J class

[Skoontz]

The weekend in Oroville was pretty much a bust, wind kicked up Saturday, and rigt about the time KTDoodle took the water trouble plagued our boat.

Due to the what I will call idiocy of the choker hole affectionaley referred to as a resitrictor plate, she pulled a prop that would not plane her boat off. I'll talk about the prop situation later. Whoever or whatever group of people thought of using the choker hole rather than a governing device which would allow full throttle for 10 seconds or so, then cut back was obviously looking for the easiest way to slow down a motor. The choker hole is bad for engines, which are becoming harder and harder to find. A governor is not bad for engines.....

Now we get to prop selection. The second day, I screwed up by putting the choker hole on the motor backwards, which, kept the allowed the choke, not the choker hole to vibrate shut in the warm up lap, so, KT did not get to run. Once again, a governor or lowering the engine would slow the boats down just as effectively while allowinf full throttle for planing the APBA J props.

As KT came in disgusted, after all this racing thing is new to her, she has not been doing it as many others have since 9 years old, I pulled her boat up, gave her a hug, and many of the drivers and parents taked to explaining what she did wrong in the first heat and encouraging her after the second heat. Anyhow, Dale Bishop and I were stripping the boat getting ready for the 96 MPH ride home (I hate rev limiters on trucks as much as choker holes on engines) I see low and behold, bronze metalic nail polish on the hub of the prop that I did not see when I pulled the prop....

Prop selection. Clearly, it occurred to me that each J drviver should pick a number. The number they recieve, is the order in which they choose a prop, under the supervision of a J chairperson. The case should be held open in front of all the driver just like Ernie did at Parker. If there is a prop that won't plane, then remove it, mark and keep it aside from the case.

I hate cheaters worse than choker holes, and the person who put that nauil polish on the prop hub obviously tried that prop during Friday practice, marked it, and took/kept the prop that turned better time on their boat.

We learned alot this weekend, and I was upset watching KT try to plane off, and more upset when she continued plowing through the course after the white flag was out...And, appologized to the announcer who I snapped at, and moved on to the next phase....

Clearly, the number one thing region 12 drivers need to aggressivley lok for is runable water. 10 hours of driving to get blown out is for the birds. And, as an outsider it's easy to say this or that, but, why on certain sites, so long as an amubulance is present, can they not start at 7 Am with the drviers meeting, and run at 8 when the water is calm??? No critism here, I just really want to know...

[mercguy]

The weekend in Oroville was pretty much a bust, wind kicked up Saturday, and rigt about the time KTDoodle took the water trouble plagued our boat.

Due to the what I will call idiocy of the choker hole affectionaley referred to as a resitrictor plate, she pulled a prop that would not plane her boat off. I'll talk about the prop situation later. Whoever or whatever group of people thought of using the choker hole rather than a governing device which would allow full throttle for 10 seconds or so, then cut back was obviously looking for the easiest way to slow down a motor. The choker hole is bad for engines, which are becoming harder and harder to find. A governor is not bad for engines.....

Now we get to prop selection. The second day, I screwed up by putting the choker hole on the motor backwards, which, kept the allowed the choke, not the choker hole to vibrate shut in the warm up lap, so, KT did not get to run. Once again, a governor or lowering the engine would slow the boats down just as effectively while allowinf full throttle for planing the APBA J props.

As KT came in disgusted, after all this racing thing is new to her, she has not been doing it as many others have since 9 years old, I pulled her boat up, gave her a hug, and many of the drivers and parents taked to explaining what she did wrong in the first heat and encouraging her after the second heat. Anyhow, Dale Bishop and I were stripping the boat getting ready for the 96 MPH ride home (I hate rev limiters on trucks as much as choker holes on engines) I see low and behold, bronze metalic nail polish on the hub of the prop that I did not see when I pulled the prop....

Prop selection. Clearly, it occurred to me that each J drviver should pick a number. The number they recieve, is the order in which they choose a prop, under the supervision of a J chairperson. The case should be held open in front of all the driver just like Ernie did at Parker. If there is a prop that won't plane, then remove it, mark and keep it aside from the case.

I hate cheaters worse than choker holes, and the person who put that nauil polish on the prop hub obviously tried that prop during Friday practice, marked it, and took/kept the prop that turned better time on their boat.

We learned alot this weekend, and I was upset watching KT try to plane off, and more upset when she continued plowing through the course after the white flag was out...And, appologized to the announcer who I snapped at, and moved on to the next phase....

Clearly, the number one thing region 12 drivers need to aggressivley lok for is runable water. 10 hours of driving to get blown out is for the birds. And, as an outsider it's easy to say this or that, but, why on certain sites, so long as an amubulance is present, can they not start at 7 Am with the drviers meeting, and run at 8 when the water is calm??? No critism here, I just really want to know...



I have to speak up and stand up for Reg10 and the Oroville race course here, because it is not their fault that mother nature showed up. If you have not raced at Oroville before, then you now realize that it can get very windy there, but any race course can have unexpected bad weather conditions, etc. If you think you can organize all the racers, race committee, safety officials, ambulance and the rest of the hard workers that go into putting on a race and get them all to show up for driver's meeting (at 7am)and start a race at 8am, I suggest you try it, it AIN'T gonna happen. NO ONE can predict the weather and what time it will show it's ugly head. I have made that 10hr trip to Oroville(and several other 9-10hr drives) and had a day "blown off" due to weather (a couple times), but it is not the region's fault, so it does no good to complain about it. Hell, I have even made a 22hr drive to have one day blown off.

as to the restrictor plate thing, that is part of J racing (and has been proved to work) and most others make it work, so do not feel like you are being picked on. Also, the restrictor plate is used in many other classes also and used QUITE SUCCESSFULLY I might add. The fastest 20SSH's in Reg10 run a resticted 302. There are also several FACTORY fishing motors that run restrictors behind the carb in them, so saying that it hurts the motors, is not true at all. There are also TONS of available OMC 15hp fishing motors out there that can be used to make into a race version. I see several of them a week for sale on Craigslist for less than $700 for a complete motor, of which you can resell the parts not used and recouple some of your money. Racing is not cheap (I do not care what anybody says, it does cost $$ to win), but neither is any other type of motor sport.

this is not a criticism towards you at all, but rather what happens at a boat race............whether it is in Reg10, 11, or 12, it can happen anywhere..........

just go have fun with KT!!! She is a big girl and am sure will make the best of it!

[MissKTdoodle]

The weekend in Oroville was pretty much a bust, wind kicked up Saturday, and rigt about the time KTDoodle took the water trouble plagued our boat.

Due to the what I will call idiocy of the choker hole affectionaley referred to as a resitrictor plate, she pulled a prop that would not plane her boat off. I'll talk about the prop situation later. Whoever or whatever group of people thought of using the choker hole rather than a governing device which would allow full throttle for 10 seconds or so, then cut back was obviously looking for the easiest way to slow down a motor. The choker hole is bad for engines, which are becoming harder and harder to find. A governor is not bad for engines.....

Now we get to prop selection. The second day, I screwed up by putting the choker hole on the motor backwards, which, kept the allowed the choke, not the choker hole to vibrate shut in the warm up lap, so, KT did not get to run. Once again, a governor or lowering the engine would slow the boats down just as effectively while allowinf full throttle for planing the APBA J props.

As KT came in disgusted, after all this racing thing is new to her, she has not been doing it as many others have since 9 years old, I pulled her boat up, gave her a hug, and many of the drivers and parents taked to explaining what she did wrong in the first heat and encouraging her after the second heat. Anyhow, Dale Bishop and I were stripping the boat getting ready for the 96 MPH ride home (I hate rev limiters on trucks as much as choker holes on engines) I see low and behold, bronze metalic nail polish on the hub of the prop that I did not see when I pulled the prop....

Prop selection. Clearly, it occurred to me that each J drviver should pick a number. The number they recieve, is the order in which they choose a prop, under the supervision of a J chairperson. The case should be held open in front of all the driver just like Ernie did at Parker. If there is a prop that won't plane, then remove it, mark and keep it aside from the case.

I hate cheaters worse than choker holes, and the person who put that nauil polish on the prop hub obviously tried that prop during Friday practice, marked it, and took/kept the prop that turned better time on their boat.

We learned alot this weekend, and I was upset watching KT try to plane off, and more upset when she continued plowing through the course after the white flag was out...And, appologized to the announcer who I snapped at, and moved on to the next phase....

Clearly, the number one thing region 12 drivers need to aggressivley lok for is runable water. 10 hours of driving to get blown out is for the birds. And, as an outsider it's easy to say this or that, but, why on certain sites, so long as an amubulance is present, can they not start at 7 Am with the drviers meeting, and run at 8 when the water is calm??? No critism here, I just really want to know...
Hey Dad-
I got a GREAT idea...
since I HATE J class anyways...
why don't I just NOT run it? That sounds like an idea!!!
But you will say I have to run it. Which isn't true. J Class Hydro is an option. I don't like that class personally and it is PRETTY ovbious that my boat doesn't either. I think I should run AXS and A drop J... J is all little kids and I am over it I am pretty much afraid of my boat now so I don't know what to do about it.

[DKL]

Why not make all of the props identical ,instead of pulling one out of the hat. seems like that would make it about boat setup and driver skill , it's for beginers to learn how to race ,not frustrate them ! And we wonder why we can't attract and keep people to race these classes.

At the very least all props used should be inspected for marks(markings) before the selection. and if theres a bad one get rid of it.

No, we can't change the weather .

All regions need to look into new venues for races, we only have 3 races for our tunnels here all year and no hydro classes anymore. 3 bucks a gallon and $120 a night hotels are going to make local racing more attractive in the future. It will never be cheap to race but there are some things that could be done to make it tolerable again.

[MissKTdoodle]

Why not make all of the props identical ,instead of pulling one out of the hat. seems like that would make it about boat setup and driver skill , it's for beginers to learn how to race ,not frustrate them ! And we wonder why we can't attract and keep people to race these classes.

At the very least all props used should be inspected for marks(markings) before the selection. and if theres a bad one get rid of it.

No, we can't change the weather .

All regions need to look into new venues for races, we only have 3 races for our tunnels here all year and no hydro classes anymore. 3 bucks a gallon and $120 a night hotels are going to make local racing more attractive in the future. It will never be cheap to race but there are some things that could be done to make it tolerable again.
that looks like a better idea. I am just tired of the J Restrictors. and my Hydro is a fast boat. Fast meaning NO J Class Hydro... ha

[DKL]

Hang in there KT, i'm sure your Dad will get the boat worked out for you,
don't throw your hands up just yet. In this sport there is a LOT of frustration when things don't go our way. It will get better and so will you !

Your day on the podium is coming soon !! turn your frustration into determination and be a Sportsman (woman) we are all pulling for you!!:)

[mercguy]

Why not make all of the props identical ,instead of pulling one out of the hat. seems like that would make it about boat setup and driver skill , it's for beginers to learn how to race ,not frustrate them ! And we wonder why we can't attract and keep people to race these classes.

At the very least all props used should be inspected for marks(markings) before the selection. and if theres a bad one get rid of it.

No, we can't change the weather .

All regions need to look into new venues for races, we only have 3 races for our tunnels here all year and no hydro classes anymore. 3 bucks a gallon and $120 a night hotels are going to make local racing more attractive in the future. It will never be cheap to race but there are some things that could be done to make it tolerable again.



all the props are pretty much the same, but is it pretty much impossible to make them all identical. They are all made by Dewald. But, every prop works different on every boat, so there is no perfect solution. That is why they are allowed to test props in J.

[mercguy]

Hey Dad-
I got a GREAT idea...
since I HATE J class anyways...
why don't I just NOT run it? That sounds like an idea!!!
But you will say I have to run it. Which isn't true. J Class Hydro is an option. I don't like that class personally and it is PRETTY ovbious that my boat doesn't either. I think I should run AXS and A drop J... J is all little kids and I am over it I am pretty much afraid of my boat now so I don't know what to do about it.


the J class is not just for little kids, but also designed to be the class where you learn to drive, hone in on your skills and learn the "rules of the road" and guidelines. For a beginner to jump right into A, is not a good idea, as you could get hurt or worse yet, hurt someone else. A is one of the most competitive classes in the stock ranks. If you are not comfortable with your boat now in J, A definately is not gonna be any better. I suggest you get a boat you are comfortable in, then you might just like J............:confused:

J is the stepping stone for growth..........

PS: don't give up on J, you will get it worked out eventually. Progress takes time and wining does not happen overnight. Just keep working and have Ernie build you a new boat !!!!!

[David Mason]

Frustration has more than set in for a LOT of parents of kids racing J category. If you don't have a lot of bucks to buy everything it is next to impossible to win unless there is gun jumpers, or some freak deal happening.

I will say it, yell at me if you want, J is for joke. The sooner you can get your kid out of restrictor plate J and AXSH the better. I would even go so far as to say don't let them start until they are old enough to run something else.

I for one am sick and tired of hearing about and seeing kids dissapointment clearly written on their faces because they could not plane off the stupid APBA prop in J. Instead of building the sport I feel it is a threat to the sport. But who am I ? NOBODY.

Apparently there are dissapointed kids on the west coast as well as here in the midwest.

[MissKTdoodle]

Hang in there KT, i'm sure your Dad will get the boat worked out for you,
don't throw your hands up just yet. In this sport there is a LOT of frustration when things don't go our way. It will get better and so will you !

Your day on the podium is coming soon !! turn your frustration into determination and be a Sportsman (woman) we are all pulling for you!!:)
as long as he puts me in anything BUT J, I will be fine. I just hate how slow that class is. and i start cussing when my boat doesnt win. I was SUPER heated when it decided to plane, then get off plane than die. I was in the middle of a stretch... crying screaming, cussing, and laughing. I was pretty nasty to others the rest of the day and it wasn't on purpose i was just pissed

[MissKTdoodle]

Frustration has more than set in for a LOT of parents of kids racing J category. If you don't have a lot of bucks to buy everything it is next to impossible to win unless there is gun jumpers, or some freak deal happening.

I will say it, yell at me if you want, J is for joke. The sooner you can get your kid out of restrictor plate J and AXSH the better. I would even go so far as to say don't let them start until they are old enough to run something else.

I for one am sick and tired of hearing about and seeing kids dissapointment clearly written on their faces because they could not plane off the stupid APBA prop in J. Instead of building the sport I feel it is a threat to the sport. But who am I ? NOBODY.

Apparently there are dissapointed kids on the west coast as well as here in the midwest.
THANK YOU DAVE!!!
My point EXACTLY Father. J CLASS HYDRO = SHOULD BE DROPPED! I do not want to race them any ways. I am afraid of my boat. and the LAST thing I need to do is have my boat die and have racers going around me... or better yet inexperienced racers. and i know i am inexperienced but i am better. Dad ALSO i honestly could CARE LESS about how long people are driving. no offense. I STILL have a chance to beat them correct?

[DKL]

as long as he puts me in anything BUT J, I will be fine. I just hate how slow that class is. and i start cussing when my boat doesnt win. I was SUPER heated when it decided to plane, then get off plane than die. I was in the middle of a stretch... crying screaming, cussing, and laughing. I was pretty nasty to others the rest of the day and it wasn't on purpose i was just pissed

What, KT cussing on the race course :rolleyes: ????Say it ain't so ,

[DKL]

Davis Mason, You are NOT a nobody, you and your kids , Me ,Skoontz and KT and Many ,Many OTHERS ARE what makes this Sport. Do not think you do not have a voice, Whether people like it or not New People into this Sport will be what saves it , Not the status Quo, Let's speak up in the correct way to the correct people to get things changed.

Unless new racers are attracted to this Sport in the near future,it will continue to dwindle to nonexistance.If you think I'm wrong just read the Propeller Magazine articles about committes being formed around the country to find ways to change things for the better. #1 PRIORITY for these committes is to figure out How to attract NEW,FIRST TIME, racers. also how to phase out old equipment eventually. and add new race sites. Lets face it
We all are not Champboat,with sponsorships and resources. We must pay our own way.

Speak Up, most clubs and associations Know unless the they can attract new people and keep them interested--sooner or later everyone loses.

[MissKTdoodle]

What, KT cussing on the race course :rolleyes: ????Say it ain't so ,
Yeah you know...
I'm watching my boat turn side ways. Me looking at other boats...
S***
F***
What the H*** is going on?
God D*** motors
haha you know like that laugh out loud:D

[MissKTdoodle]

Davis Mason, You are NOT a nobody, you and your kids , Me ,Skoontz and KT and Many ,Many OTHERS ARE what makes this Sport. Do not think you do not have a voice, Whether people like it or not New People into this Sport will be what saves it , Not the status Quo, Let's speak up in the correct way to the correct people to get things changed.

Unless new racers are attracted to this Sport in the near future,it will continue to dwindle to nonexistance.If you think I'm wrong just read the Propeller Magazine articles about committes being formed around the country to find ways to change things for the better. #1 PRIORITY for these committes is to figure out How to attract NEW,FIRST TIME, racers. also how to phase out old equipment eventually. and add new race sites. Lets face it
We all are not Champboat,with sponsorships and resources. We must pay our own way.

Speak Up, most clubs and associations Know unless the they can attract new people and keep them interested--sooner or later everyone loses.
You know I love my dads idea. Get rid of the J Hydro Class and place in a class called J V bottoms. They are two seaters, so two riders, they have 15 HP motors as well, but you are able to buy as new or old of motor you want. NO restrictor plates. Just all motor. If one motor is faster than another than it will be cut out of it. This way it is simple eBay- you can buy those motors ALL day WITH the lower units for 500 bucks. and no biggy. WAY easy and less stress. and no weight restriction i think he was mentioning to Ron... hha

[DKL]

Yeah you know...
I'm watching my boat turn side ways. Me looking at other boats...
S***
F***
What the H*** is going on?
God D*** motors
haha you know like that laugh out loud:D

C'mon KT ,just remember theres probably some little kids looking up to you,watching you at those races.

Believe me I know your frustration,I just raced my first two races this year,things did not go well like I wanted them to either,but I did learn ALOT and will be better prepared for the next time

[Skoontz]

Ok, we missed some points here.... First, getting out of J and going AXS ain't gunna happen in region 12, where races are closer, what few we are allowed to have due to the long eared galloot factor and other knit wittery. There are no AXS drivers in region 12, which means, region 11 and 6 hour minimum drvies.

Second. cheating. Marking propellers is cheating. Drawing props unsupervised is in the grey area, as long as drivers will choose props. Drawing numbers at drivers meetings, then going in sequence, pulling props from a box an inspectors or J person holds is the only fair way to do it. Second, realizing time and wind was an issue will over rule allowing a boat to come back and make a prop switch before the warm up lap...KT blew it there when she continued to plow water after the white was waved....She got an earfull from me, and a very nice region 10 or 11 lady A driver spoke to her about how it works...The thing that ticked me off with KT was I saw her looking down at the drivers meeting when Joe's wife explained about the planing issue, and drivers need to head back, or stop but not continue screwing up water for the boats racing... I walkled over and asked her if she heard and understood that, and, she nodded yes...Then, she plows water after white on the first heat....For this, she appologized as do/did I.... It's all part of the learning curve.

And, no boat would have ANY trouble getting on plane if a governor was used rather than a ridiculous hunk of metal with an undersized hole rammed through the center. Those things i order to work well need special engines designed to run at optimum using a choker hole rather than ruining inners for an engine designed to run with a normal throttle opening. I could care less who has success with them and how well they work in ANY application...They are antiquated, and the lazy way out. With a governor, which is easily added and not able to cheat once set, you would get full open throttle for 10-15 seconds, then it would cut back to the 38-42 MPH speeds to keep the boats safe. Far better using that then a hole choker. And, as long as we are picking props for J drivers, why not use the props themselves to slow the boats down rather than hole chokers? Make them thicker, duller, less diamter, and, lower the motor...You can take away the same MPH by those things, AND, get on plane without the hole choker....

The entire idea of J was as is said, to get drivers used to boats and the system and for entry level racing...But there is a problem with that as seen as well. We slow boats down to make them safer, and we have the you pick prop system, which people cheat on, and, along with the entry level racer comes costs, which, if you want to attract more blood into the sport, you have to get the costs down....Instead, the choker hole, added with the pick a prop, which is supposed to create entry level interests, also creates the entire need for the building of special boats, just for J. Theoretically, you should be able to run J, AXS, and A with one boat, as implyed by the rules of J and the intents communicated by very many parents and governing individuals within APBA. By specializing so much with the use of hole chokers, you can add to the cost of small safety gear, the cost of a custom boat because God forbid any one of our kids would loose a race. The entire idea behind you pick your J prop is to give each driver equal opportunity to win, OR, faulter. We are teaching Kt it's not how gracious you win, it's how well you played the game within the rules, and how gracious you can loose too. She got her first shot of dissappointment at Oroville, as Daves kids got there shot in Michigan. She blew it this weekend, we talked, and she is better for the next round now....

Oroville winds, nope, never ran there, had no idea winds came out of no where. I'm not criticsizing by any means, just figuring logisitics. The water was glass smooth at 6,7,8,9, and so on. It was a suggestion that's all.

With that said, I'll stick to what I've been cooking all along...Get rid of those stinking 3 pointers and make some Vee's or shallow tunnels that use F-N-R gearcases. Regulate speed by raising, then lowering the motor. They would run in 1' waves with wind, we did it all the time when we were kids on the river.

Anyhow, these are my thoughts. Clearly there has to be something better than a hole choker if the costs for entry level are kept to a minimum. My thoughts don't make me right or anyone else wrong, simply, attempt to make things better for all rather than a select few.

[MissKTdoodle]

C'mon KT ,just remember theres probably some little kids looking up to you,watching you at those races.

Believe me I know your frustration,I just raced my first two races this year,things did not go well like I wanted them to either,but I did learn ALOT and will be better prepared for the next time
oh i know that they are. I was just mad that people were passing me and i felt as if i was going to be hit.

[MissKTdoodle]

Second. cheating. Marking propellers is cheating. Drawing props unsupervised is in the grey area, as long as drivers will choose props. Drawing numbers at drivers meetings, then going in sequence, pulling props from a box an inspectors or J person holds is the only fair way to do it. Second, realizing time and wind was an issue will over rule allowing a boat to come back and make a prop switch before the warm up lap...KT blew it there when she continued to plow water after the white was waved....She got an earfull from me, and a very nice region 10 or 11 lady A driver spoke to her about how it works...The thing that ticked me off with KT was I saw her looking down at the drivers meeting when Joe's wife explained about the planing issue, and drivers need to head back, or stop but not continue screwing up water for the boats racing... I walkled over and asked her if she heard and understood that, and, she nodded yes...Then, she plows water after white on the first heat....For this, she appologized as do/did I.... It's all part of the learning curve.
DAD- that WASNT my fault... i didnt see the flags. if i saw them i would have gone in but you let me out late and i couldnt see it. no offense.

[Bunker Hill]

All fun things cost $$$$ as far as "throw away" motors from Ebay, they are just that, throw away. I, we the Hill's, myself ,Ron and Russ, have just purchased 2 A/J motors, yes, they are a bit spendy, if they continue to become rare, might they become an investment??
We are on the verge of fielding a 6 or 8 boat field for JSH, hopefully, all participants will adance to ASX and ASH we will see. All of the fun of racing DOES NOT happen on the race course, you mus test, practice tinker and persevere. Boat racing is about family, sportsmanship, excitment, copetition and cameraderie, A weekend on the road, father and daughter, even if mother nature or gremlins get the best of you is still, and always will have, the memories of a roadtrip with dad!!

So let's go racing!!!!
Bunker

[mercguy]

All fun things cost $$$$ as far as "throw away" motors from Ebay, they are just that, throw away. I, we the Hill's, myself ,Ron and Russ, have just purchased 2 A/J motors, yes, they are a bit spendy, if they continue to become rare, might they become an investment??
We are on the verge of fielding a 6 or 8 boat field for JSH, hopefully, all participants will adance to ASX and ASH we will see. All of the fun of racing DOES NOT happen on the race course, you mus test, practice tinker and persevere. Boat racing is about family, sportsmanship, excitment, copetition and cameraderie, A weekend on the road, father and daughter, even if mother nature or gremlins get the best of you is still, and always will have, the memories of a roadtrip with dad!!

So let's go racing!!!!
Bunker



you nailed it Bunker, that is what it is all about!!!!!!:)

you are supposed to learn from your mistakes and make the best of it.........and improve next time!

The J Class is where it all begins and has for so many years and Ernie and the rest of the J committee should be applauded for a job well done. The J class is HIGHLY successful in Reg10 and the "kids" are having a great time and working around setbacks, etc, that comes in ANY class and are making it work!

as to the expense of it all, that comes with any sport. As to the specialty boat for the class.....yep, that too........that is why I have 5 boats!:eek:

[DKL]

Well said Mr Hill, Has anyone looked into the Mini GT OR Pro GT classes like they run in the Michigan,Wisconsin areas . Small Tunnel Boats with stock 25's on them, That sounds like a good starter class also,they run about mid 40mph and drivers sit instead of lay down or kneel and would be good training to step up to 45'SS

[MissKTdoodle]

Well said Mr Hill, Has anyone looked into the Mini GT OR Pro GT classes like they run in the Michigan,Wisconsin areas . Small Tunnel Boats with stock 25's on them, That sounds like a good starter class also,they run about mid 40mph and drivers sit instead of lay down or kneel and would be good training to step up to 45'SS
That sounds pretty cool. How old do you have to be to drive them?

[DKL]

KT,
Mini GT with the stock 25hp-----12 yrs old

Pro GT with the mod 35 hp-------16 yrs old

Just do a search for mini gt and Mr. Dillons site will come up with all of the info. I think they are only doing it now in Michigan and Wisconsin. Maybe Ron and some others could get a class going for you guys in Southern Cali
It is run with other OPC classes and they run Tunnels and Vbottoms like your Dad is talking about and with fishing motors, not that J class is bad or anything ,it's just a idea that might catch on better in your area

[one eight-w]

They are running MGT in Minnesota. They should be proud as it is one if not the largest class at the events.

[bill boyes]

If someone wants to really get my dander up is to bad mouth the "J" program. Many and I will say again many drivers in all categorys started racing in the "J" category. The program has been a success for at least 25 years.
3 props that were returned to me Sunday had gold/brown finger nail polish on them. Looked to me that someone is painting the prop lock nut and the paint got on the props. props MUST NOT be marked and this practice MUST STOP. J's must have seperate testing time and yes some tested on Friday. KT should have had the same privilege Saturday. At least to see if she could plane off with the boat. I was not part of the race committee so I do not know why that did not happen. We in Region 11 feel bad that you came a long way and had a bad experience. Please give us another try.

[nightwing]

wish i started in jsr and jsh. when i start racing i was 16 and we had sport c boats. the little hydro u learn how to read the water.

[Scott23]

Whatever class your starting in, it is learning about the basics of racing. Knowing how a race is ran, how the clock works for the starts, milling, etc. If your kid is old enough to run a faster class for there first time out, its easy to set the throttle to only open half way. Once they feel comfortable then you give them a little bit more or open it up for them. Remember to listen to the selected few for advice and LISTEN!!!!! Most are veteran racers and have already done that. :)

[MissKTdoodle]

KT,
Mini GT with the stock 25hp-----12 yrs old

Pro GT with the mod 35 hp-------16 yrs old

Just do a search for mini gt and Mr. Dillons site will come up with all of the info. I think they are only doing it now in Michigan and Wisconsin. Maybe Ron and some others could get a class going for you guys in Southern Cali
It is run with other OPC classes and they run Tunnels and Vbottoms like your Dad is talking about and with fishing motors, not that J class is bad or anything ,it's just a idea that might catch on better in your area
sounds fun

[MissKTdoodle]

wish i started in jsr and jsh. when i start racing i was 16 and we had sport c boats. the little hydro u learn how to read the water.
Yeah... sounds about right Kevin. I still want to run A and AXSjust not J...

[MissKTdoodle]

If someone wants to really get my dander up is to bad mouth the "J" program. Many and I will say again many drivers in all categorys started racing in the "J" category. The program has been a success for at least 25 years.
3 props that were returned to me Sunday had gold/brown finger nail polish on them. Looked to me that someone is painting the prop lock nut and the paint got on the props. props MUST NOT be marked and this practice MUST STOP. J's must have seperate testing time and yes some tested on Friday. KT should have had the same privilege Saturday. At least to see if she could plane off with the boat. I was not part of the race committee so I do not know why that did not happen. We in Region 11 feel bad that you came a long way and had a bad experience. Please give us another try.
No worries Bill. I will. I am just mad at my boat. To be honest I had a good time at Region 11. Just the fact with my boat... that is what made me mad

[ricochet112]

If someone wants to really get my dander up is to bad mouth the "J" program. Many and I will say again many drivers in all categorys started racing in the "J" category. The program has been a success for at least 25 years.
3 props that were returned to me Sunday had gold/brown finger nail polish on them. Looked to me that someone is painting the prop lock nut and the paint got on the props. props MUST NOT be marked and this practice MUST STOP. J's must have seperate testing time and yes some tested on Friday. KT should have had the same privilege Saturday. At least to see if she could plane off with the boat. I was not part of the race committee so I do not know why that did not happen. We in Region 11 feel bad that you came a long way and had a bad experience. Please give us another try.

I saw this practice for the first time at the 2006 Stock and J Nats in Wakefield. The props were sealed like an engine seal, with nail polish on the nut and prop hub. I thought it was odd to put a mark on the prop. I was told they did it so no one would change props between heats. BUT the prop is left with a mark, (all the same color though).

KT and skoonz, if you thought the 3 blades were hard to plane you shoulda started when the 2 blades were used, A LOT harder to plane (for most). That's why 4 and 5 blades are popular on fishing boats, better hole shot.

You have 2 ways to govern an engine, mechanically by an RPM driven device, (a gear off the crank) or a rev limiter. Both could be tampered with and both would be extremely expensive to use on 1 out of the 3 classes the engine is used in.

Johnyrude uses a smaller carb on the 9.9 to limit HP from 15, and Merc has used a restrictor plate in their production engines to turn a 15 into a 10. Restricors are proven, practical and the most FAIR way to limit an engines output.

We all have made mistakes with the restictor, leaving them out with a J prop on, putting them in back wards, leaving them in when they should of come out...

It's not the restrictor or the J class, it's just getting used to something new. Ask questions, watch others and then ask more questions and you'll get on plane just fine.

[Joe J]

KT:

We had J test time on Sat morning. What we should have done was inform you personally that this was going to happen. Since this is new to you and your dad, we should have thought about that.

Bunker said it best: Boat racing is about the total family experience, there is more to it that just driving the boat.

Joe

[Skoontz]

Bill:

On a good note, we did have a fun time, Katie got a couple new buddies, Lauren Johnson and I forgot the other girl's name who is the scorer...Blonde hair, braces, and pretty..Dale gave us alot of badly needed help that I have yet to see in too many other places, as did Joe and others. Jeff Akers gave me a bunch of 50's OMC manuals and service rep locations which I will scan and post later. Having opportunity to talk to you, and many others was very lifting. All in all, we had fun. Oroville is an incredible town and the concept of the races promoting towns business is one that grew within and I will be presenting a case to the good folks in Julian soon. The funniest thing of the wekeend was my wife, Patti and my choice for dinner. We brought food to grille, but then Katie and Lauren were going to hang out, so Joe let her have dinner with them and we hit the town. We ate at the Depot, a fun place that was an old railroad depot converted to an eatery. We stood in line for 15 minutes behind some folks, a party of 7 or so, and the hostess was speaking this party full of Ruckers...She even asked the guy in front of us if they were sure they were not any of the Ruckers...
We were dying! Like any person does or does not know who they are!!!!The place was packed beyond anyhwere I;m sure they had ever been, and the steaks were awesome.

Anyhow, if somehow the mayor, whose name escapes me, could compose a letter of reference so I can show Julian town council, or for that matter any other starving town in Socal who has water, it would mean alot to promoting boat racing on region 12 water. Your and Dales offer to keep our boat/motor up there and fly to events was very warm and tempting and still under consideration, I'm truck lagged now....

On a bad note...Cheating...Which is what marking props is, accidentally or not.....After the day, weekend we had, that was the final straw. I stand firm with restrictor plates need to go. I'll beat that drum until someone either get so sick of hearing it, and/or caves in and does something about it. They wreck engines, they ruin accelaration and basically, they are a dumb idea for a problem that can be handled at least one of 5, or any of 5 ways to slow boats down without destroying power...And I don't care who has made using them successful...

J program, has good intent and has been successful in some ways, and has failed in as many. It has failed in the respect that it's intent was to be able to start people to move up the ladder affordably. It has evolved into a highly specialized boat/motor combination that is a slower speed equivelant to a pro class. Engines in the J/A series of boats are the silent killer and to give them slow death using choke collars is the icing on the cake.

Joe:

It was great meting you and your family....KT and Lauren got along great! But, I was there from 7AM on. When were J boats being tested? I would have loved to see that.

Anyway, that's my weekend. And, that's what needs to be done. Now weather it gets done or not remains yet to be seen.....

[Joe J]

Bill:

It was announced, and happened just before the first heat of the day. They were given 15 minutes. the first heat went off at 10:30.

As to the restrictor program, I think we will agee to disagree. I happen to firmly believe it in. When Lauren first started, we had some of the same issues you and KT are currently facing.

It was good to meet you.

Joe



Joe:

It was great meting you and your family....KT and Lauren got along great! But, I was there from 7AM on. When were J boats being tested? I would have loved to see that.

Anyway, that's my weekend. And, that's what needs to be done. Now weather it gets done or not remains yet to be seen.....

[mercguy]

Bill:

On a good note, we did have a fun time, Katie got a couple new buddies, Lauren Johnson and I forgot the other girl's name who is the scorer...Blonde hair, braces, and pretty..Dale gave us alot of badly needed help that I have yet to see in too many other places, as did Joe and others. Jeff Akers gave me a bunch of 50's OMC manuals and service rep locations which I will scan and post later. Having opportunity to talk to you, and many others was very lifting. All in all, we had fun. Oroville is an incredible town and the concept of the races promoting towns business is one that grew within and I will be presenting a case to the good folks in Julian soon. The funniest thing of the wekeend was my wife, Patti and my choice for dinner. We brought food to grille, but then Katie and Lauren were going to hang out, so Joe let her have dinner with them and we hit the town. We ate at the Depot, a fun place that was an old railroad depot converted to an eatery. We stood in line for 15 minutes behind some folks, a party of 7 or so, and the hostess was speaking this party full of Ruckers...She even asked the guy in front of us if they were sure they were not any of the Ruckers...
We were dying! Like any person does or does not know who they are!!!!The place was packed beyond anyhwere I;m sure they had ever been, and the steaks were awesome.

Anyhow, if somehow the mayor, whose name escapes me, could compose a letter of reference so I can show Julian town council, or for that matter any other starving town in Socal who has water, it would mean alot to promoting boat racing on region 12 water. Your and Dales offer to keep our boat/motor up there and fly to events was very warm and tempting and still under consideration, I'm truck lagged now....

On a bad note...Cheating...Which is what marking props is, accidentally or not.....After the day, weekend we had, that was the final straw. I stand firm with restrictor plates need to go. I'll beat that drum until someone either get so sick of hearing it, and/or caves in and does something about it. They wreck engines, they ruin accelaration and basically, they are a dumb idea for a problem that can be handled at least one of 5, or any of 5 ways to slow boats down without destroying power...And I don't care who has made using them successful...

J program, has good intent and has been successful in some ways, and has failed in as many. It has failed in the respect that it's intent was to be able to start people to move up the ladder affordably. It has evolved into a highly specialized boat/motor combination that is a slower speed equivelant to a pro class. Engines in the J/A series of boats are the silent killer and to give them slow death using choke collars is the icing on the cake.

Joe:

It was great meting you and your family....KT and Lauren got along great! But, I was there from 7AM on. When were J boats being tested? I would have loved to see that.

Anyway, that's my weekend. And, that's what needs to be done. Now weather it gets done or not remains yet to be seen.....



now, I have 2 questions before I move on:

1) how does a restrictor ruin an engine????? I have been a certified Mercury/Mariner/Johnson/Evinrude/Mercruiser tech for the last 19yrs and have NEVER heard or seen an engine ruined do to the restrictor and there probably have been hundreds of thousands of motors built with them installed.

2) although I can understand you wanting to start out in racing affordable, there is no statement about the J class being the entry level "affordable" class. Nothing is cheap nowadays and will only get more expensive. It still is an affordable sport. You can buy a BRAND NEW J rig for around $5000, which would include boat, motor, hardware and a prop. Is that so bad?? It still would be the least expensive class to enter buying BRAND NEW equipment. I figure when I put my DSH on the water here shortly, I will have spent closer to $12,000 for it...............so $5000 sounds good to me!

anyways, I am sure you guys will be back on the water real soon and having LOTS of fun again............

PS: I know of (2) complete ASH rigs for sale up here for around $2500, including boat, OMC A motor and prop..............killer deals!

[carl lewis]

Hi all,
first off I have not read most of the replies on this thread, however the ones I did read came from experienced racers, that being said heres my take.

I have been a J dad for 9 years now and am fully involved with the HARM J project the past two years ( for those of you who don't know what that is it is the hydroplane and race boat museum J hydro project where families build their own boats and race them with in APBA.
at the races I spend a lot of time working with the new J families to get their kids on plane and racing as do many others in region 10.

The J class weather it is hydro or runabout can be frustrating for quite a few reasons, lets start with the first reason
New drivers, Kids starting out honestly don't have a clue what is going on out there and it does not matter that they grew up in a racing family or it is their first time at a race they don't know what getting on plane or prop blow out is all about ( how many J dads on here do the big lean in the pits trying to get your kid on plane knowing damn well beach driving wont work.
DRIVING ANY CLASS TAKES TIME, and it is really hard to explain it to a 9-12 year old actually any rookie for that matter.

restrictor plates well this is what we have and have had since the OMC motors have been run in J,and the merc's as well, can they be a pain to put in, yes, have I ever put one in backwards yes!!!! the best way to check is by pushing the choke ALL the way in after installation, this way you know as it only fits one way further more some kids weigh a bit more than others and some are real light this requiring a ton of lead in the boat either way it is a pain in the a$$ for everyone, ive had days when it plains out easy the first heat and the 2nd it wont do crap... go figure..... the motor needs all it can have and by a governor on the throttle is NOT the way to go

props, well like Mike said you should have been around for the two blade days if you think this is hard.
Some regions will take a bad prop and mark it and keep it on the box so it will not cause frustration or maybe send it back to APBA for fixing ( this is not confirmed so dont go saying anything) for a few years they all were marked with some paint after dewald did some work on them, why ? I have no idea maybe it was for a region color or maybe Craig would know what ones were repaired and which ones were not, as far as paint on them today, well like I read maybe an inspector marked them so they would be the same prop run in the second heat, I have by the way seen it when the kids had to return the prop after the first heat and blind draw for the second heat so you never know what happens but I honestly believe that no one is cheating with props any way, it takes way to much time and effort just to get the kids out there let alone try to run an illegal prop.

Bottom line is this, find someone who has been around a few years, who has run this J class and get with them EARLY in the morning, ask questions, see if they can help you during J testing, you might need to run a bit lower than 1 3/8 and maybe tucked or kicked out from the last time you tested or raced, every body of water is different and every heat is different. by the way what have you been testing with ?? was it A class or J class?? what height?? what kick out??? are you writing any of this down and keeping a record??? what weight??? there are so many variables involved.

don't take this the wrong way but you are not going to change the class because KT is having problems, believe me we all have had YEARS of frustrations but the rewards are so special when you kid finally wins a race after a couple of years of trying, it just takes time. come up to region some time and we will give you all the help we can, look at the Capitol lake race we spend the whole day Friday testing, and the box of J props will be there.

I believe you still have my phone number and are welcome to call me any time and we can discuss this matter more.

Regards,
Carl Lewis

[Skoontz]

) how does a restrictor ruin an engine????? I have been a certified Mercury/Mariner/Johnson/Evinrude/Mercruiser tech for the last 19yrs and have NEVER heard or seen an engine ruined do to the restrictor and there probably have been hundreds of thousands of motors built with them installed.


Daren:

Having worked next to dad as he tinkered much like the Quincy team, but never in the same capacity, all I can tell you is this. Without taking cylinder head temps under wway, I can't give you an exact destruction rate. I will guaranty that the combustion chambers are hotter running a choke collar. This, causes piston/ring/cylinder failures over time. If engines are designed around using the choke collar, that adds a different perspective to the mix. I would assume all parts in the aspiration systems would be tuned to the choke collar and not effect it's usage. Maybe you can't give me one failure due to choke collars, but, that's only because no one has monitored the situation closley. I'm sure they tear down engines, add internal parts as needed just assuming it was wear from racing.

As a gearhead, the last thing I want on my 20 year old obsolete motor is a restrictor. As a dad, the first thing I want is something that can work better than the easiest route out of the problem. I want a better route out of the problem. Perhaps regulated flow of water into the exhaust would be a way to bump low end, (planing off) and restrict high end speed, affordably, and easily. Or, how about the old reliable, lower the motor....Duh!

Any one of 5 or all of 5 fixes rather than the choke collar.....

Carl:

I am by no means asking anyone to change a class. I'm telling them they set it wrong in the first place....Bill Rucker told me what he did with this boat when Kim ran it, and, we set it that way EXACTLY! The difference is Ernie Dawe moved the transom back 1 1/2" or so which would do nothing but make it plane and handle better...

PM me your phone if you can, I'm going to make this thing work, and at the same time, things need to be looked beyond status quo....There is a better way to do this....

[carl lewis]

You know I love my dads idea. Get rid of the J Hydro Class and place in a class called J V bottoms. They are two seaters, so two riders, they have 15 HP motors as well, but you are able to buy as new or old of motor you want. NO restrictor plates. Just all motor. If one motor is faster than another than it will be cut out of it. This way it is simple eBay- you can buy those motors ALL day WITH the lower units for 500 bucks. and no biggy. WAY easy and less stress. and no weight restriction i think he was mentioning to Ron... hha

it was called the mouse class and it went no where fast since no one wanted them.

[mercguy]

Hi all,
first off I have not read most of the replies on this thread, however the ones I did read came from experienced racers, that being said heres my take.

I have been a J dad for 9 years now and am fully involved with the HARM J project the past two years ( for those of you who don't know what that is it is the hydroplane and race boat museum J hydro project where families build their own boats and race them with in APBA.
at the races I spend a lot of time working with the new J families to get their kids on plane and racing as do many others in region 10.

The J class weather it is hydro or runabout can be frustrating for quite a few reasons, lets start with the first reason
New drivers, Kids starting out honestly don't have a clue what is going on out there and it does not matter that they grew up in a racing family or it is their first time at a race they don't know what getting on plane or prop blow out is all about ( how many J dads on here do the big lean in the pits trying to get your kid on plane knowing damn well beach driving wont work.
DRIVING ANY CLASS TAKES TIME, and it is really hard to explain it to a 9-12 year old actually any rookie for that matter.

restrictor plates well this is what we have and have had since the OMC motors have been run in J,and the merc's as well, can they be a pain to put in, yes, have I ever put one in backwards yes!!!! the best way to check is by pushing the choke ALL the way in after installation, this way you know as it only fits one way further more some kids weigh a bit more than others and some are real light this requiring a ton of lead in the boat either way it is a pain in the a$$ for everyone, ive had days when it plains out easy the first heat and the 2nd it wont do crap... go figure..... the motor needs all it can have and by a governor on the throttle is NOT the way to go

props, well like Mike said you should have been around for the two blade days if you think this is hard.
Some regions will take a bad prop and mark it and keep it on the box so it will not cause frustration or maybe send it back to APBA for fixing ( this is not confirmed so dont go saying anything) for a few years they all were marked with some paint after dewald did some work on them, why ? I have no idea maybe it was for a region color or maybe Craig would know what ones were repaired and which ones were not, as far as paint on them today, well like I read maybe an inspector marked them so they would be the same prop run in the second heat, I have by the way seen it when the kids had to return the prop after the first heat and blind draw for the second heat so you never know what happens but I honestly believe that no one is cheating with props any way, it takes way to much time and effort just to get the kids out there let alone try to run an illegal prop.

Bottom line is this, find someone who has been around a few years, who has run this J class and get with them EARLY in the morning, ask questions, see if they can help you during J testing, you might need to run a bit lower than 1 3/8 and maybe tucked or kicked out from the last time you tested or raced, every body of water is different and every heat is different. by the way what have you been testing with ?? was it A class or J class?? what height?? what kick out??? are you writing any of this down and keeping a record??? what weight??? there are so many variables involved.

don't take this the wrong way but you are not going to change the class because KT is having problems, believe me we all have had YEARS of frustrations but the rewards are so special when you kid finally wins a race after a couple of years of trying, it just takes time. come up to region some time and we will give you all the help we can, look at the Capitol lake race we spend the whole day Friday testing, and the box of J props will be there.

I believe you still have my phone number and are welcome to call me any time and we can discuss this matter more.

Regards,
Carl Lewis



now Carl, take that past J driver (for hire) of yours (Kyle) out from behind the wheel of that 69-R boat, so the rest of us will have a chance to win a race........:eek: :eek: :eek:

[MissKTdoodle]

it was called the mouse class and it went no where fast since no one wanted them.
Hey Carl-
How did you all promote it?

[Mark75H]

Hey Carl-
How did you all promote it?

It was promoted heavily and for quite a while. There were even boats at Disney World that guests at the hotel complex could use for free. (That's why they had the nickname "mouse boat") It hardly had enough boats to run at any real race, dispite the heavy promotion. Sort of like a little green grape that shrivels up into a rasin without ever ripening. A lot of money went down that hole, with no positive result.

People also complained that the "MerCub" fiberglass tunnel boats were slow and boring; I don't know about boring but they were expensive. I think they were $3200 for the boat alone. Add up everything you'd need and it was $5000 or so to get on the water ... and this was some time back when $5000 was even more than today.

Basically you could say we've been there and done that - and it left a bad taste in our mouth.

[David Mason]

First let me clarify my position. I think the J class is good for the kids. I simply don't like the current system being used. I think it threatens the sports ability to grow from the bottom up.

So given I have been in boat racing for over 25 years and having started at 7 testing J Mod boats and racing at age, I came up through the ranks. All J is basically a learner class that when you crash won't hurt as much as the adult classes.

Given that, and the fact that most clubs WILL leave a child behind so that the program can continue I think it needs changed. One way to give more time is to combine and eliminate some classes to shorten the day up.

Here is a better proposal and one I feel should have been in place from the start, since they are regulating everything else. Place rules on boats. You have a certain builder who seems to think it is all about speed and how to push all gray areas of the rule book for the entry level kids, thus leaving them frustrated. They inset the transoms, and angle them differently than most. It causes the boat to be hard to plane off. Then they place a bunch of steps in the bottom to offset the height rules. Yes, these boats are fast and yes they win. A lot of kids don't have the ability to use these boats, should this penalize them ? Some people are simply not as adept as others. There is nothing wrong with this.

So given that, I feel there should be rules placed on the boat design. Transom has to be located in "X" place, at "X" angle. No steps in the bottom allowed. Bottom break is to be located between "X" and "X" measured from the rear of the bottom and also from the front leading edge. Air traps must be between "X" min and "X" max and also "X" length. No tunnels allowed in the bottom.

If this and perhaps a couple other things to the boats are done this could stand a chance to eliminate the frustrations of parents and kids alike. It would tighten up fields and allow more kids to be competitive.

Now then, testing. It is pointless to go and test a J rig with a Test prop from Dewald. Sure they are close, and you can get max performance and feel good. Then you draw a different prop to race with and you are back to being frustrated. The only good testing does is to get the kid seat time.

That is my feeling on the subject. It is in no way a slam on Dewald props, just the simple truth that no two props can be truly identical. Boats are different therefore props will not run idnetical on each boat. Regulate the boat bottoms and you might see a lot less frustrations.

By the way, it was not my kids last weekend, it was my team mates kids. I don't have any kids of my own.

[Skoontz]

Add props to be pulled in sequence in front of an inspector, all marks removed or sprayed over so you can't identify one from the next. I realize there are too many choke hole lovers at this point to ever regulate engine speed the right way, and this is the next best thing.
And I know early starts may very well be prohibitive, but why can't where it is allowed, quiet classes run early to get more water time for everyone else?

Just a thought, no synicsm here by any means as I try and comprehend how this racing thing really works......

[ricochet112]

Add props to be pulled in sequence in front of an inspector, all marks removed or sprayed over so you can't identify one from the next. I realize there are too many choke hole lovers at this point to ever regulate engine speed the right way, and this is the next best thing.
And I know early starts may very well be prohibitive, but why can't where it is allowed, quiet classes run early to get more water time for everyone else?

Just a thought, no synicsm here by any means as I try and comprehend how this racing thing really works......

When Rocky Peterson (region 10 J class rep) distributed props at Lake Lawrence records this year, he layed them out wrapped in plastic bags and the kids grabbed one at random, not being able to see it first, very fair.

Please leave the restrictor thing alone, lover of restricors, hardly. Yes they change an engines performance and run-ability, but damage them, completely absurd on our engines (heck if they ruined engines NASCAR wouldn't mandate them). BUT any other way that is quick (too many changes happen on these engines during the day for a time consuming change, ie. height ect...) would add another expense to the mix.

The 2 biggest factors of KT not planning the boat were, the boat has a stepped bottom and she isn't comfortable putting a foot on the deck yet. When she gets comfortable with a foot out of the cockpit she'll plane out fine.
One other factor that comes with time is listening to the engine rev up and BACKING off the throttle, only a little, just before the boat gets on plane or starts to cavitate, to prevent it from blowing out.

If you can make it to Cullaby or Capitol Lake in region 10, you'll need a note pad for all the info, tips and help you'll get. Heck, I have a race ready boat (just add motor) that planes easily and is forgiving for $450 that will get her on the water so KT can get some seat time. Or you can borrow it for a race so she can drive something different to feel and drive a proven J, AX, ASH boat so she can have a bench mark.

Starting from scratch without a mentor can be an infuriating experience. Don't let one set back get you down. It's not the restictors, just ask any fast ASR or ASH guy, they all have one REALLY fast prop that will only get on a plane once in a while. To plane EASY you need horsepower, more than the A class has.

[Brian10sCSH]

For starters - I started racing JSR in '83 and have since run just about every Hydro class with the exception of D & FE since then, at one point or another. The J class teaches everything that you will ever need to know about driving a boat in a safe environment. All the rest is experience. That is why there is a restrictor to keep the speed slow and standard props. That said, I do agree with Dave that because this is racing, some people will push the envelope and create special boats to win. However, that is the case in every form of racing, to carts, to BMX bike, etc. and remains the case in every bigger class of boat racing. Someone will always do more homework and/or spend more money to win. Unless the J classes are set up like IROC with exactly the same boats, motors and props, there will always be the haves and the have nots. Should more rules be put in place, I don't know. Talk to the J Chairman since both Mark Wheeler and Ernie Dawe have a vast amount of experience and are open to new ideas.

1st - back in the days of the 60 J's there were more than one time that I didn't race because the boat did not plane off. It happens to the best of us. One thing my Dad did when we ran J was to place stickers on the deck where your foot and/or hand goes every time when you get on plane. If you can duplicate the drivers possition each and every time, it is easier to make changes to set up and make getting on plane easier.

2nd - paint on the J props. At most National events, props are marked (ie all props) so that the inspector know that the prop run is an offical prop. While Dewald does not make competition J props to be sold to the racers (only test props that are a different color), there have been rumors that some people have paid big money to have test props colored or have other makes made that looks like an original Dewald. So, if your prop was marked, check the rest of them to be certain that they all were not marked the same. I have also seen some props marked that did not run well and were to be sent back for reworking. Don't know if this is what happen in your case, just a possibility.

[bill boyes]

I will be the one that will handle the J props this year at the Stock Nationals. Each prop will be placed in a numbered paper bag and the kids will draw a number and match the paper bag number. I will be in inspection to collect the props and will inspect them for any tampering. Three props were returned to me last weekend had a small amount of finger nail polish on them. Looked to me that someone painted the lock nut and some of it got onto the props. There has been several e-mails about this yesterday and today that marking of the props will not allowed and to stop doing so now. I will be checking this at the nationals and report it to the inspector any findings.
So bottom line the props given to the kids will NOT be marked (except for DeWalds markings) if when removed at inspection they are marked the inspector may DQ the driver.

[David Mason]

Bill, at Nat's DQ them, not "may". I like your prop idea. And to further it, would you please be the one to remove the props from the engines before ANY parents can even get to them ? In todays racing trailers there are these wonderful inventions called cordless impacts. They work terffic for J prop changes. You can buzz all 12 props off the prop shafts in perhaps 5 minutes. Replace the prop nut onto the shaft, and hand the shear pin to the kid to give to the parent or guardian. This would definately eliminate any chance of special props. If they don't want to lose their high dollar cheating copy to you, they won't run it.

To even further this, why not make this mandatory at all races in which J is run ? Let the inspector pull the props in inspection.

I still feel there needs to be a restriction on the J boats. At the very least transom placement steps. Make it so everyone can plane off and be competitive. Let the decks be different, unique to the builder or whatever. But put the transom in a certain place with the certain angle.

10S, I know you can't make it equal, but the whole purpose of my idea is to plane all the kids off without any effort and thus help shorten the program.

[bill boyes]

Dave, I'am not the inspector nor the Referee so I cannot DQ anyone. Like I said the Inspector will be advised.
Most J hydros are ASH boats. Some have the transoms moved forward. This maybe ok for a "A" but it really hurts a "J" in planning off. It has been said on this thread that testing and practice pays off. I have had a "J" prop returned to me as "would not plane off" Take the same prop on another boat and driver and the boat planes off with no problem. Some of the J kids have weak motors etc. It does help to have a well tuned motor. One of the problems is that the boat is set up for max height taking out a riv stick or 2 out does help. But a poor running motor is a real battle.

[Skoontz]

The help just off this thread has been amazing. And I did not want to sound as negative as i may have, still believe in other ways than restrictor plates to slow motors, but that's not the issue right now....

I'll be able to tell you exactly how much damage they do to engines after I run some calcs and meter the engine in a week or so. When NASCAR first implemented the restrictors, there was not a team who did not have issues keeping engines together. Through time, testing, and keeping records, they have evolved to make the restricted engines last longer and almost run as fast....Anytime you choke fuel and air through a part not intended for the design of the engine and the key is AFTER the carb, not through the carb, you alter the amount of fuel/lubrication the engine recieves. You also add heat. I'm going to find out how much. One other thing...Is it Seaway Marine I buy gasket and hard parts from? It's time to get serious about this engine thing just the way dad would have. Second, when I pull the engine down, even if I don't alter any thing, will it have to be certified like we did on the AQMA circut?

[ricochet112]

Sea-Way Marine 206-937-7373 ask for Dave.
The only time some one will look inside your motor is doing well at Divisionals , Nationals or setting a record.
You could ask Ernie Dawe on who in your area could help on making sure your parts were all legal. Maybe talk to Gary Lewis.
There are a lot of J's in region 10, I hope you make it up at least once this year, at least Moses Lake Nationals.

Mike Bartlett

As far as jetting a restricted engine, you reduce the jet size to compensate for the reduced air. So in theory the engine will run richer with a plate and the same size jet. Most people who run a restricted Yamato 302 in 20SSH lean the engine out, or don't change the mixture. Never really thought about it much, restrictors work fine, and it's the rule for J.

[bill boyes]

Sea-Way Marine 206-937-7373 ask for Dave.
The only time some one will look inside your motor is doing well at Divisionals , Nationals or setting a record.
You could ask Ernie Dawe on who in your area could help on making sure your parts were all legal. Maybe talk to Gary Lewis.
There are a lot of J's in region 10, I hope you make it up at least once this year, at least Moses Lake Nationals.

Mike Bartlett

As far as jetting a restricted engine, you reduce the jet size to compensate for the reduced air. So in theory the engine will run richer with a plate and the same size jet. Most people who run a restricted Yamato 302 in 20SSH lean the engine out, or don't change the mixture. Never really thought about it much, restrictors work fine, and it's the rule for J. Actually they richen about 4 clicks. Does not make sense to me but that is what they do.

[ricochet112]

Actually they richen about 4 clicks. Does not make sense to me but that is what they do.

Must be a new thing in the last 2 years, no one was doing that when I ran 20SSH. Yes it doesn't make sense, but that's why people try odd things to see what happens.

I know that a J will load up if you test wheel or warm it up too slowly, low RPM's. But that could be how a deflector (cross flow?) engine vs a looper responds to being restricted.

ADD: I did say most not all.

[Skoontz]

Actually they richen about 4 clicks. Does not make sense to me but that is what they do.



They richen so they don't puke the motor Bill. In reality, yeah, less air, less fuel...however, in a choked down motor, after ventura, you restrict oil flow to the inners, so, in order to compensate, they fatten them up which in turn makes the parts work better. Which is the theroy on why restricted motors get wrecked without specifically tuning them for the choked down intake.....

On a car, such as NASCAR, the flow was changed to allow the lack of fuel to cool valves better. With a two stroke that runs mix fuel, mess with air/fuel comming in, and mess with lubrication in the same act.

But what I'm hearing here, correct me if I'm wrong, is that people are rejetting carbs on J motors so they run better choked down? Is that not dictated as a no no in the J motor rule book, BECAUSE the engine was/is not as the factory made it?

[ricochet112]

You can run any size jet you want on the J & E 15

On Merc's factory 8hp, ser#OG760300-OT979999, it uses a restrictor to become a 6hp, it uses a smaller main jet, a .042 vs .046 on an 8hp.

I have never heard of ANY issues with the restrictors we use on the J & E motor, EVER. My son has set 4 records and our team mates, the Hannon's have around 20-25 records with the current J and AXS restricted motors.

So we must be lucky then, huh?

[Skoontz]

I would say 99% skill for the records, 99% luck for the engines.

How often do you tear down, bore, hone, etc? Is that a yearly thing, several times seasonally, or do you run the same motor several years? And, how many laps do you have on the engine(s)? and what is the length (time out of start, through milling, then race, then come in and shut down) of your average heat? What do the cylinders look like when you yank the heads off? Or, do you randomly change powerheads, and/or rework engines?

We were at Dale Bishops pit which was right behind Hannons and I saw the dad taking compression tests on a motor and did not hear the exact outcome, but, that motor was not run because one cylinder dropped compression.....The top one, which in a siamese twin 2 banger, the top one is going to run hotter.....

There will not be as bad of a problem with a restricted AXS motor because the hole size is larger and closer to factory and it allows more fuel/lube/air to work in the motior and cool the hard parts inside.

One thing is sure. You can't cut 40% of the diameter of any given flow way, in this case we use the factory carb, and intake, add the 1/2" restrictor and you loose 40% of the hole size allowing fuel, lubricant (oil) and air to make the other sciences of that design work. If this was the case, OMC would have designed using a 1/2" hole because out of the hundreds of thousands of those motors made, they would have saved aluminum and had higher profits....

I would love to here what Michael Gwaltney and Jim Nerstrom would have to add to my conclusion, as they had a hand in designing this engine when they worked at OMC. So, if you guys are following this thread, please feel free to chime in.

And keep this discussion going by all means. I don't want to sound argumentative by any means, just simply adding to my core knowledge from those who have been down roads I have not....

[mercguy]

Actually they richen about 4 clicks. Does not make sense to me but that is what they do.



They richen so they don't puke the motor Bill. In reality, yeah, less air, less fuel...however, in a choked down motor, after ventura, you restrict oil flow to the inners, so, in order to compensate, they fatten them up which in turn makes the parts work better. Which is the theroy on why restricted motors get wrecked without specifically tuning them for the choked down intake.....

On a car, such as NASCAR, the flow was changed to allow the lack of fuel to cool valves better. With a two stroke that runs mix fuel, mess with air/fuel comming in, and mess with lubrication in the same act.

But what I'm hearing here, correct me if I'm wrong, is that people are rejetting carbs on J motors so they run better choked down? Is that not dictated as a no no in the J motor rule book, BECAUSE the engine was/is not as the factory made it?



first off, richen up the HIGH SPEED jet is not done to prevent damaging the motor. It is done for throttle response out of the turns. Skoontz you seem set on your beliefs about restrictors hurting motors, but they DO NOT. First think about a couple things............racers are running almost twice (most of the time 3 times as much) as much oil that is needed compared to the fishing motor counterparts. You restrict the motor, you also restrict the amount of power it is putting out, thus reducing the amount of lube it needs also. Like I said before, I have never seen or heard of a restricted fishing motor BUILT FROM THE FACTORY being damaged due to the restrictor, nor have I seen it done to a racing motor!!!!!!! You seem set in your beliefs, but have been told by several professional marine mechanics that your beliefs are not true.

and take what Mike Bartlett has said to heart, as his son is probably the fastest J racer out there and they work with the restrictor quite well!!! You can to. Trust me, APBA and the powers that be wil NEVER change the restrictor setup in the stock ranks, as it has been proven to work, at the least expense. It just takes HARD WORK (and alot of it) to win races...........

[Skoontz]

Do you have any exhaust temp readings from guages, before and after a restricter plate has been installed? If so what was the water temp and barometer readings at that time? And, until anyone has actually taken scientific readings and kept records showing me otherwise, I will stand with what I know, professional mechanics or not. The purpose as I metioned prior to all these questions is exploritory. When you choke an intake hole, you lean mixture...lean mixture heats engine parts....Aluminum likes to delaminate when mixtures lean out...Simple as that. If you are running more oil than you really need to just to keep parts cool and lubed, you really have not looked at the issues created by the use of the choke collar, all you have really done is added oil and fattened a jet or two.... You are simply throwing a possible solution at the wall and seeing if it sticks. So, call me set in my ways as you must,

I'm not a professional outboard mechanic for many reasons, the biggest was watching dad work his rear end off for very little pay with respect to his potential... And that said, I've played with enough jetting and intake combinations to know at least the very basics of how it all works and by far do not know every single tidbit needed to optimize any engine.....

Fattening up jetting would also allow for more fuel/power out of the turns as you say....assuming fuel was what would be needed to do that........

So, if fattening a jet adds more fuel to gain more power, then adding a choke collar took fuel away, correct? And that fuel equates to power, and lubrication....So, add more oil....throw another part to the puzzle at the wall and see how that works....And you still have no clue as to how hot the inside is getting regardless of what you did.....Fattening jets serves dual duty by cooling and lubricating the guts from what was removed when the choke collar was thrown into the mix in the first place. Nothing is balanced, just throw this at that, and that at this and see what works......

IIf i had my druthers, there would be a far better system to slow down boats than a choke collar. But, in life I pick my battles wisely, and the people, hence arguement arrising out of trying to bring change for the better really is not worth much of my time in any attempt to change anything. Like it or not, and I DO NOT, I accept the choke collar...My questions have a puropose far greater than making arguement, hell if I wanted to argue, I can do that with my KTDoodle all day if I wanted......

Changing those who are set in THIER ways is not what this thread is intended for.

With respect to mechanics, dad was probably the best OMC wrench in the midwest, maybe the country for all we know, and he often said the difference between a good mechanic and an OK mechanic is that an Ok mechanic typically changes parts until they figure out what is wrong.

A good mechanic finds the cause of the issue and makes it better than he found it.....If and I STRESS IF, people running J motors are simply changing hard parts at various times of the season without seeing what is occurring inside the engine from that disgusting little plate of tin I call the choke collar, they too are simply changing parts, and, have not really looked at how the clock ticks, HENCE THE POSSIBILITIES OF MAKING THIER MOTOR BETTER.....

I will close with the questions I asked in the post I made prior to this one, and I sincerely mean no disrespect TO ANYONE, simply want to know why what and how......

Having a fast or fastest racer is awesome, and there is alot to be learned from a fast racer....And, I'm not sure of my work scheduling yet, but maybe I'll take Mike's offer up and go to a race up in Washington....But, driving well really has nothing to do with the inside of the engine, that's what I'm referring to in this evolved part of the thread.....

Maybe I should retitle it J Engines....Now, if anyone is screwing with jetting, your engine really is not stock anymore is it????? And, if you need to rejet to compensate from the 40% reduced intake capabilities, my point just got proven. The choke collar is bad for the engine unless the engine is/was designed around using it.......

[Mark75H]

Skoontz how is the restrictor any different from just keeping the throttle from fully opening? Really it is no different. Having some kind of throttle opening limiting device would be harder to make and harder to police. You are arguing against decades of known acceptible performance.

There just isn't any "bad for the motor" in it.

[Skoontz]

Sam:

I'm no longer arguing that point. I believe what I believe and I know I'm right... It's not worth my time because it ain't gunna change....Call it I hate the status quo if you will......

I have placed a great deal of thought into the question you posed while I got my daily windshield time...In the
A engine scenario you are opening all the throttle/butterfly, and jetting as it was designed to work. Air, passing through the ventura, being sucked in through the manifold, reeds, in and around the crank and through the ports to fire.

In a choked scenario, the J scenario, all that air passes through the ventura, an hits a block wall with a little weep hole in the middle causing several things to happen, including a severe flow swirl inside the ventura which leans the mixture significantly. Yeah I can hear all the mechanics laughing through the screen on that one...Laugh all they want....Until the tests I'm gunna run are run, no one knows...NO ONE!!!!!If someone has run those tests, I would love to see thier findings.....

I still do not have the answers from those running choke collars...
Assuming they keep records of how their engines run, do they change powerheads with the weather? Do they run a powerhead all season? What wears out regulalry using a choke collar? And how do they get away with changing jets? Do they change rings often? How hot does the engine run????
What is that spot on Mikail Gorbachov's forehead? kidding about the last one....


And I'll add this and I'm happy to report after my findings in a few weeks...
I'm so sure on this I might even bet on it, and, I never bet on anything....Call this the same as my notion to build the ultimate racing outboard...The Skoontzinator....

Exhaust temp readings, barometer readings and water temp readings are going to tell me exactly what I want and need to know and I beleive at this time, the internal temps are going to be much different than the A version of this motor....Call it an obsession....I have a vested interest in finding this out...So call me crazy, I was born this way....

[mercguy]

Sam:

I'm no longer arguing that point. I believe what I believe and I know I'm right... It's not worth my time because it ain't gunna change....Call it I hate the status quo if you will......

I have placed a great deal of thought into the question you posed while I got my daily windshield time...In the
A engine scenario you are opening all the throttle/butterfly, and jetting as it was designed to work. Air, passing through the ventura, being sucked in through the manifold, reeds, in and around the crank and through the ports to fire.

In a choked scenario, the J scenario, all that air passes through the ventura, an hits a block wall with a little weep hole in the middle causing several things to happen, including a severe flow swirl inside the ventura which leans the mixture significantly. Yeah I can hear all the mechanics laughing through the screen on that one...Laugh all they want....Until the tests I'm gunna run are run, no one knows...NO ONE!!!!!If someone has run those tests, I would love to see thier findings.....

I still do not have the answers from those running choke collars...
Assuming they keep records of how their engines run, do they change powerheads with the weather? Do they run a powerhead all season? What wears out regulalry using a choke collar? And how do they get away with changing jets? Do they change rings often? How hot does the engine run????
What is that spot on Mikail Gorbachov's forehead? kidding about the last one....


And I'll add this and I'm happy to report after my findings in a few weeks...
I'm so sure on this I might even bet on it, and, I never bet on anything....Call this the same as my notion to build the ultimate racing outboard...The Skoontzinator....

Exhaust temp readings, barometer readings and water temp readings are going to tell me exactly what I want and need to know and I beleive at this time, the internal temps are going to be much different than the A version of this motor....Call it an obsession....I have a vested interest in finding this out...So call me crazy, I was born this way....



the rest of us are all wrong. Hope you guys have fun this year racing. Hope to see ya maybe at a race up here in Washington, where J is one of the biggest classes........:)

[Ron Hill]

When ERNIE DAWE passed my C-NOD ("C" National One Design) class with a Tohatsu 30, OMC decided to build the 45 SS and 15 A motors. A new 15 was $1,500. I would trade $1,500 worth of props to dealers for a motor. I'd then sell the motors for $1,000 about my costs on the props, but I was building Boat Racing. I bought the last two 15 A's, one Johnson and One Evinrude at the LA Boat Show for $1,000 each. OMC told me then, they would build no more for ever!!!

Darrell Sorensen bought the Johnson. Mickey Schwarzenbach both the Evinrude...I carried two or three new motors, with new motor tags on them, to all the races in our trailer. I sold several motors to people at races. When we moved on, the Loves bought our equipment. Of the 18 motors, I had go through my hands, only one was an Evinrude. When you go to Region 10, today, there are still more Johnsons than Evinrudes...Because most of my Johnsons ended up in Region 10....Just an FYI.

Because Steven Dawe was too young to run "A" and 60 J Mercs were hard to come by, Ernie Dawe and I think, Fred Miller came up with the restrictor idea...I figured, it wouldn't work...But I didn't care, I was racing MOD VP and my wife was racing C-NODS, I didn't plan to have Chad race...

We went to Puddingstone to a race, and during the driver's meeting Chad came down the hill, near the driver's meeting on a skateboard and crashed into a cement wall and cracked a tooth...I was really angry with him for being such a dummy....Then, it hit me like a TON OF BRICKS...

Had Chad been racing, he'd have been at the driver's meeting, not riding some STUPID SKATEBOARD... Chad was still crying when I asked him if he wanted to race boats. He said, "Yes." I bought Charles Job's See Craft runabout that day. We raced at Puddingstone the next month.

I got a new motor in a week or two. We ran the hell out those motors. We'd go to Mexico and run on the Rio Hardy...I loaned Capnzee's kid a motor at the Winternationals and he won on Saturday, his first first and was second to Chad on Sunday.

We never had ANY trouble with the motors, and about half the time, I'd lone Chad's boat to John Castelli to run A Runabout, so Chad's motor was a J and A almost every weekend....

I personally wished we'd just restrict the 302 Yamato for J and A....Rick Montoya has 40-50 motors, for around $2,000 each...such a deal, really, for a motor that was first imported in 1977, and is still running strong (I know the 302 was imported in 1977...but)...

The trouble with J, AXS and A in the Hill Family, about the time the kid can drive pretty well, he grows into a MOOSE!!! Maybe, fourth generation, Marlee Hill will stay J, AXS, and A size for a few years....But her mother is at least six feet tall and Bunker, her dad, was 6'7" before his back surgery....

The RESTRICTOR IS GOOD!!!

Hey KT we'll be testing at Irvine, a week from Tuesday, the Tuesday before Chowchilla, maybe, drag your dad up here for the day...Chad and Broc will be busting in some motors...

ADD; Bunker here: Family, Friends and Fun...Picture is Bakerfield 2007.

Bottom picture: Corey Hill walks Broc to his A Hydro...Where is the REST of the family????

[MissKTdoodle]

When ERNIE DAWE passed my C-NOD ("C" National One Design) class with a Tohatsu 30, OMC decided to build the 45 SS and 15 A motors. A new 15 was $1,500. I would trade $1,500 worth of props to dealers for a motor. I'd then sell the motors for $1,000 about my costs on the props, but I was building Boat Racing. I bought the last two 15 A's, one Johnson and One Evinrude at the LA Boat Show for $1,000 each. OMC told me then, they would build no more for ever!!!

Darrell Sorensen bought the Johnson. Mickey Schwarzenbach both the Evinrude...I carried two or three new motors, with new motor tags on them, to all the races in our trailer. I sold several motors to people at races. When we moved on, the Loves bought our equipment. Of the 18 motors, I had go through my hands, only one was an Evinrude. When you go to Region 10, today, there are still more Johnsons than Evinrudes...Because most of my Johnsons ended up in Region 10....Just an FYI.

Because Steven Dawe was too young to run "A" and 60 J Mercs were hard to come by, Ernie Dawe and I think, Fred Miller came up with the restrictor idea...I figured, it wouldn't work...But I didn't care, I was racing MOD VP and my wife was racing C-NODS, I didn't plan to have Chad race...

We went to Puddingstone to a race, and during the driver's meeting Chad came down the hill, near the driver's meeting on a skateboard and crashed into a cement wall and cracked a tooth...I was really angry with him for being such a dummy....Then, it hit me like a TON OF BRICKS...

Had Chad been racing, he'd have been at the driver's meeting, not riding some STUPID SKATEBOARD... Chad was still crying when I asked him if he wanted to race boats. He said, "Yes." I bought Charles Job's See Craft runabout that day. We raced at Puddingstone the next month.

I got a new motor in a week or two. We ran the hell out those motors. We'd go to Mexico and run on the Rio Hardy...I loaned Capnzee's kid a motor at the Winternationals and he won on Saturday, his first first and was second to Chad on Sunday.

We never had ANY trouble with the motors, and about half the time, I'd lone Chad's boat to John Castelli to run A Runabout, so Chad's motor was a J and A almost every weekend....

I personally wished we'd just restrict the 302 Yamato for J and A....Rick Montoya has 40-50 motors, for around $2,000 each...such a deal, really, for a motor that was first imported in 1977, and is still running strong (I know the 302 was imported in 1977...but)...

The trouble with J, AXS and A in the Hill Family, about the time the kid can drive pretty well, he grows into a MOOSE!!! Maybe, fourth generation, Marlee Hill will stay J, AXS, and A size for a few years....But her mother is at least six feet tall and Bunker, her dad, was 6'7" before his back surgery....

The RESTRICTOR IS GOOD!!!

Hey KT we'll be testing at Irvine, a week from Tuesday, the Tuesday before Chowchilla, maybe, drag your dad up here for the day...Chad and Broc will be busting in some motors...

ADD; Bunker here: Family, Friends and Fun...Picture is Bakerfield 2007.

Bottom picture: Corey Hill walks Broc to his A Hydro...Where is the REST of the family????
Yeah... Broc has a nice Farmer's Tan in that picture... haha

[MissKTdoodle]

Skoontzinator?
- Dad you killed it... :(

[Skoontz]

Ron Count us in for that day....I'll plan for it.... I'm bring brats burbulated in beer.....grilled to perfection on toasted buns....

What you mentioned regasrding the kids outgrowing the class....Reminds me of what the goals for the APBA stock committee have posted....It appears by 2008, they are going to enter the Sidewinder engine with hopes of making the OMC A motors non competitive...At least that's what I read through the lines....No pricing as of yet however....

[MissKTdoodle]

Ron Count us in for that day....I'll plan for it.... I'm bring brats burbulated in beer.....grilled to perfection on toasted buns....

What you mentioned regasrding the kids outgrowing the class....Reminds me of what the goals for the APBA stock committee have posted....It appears by 2008, they are going to enter the Sidewinder engine with hopes of making the OMC A motors non competitive...At least that's what I read through the lines....No pricing as of yet however....
Where did you get this from dad? Burbulated... I'm not even gunna go there

[ricochet112]

We run the factory jet. The motors come apart yearly, more often when records are set. Mine came apart 3 times last year with the same rings going back in, all looked perfect inside. Some run 2 seasons on a set of rings. 3classes=12 heats of racing=about 120 minutes a weekend, average guy runs 10 weekends a year, that's 20 hours of run time a year. For rings to hold up under racing conditions for more than 20 hours is very good.

Checking compression 2-3 times a year lets you know the health of the engine. Since these engines aren't a true racing motor, they are more forgiving than a pure hi-performance racing engine

If your not having engine failures, plugs read great, no scoring on the cylinders or pistons. WHY LOOK FOR A PROBLEM THAT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you spent as much energy working on the engine, set up and every little detail on the boat, than manifesting a problem, you would be getting more seat time and valuable experience on how racing a stock outboard works.

[MissKTdoodle]

We run the factory jet. The motors come apart yearly, more often when records are set. Mine came apart 3 times last year with the same rings going back in, all looked perfect inside. Some run 2 seasons on a set of rings. 3classes=12 heats of racing=about 120 minutes a weekend, average guy runs 10 weekends a year, that's 20 hours of run time a year. For rings to hold up under racing conditions for more than 20 hours is very good.

Checking compression 2-3 times a year lets you know the health of the engine. Since these engines aren't a true racing motor, they are more forgiving than a pure hi-performance racing engine

If your not having engine failures, plugs read great, no scoring on the cylinders or pistons. WHY LOOK FOR A PROBLEM THAT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you spent as much energy working on the engine, set up and every little detail on the boat, than manifesting a problem, you would be getting more seat time and valuable experience on how racing a stock outboard works.
Mike~
Were you at divisionals?

[Skoontz]

If you spent as much energy working on the engine, set up and every little detail on the boat, than manifesting a problem, you would be getting more seat time and valuable experience on how racing a stock outboard works.

Thank you Mike. Well said...But, gear head I must be, I'm starting everywhere first! LOL.. One thing I learned from dad...never be satisfied with performance for any extended length of time.... Thank you for the input, we will conquer this thing yet! Seat time, critical....

I am going to look into a similar scenario that Oroville has with a couple starving mountain towns we have down this way. I love the way the towns spirit and politicians backed the race and I strongly feel if they would allow a similar thing this way, we could solve the runnable water thing at least for a race or two in region 12. That's problem 1, usable allowable water to test.....Let alone race in within driving distance....

Katie, Mike was there, you would remember him in a heartbeat if/when you saw him.

[MissKTdoodle]

KT, sorry you have those feelings about the 'J' Class. Myself, well I started in the alky's and our 'J' Class was called 'M'. What a piece of crap! Hated every minute of it. Couldn't wait to get out of it. My dad wasn't behind me like yours. Instead it was his friends who helped me. I only raced 'M' for a year or less. Then sat out a couple of years until I was old enough to run 'A'. Never admitted it to anyone, but that was the biggest misstake of my racing career. I didn't think it was necessary for me to learn in a slow class. I was lucky, I won every 'A' race I finished! Only problem is that I only finished a few. Spent lots of time out of my boat, learning to swim with a life jacket and helmet. Mostly thrown out of the boat, however there were a few times I went over. Very scary! Never realized how much I didn't learn because I was too selfish to pay my dues. Look at all your GREAT drivers. Ron Hill, Jay Root, Waldman, and the list goes on. Too numerous for me to mention all.

In my later years like middle twenties, I fell in love with an older women. Not much older, but old enough to have a boy that was close to driving age. Early 1970's, her son turned 16. Ah the magical year. She was very well off and wanted the best for her boy. However, she wanted to make him learn to drive in an old Plymouth Valiant, push button automatic. He wanted a Corvette. With a little encouragement from me, he got his wish! A brand new Corvette. One month later, he was dead! Too much car for a beginner. It has be pretty difficult to live with the tought that I really might have been able to prevent it.

Best advice I can give you is to have fun with 'J' Class. Learn from it, and when things go wrong on the race course, just look for your dad on the beach and start laughing. He will be more upset then you are. Besides, it is one of the few times you can laugh at your dad without getting in trouble! Enjoy your life. Everyday is a learning experience. To much to learn and do in life to be upset about boat racing.

How would you like to be racing in your Divisionals and you beining the only legal boat on the course (Plus the only one running) and come out of the last corner get to the 500 foot marker, start thinking in your mind that you are the Divisional Champ, and have your motor quit or conk out and coast to just inches from the finish line? BIG disappointment, but great experience.

Life is too short. Before you know it, you'll have a family of your own, and then you'll say in your mind, why didn't I do that?

Good luck. There are lots of races, but only one life!
Yeah... That soundsgood.
I'm sorry about your lose :(

[Ron Hill]

Tinker Collinge and I had lunch with Ernie Dawe, yesterday. Ernie is building me a new A hydro/J Hydro (Marlee Hill's boat, really). Ernie asked me, did he want me to "RUSH" and get the boat ready for Chowchilla? (July 12, 2007)...

I said, "Ernie, take your time...Broc will be running 45, he doesn't NEED to run A Hydro and Marlee needs to have some time in the boat before she races..."

Tonight, at Broc's High School graduation party, I told him we'd have his A Hydro ready for Bakersfield in October, and Marlee would run it a San Diego...Broc's answer?? Cool...

I told Marlee, the Hills have been racing for a long time, we don't need to rush her on to the course...She seemed happy that we were going to take our time...

ADD:

A freind has a rather large polishing and chrome shop. I didn't know him that well, but he had some machines for sale...and I was in need of some machines. I was in his office looking at the pictures on his wall. They looked about Chad's age pictures, when he raced BMX...back when he and Doug Herbert raced BMX...

I said to my friend, "Hell, looks like my kid when he was about 11..." What's he doing now?...My kid's racing boats, we raced BMX too"..My friend just said, "My son was killed a block from my house, in MY Corvette....He was 16 when he hit a tree...."

The hurt in his eyes still haunts me...

Race with the idea, that there will be another race, next week, that you will want to race in...

[MissKTdoodle]

Tinker Collinge and I had lunch with Ernie Dawe, yesterday. Ernie is building me a new A hydro/J Hydro (Marlee Hill's boat, really). Ernie asked me, did he want me to "RUSH" and get the boat ready for Chowchilla? (July 12, 2007)...

I said, "Ernie, take your time...Broc will be running 45, he doesn't NEED to run A Hydro and Marlee needs to have some time in the boat before she races..."

Tonight, at Broc's High School graduation party, I told him we'd have his A Hydro ready for Bakersfield in October, and Marlee would run it a San Diego...Broc's answer?? Cool...

I told Marlee, the Hills have been racing for a long time, we don't need to rush her on to the course...She seemed happy that we were going to take our time...

ADD:

A freind has a rather large polishing and chrome shop. I didn't know him that well, but he had some machines for sale...and I was in need of some machines. I was in his office looking at the pictures on his wall. They looked about Chad's age pictures, when he raced BMX...back when he and Doug Herbert raced BMX...

I said to my friend, "Hell, looks like my kid when he was about 11..." What's he doing now?...My kid's racing boats, we raced BMX too"..My friend just said, "My son was killed a block from my house, in MY Corvette....He was 16 when he hit a tree...."

The hurt in his eyes still haunts me...

Race with the idea, that there will be another race, next week, that you will want to race in...
Yeah, I was talking to Broc last night...
He said he wasn't sure if he was going to Chowchilla...
And that he has his boat fixed.
He was wondering about my boat... I didn't want to reply but I did.
I'm still not willing to race a J Race. But dad says that we aren't going to Argue... So I guess I gotta try to fix my boat, that im scared of, and that I can't plane with a restrictor... He says he doesn't want to put me in other classes until I start winning in J. He has already seen me run J. haha... So I asked him to give me a Chance. 2 years and I'm off in SST so he better start thinking fast. haha

[ricochet112]

Mike~
Were you at divisionals?

Yes, we were launching right next to you, and pitted next to Dale. The purple and green runabout 111R.

At Cullaby we had 11 JH's and 6 JR's.

[MissKTdoodle]

Yes, we were launching right next to you, and pitted next to Dale. The purple and green runabout 111R.

At Cullaby we had 11 JH's and 6 JR's.
ooo yeah now i remember you

[Ron Hill]

I talked to Amanda and Jim Rich, tonight. I told them Amanda could drive Broc's A Hydro in J...Seems they'll come to Irvine the Tuesday befor Chowchilla to test..with KT Doodle, Greg Foster;s son, Gordy Jennings son and anybody's kid that is between 9 and 40 who wants a ride in a Hydro....

Attention: Scott Schotz...Bring Missy Monroe to Irvine, we'll give her a ride in a hydro.... No, Scott you can't ride, you are too big....

[Skoontz]

Very cool, Ron. I have a meeting from 7:00 until 8:30, after that we are off....`What time will you get there? Second question, where in God's green earth is Irvine Lake???? I was gunna bring the grille because some Illinois brats are gunna be air lifted from this little German joint called the Wurst Kitchen....

[Ron Hill]

You go north from San Diego, when you get near Irvine, you got north on the toll road until Chapman Avenue, about three miles on the toll road, hang a right on Chapman. I think Chapman is called Santiago Canyon Rd when you get off at Chapman...GO up the hill until you see the lake...

Or, go south on the 5 to the 55, go north on the 55 until you come to Chapman...Hang a right on Chapman and go about three to five miles on Chapman and you'll be at Irvine Lake...

Truth is, we talk a fast race, but Chad is teaching summer school, and wwon't get our until 12:45...Broc sleeps til noon....Jim Rich and Amanda won't get in from Bullhead until noonish...

I'm thinking 2 til dark will be the activites...

I'm telling Ernie Dawe to be there by noon and I'll be there about the same time...

So...Bring on the Johnsonville Brats...

[MissKTdoodle]

I talked to Amanda and Jim Rich, tonight. I told them Amanda could drive Broc's A Hydro in J...Seems they'll come to Irvine the Tuesday befor Chowchilla to test..with KT Doodle, Greg Foster;s son, Gordy Jennings son and anybody's kid that is between 9 and 40 who wants a ride in a Hydro....

Attention: Scott Schotz...Bring Missy Monroe to Irvine, we'll give her a ride in a hydro.... No, Scott you can't ride, you are too big....
Wait Wait Ron-
Who's Amanda? and all these other people I've never heard of haha?
Since when did Broc get an A Hydro???
wow I'm lost

[Ron Hill]

Trust me....It has been REAL HOT in the OC this week.

Marlee Hill is going to Havasu that Tuesday.

Ernie Dawe is struggling with 121 degree heat in his garage, he's finishing two hydros and will have the wood for Broc's A Hydro and Marlee's J Hydro, today...AND he's still fixing Steven's 45 from the TEXAS RACE....just a little more paint and jello needed...

Ernie says he'd bring a boat and motor to test....but with Marlee not being there and all..

Chad figures he can't get there until 2:00..But, he doesn't really have anything to test.....except his ability to drive...

Seems, too much going on, with us needing to leave FRIDAY for CHOWCHILLA.....Considering, Chad and Corey Hill will be in Chowchilla/Fresno this weekend....Like tomorrow til Sunday for a FAMILY REUNION...

I think, we'll cancel the "EVENT".....Considering, I still don't have Broc's boat finished...I am taking the gel coat to the glass man today on the way to NEEDLES...

I'll call Jim Rich...

[Skoontz]

Ok, no pratice Tuesday....I'm thinking y props won't be here by then either...Is there practice in Chowchilla, and how many A,AXS,J boats are running there from region 12? Can we get a head count?

I got an E-mail from Jean McKay asking me to call and check in before driving there, which tells me those classes might not have anyone running.

[ePerformanceMarine]

Wait Wait Ron-
Who's Amanda? and all these other people I've never heard of haha?
Since when did Broc get an A Hydro???
wow I'm lost

Well Amanda is my 11 year old daughter, she has been crew chief and chief engine builder on my Nostalgia Jet for the last two years. She is APBA Racing License #74163. She already has plans on setting some new J class records, with the help of the world famous Ron Hill.

[Skoontz]

Were you guys at Parker? When is Amanda going to be ready and racing? It would be a heck of a drive for you, but we (KT and I and a few others from region 11) have been talking about setting up a test weekend at Sale Springs in the future. If it works out as planned, there will be some very experienced drivers and kid drivers there as mentors, and if we play our cards right, we may even be able to get a clock there to practice starts and timing. Are there any parts you are having a hard time finding and what little help Kt and I can offer, please feel free. There are some great J gurus on this thread and site, and we look foward to seeing you somewhere in the near future!

[Ron Hill]

Well, KT was on Saturday's schedule, Sunday, but she made good progress....Too bad she didn't get more "SEAT (Kneeling) time on Saturday...

Here's a Fan Club Sticker...

NOTE TO THE WORLD: KT's dad has been appointed PBR (PERMANENT BRAT COOKER.....) by The Well Oiled Team That IS Chad Hill Racing...

Remember Erwin was PLO????? (Permanent Latrine Orderly) Andy Griffin in No Time for Sargents....

[Skoontz]

Here is a shot of Jared comming by the dock in Chowchilla....

I thought I would add a few fun things to this J class thread. As many of you had read in Propeller, this is the first J driver class in 8 years in region 12 Jared Wallach is Rossdboss's kid, 9 going on 10, great kid and alot of fun to be around. He ran Saturday at Chowchilla, jumped the gun, and in testing Sunday morning, we were changing the plate (J plate) and right about the time were were taxied to the water Jared came to shore, seemed like he backed off right, then we heard this throttle blip, and a second later the crunching of wood....He hit the back of one of the boats, I think the Norcal rig, and put a pretty nasty hole in the bridge between his sponsons.

I sent KT over there, just to see if he was OK, and she told him about the time she flipped, and how that stuff happens... He was worried about his boat, Ross talking to him, and when I finished putting the carb back on I went over and just told him the main thing is he was Ok....

So, Ross and I forogt the guy who was with him patched the boat, caulk, plywood and red duct tape, and the duct tape matched the red in Jared's boat center. He ran two more heats, and did very awesome! Jared, if you see this, I hope KT and I and all the others get to see you running soon. Longbeach is about a month away!

[ePerformanceMarine]

Were you guys at Parker? When is Amanda going to be ready and racing? It would be a heck of a drive for you, but we (KT and I and a few others from region 11) have been talking about setting up a test weekend at Sale Springs in the future. If it works out as planned, there will be some very experienced drivers and kid drivers there as mentors, and if we play our cards right, we may even be able to get a clock there to practice starts and timing. Are there any parts you are having a hard time f