Entry Level Racing...The Ultimate Boat

[Ron Hill]

"ULTIMATE" Entry Level Class:

I'm thinking a STOCK MOTOR on an UNLIMITED LOOKING BOAT......WING AND ALL..

Seems to me APBA owned the Water Mouses, but they NEVER RACED THEM. To me,
APBA should own some entry level boats, but not all. Entry level boats
could be raced in front of LARGE CROWDS, like Detroit, Seattle, San Diego,
and Series Type races...

I think the boats should be designed by a Sam Hemp Type, where there would
be a "SWEET ZONE" where the boat hauled ***.....Example: a sit down boat,
but where you use the control lever of a stock boat, the seat would be long
enough to handle a 6'5" guy or a 5'2" kid...Also, the seat area would be used to trim the boat. Slide forward the bow goes down, slide back, the bow goes up... a MINI Teeter Totter effect...Actually by design, make the boat slower when forward and slower when back, but fast where you've got it balanced...An entry level boat should teach driving skills.

The design would be such that it would not "BLOW OVER", it would stall out
first.... Sissy bars on the back, like a Drag Motorcycle. So, you could get this boat on the "SWEET ZONE" and she'd
"ROCK".....but, she could "STALL OUT" and your competition would pass you....

One year, at Havasu, Broc Glover was driving my RED Sleek Craft....it had
many colors besides RED, we called it the CRAYOLA BOAT...that was the last
time I let TWO WOMEN at the same time,pick boat colors.

Anyway, Broc, had trade a very fast "FACTORY" Yamaha Dirt Bike to someone
from Mercury for a VERY FAST MERCURY. We had always raced this Sleek with
an Evinrude, but Broc showed up with this Mercury so we threw it on. She,
for sure, hauled ***...

Broc was a WORLD CHAMPION MOTO CROSS RIDER but had very little experience
driving boats and NO BOAT RACE EXPERIENCE. After about the first lap, Broc
was about 4th or 5th, running with some seriously fast MOD VP's... Al
Stoker, Fred Bowden, Lewis Collins, Greg Foster....as soon as the water
started to get rough, it was clear that Broc had a problem, he was the
fastest, but he's start to "Hang It Out" and the boat would go airbourne,
and he'd save it.... Then, he'd get back on it, catch back up with the
field, and she's start to "TAKE OFF" again... Each time she went up, I
figured, Broc's lost it this time.... For two hours Broc fought that boat,
only lightening fast reflexes and pure luck saved him from "Blowing Over"...

At the end of the first day, Broc was 8th, 2 laps down.

For the second day, we loaded two pillow cases from the hotel with sand
(about a hundred pounds) and put the sand bags under Broc's knees in front
of him. On the second day, he lead the first lap, the boat layed flat with
100 pounds up front, he un lapped himself and was poised to win, when the
battery cable came off. He finished 7th or 8th...

But, I have often thought, if a boat was designed with a big rocker bottom,
where slidding in the back woudl make it go like crazy, but if you got back
too far, she'd stall out..... or you could play it safe, ride forward on the
sponsons, and run steady...

An entry level boat, can not just be a TURD to drive....When Kasey Kahne
drives trucks, (NASCAR Trucks is somewhat entry level) Kasey does well. His
skill show when he drives trucks.

We don't want J. Michael Kelly or Bob Wartinger racing an Entry Level Boat
every weekend, but if they get in one, their skill should show how fast that
boat can go.

What was COOL about the early days of TUNNEL BOAT RACING was that skilled
drivers ran the fastest In Paris, France, 1970, I lappped Bob Nordskog six
times in six hours. We had identical boats. The next week, Ted May
"TUTORED" Bob on How to drive an outboard. Jimbo McConnell and I won Berlin
the next weekend, but Bob Nordskog and Ted May finished a close third.

I never blwe a tunnel over, until I had seen 107 on a Keller Speedometer.
Under a hundred, "SEAT OF THE PANTS" won races. With today's tunnel speeds,
only Guido Cappalini and Greg Foster seems to REALLY HANG THEM
OUT....Though, I have seen Mike Seebold do it.

So, to me a boat with a big rocker, wide sponsons (So it would turn and not
TURN OVER)...it what we need..

Ron



ADD: Quick picture of Broc's first MOD VP race. I won in the Sleek...In the early days of MOD VP, you brought your boat to the race and raced. Broc Glover's Eliminator had a Dick O'Dea built powerhead.

[MN1]

A new design by Mark Nelson. Driver is Sam LaBanco.

[Ron Hill]

Is this a LEGAL SPORT C?? Nice boat...40 Toahtsu?? Something like what you posted...only not a full capsule... Something that a man could make by going to Home Depot... But folow the design like a Soap Box Derby Car...

This boat looks pretty full race...I'm thinking something that had a built in design to slow you WAY down if you were too far back or way down if your were too far forward....

Found a picture of the CRAYOLA BOAT... She would run hard when you had it trimmed perfect... But, she'd blow over easy as John Castelli and I found out... Trimmed down, she'd lose 10 miles per hour...

An entry level boat with this kind of a rocker bottom with "Sissy Bars" tp prevent "BLOW OVERS" would be cool...

This boat was so fun to drive,,,she'd be going 80, and you'd get her trimmed and all of a sudden, she'd be doing 94. This is me in it, with the Evinrude...She went 98, out of the box, with the Merc... 94 was the best we ever saw with the Evinrude...

[Rocket]

Training wheels?? How about something along the lines of the Mirage 1/4 master? I've never seen or heard of one blowing over (even at 125mph)! :eek:

http://www.motorsportspictures.com/smokin/2004/images/04smokin89.jpg

[march3stv]

I guess it's just a matter of perspective!

[Ron Hill]

Seems realy close to what I was thinking, only I was thinking high side so a man could bump or get bumped and it would be no harm no foul...

I was thinking 40 HP/50 hp made of foam...Too slow???

Went Slick Tracking Racing last night with both my boys. Broc is learning to drive a car and I thought the experience of sliding on a Slik Track would be good. So off we go, Chad and I racing like crazy...We take each other out on a head on... Broc wins...

Maybe, ENTRY LEVEL is SUper Sport/Mod VP....and itis in front of our eyes..

[Miss BK]

My husband designed the 1/4 master almost 10 years ago for drag boat racing. To our knowledge, not one has ever flipped one. (Knock on wood! We really don't like saying "never"). But we did see one torque-over on its side and ride that way for more than 50 feet before landing back upright. (Driver was Marty Logan, who chooses to be strapped in -- which I don't recommend in a non-capsuled boat)

That was the wildest thing I've ever seen happen with a 1/4 Master. The pictures are on the ODBA site, I think.

Brad wanted to make a boat with a curved sides for circle racing. A concave or convex side that would act like a deflection runway in the event of a side impact. He doesn't build boats anymore, but he has talked to a number of current boat racers about this idea. It would certainly help -- broad flat capsule sides are too much of a target and not strong enough to deflect a direct T-bone. Even with the breakaway tips.


Ron -- I just read an e-mail yesterday that the SLT's are talking about an entry level class in the inflatables -- only they are discussing jet foots instead of props. (to the Hill family, that would be sacreligious, eh?) LOL

But actually, I think the Jet Foot idea is a good one. These guys and gals are thinking way ahead about the safety of the kids before introducing a new class - I like that.

About the Mouse Boats -- yes, they were raced, at least up here they were. In Trenton, I invited some of my friends from Ohio to come see. These folks are rabid NASCAR fans, and it didnt take long for their 11 year old son Nathan, to became a huge fan of SST 120 driver Rounder Saverance. (Former NASCAR club series driver). Nathan begged to be allowed to run a Mouse Boat that weekend, so we ran him through the mandatory training class.

Then he was allowed to actually race with two other kids who were experienced J racers. Boy was he nervous! But shortly after he took to the course, a ton of seaweed got caught in his prop -- he couldn't go above 5 mph and could not understand what was wrong. Poor kid. (no radios). So he tried like crazy to get the boat on plane, still running the full course.

But then a near tragedy happened. As he was barely making it (plowing) around the corner on lap number two, one of the other drivers who was lapping him, came around the pin like normal -- we could already see the accident coming. These boats tend to slide in the corners, and the other driver wasn't about to back out of it --- so at full throttle he slammed right into the side of the barely moving Nathan.
A fun thing to do in go-carts; but terrifying when in a boat.

On impact, "BANG", both boats listed in the opposite directions (thank God). I was standing next to Nathan's parents, who were totally unaware of how close that propeller came to landing in Nathan's lap if his boat had listed up the wrong way.

I nearly fainted. It took a long while for my nerves to calm down and I was so thankful neither of those kids got hurt. Hard to believe 25 mph can be so dangerous. I didn't feel so good about the Mouse Boats anymore.

But Nathan still talks about the day he was "a boat racer". :D


Here is the Marty Logan 1/4 master video clip. Hope this works....

[Miss BK]

Well, I couldn't get the video to load, but this picture was on Scream and Fly.


http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=321949

[Ron Hill]

I was out making my "ROUNDS" yesterday and stopped to look at a guy's Honda project...

This is a 26 HP Honda Four Stroke, rewind starter for $600. This is a horizontal shaft, but they make a vertical motor too.....Maybe a $600.00 powerhead on a jest drive would be a start... Weel, I thought he said @6 HP pictures looks like 13.0....but $600!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome Miss BK, start bring out the "GOOD" pictures...

After running the Slick Track last night, no question in my mind that they haven't thought out all the ways to make it safe...Except they can't require OLD MEN to use the brakes, but they do have a control switch that can stop all the cars or slow them to a stop... Seems to me, this could be incorprated in entry level boat racing....

Bring on the stories and pictures!!!

[Miss BK]

What kind of pictures do you want? The Golden Oldies? I've got lots of those.

Also -- did you happen to see the cover of the Dec Powerboat Magazine? I have a feeling that guy driving the boat is an old SCOA racer, only with a little grey hair. What do you think?

[march3stv]

:( Unlless you gots a lid. Pat's got his canopy almost ready...it's purdy!

[Mike Fjeld]

A good thing about SuperSport for entry level is it would be diffucult to have a blow-over unless someone was trying to. At the speeds we race at, 75 to 80 our boats will stall with too much trim. When I am out on the lake just playing I will run a 29" prop and at about 83 my Vision craft will get real light and could blow over if running into a headwind. The 29" will take the boat to blow-out speed, about 86 or 87 mph with the stock gear case.
I think I recall that Danny told me that my Vision was owned by you. Any info???

[march3stv]

Ron -

Your last photo posted...

That's me and Bruce holding your red #9 boat...Is that Havasu? and what year would that have been?

[Ron Hill]

Miss BK:

Haven't seen Powerboat in quite awhile... Who's picture is on the front???

I would like to see a picture of the jet outboard!!!

Scott:

Crayola Sleek...80, Witch Craft, 81, 21 Eliminator, 82 19 Eliminator, 83 Red Sleek!!!

The blond is you??? I thought that was John Haddon from Sea Witch Marine!!!

MOD VP, CAPSULE, TRANSOM EHIGHT...ENRTY LEVEL or NASCAR????

NASCAR takes any spoilers, changes this for saftety, requires restrictors on big courses...

[Mike Fjeld]

What engine are you thinking about?

Current off the shelf engines or older models

1 manufacture or all of them

Stock gear case or ??

I think this is a very interesting topic and I'm curious. Will this attract more drivers?

Anybody else have any ideas?

[T-REX]

I have seen "Entry Level" classes cum an go, but never have seen one that made an overall impression...Well, less say it this way, haven't seen that many NEW racers flock'in to run them...Yes, I've seen sum classes formed to be entry level, and have see classes that should have been entry level, but nun ov which have made a lasting impression....Tha first time I seen tha Super sport boats run, and talked wit Danny McMannus, and sum ov the others, I WANTED ONE!!!....BUT, those guyz traveled more than tha ODBA, which I wuz currently runn'in...I have a 380 laser, and I think @ 1600#s, it would be az competitive az any in tha class, but...tha price ov a new engine kept me in Pro 120...Pro 120 wit ODBA, should have been one ov tha biggest classes in ODBA, because to me, it wuz the closest thang to an entry level class ov any!!...Cost kepp low by use'in old stuff, open enuff to use varyable hulls, and it didn't take BIG BUCKS to git going, and be competitive...But NO cigar!!!...

The Type boat your talk'in would be heaven sent, at least from my stand point...I would like my kid to race, but he hasn't shown me tha skillz it takes to drive a 16' laser vee bottom wit 200+ hp!!...A boat az U are refering, would be safe enuff for a young'un to cut hiz teeth on, and at tha same time groom hiz drive'in skills for other classes...Tha kidz are tha ones that will be take'in this sport ov race'in to tha nex step, and a safe, vurtually blowover proof hull, would be tha ticket for Moms and Dadz to encurage thier kids to race...

HP...how much iz enuff, and not enuff???...Tha "Water Mouse" U spoke ov, wuz in my opinion, a purfekt class, but due to sum unforseen mishaps, and tha cost ov that combo, along with the cost associated with APBA juss to run, made it not a entry level class, at leest not for tha average joe anyway...

I my opinion tha "Entry Level" class should be dictated by tha part ov tha country U live, and are will'in to travel...We have Tha DSRA here local, and we have the Super Stock class that iz basically our entry level class...It is open to a number ov combos, and hull configurations...Sum hulls being more expensive than others, but all being competitive...Your pocket book, and drive'in abilities dictate what combo U run...Backyard boyz with ole haz been performance hulls and tha ambition to make sumpth'in outta nutt'in, thats a class that ever orginazation needs...

Juss one lil thang I'll thro at ya about ya safe, non blow'in over hull...I raced R/C for a long time, and a hull configuration U mite look at would be sumpth'in similar to a "Spider" hull( outrigger)...They will run reely well and will unload air super quick...In a realistik HP to weight, tha HP handling capibilities are enormous...My spider wit OPS 90 would run 85mph(in tha early 80's), and for a boat that wuz only 40"s long, that would be reely cook'in for a full scale boat...Juss my opinion, which wit 50cents, mite git ya a cup ov decaff coffee...

I like this site, good info...Keep on wit ya bad self...T-REX :cool:

[Ron Hill]

VOLUME 1 ISSUE 10 of Extreme Boats.... The picture is Miss Budweiser, it gives the deminsions of 29'10" long, 14'6" wide....

Pause a little:

Can't agree more about Entry Level Classes coming and going....The Mini Revolution did balloon up quite a bite, but went out just as fast....and maybe here is the place to give my point of view, 20:20 hindsight, of course.

A guy in Phoenix, just had Ernie Dawe and Harry Shishido go to Ohio to pick up a small hydro. It uses some new little Ford motor, purchased through most junk yards...four banger stock, goes 80...

Anyone watch the Legends Cars on Speed??? Anyone watch the NOPI Nationals on Speed???

I'll be the first to say I'm an OUTDOOR MOTOR MAN, but with all these little RICE ROCKETS out there...

A boat that is half as wide as it is long, won't roll very easy... Build a ONE DESIGNED HULL FROM FOAM, just like a surfboard and power it with a HONDA ENGINE and Tranny.... Marcel made all his inboard hydro struts with aluminum angle...

Or forget the car motor, use this designed boat with any 60 HP motor....but an outboard would cost a ton compared to junk junk HONDA motors...

Problem is: or Problems are:

1. Even Jet Ski companies are have a hard time making money.
2. A race boat for a kid that costs $5,000 FOR RACING ONLY???
3. The approach and recruitment of new members needs to be defined...

IE: Most MINI BOAT racer came into the sport thinking they'd be discovered and be driving Miss Bud next year...

to be continued...

[Ron Hill]

Well, I met with Ernie Dawe and Harry Shishido, yesterday for lunch, we ate at Denny's and all had the "SENIOR'S Menu lunch"....Well, we are SENIOR CITIZENS. I have grand kids, Harry has Great Grand kids...

Harry and Ernie first met close to 40 years ago when Ernie first started teaching. Harry and Ernie built Harry a Glen-l boat and Ted May helped them get a discount on a NEW Mercury 60....ELECTRIC.....

They have really been friends since... and as Steven Dawe say when he was being inducted in the APBA Hall of Champions, that he wanted to thank Harry for all he'd done... Seems many a time coming home from races they'd have some kind of motorhome trouble, and Harry would come out, at all hours, either with parts, or he'd drive Ernie to work, then back after school to fix the motorhome or trailer...

TRUE friends aren't easy to come by...

We met so we could talk RACE PROPS, Ernie has written his Experiences of going to APBA Stock Nationals from 1959 to 1975, I told him I'd post them here... He promises to write from '75 to 2004...AND we talked about FOAM BOATS...

This is what I've decided to do.

1. Ernie is going to built a hydro, on the scale to Miss Budweiser.
Actually, he will build everything he can from wood, all the straight pieces, then, I will get foam and we will build the round pieces and fiberglass them.

My concept is to build a boat out of foam...all wood will come from Home Depot or Lowes, I will make the foam pieces and sell boats complete or in kits.

I plan a wing, just like Miss Bud. Sit down. Not strapped in...High cockpit sides.

Power you ask???

2. F NOD (National One Design) to be 60 Horsepower....Division I: 60 HP 2006 motor Stock plus four 1/2 inch exhaust reliefs.in Division I. Division II: will be any Johnson or Evinrude with 45 SS powerhead on a production gearcase, 20 inch mid section.

I have discovered that their are TONS of OLD Evinrude/Johnson/Tracker motors out there. Many don't meet the requirement for GOOD RACING 45 Parts, therefore there will be only three powerhead rules, 1. Deck and head height. 2. port height, measured from the block's deck to the port with a caliper. 3. Carb size, whatever 45 SS is NOW. 4. 4 1/2 exhaust relief holes will be allowed.

Like this web site, we'll see how thing develop.

I bought a 20' midsection and gearcase from Gordy Miller last week. We have six powerheads...

3. MAY require a prop diameter, as I only want this hydro to go 70.

On the propllers, I have helped guys with many props by cutting off the blades and welding new one one. I think, I can take a Standard SST OMC wheel, cut the blades of, shorten the tube, add a siolid hub, weld on four cool racing blades and have a fairly inexpensive prop...

4. There will be a claiming price on the propeller of $300. AND HOW WILL THIS WORK??? EASY!!!! At Driver's meeting, if someone has posted $300 in cash or certified check, the referee will announce that the CLIAMING RULE is in effect. Drivers then, will have the option of running there best prop and maybe having it claimed or not. If no one posts the money before Driver's meting. The Referee will announce that NO CLAIMING RULE is in effect.

5. Points: Easy: Number of boats beat (1 per boat) times number of laps.

Ernie and Harry looked at me...Ernie said, "Well, follow through with this." Harry just looked at me.

When I was in college, I always felt we helped Waylon Jennings get popular... Our Fraternity would go and listen to him sing, and drink CHEAP BEER....but we'd always help him sing "I've alwys been crazy but it keeps me from going insane." I only listen to CD's on Saturday, in my car, talk radio M-F, but Joh,nny Cash and Waylon are on, on Saturday!!!

I'll keep you posted...

[Slider-056]

Ron, my thoughts exactly! I am living proof.


Maybe, ENTRY LEVEL is SUper Sport/Mod VP....and itis in front of our eyes..

[fyremanbill]

Why not Supersport and ModVP?
The key to make ModVP viable (in my opinion) is to make it cheap, fast, and diverse. Ron, that Sleek you ran in Havasu would do 94mph with a crossflow OMC. Did that engine have any special 2nd Effort parts ie. even fire crank, etc? I really think rules could be structured to were 95-100 mph boats could be put together for under $10k and still give guys lots to tinker with. Limiting engines to obsolete designs keeps the factories...and the politics...out. No, there won't be any sponsorship from engine builders, but maybe from race promoters, ie. Bluewater Casino.
Bill