp, Made into a good read!
Cheers
Damien

[cnunez55]

In the following we are truly comparing apples to oranges. Because they grow apples in Washington state and oranges in Florida.

At Yelm, Washington (apples) a Champ Boat with a 2.5 L Mercury set a 5 mile three lap record at 101.36 mph.

At Lakeland, Florida (oranges) a 500ccH with a .5 L Yamato set a 5 mile three lap record at 104.35 mph.

But I would say if you put six of each into the same race that positions 1 through 6 would be Tunnel Boats and there wouldn't be any 7 through 12 because all the Hydro drivers would be in dry clothes, loaded up, headed home.

I don't think the champs were running the 2.5's in 98 yet. If so it was probably still in stock form, about 3 to 4 seconds a lap off. but lets say they were' tim and mike were dominating with foster and cambell on there hills, Where was bruce? I would guess the record would be shattered if it were attempted today! I would have to say around 115 or more.

[smittythewelder]

My two cents, Damo: Hydros will actually run over surprisingly big chop, if you have the nerve to squeeze the throttle and fly the boat over the top of the stuff instead of being hesitant with the throttle and letting the boat bash its way over the stuff. Duane Wallick taught me this in my first year racing, about a hundred years ago. I think the best hydro design for doing this has deep sponsons, like the old Hal Kelly Jupiter (which was a lousy boat without some modifications). Many hydros have a problem if the water is too smooth, such as when testing alone on a calm day at the lake; some of the old U-boats tended to "stick" to the glassy water, whereas a lot of outboard hydros want to blow over in the same conditions.

But hydros don't handle rollers well at all. Pleasure boat wakes, wash-back from log-booms, or even the wakes of the boats ahead of you, which seem to combine to leave big holes and trenches in the course. This is one of the two places that the tunnel boats shine. The first ride a hydro man takes in a tunnel boat is a real eye-opener. You go blasting over water that is a heaving mess left by all of the other boats out testing, then you get to the pin, puch the kick-in button, and grab handfuls of steering wheel as fast as you can, and WHAM, you're pointed the other direction! Leland Schmidt and Davy Losvar were the two guys who supplied me with this experience.

In my hazy memory, there have been at least two tunnel boats besides the one mentioned above built for Unlimited racing. Chuck Hickling built one powered by a Rolls Merlin, and there was another, powered by three big outdrives. When I saw this latter boat, it was in Dave Culley's shop, the factory people having failed to make a decent showing with it, they gave it to a former top Unlimited crew chief to see if he could get anything out of it. Now as I recall it, the boat was steered with a rudder and the outdrives were fixed. Dave said they were cracking gearcases left and right. I said, well maybe the side-loading of the gearcases by their skegs when turning was causing the cracking, and since the skegs weren't being used to steer the boat anyway, why not saw them off short and see if that stops the cracking? Well, he did, and it did stop the cracking, but the boat never did become a competitor. Could a tunnel boat with U-boat power regularly beat the hydros on their regular courses? I doubt it, but this is a long way from being proved, yet.

Back to incredible tight turns of the tunnels . . . there is a catch. There's no way to make a boat carve a turn like that without rubbing off a lot of boat speed, and tunnel boats need all the torque of their big motors to accelerate out of the tight turns they make. Tight turns seem to be what they do best; a hydro won't touch a tunnel on a narrow river course. What hydros do better than tunnels is sweeping turns. Properly set up so that the fin hooks up and holds the inside sponson down so that the hull has air under it all the way around the turn, a hydro will outrun anything around a typical three-bouy corner. Watch videos of the U-boats, which can pull something like 6Gs as an ocean of water comes off the fin, while keeping "aired-out" the whole time. By not scrubbing off a lot of speed in super-tight corners, hydros don't have to have motors with broad powerbands to accelerate back to straightaway speed. If it weren't for this property of hydros, the highwinding, low torque, narrow powerband engines used in the smaller classes of PRO outboard racing would not turn such impressive lap times as they do.

This leaves racing runabouts, and their advantage is that only REAL MEN get the most out of them, or even try, . . . or so the runabout drivers will tell you.

[afr]

Smitty i had mine turning almost as good as a tunnel with no fin also
but didn't do real bad but not good over wakes and a 1 to 2 foot chop
plus we get waves bouncing off the sea walls and it makes a criss cross returning wave almost like tic tack toe but on a angle i could cut right thru on all three points as long as i was around half throttle
the only way i could get it to run flat out was to fly the nose and on the gas and build a pad bottom
but it cost me in the turn now
everything has a trade off
oh well

[Mark75H]

Smitty i had mine turning almost as good as a tunnel with no fin

Have you ever driven a racing tunnel?

[afr]

not a little one
offshore tunnel yes i have driven one
well i quess or it felt like it was almost as good as a tunnel
i have not seen a f 1 tunnel first hand in about 15 18 years
it was key largo blackwater sound i forget the year
i was close
felt like maybe 1.5 to 2 g,s in the corners
if thats close
but not with that pad bottom on it

[smittythewelder]

Sam's right, Damo; the way a tunnel will whip around a tight turn is a mind-blower. In fact I'm sure I couldn't physically handle trying to race a modern tunnel of any class for a full heat, even though they ride so nice down the straights.

[cnunez55]

not a little one
offshore tunnel yes i have driven one
well i quess or it felt like it was almost as good as a tunnel
i have not seen a f 1 tunnel first hand in about 15 18 years
it was key largo blackwater sound i forget the year
i was close
felt like maybe 1.5 to 2 g,s in the corners
if thats close
but not with that pad bottom on it

The new tunnels pull 4 1/2 to 5 g's in a corner. Garrett Armstrong had a g meter in his boats. Yes they do scrubb alot of speed but I never get below 6000 rpm's in mine.

The current outboard speed record is held by a hydro that second effort put with a V8 Evinrude. 176.556mph. A few years before it was set in a tunnel boat at 169 or 171 I think. The driver was Gene Thibidoux. A little bit slower!

As a former stock and mod hydro driver,who drove everything from the kids class to formula E or super E what ever you want to call it, the feel of a tunnel boat is unmatched. Your firt time to open it up you feel like your 4 foot off the water unlike in a hydro. The first time you go into a turn your hooked.

[afr]

ill give yea the hooked part
cause i am
i might have a tunnel now i might be able to wittle a sst 60 out of it maybe

[afr]

oh im waiting on my rule book

[cnunez55]

ill give yea the hooked part
cause i am
i might have a tunnel now i might be able to wittle a sst 60 out of it maybe

The 60's are the worst handeling tunnel boat there is. They have abig gear case the prop turns right handed. Youcould pick up a 120 for pretty cheep. Randy Rinker has a composit Seebold just like mine for sale. He runs a champboat now so he is trying to get rid of it.

[Tim Chance]

I ran hydros and runabouts for years-and-years-and-years. Then in the late 80's and early 90's I ran tunnel boats for a couple of years - a 17' Seebold with a 2.4L Mercury. I ran some local races, a few IOGP races and Havasau. I'll never forget the first time I turned the tunnel "the right way", foot to the floor, coming up on the turn bouy, hit the trim switch and crank the wheel hard left. Wow! What a sensation.

I never once during my tunnel boat times thought "Gee, I wish I was in a hydro."

Now after 16 years I'm back in a boat again and I just ran at the Pro Nationals in Depue. I ran a 250 c.c. Pro Runabout.

Out of everything I've raced over the past six decades, my choices are: First - Pro Runabout. Second - Tunnel. Third - Pro Hydro. There is no 4th.

[afr]

so i might can widdle it into a 120 as well
how long are they and what is the rule on the air trap
i should have the rule book soon

[spn43]

Composite Seebold is not gonna be cheap at all,….it’s great boat but definitely not cheap.
Don’t get me wrong if you can afford it ….composite is way to go but they get pricey.

[afr]

yea it looks like theres not much i can do with this little tunnel
so im back to the drawing board
the only way im going to get into one is build it myself
but i need some one like tim help to draw it up or rinker
or ill get that program on tunnel design
did you ever get your wrecked hull back
there is one in st pete fl
but its old and all wood and been outside

[David Mason]

Why not buy a set of plans and build one ? Marc Johnson (MJR Composites) might be able to hook you up on some out of this world drawings. He sells plans for Mod/Pro/Stock and his boats have won a title in just about everything. I know he is into tunnel boat design as well, so maybe you can talk him into a set of SST 120 plans ?? He is a member on this board.

[smittythewelder]

Tim, you've been around a while, I believe. Do you remember the old Yamaha advertising slogan of the Seventies, "Different Strokes for Different Folks"? Yamaha was building both two and four-stroke street bikes at the time, but the slogan was quickly applied to no end of other subjects. I'll apply it here to raceboats. "Different Strokes for Different Folks," meaning it is good that we have a lot of different boat configurations, each with its own attributes, each with its own crowd of enthusiasts. Discussing whether one hull type or another works best in particular conditions is fine, and stating our preferences (mine will always be for hydros, esp. PRO hydros) is okay, too. I just hope we don't ever start arguing about which design is "best." For a long time, Harley riders used to tell everybody, "If you don't ride a Harley, you ain't bleep!", and of course the sport-bikers thought the Hawgs were a big joke. Fortunately for motorcycling, those in-yo-face attitudes seem to be fading. I just hope boatracing never tolerates such attitudes. Variety is the spice of life.

[Tim Chance]

Harley riders used to tell everybody, "If you don't ride a Harley, you ain't bleep!", and of course the sport-bikers thought the Hawgs were a big joke. Fortunately for motorcycling, those in-yo-face attitudes seem to be fading. I just hope boatracing never tolerates such attitudes. Variety is the spice of life.

I agree, I was just stating what I liked best. I'm not saying anything else is wrong, it's just not for me. Kind of like I like Fords better than Chevys; but I drive a Kia because I'm a cheapskate.

[smittythewelder]

Oops, I got clumsy with my wording. I didn't mean or think that YOU were selling too hard. Actually, I had the idea that of those of us posting to this thread, you might be the only other guy old enough to remember those "Different Strokes" ads. (P.S., didja like my remark about runabouts and Real Men??).

[anzaniwest]

Actually I had the best seat for this Mercury vs. OMC bragging right. The Merc Mod-50 powered A&H Hydro won at Dayton...The boat was built just for this race and weighed about 125 lbs. The powerhead was mounted on "D" Merc center section with a "D" lower unit. Get this, the props (only 2) were Michigan "D" hubs with 3 blades welded in positioned and R.Allen Smith finished them to 7x13" and 13 1/2". The props were too small, but it had plenty of punch. Enough to win the 1st heat and cruise in at 3rd in the 2nd -National Champion!!! Jimbo came in 2nd. The hydro and Jimbo's tunnel went the same speend on top end, but the hydro was way faster in the corners. But, Dayton was real smooth with big turns. OH, it ran the same speed as our 350 Hydro!!!

[crfabbro]

I was at that race and the thing I remmber most was the hydro
team was pitted up on the bank what seemed a mile away from
the other teams! It was like they were party crashers.

[NW Racing]

Thanks for the info guy's this realy helps
Regards
Damien :D
Is that what u race for junior

[Damo]

Hi there NW Racing.
6, 9 and 15hp motors are our junior racing classes the boat that Im in naw is a 25hp.This is our entry into the senior racing but as it turns out we have alot of experenced racers coming into this class because of the afordability etc. I guess you could say it's the same as the Selvia 25's you guy's run there.
Cheers
Damo :D

[Sutter's Gold Jr.]

Here is a picture of the boat that John S and Lee S (AnzaniWest) reference. Some more commentary from Lee below. He told me that OMC guys tried to block him at start but the hydro had so much punch that he got to 1st turn even with Jimbo and kept accelerating around corner while Jimbo had set boat. When they came out of corner he was 50 feet ahead.

I have only one (1) picture that shows the Mod-50 A&H Hydro at the Dayton National Championships. The picture is from an elevated dock and the boat is on stand with the bow in the water.

"Chris, I don’t know if you remember this boat as this was built to look like my 350 Hydro and Ron’s 250 Hydro? We didn’t want anyone (OMC) to know we were running a hydro at Dayton. The class was 100% tunnels. This was one of those projects that had a real purpose!!! OMC had a stronger engine then Mercury and Jimbo and Jeff Brown had factory Mod-50 tunnels that dominated the class. Mercury (Gary G) asked Ron Anderson, Bob Hering, and I if we could build a hydro to go beat the OMC’s at the Dayton Nationals. We agreed!

Ron and Bobby built the boat at Ron’s, put the Mod-50 power head on a Mercury “D” tower housing and used a “D” gear case. We built two props by cutting a blade off a 2 blade “D” Michigan prop and welding 2 blades back on the hub – bingo, the first 3 blade Michigan ever!!! No stock or Alky guys used 3 blade props at that time!!! Then, I sent the props to R. Allen Smith in Louisiana (my prop guy) who made to the specs we thought would work. 6/3/4” diameter x 12 ½” Pitch. Bob Hetzel at Mercury really helped with the props. In fact, he did all the tough stuff with the support of Dick Snyder at Mercury.

We tested it at Kaukauna, WI. along with all the alky equipment. We tested for two days 2 weeks before the Alky Nationals and the Dayton race was the week following. We tested the 250 runabout, 250 hydro, 350 hydro, and the Mod 50 project. It went 93 MPH on the first pass and 95 MPH on the second. It vibrated really bad, had way too much acceleration. Funny thing is, it went the same speed as my 350 hydro.

You should have seen to look on Jack Leeks face when we unloaded the hydro off the trailer. As he thought it was one of our Alky boats. WE Won!!! And, Mercury took all the equipment away from us the next week.

[J-Dub]

Is that the same engine Dick Rautenberg bought from Ron? If so, I will send you a picture of it!
It no longer has electric start but the rest is the same.

J-Dub

[Yodaddy]

Different forum same old ****.:D

[Mark75H]

93 and 95 mph, it should have been a competitive Formula E motor sometime during its lifetime

[MN1]

I saw the A & H hydro run in Mod 50 at Dayton too. But for some reason I could have sworn that it had a fabricated aluminum sheet mid. And not a cast aluminum mid like used on the D Merc. I sort of remember it being bent and the welds open and the lower unit kind of tilted after the race. I could be wrong but I do know it was very fast!!!
Mark N

[anzaniwest]

Hey!!!

In my opinion, on a nice day, I don't think a 400 HP tunnel boat can beat an Unlimited Hydro on a 1 1/4 mile oval course!!! In fact, I don't think a tunnel could beat a 500CC Hydro (one for the PROS) on an oval. The reason, is that the Hydros can haul the mail around and out of wider corners and tunnels get all crossed up and climb or drop. I'm not talking tight turns and rough water - Just, Nice and Smooth!!!

How about a alky burning V-6 or V-8 (500HP) on a carbon fiber laydown hydro??? I don't know the weights or power well, but try this.

Unlimited: 3,000 HP to 6,000LBS,
Tunnel Boat: 350 HP to 1,300LBS,
500 Hydro: 200 HP to 500LBS, and
My boat: 500+ HP to 900LBS

This is nut's because, they are all really fast.....

Just another point of view!!!!

But, I liked by BU best!!!

[Roy Hodges]

Hey!!!

In my opinion, on a nice day, I don't think a 400 HP tunnel boat can beat an Unlimited Hydro on a 1 1/4 mile oval course!!! In fact, I don't think a tunnel could beat a 500CC Hydro (one for the PROS) on an oval. The reason, is that the Hydros can haul the mail around and out of wider corners and tunnels get all crossed up and climb or drop. I'm not talking tight turns and rough water - Just, Nice and Smooth!!!

How about a alky burning V-6 or V-8 (500HP) on a carbon fiber laydown hydro??? I don't know the weights or power well, but try this.

Unlimited: 3,000 HP to 6,000LBS,
Tunnel Boat: 350 HP to 1,300LBS,
500 Hydro: 200 HP to 500LBS, and
My boat: 500+ HP to 900LBS

This is nut's because, they are all really fast.....

Just another point of view!!!!

But, I liked by BU best!!!

With 500 plus , your boat will win any race .

[J-Dub]

For entertainment, I will toss a few things/facts/experiences out here... As I sat at the Budwieser Dyno facility myself, an average Unlimited engine puts out about 2750 hp. Better ones will produce more... Duh! The more torque in a race motor will do better than others... Duh!
I had a great great view of Inboards, Tunnels (V-6) and an Unlimited on the same 1 mile or so OVAL coarse. The 5 litres and the OPC's ran in the mid 40 second times. The Unlimited ran the same coarse in under 30... I know the Unlimited could have been faster if the judges stand was further away! The reason I know this is, I was driving the Unlimited.

J-Dub
-->See Avtar... I am not prejudice either... I blew a Champ over too!

[spn43]

Just, Nice and Smooth!!!

If is nice and smooth it aint a race boat and sure it's not fun....:D
PS; Top Champ is more like 380-400hp @ 1150lb and true F-1 boat even more

[anzaniwest]

Bill Seebld and I talked over the telephone after the race. He was REALLY IMPRESSED WITH MISS BUD DURING THAT DEMONSTRATION RUN. He did bring up the rev limiter.... ya, ya, and ya.... Alway a boat racer!!!!

[spn43]

One more thing....F-1 boat will beat anything on a F-1 boat race course and Unlimited Hydro will beat anything on a Hydro course, and unlimited offshore will beat anything on a offshore course....so it's apples and oranges....;)

[Roy Hodges]

I saw the A & H hydro run in Mod 50 at Dayton too. But for some reason I could have sworn that it had a fabricated aluminum sheet mid. And not a cast aluminum mid like used on the D Merc. I sort of remember it being bent and the welds open and the lower unit kind of tilted after the race. I could be wrong but I do know it was very fast!!!
Mark N..............................
I was there too. I would have sworn the tower housing was fabricated from stainless steel. But, that would be heavy (thickness for thickness; ) about twice that of aluminum . But, they're both shiny , from a short distance might look almost the same . It was NOT a cast factory made ,like a MK55h. I heard the "racers" talking to a Michigan prop man , about their 3 blade "fabricated " prop. I also heard Tom Ireland tell the omc drivers- "mod 50"- that if the merc Hydro gets in the lead "it's over !". Guess what ? he was right !

[anzaniwest]

One more thing....F-1 boat will beat anything on a F-1 boat race course and Unlimited Hydro will beat anything on a Hydro course, and unlimited offshore will beat anything on a offshore coarse....so it's apples and oranges....;)

I'm not sure if I'm working this machine correctly???

Apples & Oranges.....Thats why it's such a good debate!!! We all know that each class of boat would excel on under cetain cicumstances. For example, I raced several times in Paris 6 hour race. The only boat that could have won was a Formula 1 Tunnel boat. No Alky, Inboard Hydro, or Unlimided driver would even race due to the miserable and rough conditions. OPC Wins!!!

OMC and Mercury take on the piston powered Unlimiteds (no Mercury team driver paticipated) and lose. Why, wrong boat for the course. But, if they would have build a Hydro??? Unlimited Wins!!!

Did Stover Hire really win seven National Championships in BU??

[spn43]

Ok I’ll try to solve the puzzle …
Say we have Unlimited Hydro, Unlimited Offshore, Unlimited Drag and Formula 1 tunnel…..first race at San Diego Unlimited Hydro race course 5 lap race….Hydro is 1st Offshore is 2nd F-1 is 3rd and Drag is 4th with only lap or 2 before big explosion …..next race, Offshore race at say….Key West FL what ever laps they run there….Offshore is 1st by a county 2nd….hmmmm I can’t see Hydro running at any decent speed there, so F-1 is 2nd Hydro 3 and Drag…..stays on the trailer….next is a drag strip…..Drag 1st, F-1 2nd, Offshore 3rd and Hydro 4th…..and for finish we go to Kankakee for a 50 lap F-1 boat race ……F-1 boat 1st by a State….Drag 2nd making only 2 or 3 laps before blowing and making nice fire works offshore 3rd by a virtue of beating hydro to the 1st turn and getting stuck there and hydro at nice 4th place…..so lets do the math…..1st 40 points 2nd 30 and so on…..
1st Formula 1 boat 120 pts
2nd Offshore 110 pts
3rd Drag 90 pts
4th Hydro 80 pts
apples and oranges!!!!....My IQ score just went waaaaay down by getting sucked in to this nonsense…..:(:eek::)

[J-Dub]

Come on! I'll give you Kankakee... At 4.3 gallons per minute I would need a pitstop or two... Although I have never been there it sounds pretty tight. Tighter than Valleyfield and Phoenix I assume. Without the fuel Stops we could have a good race. As for the Key West race, anything over about a 3' chop I will be on the trailer with the drag boat guys drinking some beer! I do recall a champ boat race in Vegas in '97 where there was more carnage than finishers... Drag boats are friggin cool too! But they were never in tended to turn, at least on purpose…
Here are my calculations:
San Diego:
H- 40
O- 30
T- 20
D- 10 after a few pit stops for fuel and bearings

Key West:
O- 40
T- DNF
H- DNS
D- DNS

Kankakee:
T- 40
H- 30
O- 20
D- 10 after a few pit stops for fuel and bearings

Red Bluff:
D- 40
T- 30
H- 20
O- 10

Totals:
Offshore: 100
Tunnel: 90
Hydro: 90
Drag: 60

Looks like we are all pretty cool!