Let's Talk Fuel, Here!!!

[Ron Hill]

I bought gas in Bakerfield for $2.75 a gallon. But to be legal I had to run $10.00 a gallon Race Gas....Hell-o...What is going on?


Brian Tharp brought $200 worth of RACE GAS, it passed in the morning and he got DQ'd in the evening... I had to loan him gas for SUNDAY...

There something wrong here!

[Roy Hodges]

There are NO excuses for a fiasco such as this . Totally inexcusable & beneath contempt. Something better has to be found . Something infalable .

[tthibodaux]

Did they make you guys buy the gas at the race??:confused:

[Ron Hill]

At all races but Champiuonships, fuel of the day is fine...For a Championship, you must meet the meter....Last year Lance haslrig gave me 5 gallons of fuel, but I knew the inboards were coming this weekend...So I bought VP Race fuel...But I was warned it may not pass...

[carl lewis]

Not to worry Ron,
90% of the gas stations in Moses Lake for the 2007 stock nationals have way legal fuel.

Carl

[Jeff Akers]

I got mine from Todd Cragin( region 10) It passed:D

There was some last minute thrashing to find legal fuel for many of us Californians.....:( I got lucky when Todd said he had some extra gas....although it was in Dave Andersons gas can :confused: :D LOL!

[David Weaver]

Methanol or Ethanol......does anyone see the gasoline sitaution changing for the better in the foreseeable future????

There is no room for cheating in this sport, but I feel for all the drivers in the past several years that have innocently fallen victim to improper pump gas that is sold locally.

In that time, I have not seen one class that utilizes methanol have a similar problem:rolleyes: :) :rolleyes:

[tthibodaux]

I had fuel in Rainbow City Alabama that I purchased at the race sponsoring Citco up the road from the race and it didn't pass. After I added oil it passed. I think from time to time the person checking the fuel just doesn't have a clue.:D

[Steveracer]

When I asked Roger Carr on Friday, he said exactly what Ron said. The gas only had to pass the meter for the Winternationals. The other heats were covered under the gas of the day rule (the local Chevron at the top of the hill). We just ran to the airport and picked up some AV Gas and it passed with flying colors. BTW it was only $6.00 per gallon. It only took them about an hour or two to get it. I think next time, I'm going to get a 55 gal drum and bring it to the races and sell it to help pay for the weekend.

As for the people checking the gas, they are just following the rule book and using the approved testing methods and meters. It isn't a poeple issue, it's a rule issue.

[David Mason]

I had fuel in Rainbow City Alabama that I purchased at the race sponsoring Citco up the road from the race and it didn't pass. After I added oil it passed. I think from time to time the person checking the fuel just doesn't have a clue.:D

One of the best places to race indeed. I was there for that Nat's, I ran SEH and E hydro. Ran up front in the SEH, but me and Newman (now SST120) had a hell of a battle going on for first, wide open race and neither of us backing off to give an inch. He got me at the finish, only to find out we both jumped the stupid gun !! Oh well. Rainbow City is a great place.

What class did you run there ?

[Ron Hill]

At San Diego, our gas passed and our oil passed, but mixed it didn't...

I hope no one got the idea I was blaming ANY OFFICIAL...We, in Region 12, are lucky to have Roger Carr working for Boat Racing...

I guess, what I've saying, is gas with alcohol, isn't just a California problem anymore...

I think, even for a Nationals, GAS of the Day should be allowed...

[Mark75H]

I agree. I think it is time for those influencing APBA policy to admit that 10%-15% alcohol is going to be common and it should be legal as sold locally and nation wide.

I will admit that this adds to inspection and testing difficulties, but it is a feature of our times.

[tthibodaux]

One of the best places to race indeed. I was there for that Nat's, I ran SEH and E hydro. Ran up front in the SEH, but me and Newman (now SST120) had a hell of a battle going on for first, wide open race and neither of us backing off to give an inch. He got me at the finish, only to find out we both jumped the stupid gun !! Oh well. Rainbow City is a great place.

What class did you run there ?It was the only time I have ever raced there 1994. I ran Y80/102 and B1 rb. That was the first weekend for me to run my new Zorkin and dang it was fast. Don't remember about Y80 or 102 but I won the first heat of B1 and Estel jumped the second:D so, I WIN..;) By the way, the B1 belonged to Jimmy Colvin and man it was BAD FAST..

[tthibodaux]

AOF Nationals or AOF race? :confused: The 1994 AOF Nationals were in Pineville, LA. The AOF Nationals were in Rainbow City, AL in 1997 and 1998.Short coarse nationals. 94

[tthibodaux]

The race I was talking about was in Scottsboro Alabama not Rainbow City. :eek: oops.:D Anyway, the fuel thing still stands.;) I was in Rainbow City for the Nationals 97, Rain all weekend. Good racing but wet.

[Tim Chance]

Anyone who has followed my recent posts know that I am coming out of hibernation as a race driver. Although I have raced some Mod, Stock and OPC I am really a Pro driver. I did a quick count in my head and I believe I've had 17 different Konigs', so that should qualify me to be in the Pro camp.

For my return I have chosen to run Mod. Why Mod? It races close to home. But this fuel thing really bothers me. Methanol is methanol.Gas isn't gas.

There is a speed shop about 2 miles from my house that sells VP racing gas. That is what I intend on running. I'm putting quit a bit of money in this 3-cyl E motor. I know my temperament and the first time I flunk a fuel test will be the last time. That OMC will never get a rope put to it again and I will never to to a Mod race again - believe me I know how I can over react. My Super E boat is also a 250 Pro boat. I'm looking at a couple of different 250 Pro motors right now as insurance.

I hope someone gets this fuel situation straightened out.

[Fast Fred]

can't believe you guys run pump pee in your outboards.:eek:

[Fast Fred]

if it runs on pump wee, i will be a dog with VP-C-12:eek:

[Mark75H]

I have never been to a race where the inspector did not allow you to test your fuel before a race ... I've also never had the bad luck to have brought any gas to a race that was even close to the legal conductivity limit ... but it is bound to happen some time.

My favorite FE motor won't run on pump gas anyway, so I know I am good with fuel for it at each race.

[Roy Hodges]

can someone tell me what the octane rating of vp-c 12 is ?
thanks ................

[Mark75H]

C12
Recommended for CRs below 15:1, satisfying the needs of 75% of today's race engines.

• Color: Green
• Motor Octane: 108
• Specific gravity: .717 at 60° F

[Roy Hodges]

I wonder how much in common the vp-c12 has with the good ole 100-130 AVIATION fuel (green colored also )

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

Personally, I run Citgo 110 octane leaded racing fuel in all of my engines, stock and mod. And, it has always improved performance and has always passed the meter test. The unleaded does not pass the meter test however. The only engine that slowed down from using this fuel is the OMC "A" motor, which I then ran 89 octate pump gas.

[Ron Hill]

Specific gravity: .717 at 60° F ???

I heard, today, that fuel should be tested at 60 degrees... When your fuel is questioned, can you say go put it in the cooler and get it to 60 degree???

Dumb question but what does specific gravity mean???

[Fast Fred]

I have never been to a race where the inspector did not allow you to test your fuel before a race . well kinda seen some thing close to that,
once.
can you say go put it in the cooler and get it to 60 degree???
I asked that Q, they said "NO" chance that would be allowed.:eek:

red, red 110, not gas, FUEL. gas is for the mower.:eek:

[Fast Fred]

Dumb question but what does specific gravity mean???
lets see if i know,

viscosity, oil would have a high SG, gas bein thiner would be lower.
from thare , to do with carb size to the size of the ventury .:eek:

[Mark75H]

Specific gravity: .717 at 60° F ???

I heard, today, that fuel should be tested at 60 degrees... When your fuel is questioned, can you say go put it in the cooler and get it to 60 degree???

Dumb question but what does specific gravity mean???

Specific gravity means density .... the specific gravity number is the weight compared to the same volume of water. The reason 60° is used is to standarize the measurements because volume changes a little with temperature. Density isn't going to be out of APBA spec unless you choose gas that was out of spec to begin with or have added some weird single ingredient to your gas (NOT oil or anything normally found in oil)

Not sure about anything Fred said ... doesn't translate well enough with my translation software

[Fast Fred]

ya, said the same thing you said ,but less. as I remember, "They" said "NO" to us (SLT's) on coolin down fuel to be tested.


sidebar
and what is the carb doin, liftin the gas or fuel from the bowl to the ventury.

[tthibodaux]

What if the fuel is already cold? My dad always about 30 min before a heat put the fuel in a one gal can and put it on ice. I only had the one case of fuel not passin but would they test it already cold?

[David Mason]

I have been DQ'd one time for fuel, this was last year at the NBRA short course Nat's. They bent over backwards for me to try and get it legal, because they know I ain't cheating. Never have never will. I don't like cheaters, never have, never will. I had one DQ in my whole entire racing career of nearly 30 years. This was for fuel last year. Not a bad track record I feel.

To this point, I always used Amoco Ultimate and it never failed, until then. The irony, my teammate went to a APBA race so the kids could race the kids stuff once more. We both got gas the same station in my home town. He received a DQ as well at an APBA race for the fuel. He tried to callme to warn me of the gas, but it was to late. So I felt a lot better about the DQ, not our fault for the station having a bad batch. Our fault for not testing the fuel prior to the race, as I would have won at least one heat of the SEH. Went to local gas station where they said it tested legal that day. I did this the next morning. Fuel tested bad. So, the lesson I learned here. NEVER TRUST ANY FUEL REGARDLESS OF WHERE YOU GET IT. ALWAYS HAVE IT TESTED PRIOR TO RACE. If you don't, accept the DQ with a smile.

I did a lot of looking, went and bought several companies gasoline, all premium grade. I borrowed a fuel meter and tested all of them. Shell failed badly, Sunoco failed. Amoco from a different station passed. I also tested the Race gas from Speedway, the Turbo Blue brand. It was fine.

You want legal gas, get racing gas. But I would still test it as you are getting it through a pump at a station, and you never know what the owner of the station is doing to the tanks.

But I do know something SHOULD have been done at the APBA annual meeting and it was not. SOme committee looking into it. Well that does not help me this season. Oh well. NBRA already allows for a plus 50 on the meter to allow for some impurities that occur in pump gas. THANK GOD.

So, add more budget to fuel, as until the powers to be decide that there actually is a problem in racing with pump gas and make some adjustments, those of us who always try to be legal and get burned for it will have to buy the really really expensive gas. Here it is over $5.00 a gallon for the Turbo Blue. And I can't count on this gas being in every sity we race at, so I gotta haul it.

I do have to say, I am in no way upset with the NBRA in the way they handled the DQ. They tried letting it sit, cool off, they tried out of the engine fuel lines, they even let me bring the can i filled up with over. All failed. Even the other cans I had failed, so thankfully, The Macafees loaned us some legal fuel.

P.S. - I never have been back to the station that cost me the race... not even to fill up the truck !

[nbranews]

It was also voted into NBRA rules that at a national event if no local fuel can be found that pass inspection the referee will designate a local fuel to be used.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That's why I always stayed with the alky's.;) Bore & Stroke, no mechanical superchargers, or tractor lower units. Everything else......RUN WHAT YA' BRUNG!

With the EPA mandating different fuel mixtures all across the country I don't know how you guys ever get it straight. Remember the pipeline that burst a couple of years ago that carried the Chicago style receipe gas? Huge price increases to truck it in. In Brownwood, Texas when these stupid rules first came into effect, gas stations on the east side of town got their gas from the closest refineries. Those on the west side had to have theirs trucked in from 200 miles away because they were on the other side of the invisible EPA line requiring a different formulation.

In those national events, it's tough enough to win on the water only to lose on the banks. Hope you guys can work it out, but seems to me that without some tolerances for regional differences, you might all have to go with local gas. Maybe pick up a local race sponsor that way:D

[Mark75H]

What if the fuel is already cold? My dad always about 30 min before a heat put the fuel in a one gal can and put it on ice. I only had the one case of fuel not passin but would they test it already cold?

Good question ... this first, though

No one here is talking about any DQ's due to specific gravity spec's ... the issue being discussed is DQ's due to conductivity. Old fashioned gasoline with no alcohol does not conduct electricity .... alcohol (and many illegal fuel additives) on the other hand, do conduct electricity and special test meters are used at races to detect even small amounts of conductive material in gasoline. With these meters, alcohol is detected at levels far below where it could give any power increase.

The problem with just changing the meter reading to allow a certain percentage of alcohol that is likely to be present from time to time is that the same meter reading would allow other illegal additives in very small amounts, too.


Back to Poppa Thibodaux icing down his fuel .... that was to increase the effective cooling of the incoming air, like a fuel cooler on a dragster. No measurable change in conductivity with temperature.

[RichardKCMo]

Old Alkie dude , you must not be as old as i thought, $.09 at the boat dock no road tax.
Sure was reasonable to fill the old 52 chevie. Stinking S. American Gas,???
RichardKCMo

[Roy Hodges]

my cousin, in 1954 was driving a 52 chevy ,converted to propane , buying it at a refinery in oklahoma city - for THREE cents a gallon . i call that cheap . i'm guessing they weren't charging road tax. he's dead now, too late .

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Sam--thanks for the lesson. I didn't know how they conducted the test. I was thinking of titration or some sort of electospectograph. Conductivity would make it quick and easy. I didn't know that about the conductivity of gasoline. So that makes me throw out this warning----Don't do margaritas while you're filling your gas cans.;) :D

[Roy Hodges]

or at least make sure the worm doesn't fall into your race fuel...........( unfair advantage ) lol

[RichardKCMo]

Would'nt it be nice, but in my neck of the woods gas just went up $2.13 , propane just came down ,was $1.59 ,don't know the latest. I have enough tanks to fit in my s-10 to go 2500+mi. between fill-ups. Shame we're not gov. subsidized and incouraged to leave.
RichardKCMo

[Roy Hodges]

i can't remember ever seeing an alky burner guy's fuel being checked . did i just miss it all, or what ?

[Roy Hodges]

that we can't burn propane in an outboard (well, we could , but not too easily) cheaper & it has , i recall, about an equivalant of 112 octane. a little less economy , and a little less power ,but higher compression take care of that & just about no wear , compared to gasoline . and, a lot less po-lushun !!! ( i have spoken ! )

[RichardKCMo]

You sure that worm isn't in some other drink, like one that's made from some cactus or something? Hope it's a cooked worm.
RichardKCMoor at least make sure the worm doesn't fall into your race fuel...........( unfair advantage ) lol

[RichardKCMo]

Know it well, i was parked at the end of Laurel for a few yrs. , man those 727s were loud at certain times.
RichardKCMo

[Tim Chance]

Where would a guy buy a fuel meter? How much do they cost? What is their degree of accuracy? Comparing one to another would they both read the same? And what exactly do they measure?

[Mark75H]

Apparently the Digitron DT-15 that APBA rules spec as "the" meter to test conductivity is no longer available from Digitron.

Digitron has replaced it with the newer DT-47

http://www.digatronusa.com/images/instruments/40-150.jpg

http://www.digatronusa.com/pricing-fuel-tester.shtml

$500

It measures conductivity to detect alcohol and other illegal additives

They are calibrated with standard reference chemicals and any 2 will read the same if the user adjusts them correctly

[smittythewelder]

For what it's worth, many in the small engine repair biz believe that all pump gasoline is not created equal, and that Chevron is the best you can get, with Texaco second. I have a friend with an auto repair shop who says that many times he has directed owners of sour-running cars to try a couple of tanks of Chevron before bringing the car in, and often they have reported that the car began runnning better. Chevron has the best additive package, apparently, and the least likelyhood of gratuitous additions of ethanol. Gasohol is fine in an engine which gets used a lot, but is bad if you leave it in your weedeater all winter, which is why the small-engine mechanics won't use it. Daimler-Benz also recommends Chevron in their factory service bulletins.

[Mark75H]

What you say about Chevron may be true, but addition of small amounts of alcohol is not the gas companies' choice in most instances; it is by federal mandate by location. If your area is within one of the designated zones, you are stuck with what the feds require to be distributed.

A possiblity is that the local Chevron is just across the line in the federal zoning and is never REQUIRED to dispense "oxygenated" gas that other nearby stations are.

[smittythewelder]

Didn't know that.

But here's another thought. Maybe the stockers and mods should consider going to straight ethanol. Cheaper than racing gas. No detonation problems in engines which were made to run on gas. And, think about this, it allows a group of racers to say to the general public, "No, we are not squandering fossil-fuels to run our toys, we race with bio-fuels only!!" This will be an increasingly desireable position for boatracers, and all motorsports, to be in, preempting a lot of hostility. With this one alteration we would suddenly have the environmental crowd on our side, pointing to us as good citizens. This could be very useful to us as time goes on.

[Roy Hodges]

What's the octane rating of ethanol ? i'm sure it'd be o k for two strokes , would NOT want to use it straight in 4 strokes ......draws moisture , but a two stroke mixing oil w/fuel seems o k . i would hope it comes from sugar beets, NOT corn , corn costs TOO much , not economically feasable . Could we get the gov. to SUBSIDIZE it for racers? (lol)

[Skoontz]

So, we burn environmentally friendly free to be you and me hug a tree ethanol, as I wear my best pair of Birkenstocks........(Not knocking it here, just had to toss in the liberal whackatism note) We burn this fuel, it is good and life is good...... Farmers growing and selling corn that government used to pay to plow under, now it's put to use. John Deere selling more tractors, to harvest more corm and or beets....Factory jobs on the rise, and, unions strike for more money........The demand for ethanol producing plants goes up, so, we all pay more for food because corn and beets are commodities....Liberals claim the plants are harvested in an inhumane way, and, PETA now becomes PETP.


So, lemme axe those who know best....Since Ethanol has alky in it, what would stop engines from burning 33% more fuel, as with an alky motor on a hydro???? So, we pollute less, we can grow and repleanish the fuel, but, we burn 3 times more and when you do the math, the 30% more fuel burned makes as much if not more pollution than that which we are trying to conserve...

I'm not knocking here, just need a few expert opinions to see exactly how much more money the government will cost us by following the wrath of Gore....What we will be saving if and or when the government gets it's way once again.... I mean do the math beased off what is needed in order to run an anegine as efficiently as with fossil fuels, not off numbers on a lab engine running side by side to see what the exhaust emmissions are with equal fuel and time on the motor....

[Mark75H]

Not sure you typed what you meant, but this is what is going on:


33% more is 1/3 more not 3 times more (13 gallons instead of 10, not 30)

The exhaust from smaller molecule fuels is much cleaner (almost nothing other than CO2 and water). The exhaust from 13 gallons of alcohol is easily much cleaner than 10 gallons of gas from the cleanest burning motor.


But much of the economics you point out is likely to be true ... demand for crops as fuel is certain to raise the cost of those commodities. (Add sorghum to beets and corn as source crops.) What we need to do is produce fuel from trash. Many municipal land fills are capped and draw off natural gas from the decay of the buried trash and sell it to the local pipeline.

[RichardKCMo]

Everything you said is so true, i personaly was late arriving in that area, probly overstayed. Old dude what i've learned is it costs a lot more to leave. I enjoyed every year i spent in that area. I wish i would've had more time to pursue my boat racing spectatorship, but sometimes the economy dictates. Anyways as i've heard things happen.
RichardKCMoQUOTE=oldalkydriver;29950]RichardKCMo
Laurel, 727's, man you missed the good old days. Raise on Juniper and Pacific Coast Highway (101). You should have been there when the B36's and 52's came over the house. One block from touch down. Plus the train tracks right outside my bedroom window about 30 feet away. The only good thing about Laurel Street was the hill around Laurel and State Streets. Only because it was closer then 'B' Street Hill.:D[/QUOTE]

[Roy Hodges]

which land fill produces the best lively go joy juice for my outboard go fast conveighance machine .( BOAT )Maybe in the bayous of the cajuns ? some of ? How 'bout swamp gas distillations ? is that natural? Potent ? ah, sweet science

[RichardKCMo]

Just curious as to price of fuel,compared to WHAT? i heard that was a song once.Idea is as stock is concerned anyways , simplicity , i'm sure thats easy.!!!
RichardKCMoDidn't know that.

But here's another thought. Maybe the stockers and mods should consider going to straight ethanol. Cheaper than racing gas. No detonation problems in engines which were made to run on gas. And, think about this, it allows a group of racers to say to the general public, "No, we are not squandering fossil-fuels to run our toys, we race with bio-fuels only!!" This will be an increasingly desireable position for boatracers, and all motorsports, to be in, preempting a lot of hostility. With this one alteration we would suddenly have the environmental crowd on our side, pointing to us as good citizens. This could be very useful to us as time goes on.

[Mark75H]

Smitty was comparing the price of race gas to alcohol

[Ron Hill]

All week I've felt I had a hernia from cranking Broc's 45 at Bakersfield....i bought a new battery, and I FOUND OUT it had 165 cold cranking amps...(I need 400)...I'm simi intelligent, but I bought a new battery that was JUNK...

I fell, that "GOING RACING" ain't easy...I feel, that I as an AVERAGE DUMMY should be able to buy gas at the 7-11, Stop and Go, Circle K...Terrible Herbst.....and go race....Trouble is, California gas, has alcohol...and so does most of the country...Seems to me, "FUEL of the DAY" should be what we us at every race...records, nationals or Clam Bkae...


It bothers me, that I paid $57 for five gallons of race gas, for Brco's third race ever, when I could have bought 3 dollar a gallon, ($15)... Hell, we ran better with race gas that was legal...but I'm not going to buy $10 a gallon gas! $42 for five gallon?? Who benefits for this cost???

[RichardKCMo]

It just might be time to consider stilly stuff, it aint like they don't sell 25lb bags of sugar at wallys place.
Chit happens wow
RichardKCMo

[Skoontz]

Having worked in the disposal industry through college years, I know landfills produce ethane gasses. Many are pumping into small electric plants that subsidize town electric bills. Methane is also consolidated and turned to plastics, and, in part, carbon fiber, which I understand there is a shortage of.

I feel we need to focus more on direct injected two strokes, as even with alky, and smaller particled fuels, 4 strokes produce hydro carbons from dead oil in the crankcase.

Anywho, good twist on the take here. Keep this fuel discussion rolling!

[Ron Hill]

If we start racing 15 Four Strokes....If the E-Tec 15 comes out, it will be 2006 legal, we can start racing them, also...Right now, I know of no clean 15 HP 2006 approved, but I could be wrong. We can resell used four stokes for enough to buy new motors, it we don't start putting Racing parts on them!

My ORIGINAL RULES for SPORT C was no motor could be over five years old...they are now almost 25 years old! Tohatsu builds a 40 HP Direct Injected motor, that isn't legal for Sport C....You have to run a 25 year old motor in this class...A 45 and 15 are almost 25 years old, also!!!

[Roy Hodges]

If we start racing 15 Four Stroesell used four stokes for enough to buy new motors, it we don't start putting Racing parts on them!My ORIGINAL RULES for SPORT C was no motor could be over five years old...they are now almost 25 years old! Tohatsu builds a 40 HP Direct Injected motor, that isn't legal for Sport C....You have to run a 215 year old motor in this class...A 45 and 15 are almost 25 years old, also!!!........................................... .............................. HMMmn ! 215 years old = built in 1792 ! i doubt that motor could be considered "COMPETITIVE" . who built it ?

[Ron Hill]

But it is OK...Sport C is a really good class....for children of all ages...My point, if I had one, is we need classes that use new motors...

You see these Bass Tournaments, about 200 boats, all with new 225 HP motors...


Boat Racing can not expect to CHANGE, if every class requires about a thousand hours to get a boat on the water...


We have to make it easier to get a boat, motor and propeller, and go RACING.

When I was OPC CHAIR, I started an ADVOCATE for each class. My goal was that this ADVOCATE would have a list of equipment for sale, be a mentor and generally help promote THEIR CLASS...

Seems EVERY CLASS could have a an Advocate...Someone that a NEW person could go to for help...

[Roy Hodges]

Would be the motor manufacturers, helping with a NEW loaner motor to each racer ,as long as he(she) is racing . It's NOT gonna happen . They SELL motors . And then refuse any repairs when we hurt the motor. I don't blame them, they're in business to TAKE our $, not help out. The answer to ANY problem, is cubic money , tons of it . there's no free lunch, not even any cheap lunches. Like rev. IKE said," the root of all evil is the LACK of money, show me a man who has ALL the money he wants , and i'll show you a man who never bothered anyone ".

[mercguy]

If we start racing 15 Four Strokes....If the E-Tec 15 comes out, it will be 2006 legal, we can start racing them, also...Right now, I know of no clean 15 HP 2006 approved, but I could be wrong. We can resell used four stokes for enough to buy new motors, it we don't start putting Racing parts on them!

My ORIGINAL RULES for SPORT C was no motor could be over five years old...they are now almost 25 years old! Tohatsu builds a 40 HP Direct Injected motor, that isn't legal for Sport C....You have to run a 25 year old motor in this class...A 45 and 15 are almost 25 years old, also!!!

you won't see a 15 E-Tec this year......maybe next and expect to pay out your *** for it!

BTW, BRP is still selling 9.9/15hp carbureted 2 strokes, as they have enough EPA points built up. They are not manufacturing anymore, but there are still new ones available. We have about 10 of them at the dealership I work for, along with all the E-Tecs.

[mercmack]

When Sport C/and C Production First Came Out..i Was So Excited Because Here Was Something I Could Get Into.. Watched A Race At Susiun, Cal And There Was Close To 10 Boats There..all Larks And Additors With All Kinds For Engs, American And Japanieses..it Was So Much Fun To Race..so I Go Out And Bought Me A Lark...and Since A Was A Merc Ob Mach..we Had A Old 30 Cu In 35 Merc In The Used/very Used Bin...cleaned It Up Got It To Run..got Me A Nice Cleaver Merc Prop..tested In The Napa River And Was Ready To Go..raced One Race At The End Of The Year,,did Pretty Good To...but And It Was A Big But...some One Change The Rules And Because The Eng Was One Of The First Two Cyl 35 Merc Like 1963 Well The Darn Thing Was To Old To Race..at Least I Get The Last Laugh For Now There All To "old":d :d

[smittythewelder]

I had a good chuckle at your post, Skoontz!! Like you, I'd feel pretty wierd wearing earth-shoes and singing Kumbaya as I poured ethanol into the tank. But just to show you how mixed up things have become, when I was a kid in the Fifties environmentalism was called "conservation of natural resources" and was a conservative Republican issue.

I'm not insisting on a straight-ethanol-only fuel rule, and recognize the obvious downsides, but I still think it has real advantages. Yes, you'd have to come up with carb-kits with new jets and fuel-resistant gaskets, seals, diaphragms, whatever. At the end of a racing weekend, each owner would have to do the same thing a chainsaw or weedeater owner SHOULD do if he is going to leave his machine idle for more than a few weeks: drain all fuel from the system. The alky racers have had to do this all along.

A little water absorbed in alcohol fuel won't ruin your engine, unless you let it sit a long time. If the water is evenly dispersed and absorbed (you DO shake up your fuel frequently), it can't hurt and might help. Old racer and writer Hank Wieand Bowman had several fuel mixes for alky racers to try, and one included 5% water as an anti-detonant.

Unless you are one of the last global warming deniers, you should understand that the advantage of plant-derived fuels is that the growing of the plants sequesters at least as much carbon dioxide as the burning of the fuel releases. Right now the economics and net petroleum savings of ethanol production are not very impressive, but they will get better and better.

Methanol-from-garbage is a great concept. All production cars and trucks should come from the factory with a sophisticated, computer-controled water/methanol injection system. This would allow much higher compression ratios, greatly increasing torque and fuel efficiency, and allowing smaller, lighter engines to do the same job as todays engines. Yes, there are trade-offs; it's still a good idea. Sir Harry Ricardo, the great English engineer and researcher who invented the squishband cylinder head in the '20s, told us all about water injection, and we would have saved billions of barrels of petroleum had we put that info to use a long time ago.

Oops, I'm out of time here.

[Skoontz]

I saw ads in my dads old Hot Rod Magazines for water injection devices you could fill that mounted on the firewall and would gain 20 miles per gallon..Bunk! Then I started seeing water injectors reappear during the late 70's and early 80's surge of turbo enhanced cars from Detroit. They used to water, so they claimed to help with ping. The guys who ran real turbos, as in one on each bank of cylinders used water to help slow the burn inside the cylinder so there would be a poor mans nitro methane effect...

So, sounds like corn liquer and water will be once again used to help with ne design engines...There really are no 'new" designs are there....I mean Cord had front wheel drive, hide away headlights, air conditioning and power disc brakes , front wheel drive and power and steering in the mid 30's. Duesenburg invented the hydraulic disc brake in the 20, and, was a 32 valve dual overhead cam engine, with, a crank driven supercharger that looked alot like an old Johnson external rotary valve...

This is nuts!

[smittythewelder]

There's little or no advantage to adding water injection to an engine that doesn't need it. The advantage is that it allows you to build an engine with higher compression that won't detonate. If you wanted to do a web-search, you could find lots of guys who have done this with impressive results. And these are do-it-yourselfers; the factories could do it better.

[Roy Hodges]

A little water absorbed in alcohol fuel won't ruin your engine, unless you let it sit a long time. If the water is evenly dispersed and absorbed (you DO shake up your fuel frequently), it can't hurt and might help. Old racer and writer Hank Wieand Bowman had several fuel mixes for alky racers to try, and one included 5% water as an anti-detonant.



Methanol-from-garbage is a great concept. All production cars and trucks should come from the factory with a sophisticated, computer-controled water/methanol injection system. This would allow much higher compression ratios, greatly increasing torque and fuel efficiency, and allowing smaller, lighter engines to do the same job as todays engines. Yes, there are trade-offs; it's still a good idea. Sir Harry Ricardo, the great English engineer and researcher who invented the squishband cylinder head in the '20s, told us all about water injection, and we would have saved billions of barrels of petroleum had we put that info to use a long time ago.

Oops, I'm out of time here.[/QUOTE].................................

Talking about water injection; I'm sure many of you can recall that the U.S.Air Force used water injection in many warplanes during ww2 . the mixture actually consisted of ; 65% methanol, 30 % water , & 5% fish oil (yes- FISH oil) . it was used when max (war time emergency) power was called for . The carb setting went to "auto lean" & the water mixture added, not to exceed 5 minutes at that setting.

[bill boyes]

The first series of Boeing 707-131 used water on take-off. Thus we called them water wagons. Also the early 747's sometimes used water on take-off.

[Roy Hodges]

O K , ... which class can we use those engines in ?