OKAY..I Screwed Up...

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Okay I screwed up.....and now I need some help. Dad's don't listen. Dad's don't remember. "I told you that it wouldn't start!" says my son.

This all started late September last year. Our son Andrew had left the Kawasaki Ultra 150 jet ski on the shoreline for several days. After telling a teenager multiple times to get it out of the water he said he couldn't because it wouldn't start. I told him to push it to the ramp and crank it up on the trailer...which he tried. Later on in the day, after charging the battery, he said the battery was no good. I wanted him to start it up to blow the water out and clear the cylinders. Andrew came back and said the starter was no good. I didn't check it out myself and thought that at the end of the season all our Yausa batteries were Kaput.


Last week I bought a new battery for the Ultra 150 and told Andrew "DON'T LOSE ALL THE BOLTS & NUTS!". I helped him fill the battery with electolyte then we set it on the proper charge after a waiting period. A few hours later Andrew came to me and said "The starter won't work.". I said "What's it dooing?" He said "It Just Clicks"....and that's what I remember Andrew told me last September.

At that time I was busy and didn't go outside to listen, but this time I did. It wasn't a click...it was a grunt. No on/off solenoid flip...but a definite grunt of a starter trying to push real hard. I had a bad feeling. I finally found a deep 13/16 socket and pulled the middle plug. Dark, oily looking and a meniscus between the electodes. Man...I knew what it was.

I took the other two plugs out and turned the motor over with the hot battery and started pumping out water. I was very mad, but then again, it was my fault for listening to the kids and believing that the motor wouldn't start last September because of a low battery. So I Pumped out what I could, poured alchohol into each cylinder, and with a finger over each plug hole, turned it over and over to pump out more water. I did this several times then put the plugs back in.

My daughter's boyfriend is ready to jump into this to do an overhaul. He has never worked on two cycles, but has done a lot of work on helicopter motors as well as oilfieild compressors. We will start next weekend if we have all the parts. We plan on having bearings, seals, gaskets, rings, and all we think we need to get it in and out. I haven't looked for a manual yet, but I thought I would ask BRF members first about any do's and don'ts, hints or otherwise.

[Ron Hill]

Go BUY A NEW ONE!!!

ADD: THINK TOASTER...When you toaster takes a "DUMP" you buy a new one...same here!!!
Easy, write it off as a second home 30 years..low payments...

[Bill Gohr]

when you pull it apart and see that the crank is junk send it to Nydahl.........

[JohnsonM50]

Okay I screwed up.....and now I need some help. Dad's don't listen. Dad's don't remember. "I told you that it wouldn't start!" says my son.

This all started late September last year. Our son Andrew had left the Kawasaki Ultra 150 jet ski on the shoreline for several days. After telling a teenager multiple times to get it out of the water he said he couldn't because it wouldn't start. I told him to push it to the ramp and crank it up on the trailer...which he tried. Later on in the day, after charging the battery, he said the battery was no good. I wanted him to start it up to blow the water out and clear the cylinders. Andrew came back and said the starter was no good. I didn't check it out myself and thought that at the end of the season all our Yausa batteries were Kaput.


Last week I bought a new battery for the Ultra 150 and told Andrew "DON'T LOSE ALL THE BOLTS & NUTS!". I helped him fill the battery with electolyte then we set it on the proper charge after a waiting period. A few hours later Andrew came to me and said "The starter won't work.". I said "What's it dooing?" He said "It Just Clicks"....and that's what I remember Andrew told me last September.

At that time I was busy and didn't go outside to listen, but this time I did. It wasn't a click...it was a grunt. No on/off solenoid flip...but a definite grunt of a starter trying to push real hard. I had a bad feeling. I finally found a deep 13/16 socket and pulled the middle plug. Dark, oily looking and a meniscus between the electodes. Man...I knew what it was.

I took the other two plugs out and turned the motor over with the hot battery and started pumping out water. I was very mad, but then again, it was my fault for listening to the kids and believing that the motor wouldn't start last September because of a low battery. So I Pumped out what I could, poured alchohol into each cylinder, and with a finger over each plug hole, turned it over and over to pump out more water. I did this several times then put the plugs back in.

My daughter's boyfriend is ready to jump into this to do an overhaul. He has never worked on two cycles, but has done a lot of work on helicopter motors as well as oilfieild compressors. We will start next weekend if we have all the parts. We plan on having bearings, seals, gaskets, rings, and all we think we need to get it in and out. I haven't looked for a manual yet, but I thought I would ask BRF members first about any do's and don'ts, hints or otherwise.
Sometimes it costs more but we all get our turn [s] ;)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

A lotta help you guys are.:D I think I'll just finish pumping out the water, add a little Master Oil to the gas and give it an Italian tune up---5000 rpm's for five minutes.;) Then we see what happens.:cool:

[Fast Fred]

jetski don'ts - never try to jump the batt, never chrage batt wile connected.
thats all i got, it's more like a bike or sled moda wise than an outboard.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I hope Ron and Cap'n Z are taking your advice Fred.;) I will. Trouble is I have only overhauled two strokes and a rotary...never any 4 strokes. I'm thinking maybe water might not have gotten into the crankcase and mains.

[Fast Fred]

sevice manual be a good investment, factory service manual. that got a Supercharger on it?:cool:

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Yeah, I got a $50 gift certificate from Barnes & Noble that I might be able to use. No supercharger yet, but if Andrew finds out there is a bolt on, we might end up with one.

[tthibodaux]

:p :D have fun with that Wayne. I like Ron's idea, BUY A NEW ONE.;)

[Fast Fred]

what year is it, seems only the 07's got the 4 choker,
other wise
Engine Two-stroke, three-cylinder with crankcase reed valve induction, Inducted water cooled
Displacement 1,176cc
Bore x Stroke 80.0 x 78.0mm
Compression Ratio 5.8:1:cool:

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thanks Fred, Yeah I just found the owners manual and you're right. I don't know why I thought it was a 4 cycle. It lays over at an angle with all kinds of stuff bolted on so its hard to see what all is there when it is cramped into the hull. The good news is that it is two cycle, the bad news is I will find water in the crankcase. Man, I haven't worked on a two cycle with reed valves since 1966, but my help is really looking forward to it. They have a crane and all the tools we will need, including air and a portable cleaning bath. Wish I still had the old 20" X 30" X 1" chunk of flat steel we used for lapping. That's something you don't want to drop on your toe.;)

[carl lewis]

Wayne,
Simple fix....................

Add one quart MX237 let sit 24 hours add gas and there ya go...............



Carl :D :D :D :D

[Dave-4Q]

wayne I owned a 2002 ultra 150, sold it to buy a new Bezoats to race 20ssh.I have the factory service manual if you need info I would be happy to scan pages of it to you.Let me know.you might want to check out www.ultra150.com.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thanks Dave, that would be great. I was unable to locate any manuals so for on anything later than 2001 and nothing on the 1200 engine. The dealer is closed on Monday so hopefully Tuesday I will be able to pick up parts I expect to need next weekend. I checked out that site and my Son Andrew had already been scouting out that Ultra 250 I guess, because he was telling me about the supercharged engine. One of his friends across the lake races and has a PWC with ungodly hp. I forget what Andrew told me it was, but I found it hard to believe.

[Dave_E71]

Wayne,

I'm thinking Dave 4-Q is correct, BUT, you should be thinking 125 hydro and runabout (you guys can share one engine between two classes :D )

You could also look into a reman engine, both the other Dave and I have used these guys http://www.sbtontheweb.com/

Dave

Remember, jetski bad, raceboat good...repeat this over and over until the boss of your house finally yells at you to get the $^%$# boat, just shut the heck up.
Let us know how it works

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The Boss isn't the problem Dave.....it's the milage.:( If we lived in Florida, Illinois, Maryland, California, Washington....etc. we would probably already have a dozen Ron Hill props in our box already. ;) We can't do like the old days. Leave after school and be in the pits that evening.

But thanks for that SBT info Dave. I somehow think Andrew must have already found it because that's the price he gave me on a Kawasaki 1200.:D

[Ron Hill]

After looking at the picture from the last two Florida races.....and man thinks, maybe, Florida would be the place to move....They have weather. They have water. They have races...

Talked to Marcel, yesterday, he took a couple of hundred pictures from Lake Wales, and was having trouble posting them...

Having lived in Canada, California and now Florida....Marcel is the best sales person Florida has...I say he loves Florida, everyday!!! (I think he's been there almost 15 years)...

Leave Texas, and move to Florida, start racing again...Nice capsuled "Top Hydro"....


Sorry to "High Jack" this thread...

[Master Oil Racing Team]

We got the engine out, and it DOES NOT LOOK BAD considering the time it sat with water in it. There was oil in the crankcase which floated on the water and helped protect main bearings. I pumped most of the water out and with the alchohol I added, the piston tops were not holding water. Everything turns over clean. When I was pumping the water out by turning it over with my thumb over each of the sparkplug holes, the compression felt good. Rings are all free. A slight bit of scoring on a couple of pistons, but the cylinders are perfect. Small end connecting rod surfaces look good. The caged needles bearings are all free and look new when cleaned up other than a couple that had a very very small amount of pitting. Looks like from normal wear and tear. No corrosion present anywhere except on crank balances and water jacket. Only we couldn't tell on the main crank roller bearings as it is a one piece con rod with bearings and cages all part of a pressed crank. That is my main concern. Upper and lower ball bearings look good, but we can't see what the crank is turning on. After looking everything over, I am inclined to finish cleaning it up and going back together with new gaskets, O rings, piston rings and caged needle bearings. Wrist pins just slid out and reed cages and valves all look new. So if I can't see the crank journals and big end bearings, what do you guys think? A new crank is 975.00, which is O.K. if I have to do that, but I got to get it together next weekend,otherwise it will be disasembled for another month. I can get all other parts in a few days.

[Dave-4Q]

first question :Where did the water in crank case come from? Did it just get submerged or flipped and not dried and restarted properly(there is a correct way to roll them over if flipped ,the wrong way allows water from the exhaust to enter the engine) or did you find a bad gasket or o-ring?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I'm not sure Dave. Andrew and his friends were horsing around on another Kawasaki we had a few years earlier. They were turning it upside down and righting it again. Then when they couldn't start it, they came to me for help. I figured out the problem that same day. I made them help me get the water out and restarted in short order, but my lecture to those boys made it clear that THAT WOULD NOT HAPPEN AGAIN. Later on they even helped another boy get the water out of his and get it going again after he turned it the wrong way. So they learned about that situation. I only allow a couple of other boys to ride Andrew's ski. That way I know that only someone experienced and responsible is on it, and I know who to call down.

This problem occurred when Andrew didn't pull it out of the water on a Sunday before the school year started. He left it until the weekend, then he couldn't get it started to put on the trailer. He had pulled the battery and recharged it, then put our neighbors battery in. He told me the starter was bad, but as summer was over and the environmentalists had drained the bulk of our water into the bay, I didn't bother to check his theory out. We didn't try to put it back in the water until this spring.

The only thing I can think of is we had lots of constant pounding waves and high wind last year. I lost 6 feet of bluff where the ski was parked. I figured over those several days the constant wave action put the water in through the exhaust ports a little at a time. The ski was parked with the transom facing the prevailing wind and waves.

All gaskets, O rings, seals, everything have been in mint condition except the corrosion in the water jacket. I don't know how waves could do that, but unless some of Andrews friends did something to cause it while I wasn't around and he didn't know, then I don't know what else it could have been.

[Dave-4Q]

okay while I have never heard of that happening,I cant say its impossible. If you put the motor back together with that crank the chances of catastrophic failure are pretty high (like windowing the block) but there still is a possibility that it wont. Personally I dont like the odds but its not my motor. I bet if you order a crank today you would have it by the weekend!!

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Hi Wayne:

Whenever I get in a situation like you are now, I always go back and think of what someone we all respected very much had to say about cranks, rust and corrosion, and pitting of bearings or bearing surfaces. Harry Zak would NEVER put a crank back together if there was ANY pitting on either the bearing journal surface, (even the marks left where the bearings had rested against the surface) or the needles themselves. His feeling was that once rust or corrosion had gotten a start, it ruined the hardened surface of either and then it was just a matter of time until the bearings or the crank pin destroyed themselves doing all the other damage that happens when a crank self destructs. I think Mike Weindadt or Petey Nydahl might be able to help you or there is a place in Clearwater Fl., called "Falicon" which does very good crank work on pressed together cranks. I imagine Jack Chance would tell you the same thing. You remember I'm sure what a mess it makes when a crank goes out. After this length of time wet, and with the other pitting you have found, it would be a miracle if the big end of the crank didn't have some rust, corrosion, or pitting. Good luck.

Bill Van

[74starbuck]

looks like roller bearings on the mains. It shouldnt be too hard to replace.. as far as the rod bearings, that crank is pressed together.. It is probably possible to buy the crank pins .. i raced 4 wheelers years ago.. and if you blowed it up, you could order a rod kit that came with a new rod, rod bearings and the crank pin.. Then you had to have a machine shop press it apart and all back together again with the new parts. no need to buy a whole new crank.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Thaks. You think like me. The rebuilt one at half the cost should be here next week.

[Dave-4Q]

So whos crank did you get ? Made any progress on reassembly yet?:)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

SBT rebuilt my own since they didn't have one ready to go. Have to wait until Alexis's fiance's brother Dusty (got all that?) has his next weekend off. He has all the tools.:D BUT.......one of Andrew's friends is home from one of the Carribbean Islands, and he said yesterday he would be glad to do it. He just finished overhauling his own motor, which is identical. He raced PWC's a couple of years ago and did very well.

[Skoontz]

a race PWC all set up? These guys that pitted next to us had 300HP 2 liter
Honda car engines in them...0-100 in about 3 seconds....Insane!

[RichardKCMo]

Skoontz, lived in Chula, in 1984, about that time line.
My son had a 100cc.kamakasi flat track 6 speed Alky , i had know idea it had that other gear , because between 3rd st. and Broadway , couldn't get that laST LITTLE BIT. Stock???,
Maybe that's where time should be spent?
RichardKCMo
a race PWC all set up? These guys that pitted next to us had 300HP 2 liter
Honda car engines in them...0-100 in about 3 seconds....Insane!

[Skoontz]

Richard:

I don't get down to Chula much, but the last job we did there you would not recognise the place...Otay Lakes Roads is built out clear to Otay Lake/Brown Field....

Anyhow, the guys opened their engine hoods and along side the engines were roots blowers with throttle body injectors....One told me you could drop 30-40K in a jet ski engine and conversion, which includes pump work.....

[Master Oil Racing Team]

My Son Andrew has a couple of friends across the lake, 2o minutes by car--3 or 4 by jet ski, that have big bucks and big HP pumped into their skis. Mike does endurance racing and I think Andrew said he has several hundred HP. It's hard for me to figure how he can pack that power in, but I guess he does.

Mike puts out some bouys to play with and do some testing before he goes on to race. I haven't heard in awhile how he's doing. Andrew has been hanging out in the music/racing room playing guitars and drums.

[Jakob77]

My cousin just bought a 2007 Seadoo RXT. It's a 3 cylinder, 4 stroke, supercharged. It seats three people and runs right at the 70mph mark, box stock. It's rated at 215hp.

I still haven't gotten over the fact that they actually made this thing and sell it to the general public. You could easily hurt yourself on it.

But it's a blast to ride and most often the fastest thing on the river.

Mark

[Skoontz]

Jakob:

Here is the part that I really fail to understand...Anyone can go buy any boat they can afford as long as they can pay for it....I'm talking hi performance pleasure boats here...So, some genious buys a 36' Eliminator and has a pair of 700 cubic inch Chevies with 4 blowers a piece dropped in....No training, but hey he can afford it....I've long said there needs to be some regulation where a person must pass a test to legally drive the boat the bought...Same goes for crotch rocket motorcyclists to side step from boats a bit....

I don't do the leftust whack job McGovernick crap at all, but here, it seems safety would be the first thing.....

For years, the vast majority of the marine industry has fought any type of regulation in this respect, claiming that it would hinter boat sales.....

Now when you are talking jet ski/ PWC stuff, they typically are who you need to watch for more than any boat, as they will cut in front, stop short, and in general, have no regard for anything going on around them. No offense intended for those who are safe PWC drivers, as always, it's those who are oblivious that screw it up for all....

[Jakob77]

Safety is never the important thing, I think. Otherwise, kids today going through Drivers Ed would have an experience more like what I went through to obtain my Private Pilot License.

Most states, I believe, have some sort of a boater safety course. I know we do here in Illinois. It's completely optional, though, and the resources required to make it manditory would be incredible.

We also have a Motorcycle training course that is awesome. I went through it to get my motorcycle license. Every spring, within 3 days of the open of registration, every class is booked for the whole summer.

I think the best way to persuade people to get the proper training for what they are going to go do is significant insurance discounts.

But of course, there's still the fact that even though someone went through the general boating safety course, they most likely aren't ready to own a 215hp supercharged jet ski.

Perhaps the answer for that is for the manufactures to provide training. Of course the cost of that training would have to be passed onto the consumer, so it could maybe hurt sales.

I don't know. No easy answer. Just keep an eye out for anyone that looks like a moron, I guess.

Mark

[Ron Hill]

Gary Lewis, owner of Colorador River Chevy, Cadillac, Pontiac, and GMC bought one of those new RXT Sea Doo, 215 Super Charged. Chad Hill, my son, has driven boats on his own since he was seven. He got on this new SKI, and went about 70, when he backed off, the throttle worked so fast, and the ski stopped so quickly, that Chad flew over the handle bars (*** Over Tea Kettle) and landed on his head in the water.

I guess Sea Doo wants the SKI to stop quickly, but when a 30 year old, grown man lets off the gas, and it stops so quickly, that a driver flys off.....

I drove the SKI the next week. In smooth water, my 235 pound body saw 71 of the speedometer....I was very easy with the throttle, I could hold 68 in rough water, but could not stay on the seat....What I really didn't like about this SKI was when you backed off, it would go where it wanted...When you give it power, you can steer....I had had NOTHING to drink, but upon my return to the camp, I had decided that driving that SKI was like riding a HARLEY on the FREEWAY, "YOU WILL DIE...", quote Bunker Hill.

What needs to be done on the river, is bouys should be placed about every 1/4 mile, and regular traffic patterns should be established. AND you can only turn at a bouy... How would an eight lane freeway work if you could driving in any lane, in any direction??

When you are on a SKI, that is maybe 14 feet long and you get hit by a 40 footer, you'll be a statistic...Insurance companies will control these things, not the manufacture.

A NATIONAL SPEEDLIMIT of 35 MPH would be a good idea too...Carry your GPS, and prove to the COPS you weren't speeding....Certain lakes, in certain areas, SANCTIONED RACES could violate the speedlimit...35 is a nice speed.

[Jakob77]

We don't need 'em.

Personally, I like that I can go buy a 215hp supercharged jet ski straight off the showroom floor. I just can't believe that a large company thought it was a good idea to make and sell the thing. Or their legal department, for that matter.

They did post all the proper warnings on the machine, however. Including:

"Serious injury or death can occur from water being forced into body cavities. All riders and operators should wear neoprene type ski pants."

Or something of that nature. Scared me.

Mark

[epugh66]

I'm a little slow to read all the post, but I'm catching up.
After seventeen years of racing on two continents and one island, I nearly killed myself on a PWC.

I was riding a SeaDoo XP about ten years ago when the incident happened. I would like to remember it, but don't really. Somehow, while turning that evil, poor handling, piggish excuse for a boat, I was thrown off. It may have hooked, spun or rolled. I was hit in the head behind the right ear, nearly severing it, knocking me unconscious. As I was comming to, I could see the ski, but was unable to swim to it.

A guy in a sailboat was close enough to swing by and scoop me up. He hauled me to shore, and my friends took me to the ER. A few stiches, a concussion and whiplash was what I was lucky to get away with. I really think if it hadn't been for the sailor, things would be different.

I wish I had been wearing my Simpson that day. My PFD did it's job, but my Security would have kicked ***.