Canard Hydro

[Damo]

Does any one know the number and state for Bill Blackwell "Blackwell Race Boats" I belive he has made a full scale Canard three point Hydro back in 1986 for the 20SS class and this went quite well. If any one has plans or pics of this type of boat coul'd you give me a tingle (keen to build one)
Cheers
Damien :D

[Jeff Akers]

Blackwell Racing Boats
Bill Blackwell
8655 SW Sorrento Rd
Beaverton, OR 97008
(503)-643-3961


:cool:

[jeff55vDSH]

I remember sometime around 1998, someone showed up at an AOF race in Moline, IL with a canard hydro. The canard was adjustable while racing via power supplied by a cordless drill motor and a switch mounted in the cockpit.
Can anyone remember a few details about that racer and boat?

[Damo]

Was this a Reverse three point Canard Hydro? I have found any info are hard to come buy. I recently had a Reverse Canard R/C hydro 36" long with a 29cc Zenoah motor in it, wild to race, I could keep up with the Outrigger Hydro leaders but my biggest problem is keeping it on the water!
Cheers
Damien :)

PS thanks jeff for the Blackwell details

[MN1]

Here's a photo of a cool boat. I think it was made in Indiana.
Mark Nelson

[Damo]

Cool boat wish we had boats like these racing in OZ. This is what I was looking for but full size and about 12' to suit a 25hp motor
Cheers
Damien :D

[Joe Silvestri 36-S]

The 15-H boat appears to be one of Steve Roskowski's boats. I believe that is his number too. He has built a few like that and would be the best person to ask. I do not have contact info. for him but he does come to this site from time to time.

[JohnsonM50]

The motors an OMC 22ci

[mercguy]

I remember sometime around 1998, someone showed up at an AOF race in Moline, IL with a canard hydro. The canard was adjustable while racing via power supplied by a cordless drill motor and a switch mounted in the cockpit.
Can anyone remember a few details about that racer and boat?

Frank Zorkan has also build a canard style hydro and the last time I knew, it was still on the side of Don Morris's house in Stockton, Ca

[jeff55vDSH]

Was this a Reverse three point Canard Hydro?

Perhaps I was a little vauge. Let me discribe it better:
The hydro I am talking about was very similar to the type hydro we race here in the US. A sponson at each side of the front with a large flat afterplane. The difference was, this hydro had a canard wing mounted at the front, between the two points of the sponsons. The angle of the wing was adjustable with a small electric motor. The idea was to give the driver the ability to adjust the amount of lift the hull generated.
I've seen these type wings on larger inboard engine hydroplanes.
The canard wing I refer to is part "F" in the diagram.

Sorry to say that this is not anything like what you are looking for. The boat design in the photo you provided is completely unknown to me.
Sorry.

[Jeff Akers]

I remember seeing an unlimited hydro ( Miss Circus Circus ) that looked like the model that Damien has shown...can't seem to find a photo of it:confused:

I know they are pretty popular with the R/C guys.

Good luck Damien, hope you find what you are looking for.

[JohnsonM50]

The reverse 3 point mock up above looks like something that might be used for record speed trials.

[Damo]

Thank you guys for all your inpout on this hull
Cheers
Damien :D

[jeff55vDSH]

I remember seeing an unlimited hydro ( Miss Circus Circus ) that looked like the model that Damien has shown...can't seem to find a photo of it:

Good 'ol google image search. I just needed to know the name of the race team. (circus circus)
:)

[David_L6]

Kenny Bayer had a boat similar to the model and Miss Circus Circus in the mid '80's at the AOF Nationals in Runaway Bay, TX. I never saw it run as he didn't race it. I was told that he did test it earlier in the week (before I got there).

Steve Roskowski does have a boat that he built with an adjustable canard. I don't know how many he built with a canard though.

There was also a boat built out on the west coast in the early '80's that had an adjustable canard (Rocket).

[randyrap]

In radio controlled racing of the 80's the canards were fast however, not as fast as the 3 point hydros and they quickly disappeared.

The Circus Circus Unlimited Canard is a favorite with the r/c modellers (1/8th scale) only because it is different. Very few r/c racers have been able to set them up to be winners.

FYI ..... Randy

[Dew1us]

The boat reminds me of an old Disney TV show. Here is a link to the boat..

http://www.disneypix.com/Studios/Mickey/2002a/MA0402-29.htm (http://www.disneypix.com/Studios/Mickey/2002a/MA0402-29.htm)

[smittythewelder]

Damo, about once a decade somebody builds a full-sized raceboat with that configuration, typically for a straightaway record attempt. The usual result is an injured or dead driver. What happens is that as speed increases, the back of the boat gets more and more aerodynamic lift as with any hydroplane, but the bow is bouncing over the waves like a runabout. It's a spear looking for a place to land; eventually the front of the boat finds a hole (racing water is full of holes) to dive into. A friend of mine has home movies of drag racer Chuck Skaggs fatal crash in one of these "backwards-boats," and I was in the pits in Seattle watching that Circus boat do a violent one-eighty in the first part of the front straight, testing, nobody near him, and not going particularly fast. Ron Armstrong got out of the cockpit, understandably shaken, exclaiming, "Holy H#ll!!!" Ron had driven real raceboats very successfully, and was not happy with that machine. That Circus unlimited was designed by a top designer of model raceboats who figured he would show the big boys what they were missing, but somehow that concept never scales up very well. If I remember right, Ron Anderson was helping the APBA set up and operate the timing equipment for Lee Taylor's last jet-boat, which was built with the "backwards" configuration, and which killed him. The English "Crusader" (I think that's the one) was an early '50s jet boat of similar layout, a beautiful thing . . . and a killer.

[rbengines]

Kenny Bayer had a boat similar to the model and Miss Circus Circus in the mid '80's at the AOF Nationals in Runaway Bay, TX. I never saw it run as he didn't race it. I was told that he did test it earlier in the week (before I got there).

Steve Roskowski does have a boat that he built with an adjustable canard. I don't know how many he built with a canard though.

There was also a boat built out on the west coast in the early '80's that had an adjustable canard (Rocket).

David I remember the one Kenny Bayer ran at Runaway Bay. It ran very nose high but wouldn't turn. Kenny Bayer was Clyde Bayer's son maker of the Bayer exhaust stack.

[Damo]

smithythewelder
Thanks for the info and the heads up on the full size Canard design. Due to the lack of info on the canard hydro i desided to build a tunnel insted. The most hp was only going to be 25hp. Baced on what you said it still could get ugly when hitting a hole while racing any way. I guess good in theory but went with the tunnel
Cheers
Damien :D

[Jeff Akers]

When I raced in Olympia Washington last month I had a short talk with Bill about the Canard boat he built and told him you were interested in the design.
In short he said that he was always changing things on it from one test to the next( a lot of work and time) and, if I remember correctly he said he witnesed a full size one blow over and he stoped working on it right after that.:confused:

It hangs in the rafters of his shop now;)

[smittythewelder]

Damo, that little green boat looks pretty cool; I bet it carves nice turns and handles rough water well with that medium-vee bottom. The drawback of the vee bottom is that it takes a lot of power to make it go fast, more than 25hp. When I was a kid, we could water ski (two skis) behind a little motor like that, but the bottoms of our boats were flat or nearly so. Wives didn't like the pounding ride of flat-bottom runabouts, so the deep-vee hull, done in heavy fiberglass, became very popular. But you had to have an engine three times bigger to push it, and you had to buy three times as much fuel. In this day when we need to conserve petroleum, there should be a trend toward hulls with shallow-vee bottoms. (Actually, competition skiers have been using flat-bottoms for years, but because of the wake, not fuel consumption).

Anyway, your problem will be to build a tunnel that works with only 25hp. I imagine that calls for wide sponsons to pick up the load and a wide tunnel to make it fly, while being as light as you can possibly build it. But there are plenty of tunnel boat experts here who can give you good advice and hard numbers.

Maybe a tunnel boat isn't the best for an engine that small (ask the experts); you might investigate an old design called a Hickman "sea-sled." Of course, you could build a hydro, but they are no fun in water that is being used by other pleasure-boats. Also, there were some old designs from when I was a kid (Minimax, MiniMost, Skeeter, etc.) that would work with 25hp, but they weren't very well designed for rough water, either. Somebody could draw up plans for a fast, semi-safe little hull for motors like yours but almost nobody would buy the plans because everybody wants jet-skis now. Too bad, because some of the young guys, like me, who built little speedboats like those went on to become outboard racers, and the kids with jet-skis never do. I think this is one significant factor in the slow decline in the number of outboard racers.

Instead of building another hull for your fishing motor, how about going to an outboard race and see if you get inspired to try that. Help one of the racers as a pit crewman, and he ma let you take his raceboat for a spin . . . .

Anyway, don't forget, the best hull is wasted if you don't spend the cash to get the right prop (plus, you don't want to wreck your motor by over- or under-loading it)

Are you sure the prop you have is getting the most performance from that green boat? Talk to Mr. Hill.

[Ron Hill]

Capnzee was a Captian for TWA and many people say PILOTS are cheap...I really don't know if this is TRUE about ALL PILOTS, because you know, you can ALWAYS TELL A PILOT, YOU JUST CAN'T TELL THEM MUCH!!!

Anyway, the cheapness of all pilots may not be true, but I have first hand knowledge that Capnzee will drink a good bottle of booz...then refill it with Safeway brand...Before you tell me we have a no slam policy here, let me remind you that Capnzee introducted me to my "STARTER" wife...So, I ain't "SLAMMING" him I just telling the truth....

Anyway, I (RON HILL) got us (Capnzee and I) invited to Lee Taylor's cocktail party with free food and drinks...Capnzee was glad to go with me...I'm the one who always get US invited but that is another story...

Marcel Belleville is a pilot and his daughter is a Captain for Northwest. Marcel always said, "It has to look right to work." Well, I used to laugh because Marcel only had one eye and when he built boats he used short pieces of wood and I wasn't sure about him...Years later, you look at Marcel's designs...and realize he was 20 years ahead of the curve...

I saw Jimmy Hauenstein's 8 engined Unlimited in Jim's garage, this spring, the boat is close to 20 years old and the NEW unlimited are just now using Marcel designs...

Anyway, back to the Lee Taylor Cocktail party... Capnzee and I are looking at this "CANARD" boat...aluminum built, rocket powered thing...We have about three FREE DRINKS...Finally OLE Capnzee says, I think this thing would run better backward...I said, "I agree, but I don't think it will matter as this boat is going to kill someone.." Capnzee said, "You're right, let's go get another free drink..." We got our drinks and asked ourselves as we left...Who would design something that looks like it wouldn't work? We both argeed that MARCEL BELLEVILLE had NOT designed it...and whoever designed it had never driver a hydro or a runabout.

Look at the early cab overs and how long their sponsons were. Look how short the sponsons are NOW....

If in doubt about design...Call MARCEL BELLEVILLE, he lives in Florida...and I swear Fred Hauenstein calls him before Mercury Racing sells something new!!!! (OK, Freddy, that was a JOKE...LOL)...

[Damo]

Thanks smithy
Yes the mono is fine but I vacume infuse my boats to get the lighness for good speed out of the turns but this design is over 15yr old. The only reason for a tunnel over a hydro is I was told that a blue printed 25hp Tohatsu wouldnt be strong enough for the hydro to work. I can build anything light and strong but in your opinion would a lydown hydro work with sutch an engine if weight was not an isue? I currently use a Winrace prop and so far I have the best resaults to date, I would love to build a laydown hydro!As this is an open hull class I just want somthing fast!!!
Thanks
Damien :)

[smittythewelder]

Sure, that engine will push a hydro. A lie-down cockpit would make for a longer and heavier boat than you need and will do nothing for you. There should be some plans for plywood boats floating around. An outfit called Clark-Craft was selling plans for an ancient but usable Hal Kelly design called "Wetback." If you can find plans for the Craig-Craft A/B stock hydro, you'll have something more modern. Maybe Darrell Sorenson sells up-to-date small stock hydro plans that you could eventually use for real racing, if you eventually get a real racing engine. With that engine and its big draggy lower unit, using a good prop, I suppose you could get into the low 50mph range, which is faster than you'd go with a tunnel, though a tunnel has other advantages.

But why? You'll outrun ordinary pleasure boats (if you don't stuff the bow into a roller), and fancier boats with big engines will outrun you. Big deal. What do you have against real racing, Damo? Check it out!

Ron Hill, you remember a 48 hydro called the "Dragonfly"? Very strange looking beast, couldn't turn with Piranha, of course, but held the kilo record for a while. I mention it because it looked much like Taylor's last jet boat would have looked if you ran it backwards.

Back to Damo. As I think about it, I don't know enough about your motor to be giving advice here, since there are guys with all of the specific knowledge to help you. Come on guys, help Damo out!!

[Mark Poole]

The canard or "backwards boat" seems to always put up good numbers in wind tunnel tests. That is why there is always someone trying to make one work for a record attempt. There are two designs that work extremely well in RC that don't work at all in lifesize. These are the canard and the outrigger hydroplane. The outrigger hydro is simply a 3 or 4 point hydro that has no "wing" section in the hull. It is simply a narrow fuselage with the front sponsons "outrigged" from the fuselage with tubes, sometimes called "booms". An RC outrigger hydro that does 100 mph is like a lifesize boat doing 800 mph. That ain't gonna happen. An RC outrigger can run 100 because the horsepower to boat ratio is TREMENDOUS. Scale up an RC hydro to lifesize and now you have a prop driven 40ft. hydro with a 20,000 H.P. engine and you need to put that horsepower through the prop. That ain't gonna happen.

Ken Warby is still the man. Builds a boat in his backyard, get a surplus jet engine to put on it, spends some time at the lake and sets a record that has stood for 30 years!

[Damo]

Hi smithy
With the green boat that you see we reach 55mph now and the hull weighs 40.6kg and if need be I can pull another 6kg if needed by replacing the timber with foam etc but as it is it's a handfull to drive in race water now when I get mixed up in the pack. There are bigger classes with racing gear boxes etc but this is one of very few stock motor classes thats very inexpensive and offers close racing, this is the main reason why this class is growing very fast and has my intrest.

In your opinion with the speeds that I'm reaching now with this type of motor would there be any benifit in building a tunnel or hydro? If any one has an opinion I would love to here it
Cheers
Damien :D

[smittythewelder]

Ha, see, I never would have thought you'd get that much speed out of your boat (or that it would be that light!!). Impressive! I have been away from this game far too long for to be offering opinions, except for a few subjects. I should have shut up after I made the comments, which I believe are still valid, on the "backwards boats." Find a link to Sorenson Boats and talk to Darryl, who has been at it since the '60s.

[JohnsonM50]

Ha, see, I never would have thought you'd get that much speed out of your boat (or that it would be that light!!). Impressive! I have been away from this game far too long for to be offering opinions, except for a few subjects. I should have shut up after I made the comments, which I believe are still valid, on the "backwards boats." Find a link to Sorenson Boats and talk to Darryl, who has been at it since the '60s.

I think Damos boat gets lift from the wing shape sides, I otherwise agree that a V needs real hp to go. With that lift and that hes only cutting a thin line thru the water,, I can see how hed be that fast. :)

[JohnsonM50]

Hi smithy
With the green boat that you see we reach 55mph now and the hull weighs 40.6kg and if need be I can pull another 6kg if needed by replacing the timber with foam etc but as it is it's a handfull to drive in race water now when I get mixed up in the pack. There are bigger classes with racing gear boxes etc but this is one of very few stock motor classes thats very inexpensive and offers close racing, this is the main reason why this class is growing very fast and has my intrest.

In your opinion with the speeds that I'm reaching now with this type of motor would there be any benifit in building a tunnel or hydro? If any one has an opinion I would love to here it
Cheers
Damien :D
Damo Ive worked alot on getting an OMC 25 with a stock lower to go, Have used a flat bottom runnabout and tried a C hydro too. I got the hydro to do 52mph and mightve seen a little more if I stuck with it. I got a gearfoot instead. I think your doing real good and will suggest an auxillary water pick up [If allowed]. Then you could raise the motor. :cool:

[Damo]

Thanks guy's!
Yes your right johnson this hull is called a "Wingboat" very narrow at the front but wide at the back with a shallow deadrise and plank designd for lift. In clean water this hull really flies but in messy race water you bounce around alot and it's hard to keep the foot down. Here is some pics of me "Bouncing around" mind you this was rough! Thanks for the opinion guys!
Cheers
Damien :D

[Ron Hill]

Damo, you've got a boat that AMERICANS should "DIE" for...I think your design is more than EXCELLENT...Just not sure I like it a 300 MPH!!!!

What's the difference between a 25 Tohatsu and a 30 Tohatsu???

[Damo]

Hi Ron
The only diferance I feel is just the manufactures badge. The early 90's had a B-block model witch have larger exhaust ports as stock and seem to rev alittle harder etc but the later models the C2 and C3 seem to run just as hard. The B block witch is badged a 30 still measures within the 25hp specs anyway so in our class this is still leagal.
Cheers
Damien :)

[Ron Hill]

I never knew about the port size. and toi be hones, we never found a difference...maybe the later motors.....We use to buy the 25 becasue they were cheaper, but we thought they were the same as a 30 except the 30 had the timing advanced...which we advanced it anyway...a ton!!!

We did find, that one year, like 1986, the 30 HP had about .020 off the heads stock...out of the box...

God those Tohatsu's were good motors...My "FEMALE" drivers would sometime rev the living CRAP out of them and drop them in gear.....At one time I had four completed30 Tohatsu V Hull, racing, WE NEVER BLEW GEARCASE...No matter how hard they were thrown in gear!!!

AS Carl Meyers would say, "Them motors are HELL FOR STOUT."

[Damo]

Your'e not wrong a good 2 or 3yr old motor will set you back about $1200.00US. Parts are cheap and yes very ro-bust I have been racing mine for three seasons now and hasn't missed a beat
Cheers
Damien :D

[smittythewelder]

Would any of you want to race a hydro in the kind of water you see in Damo's photos?

Ron, you missed my reference on the previous page to the 48, "Dragonfly." I think the owner's name was Steve. A unique boat; anyone know if it's still around?

[Jay and Christine Root]

"Dragon Fly" designer, builder, and driver was Steve Ball. Boat was last seen in the San Diego Sports Hall of Fame, Balaboa Park.