Milling positions

[Skoontz]

After being drawn to al the posts over Arkansas and Jerry Waldman, and as a newbie to this racing thing, I need to ask all of you your opinions and weach may differ and that's Ok...

Reading the Waldman thread, it appears that Mr. Inside as he wwas called liked the outside lane in milling order, then liked to run hard to #1 turn to get the inside buoy...Weather this is correct or not, and you can correct me, can any of you tell me your personal stratagies on where you liked to be at the 15 second mark, and what your goal was at the 0 mark, and did this work to get you to the first turn and inside the first?


Am I making any sense at all???

[Master Oil Racing Team]

You make a lot of sense Skoontz and everyone usually has their own personal strategy, but where you actually end up being sometimes is dictated by having trouble getting your motor started (i.e. Jerry Waldman), being on an unfamiliar course that has something interfering with a good milling area, and also being with a lot of drivers you haven't raced with before. The safest is generally the outside, but that being the case it is fought over the hardest.

This can be a very interesting thread. More to follow, but first a few observations I learned having been a notoriously bad starter for many many years. I finally got a stopwatch I could read. When you're trying to get a good start you need to make some practice runs at milling speeds at different places to get an idea of how much time it is back to the clock. Then I always made several wide open runs from the safety bouy to the starting line. It generally was between three and a half to five seconds. So during the actual start, if you find that there are boats between the safety bouy and starting line that came up early, they will be backing off hoping not to jump and hoping not to kill their engine. If you can hit that safety bouy wide open with just a half second less than 5 seconds then you can blow them down at the start. Of course a little safety margin helps if the clock, camera and bouy aren't all lined up perfectly.

On the stopwatch, now you have digitals with big numbers. What helped me most then was finding a Heur racing stopwatch that had a 10 second sweep. It made it easy to read and you could see the seconds marked off in tenths with ease. That's important when you are trying to start, stop, then read a stop watch with one hand on the throttle and the other counteracting the torque of a 700 or 1100 cc engine.

[Skoontz]

Thank you Wayne. I knew you would have some good input on this. So basically, using your strategy, I need to slow the boat down because a J boat, or even an A boat is nothing like your 1100..But, the methodoligy is still similar.

I'm gunna find me a glass smooth lake nestled between these liberally whacked mountains out here....Then I'm adding sensors, a Barmometer, a tach, and a sweep watch, all to be read through radio transmissions....Then after I take my readings, it's time to make some of dad's magic come alive with the motor....

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I don't get what you mean by slow the boat down Skoontz.:confused: Basically you just need to have an approximate idea how long it takes to get from a few spots in the milling area to the start line, with fine tuning it from the safety bouy.

We ran 5 classes and I just usually reference the 700 because it was my favorite, but we got readings for all our classes. The safety bouy to the start in everything we ran was always under 6 or 7 seconds.

So is the stop watch going to be in the cockpit or on the bank? Looks like you guys are coming along good. Be sure to keep records of what you do. And also be careful of glass smooth.:D

[Tim Chance]

I never liked the inside because you could get trapped in there. There isn't much worse than getting to the first turn first on the inside and having someone sweep in from the outside, slam the door shut and then you end up watching the race dead in the water from inside the corner.

Starting all the way on the outside is tough too. You need a lot of speed to cross the field and get good position in the corner. When there is a bunch of boats it's a long way around the first corner if you are running the outside circle.

The first year I drove the boat pictured in my avatar (350cc Konig on a 13-6 Krier Runabout) I took 11 firsts, 3 seconds, and a 4th. What I usually did was try to start about in the middle and aim for the center pin. If someone beat me into the corner I would usually beat them out of it.

I don't know why but I have always been a good starter. A clock in my head, I guess. I have tried stopwatches but they didn't seem to do much good for me. You have to be at the starting line at a certain time, with a stopwatch I think all you are doing is making and moving a starting line to get to the starting line. And of course, I have tried the one-one thousand, two-one thousand, three-one thousand method; that doesn't work for me. Neither does one-mississippi, two-mississippi.

Next month I will be making my first clock start in 16 years when I start running again with a 250ccR. I wonder if I can still start?? My last run to the first turn with a clock start was in a Tunnel Boat (2.4L Mercury on a 17' Seebold) at the OPC Nationals in Kankakee. I got to the first turn first. As a note: OPC'ers - that crowd hasn't a clue on how to clock start.

[Skoontz]

Wayne:

What I mean't by slow the boat down was what you said....The time it takes an 1100 or even 700 to get to the S/F line will be significantly faster than a J boat with a 1/2" hole stuck in back of the carb. As far as a clock goes, I think for practice if I use a 2 way radio to communicate a count, Katie should get into the habbit of doing it herself. I just found out we can't run 2 way radios in competiton, some rule about parents might be yelling at kids....On Sunday, the radio would have worked to tell Katie to stop the boat....

But, there are numerous other legal ways to communicate...Her starts are way off, the way she planes needs to be worked out...

I would love to hear continuations of each drivers stratagy regarding the milling position because after I conquer the lack of power, it's all driver skill......Since I have not a clue as to what I'm doing, I typically read everything, then put it into a plan and move it forward.

[Skoontz]

Thanks, Tim. Everyone, keep these strategies comming unless there are secret to you!

[Dave_E71]

.....now you have digitals with big numbers......

And a big THANK YOU to the guys who invented those!

You can also pick out a couple other places on the course farther from the starting line so that you can make up time if you need to or go a little deeper before lining up for the start.

Where I want to be on the start, what class am I running? That dictates your strategy, with the stock stuff I drove I used to put it on the pin and leave it there, in the pro stuff, I usually can be found fighting for the outside
:eek:. But as in all battles, the plans go out the window the minute you enter the fray and you usually have to play the hand you're dealt.

Dave

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That's right about the battle plan going out the window Dave. Some while back I posted about butterflies prior to going out on the course, and going away once you feel the breeze of speed. Most of that had to do with worrying about getting trapped in a bad place when the one minute gun fired and not being in the position you want.

Tim, that counting to yourself never worked for me either. I only tried it once. I needed to concentrate on the action rather than count off a steady rate. It will be interesting hearing the different strategies.

The most important thing to me regarding milling Skoontz, is to keep an eye on the other boats. When everyone is circling, counting down the seconds and watching the clock, it is easy to get yourself in a bind. I've seen boats collide with one another, hit a parked yacht or flip to avoid a milling collision.

[Tim Chance]

The most important thing to me regarding milling Skoontz, is to keep an eye on the other boats. When everyone is circling, counting down the seconds and watching the clock, it is easy to get yourself in a bind. I've seen boats collide with one another, hit a parked yacht or flip to avoid a milling collision.

I was there the day in Springfield, Illinois when Ray Hardy pickleforked a parked yacht with his Butts Hydro.

Since we are talking about milling and starting in J Class, I have to go back about 35 years for any personal experience. My 2 boys both ran, 1 of my daughters, 2 Seebold's, Nydahl, Bogosain, Thirlby, Hall, and others. Each and every one was a 2nd or 3rd generation boat racer. They never seemed to have problems milling or starting, I think it is because they had been watching their Dad's do it all their lives and it just came naturally.

Plus J was different back then. Most of us ran 60-J's or KF-5's and I built most of the boats. The boats were miniature versions of then current alky boats. i.e. Sid or Marchetti. 7'-10" long, 28" bottom width, 6" sponson depth, 56-1/2" transom to sponson, 1-1/2" bottom lift, 2" deck lift, 1-1/2" sponson depth. They popped right up on plane and ran 42 mph on a Keller Speedo.

Along the same line my youngest daughter was driving a Pro-J (This is the 50+ mph alcohol burner that Mercury built) at the Nationals for Doc Collins at Depue. She was in first place running down the front straightaway when the boat started to climb. My heart was in my throat, I thought she was blowing over backwards. She never even backed off. She crawled forward and the nose came down, then she scooted back and kept right on going. Afterward I asked how she knew how to do that. She answered: "Dad, I've been going to boat races all my life - I just knew."

[Dave_E71]

The most important thing to me regarding milling Skoontz, is to keep an eye on the other boats. When everyone is circling, counting down the seconds and watching the clock, it is easy to get yourself in a bind. I've seen boats collide with one another, hit a parked yacht or flip to avoid a milling collision.

I've seen the same which is why I like having a countdown timer like this
http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_9990000024479611P?vName=For+the+Home&keyword=timer
or this
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-14/qid=1182351305/ref=sr_1_14/602-8429143-1753405?ie=UTF8&asin=B000I647UA
in the boat set for 3 minutes (or 5) so that I don't have to look around for the clock, instead I can keep an eye out for stuff on the course either moving or stationary and I'm also in favor of those other things which I won't mention for fear of starting a "lively discussion" here.

Wayne, how tall are you?

[David Mason]

Is to not have one. I would say about 90% of the time your strategy gets blown away in each heat because soemone else knows that is a good spot to be in. Especially when you have 12 boats. Smaller fields make it easier to get the lane you want. What I do is try to keep track of about what time might be left before the white flag flies. This means I like to be going towards the clock when the one minute gun if fired. I can then think about where I can go. It is typically a bad idea to go way down and make a flying start with full fields, as a lot of them will wrap the 500 foot buoy and your lane is then taken away and you need to take action to find a lane and your timing is screwed anyways. So, watch the field and do what the majority do that heat, if it is wrap the 500' pin, do it with them, get your lane, and then guage yourself on the run to the clock, in stock you can always pedal, in Pro it is difficult to pedal as your engine will load up or even die. I don't count seconds in my head, I visualize the clock and the position of the hand on the face of the clock. This makes it bad for me to start on digital clocks because I am then counting with those. And the current trend seems to be to go to digital clocks with a lot of clubs, you can almost count on it at Nationals. This is because at local races, stocks hurry the white flag if all the boats are on the water. At Nat's it is a rule that a 3 minute gun is used, meaning no hurry up on the flags. You can now use a timer in the boat and never look at the clock much if you flip the switch when the green flag comes out.

So all told, it iwll be different every time. You just need to know where you want to be and settle on where you can be. Another good thing to do is watch some classes prior to yours that are similar in speed. Count off the seconds it takes them from pin to clock, and base a judgment on this. Make sure you can tell if they are wide open or not and if they pedal or not.

If you have top end speed middle of the pack is not bad at the line. If you are slow it matters not where you are as you are gonna get hosed down. It is more of an learning thing I think. Experience counts big on starts. In stock at most races there is no testing so it is hard to test to pick out any landmarks and how long it takes from there. So when you do go testing it is VERY important you guage punch with every set-up. At my test location I have two locations picked out I use every time I go out. I go up to it about 1/4 throttle and then squeee it wide open, and count. I then record that number on the test sheet. This gives me the expected ET times that are so important. Top end does not win races, ET does. You have to find that balance. My punch guage is a number between 1 - 10. Usually about the average length of turn to start line. I am not the best starter around by a long shot, but it is what I do.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

....Oh...about 2 feet below Ron, Dave!;) :D But actually 5-8. I had a 13'2 Marchetti once I could lay all the way down in with fuel tank and battery in it.:D

There has been many a race won or lost because of the way things played out during milling. Keep the tales coming. Hey Alan Ishii....remember that muddy roostertail you had when milling a little too far out in DePue 72?

[Skoontz]

Tim:

I know we are talking about milling here, but, did the engines of the day have choke collars placed behind the carb? Or were they wide open holes as the manufacturer intended the design to be used? Sponson depth on katies boat for example is somewhere around 4" without measuring. It's also stepped from the bottom break until 18" before the transom where the last step is. We typically run 1 1/2" below bottom with the nose of the bullet kicked up/in a 1/2". The boat measures 8'6" and the air traps have been cut back by the builder, about 18" before transom. It's very fast down the chutes, assuming one can plane it off with the motor all gagged up.

Wayne, the APBA test that is required for all new drivers to take specifically asks about why accidents are caused in the milling position....The correct answer, because drivers are looking at the clock and not the other boats....

I'm realizing each situation is going to be different than the next here, and, where you are at is what you deal with when it occurrs...But, as with my daily/weekly/monthly business planning, if you don't have a plan going in you may just as well take the steering wheel off your boat....

Keep them comming, this is good!

[Tim Chance]

Tim:

I know we are talking about milling here, but, did the engines of the day have choke collars placed behind the carb? Or were they wide open holes as the manufacturer intended the design to be used?

Just like Mercury built 'em. They were little motors 2-cyl. 7-1/2 cubic inch. The photo is my son Terry in 1972 at age nine.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Ron has posted quite a bit about mistakes in the first turn and it is a lot of times the culmination or end point of your choice, forced or otherwise, of lanes. But, at this point, I am considering the first turn as where your sights are aimed and you are at the final stage of milling, looking at the clock, and see your lane clear to the first turn.

It applies to anywhere, but most often this will occur at the Nationals or any race where there is a full field or narrow front straight.

Sometimes a boat will make a slight lane change. Sometimes more than one will. Normally there is no problem because it is not anything drastic and not enough movement to cause a disqualification.

Here's where you can get surprised. If the boats come up early and a boat behind has a good start and flying through an open lane, any movement from the boats in front can be a disaster. They are all looking at the clock. They have been settled in their lanes. They think all that's been decided. No one knows that someone behind is driving through with only a little clearance on each side.

This situation usually occurs at or near the starting line. When the boats are crowding the clock, then figure out they are legal, they turn their attention to that first turn. Lanes change and they may not be aware they have shut off a driver from behind. At this point there may be a lot of scorers and officials mentally noting any gun jumpers and will all the spray may not pick up any violaters just prior to starting.

That's just part of the game. Everyone will usually get some breaks and sometimes will also be caught. But here's the danger. If there is a bunch of the field that came up early and one driver had an open lane with a full head of steam guess what happens when the lane closes.:eek:

This is a good thread for others to speak their peace or make suggestions. Thanks Skoontz for the question. This is to me a key part of racing and why I like clock starts much more than modified Le Mans.

[Skoontz]

I have a future podium stander that really needs to take this in and I'm sure she will be asking you, the best the world has ever seen a few questions....

BTW Wayne, Katie told me all day Saturday and Sunday her stomach was twisted in knots, then she got behind the wheel and it all went away......Sort of what you had described in the Amazing Story thread....

But now one more to toss out there..... What if the sweep hand clock, when you get to practice is a two colored circle say orange turns into black or vice verse...does this change tactics?


What does this add to the mix????????

[Master Oil Racing Team]

No change in tactics at all Skoontz as far as the basics. But as others have said, you can't have a firm strategy. I myself like the idea of a basic plan of attack, but be able to change when you are surprised.

A black and orange does not seem to me to be a very good color choice because black is the absence of light. Both those colors absorb a lot amount of light, and on courses with cloud cover, mountains, trees, etc. they wil not stand out. Our football team colors are black and orange and to me they are not that contrasting. I would say that it could be a problem finding the clock when you are milling.

If you are used to that type of clock it would not be as much of a problem. If you are a newbie and were not used to clocks, or having been used to pie clocks at all, it could be a problem figuring out what was going on until you were too late to get in the position you had hoped for.

When you go far enough into a new region to race, you should take a look at the clock. Most have white backgrounds with a black sweep hand. At least they used to...:). But if you could get a look at what kind of clock they had before the race, where its location is from the water and get some big surrounding landmarks to locate it, that would help.

[geodavid]

Hey Wayne,

You know who I'm talking about...the great Bruce Nicholson. Craig can tell us how much he liked to be on the outside.

[rbengines]

If you are running a stock class it's different from running a Pro class. For one thing you don't have the problem of motors loading up. They are able to pull from a corner from a low RPM. As they have all said the best layed plans change when your coming to the starting pin. In stock racing the fastest way around the coarse is the inside. Yes I know you can't run as fast in the inside., but even so figure the distance farther you have to go just 10 feet out and you be amazed at the distance that is. Use the radius of the corner times itself, times pi, divided by 2, half the circle then add ten feet or more,which is not that far between boats and figure how far you have to travel. You would have to have a fast boat to make up that distance. If you're in a stock race rub those bouys to go for a shorter coarse and faster time. If everyone are rushing the clock, which is the case in many races, lay back and hit it WFO and as Wayne said you will blow them away so lane doesn't matter. Don't watch the other racers because more than likely they are watching you. I use to sucker them in if they were watching me by getting down in the boat and hammer it. Soon as they did the same sit up and watch them go. Most of them won't even notice you are not with them.

[David Mason]

Suck them over is what they call that I think.

Wayne, now-a-days I notice most clocks seem to be orange or yellow with thick black sweeping hands. Personally, I find the orange face to be the easiest to find, as not many people have orange trailers or tarps in the background of the clock. There is a lot of white and a few yellow colors that are always present in the background and it makes it more difficult to pick out the clock when you are milling way up the course.

That said, if you have trouble seeing the clock, mill closer and plan your strategy from that. I think even the best laid plans change each race. Just learn your rigs acceleration routine and it makes a difference. Know how long it is going to take you and you will learn to start better than a lot of people.

[rbengines]

Suck them over is what they call that I think.

Wayne, now-a-days I notice most clocks seem to be orange or yellow with thick black sweeping hands. Personally, I find the orange face to be the easiest to find, as not many people have orange trailers or tarps in the background of the clock. There is a lot of white and a few yellow colors that are always present in the background and it makes it more difficult to pick out the clock when you are milling way up the course.

That said, if you have trouble seeing the clock, mill closer and plan your strategy from that. I think even the best laid plans change each race. Just learn your rigs acceleration routine and it makes a difference. Know how long it is going to take you and you will learn to start better than a lot of people.


Amen to Dave, know where you have to be in relation to the clock to be there on time. If you know that and someone is out front of you then they probably jumped.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That's right Alan. And Charlie Bailey and Louis Williams owned the inside. Would have been interesting to watch if they raced the same classes.:eek: And I rode F runabout with Charlie one time at Alex and I learned quite a bit from that ride having the opportunity to look around.

And Rusty....you reminded me of something. There have been drivers that did like you and intentionally charged the clock and then backed off. It worked many times, suckering drivers over. And then there was another great driver who I forget who now that used to pull this trick. If he came up to soon with the others, he had a strategy. You know how all the drivers are sitting straight up with eyes glued to the clock? He would be in the middle of the pack doing the same thing, then when they got close he would quickly scoot as far back and get down low in racing position like he was taking off. Except he didn't squeeze the throttle. ;) A lot of times drivers around him quickly accelerated, but then at the last second had to back off or either jump the gun. By then he was ready to go and hammered it.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I guess the paints are much better now David. My only experience with black and orange was a pie clock that was a regular orange, not reflective or flourescent. And it was heavy overcast the whole time.

But you are right about white. It makes a good contrasting background, but I remember one year at either DePue or Winona, the pits were full of people wearing white in the vicinity of the clock. I was difficult to pick out when you get out on the course.

Then one year, 1976, I think, the Midwest Power Boat Association spent a lot of money on a really neat looking clock, but it was almost universally condemned. It had a series of light bulbs around the perimeter that turned on as the final seconds counted down. No hand on the face. Those last few seconds were difficult to make out as you could not get an accurate gauge of when the last light would be on. I guess part of it is the way the human mind works, but it was a very hard clock to start with. Then depending on the time of day, the illumination was deceiving.

There were many complaints at the drivers meeting, but there was no alternative but to go with it. The MPBA had good intentions, but it turned out not to be so great.

[rbengines]

I always liked the cannon at the one minute gun. Even if you couldn't hear it, you could feel it. If you were behind the clock you knew it was one minute. The lights were hard to see in bright sun light. Many a story of unsuspecting spectators walking out in front of the cannon. Alot of them funny, but some were serious.

[ferv888ipba]

Many years ago at Morris, Illinois, I was coming up for the start with about 10 others, a couple of us had held off and were coming WFO up to the start as the 7 or 8 others were early. I tried squeezing through a couple of guys, only to have the one on the outside come over 2 lanes and I climbed his roostertail.

The boat climbed, set on its tail, than turned to the left and cartwheeled and threw me out over the front end. I was wearing an open face helmet and a Quincy life jacket with no leg straps(really somewhat the old days). When I hit the water face first, off came the helmet and then realized that my pants were down around my ankles.

I ended up on the water side of the boat and my helmet floated from out behind the boat and the top was turned toward the shoreline. My racing partner, who cannot swim a lick, was up to his neck thinking my head was in helmet, unattached, which it usually is. Needless to say my head was not in the helmet, but now I had to deal with the safety crew who kept wanting to pull me in over the gunrail. I told them to leave me alone I would float in behind the boat to the shore. No, come on we will pull you in. I finally had to tell them in no un-certain terms leave me alone, my pants were ready to fall off my ankles. A good laugh was had by all, as I had to wait until I could get close enough to the beach to reach down and pull the pants up.

Later that night the only filling I have had in my mouth came out as well from getting a pretty good pounding.

Starts, their sometimes the pits!!!!

Ray

[Skoontz]

Ray that's hysterical...Many yeasr ago, high school tio be axact, dad always was given a boat of some sort to use when he worked at Stirn's Marine. So, streaking was in, and, why not streak in front of Pottowattomee Park on a Sunday afternoon when 3,000 people were on hand? So, we did....

A week later, we were pulling a very dear freind whom I've known since 2nd grade, and I told her, make sure you use cut off shorts for bottoms and where whatever for your top...Well, she didn't listen...And, she fell, rigth in front of that park, which is now screwed up with a no wake zone....And, her bottoms pulled off, except, she did not know it...so, she out her skiis back on, yelled "hit it" and we pulled her out....It was not until she got all the way out of the water that she looked at her skiis, and noticed....Her suit had changed color, it kind of looked like her skin....We were dying with laughter...

No good milling position could ever replace that!

[Gstillwill]

Going back a few years at the Nats in Wakefield and some may remember this Bud Pinto was really fast in CSR well he blew over and lost his shorts well the only thing he had on at that point was his Life Jacket and Helmet. He couldnt get in the patrol boat so they towed him in with the boat. At shore he wraped his life jacket around him and up through the pits he went to get some cloths. They had red flaged the heat over another incident so Bud was elegable to run the rerun of the heat. He went on to Win the finals of CSR. If anyone knew Bud and to hear him tell the story of what happened was side splitting. Bud past away last year but I can still hear him tell some great storys, rest in peace my great friend.

[Skoontz]

That's hysterical! In regard to milling....Chowchilla has a pretty cool set up when milling for those who have never been there. A small oval, almost the size of a 1/4 midget track to mill, then the clock is just about where the #4 turns straightens out. KT figured at 12 seconds with a J plate and prop on the engine, at the far bouy, she needed to nail it. She did not jump once all weekend....That worried more than the engine problems I never thougth we would have.....