Safety First - Kneeldown or Laydown

[randyrap]

Was wondering what is a safer ride in a D hydro. :confused: A kneeldown or a laydown. Any opinions?

Thanks .......... Randy

[cnunez55]

I would have to say that it depends on the situation. In the event of a flip I think it would be easier to push yourself away from the boat if you are on your knees. A laydown setup has to be more precise on your kickout because you dont move your body to adjust for bow lift. If your bumping boats in the corner alot less of your body is exposed in a laydown. To sum it up neither one was designed for safty, just a lower CG.

Thats my oppinion but I never drove d hydro. I drove every 2 cylinder and then moved to formula E and then to sst120 in 97. I did go back in 2000 and win the aof nat. though.

Curtis

[Mark75H]

I would say if you have to ask ... a B hydro would be safer

In a D at speed things happen so fast that one style or another isn't going to make any safety difference

[randyrap]

I'm sure a ''J'' is EVEN safer. :D .

Being 6'4'' and 260 lbs. I would have to run a DSH. This class appears to be popular up here in Ontario, Canada.

Any suggestions as to what hull would be best for a big guy like myself?

Thanks ........ Randy

[cnunez55]

I would have to say a composit boat for the weight and a wider bottom. You should look into 4 blades for *** end lift but the widder bottom should do the same thing.

[randyrap]

I would have to say a composit boat for the weight and a wider bottom. You should look into 4 blades for *** end lift but the widder bottom should do the same thing.

I thought DSH rules only allow 3 blade props?

[Mark75H]

There are a lot of "big" guys who are very competitive in C.

If you can get down to the other side of the St Lawrence to Lock Haven, PA the first weekend in September, you will see some pretty big guys running very fast in C

[cnunez55]

I thought DSH rules only allow 3 blade props?

I am not up to date with the new rules but I think it is sad to know that they put a limit on blades and proably due to cost. As if that is a factor in racing. Whats the differance 100 dollars. lol.

[Ron Hill]

I'm not really the RACE PROPELLER Man that DeWald is...but I have stayed out of this. But watching some fo the PRO HYDROS and RUNABOUTS at DePue and realizing they are running four and five blades and going faster than a man should... I ask myself, "Self,who benefits from a rule that requires three blades??'

I counted 29 propellers for our 45 SS boats, today, that we need to test...figure $300 each and round to 30...That is the cost of a new boat in props...truth is, will one more blade or two more blades run the cost up? Maybe not, as a three blade breaks much more often than a four or five blade...

[David Weaver]

At high speed in a hydro, most 3-blades try to lift the nose too much for my comfort. So, in a laydown I prefer a 4 blade or 5 blade (you cannot move around much). IN a kneeler, you can move more weight forward and manage things.

I raced kneelers for years, but have driven a laydown for the past 4 years. The laydown is more comfortable to drive and I make faster lap times. The draw backs:

1) You lose side to side visisibility to an extent. So, I drive more carefully when it comes to lane changes.

2) It is harder to move weight forward if you start to rise up (nose first), but it is not impossible.

3) Balance of the boat is important. In my opinion tall, heavier engies do not appear to work well on most laydowns, unless the boat has been lengthened over the class norn. Fishtailing out of a turn is a comon site.

4) IN a laydown, you must focus a bit more on the horizon. The nose can sneakup on you and you will find yourself running nose-up before you are aware of it. MY laydown is extremely comfortable at speed and I must remind myself to focus, focus. focus.


If you are racing at competitively, I would rather be in a more powerful boat at a faster speed than in a boat without the power that has to run on the ragged edge. CSH / OSY400 is a great class. In myopinion, it takes more skill to drive one and keep it one the water than to motor around in a 250cc hydro at 90 mph. DSH is not a foregiving class when it comes to driver mistakes. Whatever route you go, take your time, get in lot's of laps to develop feel and pay attention at all times.

[Brian10sCSH]

As posted before neither a laydown or kneeler is safer. Both have certain advantages and certain drawbacks. But here is one universal truth, you want to be in the same type of boat as those you race against. While you can run a kneeldown vs all laydowns or vise versa, each boat will turn a little different and therefore there are "challenges" when you are the odd ball. Just something to think about.

As for boat makes, since you are up in Canada, get in touch with Dave Scott. He seems to be the D guy up there and also builds some D boats based on MJR designs, which are some of the best driving boats around. If you are thinking of building your own - I suggest a MJR, he supplies fulls size cut out plans that are very easy to follow and get very good results. Also, I know many builders are putting composite materials in the cockpit sides of their boats in a effort to increase driver safety. This, in my opinion, is something that I would recomend. Racing is a hobby. Everybody has to get up on Monday and go to their job. A little extra money spent to increase that likelyhood is money well spent.

As for props - the Stock Commission determined that 3 blades are all you can run, so there is not much anyone can do about it. The Stocks are 3, Mods are 4 and Pros are 5. Just the way it is - for now.

Hope that helps.

[randyrap]

Brian and David. Great advice!!!

So ... do you think it is better to start off in a CSH rather than a DSH? Being a larger guy I still want to be competative. Is there a big difference between the classes as far as cost?

Thanks ......... Randy

[Brian10sCSH]

Either one would work as you get started. 260 lbs most likely would be heavy in CSH unless you get a really light boat. In all stock & Mod classes it is the combined weight of boat, motor, driver and gear that is important, not just the driver. So a light driver can run a heavy class with a big boat and additional weight and a heavy driver can run a light class with a light boat.

At 260 and in Ontario, where you will be running, D most likely would be the best fit. They seem to have a good field of them at most races.

One thing, don't count on being competitive right out of the blocks. It usually takes a season or 2 to get enough seat time to really start driving the boat to its full potential. Everyone takes their lumps starting out but each of those lumps is worth it in the long run.

My best advise is to go to a couple of races close to you and see what there is to see. Hope this helps and good luck.

[David Mason]

You can buy a new Tohatsu or Merc from Dave Scott.

Get a light boat, 100 pounds or so. I would reccomend a kneeler to begin with. You can move around and learn how the boat is supposed to feel, and as some mentioned, it is easier to correct when something is amiss. If you choose laying down believe me you, if the bow comes up, you will find a way to climb forward, your instincts will ensure that. I almost blew over in Constantine in the 350CCH milling from a rooster tail, I found myself over the dash before I realized I was moving forward.

I think you will find a lot more sucucess sooner in D class than C. Big guys who run C spent a lot of time getting the rig competitive. It means special props and boats to accomodate.


You have a lot of D people up there that I am sure would be willing to pitch in and point you the right way. However I say that with hesitation, since you decided to try boat racing, you already are heading the right way !

[randyrap]

Thanks David.
I'm not completely ''new'' to racing. I grew up watching my dad and uncle race alky Konigs in the 60's and 70's. In the late 70's we built a Hedlund and put a new Merc 25ss on it. I had a few years of testing time waiting to turn 16. By the time 16 came I was too big to race in the 25ss class and sports/cars/and girls took over as priorities.:p . Last week Brian Hendrick was nice enough to let me take his beautiful DCH out for a few laps. It was over 25 years since I was in a hydro and now I have the ''bug'' again. I plan to hang around the races helping out and who knows ... I might pick up a DSH if a good deal comes along.
Randy Rapedius

[David Mason]

I would even go so far as to reccomend you trying FEH. Those are very inexpensive to build compared to DSH if you have some motor experience. They have lots of power for big guys, and there are usually a few at the races up there. It is not hard to be competitive at your weight in FEH. Pick up a lightweight used 250/350CCH boat and get an engine. You might be pleased with the low end torq and the top speeds reach into the 90's.

Welcome back, it is the one bug that you don't mind getting bit by.

[David Weaver]

I would even go so far as to reccomend you trying FEH. Those are very inexpensive to build compared to DSH if you have some motor experience. They have lots of power for big guys, and there are usually a few at the races up there. It is not hard to be competitive at your weight in FEH. Pick up a lightweight used 250/350CCH boat and get an engine. You might be pleased with the low end torq and the top speeds reach into the 90's.

Welcome back, it is the one bug that you don't mind getting bit by.

If you do not mind travelling, maintain the family tradition and buy an ALKY!! The new 350 2-bangers and Dave's 3-cylinder 350 have plenty of power.

[Tim Chance]

But here is one universal truth, you want to be in the same type of boat as those you race against.

My thoughts exactly. I've run Stock, Mod, OPC and Pro. Runabouts, Hydros and Tunnels. In a Pro Runabout, I kneel; a Pro Hydro, laydown. I have no interest in a C or D Stock or Mod but because of the slower speed, lower rpm and the high center of gravity of the motor it seems that kneeling makes more sense as a lot of "body English" is used in driving them.

[STU Racing]

Randy,
we met last week-end (Brian's driver) at Beaver Lake and despite my personal preference I have mixed advice like the rest who have posted.
You could get into a light CSH, but it would have to be a kneeldown. I run one of the only laydown CSH's in North America and I am pushing the limit for driver weight and height for a laydown to work at 6' and almost 200lbs. CSH is a very competitive class in the northeast, not being the best class to start in but many do start in this class and learn quickly.
DSH would be a great class to keep the option you are exploring open. You can run a kneeler or laydown. A good motor in DSH will run you almost double that of a Yamato for CSH. But you are also lucky in living up here in that you have the option of running DCH. You could buy a regular sized DSH boat and run an old Merc on it in DCH to learn. The extra size of the DSH boat may be a lot more forgiving than a DCH boat... and once you gain the experience you can either sell the boat to run a smaller boat in DCH and be more competitive or sell the motor and get a Tohatsu or Merc 44xs to run DSH.
Either way I would recommend that starting off you should race a kneeler and maybe later on go to laying down. I started in a kneeler and then went to the laydown in 20ssh and CSH to improve my lap times but driving a laydown is much different than driving a kneeler and I think a laydown may have the potential to put you in a bad situation between the bow lifting and cornering in the inside lanes as a rookie. I've spun out a couple of times trying to fit into an inside lane with too much speed, but that is because I feel the laydown is much more forgiving in the corners compared to a kneeler. So hopefully you can make it to Rideau Ferry and this can be discussed more with myself and others.

[Dave_E71]

.....So a light driver can run a heavy class with a big boat and additional weight ......
NO, NO, NO Brian, Dad is not going to run CSH! My back is only so-so after the surgery and I'm not lifting that thing with the amount of lead he would need to make weight. Besides, he's my 125 driver now (no weights in PRO :D ). You need to buy the 350 Rossi I'm selling.....

To the original question, I haven't driven a D (at 5'8" and 142 lbs. the boat would sink with the lead we would have to add to make weight!) so I don't know the weight distribution with that engine, but I have run J (merc), A (old merc & OMC), B (20cu in HotRod), 15ss (HotRod), C (merc and Yamato), 125, 250 & 350 in kneeldown boats and 125, 250, 350 & 500 in laydowns. I've also fallen out of most of them at one time or another..... What I've found is that in the lower horsepower classes, which favor kneeling, where you need to run them on the edge to get that last little bit out of them you also need the ability to move a great deal quickly in the boat to keep them trimmed . In the higher horsepower classes, which in my opinion favor laying down, the boats (cockpits) are longer so that you can place the driver where you need to rather than where they end up with their feet on the transom, the (as least my) setup is more conservative and you're not on the hairy edge all the time (did I mention I've fallen out of a boat or two?), they have the power to fly the boat without a lot of input from the driver except squeeze and aim.
The biggest performance difference between the two is in the corner, in the laydown you just clinch up and turn in wide open, drop the pipes at the middle pin and start standing on them again about halfway to the exit pin.....it's so easy, even a boatracer can do it :eek:

Dave

[Brian10sCSH]

NO, NO, NO Brian, Dad is not going to run CSH! My back is only so-so after the surgery and I'm not lifting that thing with the amount of lead he would need to make weight. Besides, he's my 125 driver now (no weights in PRO :D ). You need to buy the 350 Rossi I'm selling.....
Dave

Actually, I figured we could strap your skinny butt in it and I could spend 3 laps hosing you down.:D As for the Rossi - just wait until my Mom hears what you are tempting me with. You think your back is bad now:eek:

See you at the Lock!

[f8andbethere]

First of all racing is not a safe activity.
Second, if you really want the ultimate in safety then go with a capsule. While a capsule will give you a few engineering challenges from a rotational CG perspective, these are relatively easy to overcome.
From a building perspective, you will need to use compositves like aluminum or fiberglass honeycomb and this give great floatation and is very strong.
But a capsule -- particularly for the DSH class is definitely the way to go. No more hanging on for dear life -- you can really go a drive the boat hard into the corners.
And if there is a shunt, the boat takes the brunt of the punishment and you can go to work on Monday.
f/8

[randyrap]

Is anyone running a DSH capsule?

[STU Racing]

I haven't heard of any DSH capsules because they aren't mandatory for classes that run under 100mph. Capsules also bring a ton of expense to the sport and are generally incorporated into boats for the more "experienced" driver that wants to spend the money to go fast.

[Tim Chance]

I don't think a D Stock has enough horsepower to accommodate the additional weight and bulk of a capsule.

[f8andbethere]

I haven't heard of any DSH capsules because they aren't mandatory for classes that run under 100mph. Capsules also bring a ton of expense to the sport and are generally incorporated into boats for the more "experienced" driver that wants to spend the money to go fast.

This is total nonsense and is the reaction of someone who is ignorant to the facts of life; does a capsule increase the cost of a raceboat. The answer is yes. But you have to look at the cost in terms of the benefit received; look at what the cost of a one night in the hospital is.

Additionally, if capsules became common, then the cost would go down as those who are building capsules could standardize building techniques, etc.

While capsules are not required and the APBA in its myopic way has not really been at the forefront of safety with this respect (and in fact found as many reasons not to have a capsule when they were coming into use in the unlimiteds, for example), capsules represent the next step of evolution within the sport.

One only has to look at the aircraft industry to understand what capsules will do for the sport. In the early years of flying no one was belted into an airplane and everyone was out in the open with the wind in their faces. There is not a modern airplane today (with a few experimental exceptions) where the pilot is not strapped into the airplane and enclosed.

The sport will not be ready for capsules and will find every reason that capsules will not work until someone goes out kicks the living **** out of the competition with a capsule boat.

If you want a capsult D hydro there are folks who can build the boat -- Leigh Furnal has experience, Ed Karelsen (who is retired but could give you information on dimensions and set-up) and others I am sure.

f/8

[f8andbethere]

I don't think a D Stock has enough horsepower to accommodate the additional weight and bulk of a capsule.

Well Mr. Chance when was the last time that you were in a DSH? Strange that 45SS in the tunnel boats -- which is similar in horsepower -- has enough horsepower for a capsule.

Additionally, if you would have read the original post you have seen that to build a DSH for a capsule you would have to use modern composite techniques to build a boat that is stronger than wood and light enough for a 200-plus pounder to make weight.

It would be nice if you would stop finding ways not to do something and look at ways to make improvement of the sport possible.

f/8

[mercguy]

This is total nonsense and is the reaction of someone who is ignorant to the facts of life; does a capsule increase the cost of a raceboat. The answer is yes. But you have to look at the cost in terms of the benefit received; look at what the cost of a one night in the hospital is.

Additionally, if capsules became common, then the cost would go down as those who are building capsules could standardize building techniques, etc.

While capsules are not required and the APBA in its myopic way has not really been at the forefront of safety with this respect (and in fact found as many reasons not to have a capsule when they were coming into use in the unlimiteds, for example), capsules represent the next step of evolution within the sport.

One only has to look at the aircraft industry to understand what capsules will do for the sport. In the early years of flying no one was belted into an airplane and everyone was out in the open with the wind in their faces. There is not a modern airplane today (with a few experimental exceptions) where the pilot is not strapped into the airplane and enclosed.

The sport will not be ready for capsules and will find every reason that capsules will not work until someone goes out kicks the living **** out of the competition with a capsule boat.

If you want a capsult D hydro there are folks who can build the boat -- Leigh Furnal has experience, Ed Karelsen (who is retired but could give you information on dimensions and set-up) and others I am sure.

f/8

I hear there is a DSH capsule in the "works" that Ed Karelson has been wanting to build...............stay tuned. As to saying it won't work for D, then that is horsecrap, cause it will, with a lighter driver.......and a Merc 44XS or Tohatsu D has the "balls' to power one ;)

[mercguy]

I haven't heard of any DSH capsules because they aren't mandatory for classes that run under 100mph. Capsules also bring a ton of expense to the sport and are generally incorporated into boats for the more "experienced" driver that wants to spend the money to go fast.


what does having a capsule have to do with a "more experienced" driver or wanting to go fast and spending money to do it? If it was all about speed, then ALL the inboard boats would have capsules.....as they go alot faster than our "little race boats"........

bottom line, capsules save lives.......

an ALL NEW DSH (boat, motor, hardware, etc) can cost more than a complete SST45.......trust me!;)

[f8andbethere]

Ain't necessary, F8, sounds like wine bottling Nit to me.
RichardKCMo

So what is necessary?

There are some who say helmets are not necessary (see Bob Nordskog). There are others who say life jackets are not necessary. I have pictures of folks racing either with out a helmets or without a life jacket and sometimes (perhaps it was just testing) with neither.

So why is it that folks like yourself want to kill an idea before it even gets off the drawing boards. What are you scared of anyway?

This is the same nonsense that the unlimiteds went through when they switched to capsules; the tunnel boat folks were more accepting because they new that they had to do something to stop the carnage but even then were a myriad of myopic fools who said that capsules were bad for the sport.

Are you one of those folks?

f/8

[Mark75H]

Rusty, if it is the future of competitive and safe racing ... build a capsule DSH and race it to prove the naysayers wrong. Otherwise you are ringing like a cracked bell.

[STU Racing]

Mr F/8,
I do not like being called ignorant when I probably have more experienced with capsules than you. Have you ever helped lay one up? Well I have. I agree that they are the safest addition to a boat, however you would price stock outboard out the roof. It's not just the additional cost of the boats it is also the additional cost of putting on a race.
With capsule boats, you need safety teams that are trained at recovering a driver from an over-turned boat. Most of these teams expect to be paid for their time and services, and have their expenses paid for. Just this will add at least $1000 per week-end in expenses.
Now a ton of racers are mad that they may have to reinforce their current open cockpits. You will never see stock outboard use capsules because of the simple extra expenses for a boat and running a race.

[Tim Chance]

Well Mr. Chance when was the last time that you were in a DSH?

f/8

Rusty - I have never been in a DSH. I've run B Stock, B,C and SE Mod, all classes of Pro and SST-140 in OPC. And I'll say it again, I don't think a D Stock has enough horsepower for a capsule. I also don't think my 250 Pro motor has enough horsepower for a capsule. If you did run a capsule in one of these "non-capsule" classes I think the handling characteristics would be so different that It would not be competitive. As an example, Rich Krier gave up on his capsule 500 Pro runabout because it wasn't competitive with the other non-capsule boats.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti capsule. I felt safer in my Tunnel in a capsule than I did 35-40 mph slower in a hydro. I just don't think capsules are applicable for all classes of outboard racing.

[mercguy]

Mr F/8,
I do not like being called ignorant when I probably have more experienced with capsules than you. Have you ever helped lay one up? Well I have. I agree that they are the safest addition to a boat, however you would price stock outboard out the roof. It's not just the additional cost of the boats it is also the additional cost of putting on a race.
With capsule boats, you need safety teams that are trained at recovering a driver from an over-turned boat. Most of these teams expect to be paid for their time and services, and have their expenses paid for. Just this will add at least $1000 per week-end in expenses.
Now a ton of racers are mad that they may have to reinforce their current open cockpits. You will never see stock outboard use capsules because of the simple extra expenses for a boat and running a race.

never say never..............there will be a stock outboard capsule boat produced within the next year, I am willing to bet on being built. ;) ;) ;) ;)

[STU Racing]

Daren,
It may be built but I doubt it will be raced. I'm unsure of what exactly goes on at most west coast races but like i said before, you'd need a certified rescue crew if one capsule boat was to race. Either DSH would have to be run at inboard, OPC, or the few who run capsules in DSH would have to eat up the extra expense. It doesn't make sense for this entry level division to take on such great costs.

[mercguy]

Daren,
It may be built but I doubt it will be raced. I'm unsure of what exactly goes on at most west coast races but like i said before, you'd need a certified rescue crew if one capsule boat was to race. Either DSH would have to be run at inboard, OPC, or the few who run capsules in DSH would have to eat up the extra expense. It doesn't make sense for this entry level division to take on such great costs.


oh it will be raced! Will it work.....who knows, but am sure the builder (who is one of the all time greats) will do his best. We here in Reg10 have "in my eyes" the best rescue crew in the country.....Oregon Race Rescue and they are a certified crew. All the Reg10/11/12 races have the ability for a "capsule trained" rescue crew, as there are a TON of inboard and OPC races out here.

[David Mason]

That you have not seen them on Mod and Stock is the drivers don't want them ? Is that Myopic ? I am sure if the majority of stock outboard drivers wanted to mandate capsules it would be done. The insurance savings would most likley be huge. However, as I said, I highly doubt you can convince the masses that a capsule is the way to go for D or any other stock class.

Perhaps that is the main reason it would not go over well to mandate it, Most drivers don't want it.

At any rate I truly don't believe mandating capsules would grow membership in stock outboard.

[mercguy]

That you have not seen them on Mod and Stock is the drivers don't want them ? Is that Myopic ? I am sure if the majority of stock outboard drivers wanted to mandate capsules it would be done. The insurance savings would most likley be huge. However, as I said, I highly doubt you can convince the masses that a capsule is the way to go for D or any other stock class.

Perhaps that is the main reason it would not go over well to mandate it, Most drivers don't want it.

At any rate I truly don't believe mandating capsules would grow membership in stock outboard.

Dave, you are absolutely right!!! It probably would kill SO. It is just an option for the driver. Hey, did you get my PM from Hydroracer??

PS: I think a capsuled DSH might look cool! And, you would get to sit down!:D :D

[Scott23]

The only way it would work is if the capsule D started winning races. Then I bet you alot of people would start going that route. I think it would be cool too!!

[STU Racing]

Well Daren, the west coast seems to be ready for capsules. I would like to retract my previous statement about them not racing.
But as I said before, they will have a hard time becoming popular. I never said that they would not work, because I am a firm believer that if you work at it hard enough and long enough you will be able to make it work. Most boat builders have tried to get me to convert my 20ssh and CSH boats to kneeldowns but I have managed to win with the laydowns after a couple years of hard work. But stock outboard is all about being able to not spend tons of money and race. Reinforced cockpit sides and flak in our jackets has roused enough opinions on hydroracer to show mandating capsules will never be tolerated by S/O members.
As for making a capsule work in a boat, if you need an opinion on how to make it work I might be able to help you out through talks with Bert Henderson of Henderson Racing Inboards.

[mercguy]

The only way it would work is if the capsule D started winning races. Then I bet you alot of people would start going that route. I think it would be cool too!!

oh, you want it to win races too Scott????:D :D I can imagine milling around in my open cockpit D and here comes the capsule D hauling *** past me, ready to lay the hammer down in the turns, like the 45's! :eek:

[mercguy]

Well Daren, the west coast seems to be ready for capsules. I would like to retract my previous statement about them not racing.
But as I said before, they will have a hard time becoming popular. I never said that they would not work, because I am a firm believer that if you work at it hard enough and long enough you will be able to make it work. Most boat builders have tried to get me to convert my 20ssh and CSH boats to kneeldowns but I have managed to win with the laydowns after a couple years of hard work. But stock outboard is all about being able to not spend tons of money and race. Reinforced cockpit sides and flak in our jackets has roused enough opinions on hydroracer to show mandating capsules will never be tolerated by S/O members.
As for making a capsule work in a boat, if you need an opinion on how to make it work I might be able to help you out through talks with Bert Henderson of Henderson Racing Inboards.

hell no, I would not be the builder, that is not my cup of tea, but the "prospective builder" has built pretty much every type of race boat their is, from A hydro's to Unlimited's, so think he has an idea of how to do it......;)

Spenser, I to race laydown hydros and do just fine with them. Probably had one of the first laydown 20 boats in the country, but is now my CMH........

[deanwilson]

Some other builders who I'm certain can figure out a DSH capsule are Gary Pugh or Marc Johnson since they are already building successful capsule hydros. Especially if a lighter lay-up schedule can be determined due to slower speeds and smaller boat size/overall weight. I'm no engineer but the 500 lb boat going 90mph shouldn't need to be the same as the 1000 lb boat going 110 mph.

I think it would be great to see, if there's enough HP in the Tohotsu. I suspect there is but really have no idea. But, I guarantee that if you get one dialed-in, it will be quicker around the course because you can drive harder/deeper through the corners when you're strapped-in vs hanging-on.

Also, there will be no more problems or complaints about the expense of divers for 45ss if you need 'em for DSH as well.

Dean

[mercguy]

Some other builders who I'm certain can figure out a DSH capsule are Gary Pugh or Marc Johnson since they are already building successful capsule hydros. Especially if a lighter lay-up schedule can be determined due to slower speeds and smaller boat size/overall weight. I'm no engineer but the 500 lb boat going 90mph shouldn't need to be the same as the 1000 lb boat going 110 mph.

I think it would be great to see, if there's enough HP in the Tohotsu. I suspect there is but really have no idea. But, I guarantee that if you get one dialed-in, it will be quicker around the course because you can drive harder/deeper through the corners when you're strapped-in vs hanging-on.

Also, there will be no more problems or complaints about the expense of divers for 45ss if you need 'em for DSH as well.

Dean

Dean, I believe you are right on the money here! I do not think the question of the Tohatsu having enough power (or even the Merc 44XS) would be much of an issue, since they are both close to 44 cubes, like the OMC 45 motor and the DSH weight is close to 200lbs lighter than a 45......

[David Weaver]

Some other builders who I'm certain can figure out a DSH capsule are Gary Pugh or Marc Johnson since they are already building successful capsule hydros. Especially if a lighter lay-up schedule can be determined due to slower speeds and smaller boat size/overall weight. I'm no engineer but the 500 lb boat going 90mph shouldn't need to be the same as the 1000 lb boat going 110 mph.
Dean

Someone in Florida attempted a DSH capsule (I believe Apel). I do not recall it working well against open boats, but if they had all been capsules....I believe that boat later re-emerged as a small 700cc hydro, briefly.

[deanwilson]

As much as I respect Jim and his work, I've run a few of his boats, he was probably trying to overcome an impossible weight handicap. At that time there was no allowance for the lighter/stronger carbon fiber type lay-ups available today. Also, balancing the boat and adjusting the lift will take more than just one try I'm sure. Even then, some type of adjustable trim is probably necessary too.

Having said all that...I get your point that the boat ran ok just not competitive w/lighter open boats. The least you'd have to do is increase the min weights and I don't think there is enough interest or motivation for even that. I'd be surprised anyways. I don't know if it's really necessary either but it would be cool to see.