Speedliner D restoration

[mark30h]

I've begun restoration on my 56 speedliner d zephyr runabout. I have a question for you restorers on ordering the ribbon mahogany ply to reskin the sides of the hull and decks. It looks as though the boat was originally built with one piece side skins, as i cant find any seams. If so, can the plywood be obtained in lengths of 14' to do a full length skin? If not, where should the ply be sectioned?

Also, when fastening, should I use the original type nails, or go to screws? What should be used to seal the joints that wont cause discoloration to the mahogany?

Thanks for the advice

Joe

[Mark75H]

If I recall correctly Harbor Sales will custom scarf long lengths on special order. Probably pretty expensive;)

[JohnsonM50]

I dont think Harbor will scarf join anymore but it can be done with some patience. You might be able to get 10s. The joints should be staggered from panel to panel and are best to be kept forward Id join the bottom most forward, then sides, then the top. I built my Airborn with screws [ss] and West system epoxy to bond and undercoat. This turned out to be a rugged semi-rough water boat that I doubt nails could handle. The epoxy saturation also adds some strength to the plywood but needs to be topcoated with UV protectant varnish or paint. Nails need to be pounded home with a hammer and backing tool. My thought was that while in progress loosening could occur. Due to the need of a backer while nailing screws dont take longer to do. Air staplers are being used these days but some on my hydro are backing out leaving me skeptical of this as a good means to build a long lasting minimal maintenence hull.
Be mindfull of laying out fasteners so they dont meet from top to side/side to bottom etc. old addages really apply.. haste makes waste, oz of prevetion lb of cure. Ribbon will look real good, best of luck. :cool:

[mark30h]

thanks for the advice. I just got back from the garage, and an area of the side planking that looked to be delaminating appears to be an original scarfed joint about 8' forward from the transom. Makes sense. I guess im going to have to buy a sheet of 1/4" ply this weekend and begin practicing before I order the ribbon mahogany sheets.

Joe

[Tim Chance]

when I built boats I never bought pre-scarfed sheets (I was too cheap) and I never scarfed myself (it was too hard for me to do). I always used butt joints between frames with a backing piece. I never joined on a frame as I thought that could put stress on the joint and could make it crack open and show up more.

I rebuilt the boat in my avatar and there is a butt joint about a foot forward of Y-200, of course this isn't nice ribbon stripe (again I'm too cheap) but painted.

[JohnsonM50]

Practice is a good idea, I read and looked at how to scarf join then did a practice test too. Heres some thoughts.. Instead of the difficulty of joining a whole peice ruff cut them to shape and join what you need per area. Mark out accurately the 2 in plane areas. If you want try to match up grain, I did and it looks cool. I used an electric woodplane to get close then a sharp block plane to get near finish. Do both peices and test fit as you go. Watch for curving of the join surface.
Now for what really makes it happen..lay the bigger peice on the edge of a good straight worktable long end of scarf down. Flip the small peice, scarf long down also. Itll look like a 4 inch scarf. Align the scarf cuts closely and clamp. Get a good flat surfaced peice of wood or something and contact cement medium sandpaper to it. Sand the 2 scarfs at once and keep the block from tipping so it doesnt round edges. youll get a better scarf than you might buy this way. When you glue it I suggest West epoxy [even if you dont want it anywhere else] and be very careful to get a flush fitted surface on the visable side. you can thru tack it outside the ruff cut area to location pin it and lay some wax paper on the epoxy[sqweegeeing some excess off here would be good] before paper, clamping or weighting.
when cured be carful sanding the area as the finish wood veneer is thin and the epoxy is hard to sand. Wax paper under is advised too cause the epoxy is so strong if stuck to the table it woudlnt come loose. Mike

[JohnsonM50]

when I built boats I never bought pre-scarfed sheets (I was too cheap) and I never scarfed myself (it was too hard for me to do). I always used butt joints between frames with a backing piece. I never joined on a frame as I thought that could put stress on the joint and could make it crack open and show up more.

I rebuilt the boat in my avatar and there is a butt joint about a foot forward of Y-200, of course this isn't nice ribbon stripe (again I'm too cheap) but painted.
That is also a good method and your right to join between frame members as they too would be stressed at the 1st sign of movement. Again here too epoxy is so strong that whats next to it is where something might happen if anything.

[JohnsonM50]

I thought of 1 more thing Joe, however you do it a straight edge should be used to assure the ribbon stripes stay straight at least on the deck. Having them mis-align would detract from the look. :eek:

[David Mason]

Scarf Joint tool from West System. It attaches to most Skill Saws and will allow you to make great scarf joints.

[RogerH]

Hey Dave,
Have you used the West System tool? I also need to scarf some plywood on a "D" Speedliner I have apart. Was thinking about purchasing the W.S. tool. Great discussion on a rather misunderstood process - thanks for all the suggestions.
Roger

[JohnsonM50]

Id like to read up if anyone has used one, I saw a description using a large hand plane to do the job. That would be difficult to get right. A normal power saw with a 7 1/4 blade will cut about 2 1/4 to 2 3/8 deep straight down, less at an angle. Im curious to see how it will cut a scarf. [and want one]

[mark30h]

thanks for all the input. Whats the cost of the west attatchment, and will it work with all circular saws?

[mark30h]

Fortunately the bottom and frames are excellent, and the boat really needs only the sides, the decks (which just look like cut and fit),and one lower chine replaced to be a real showpiece. The lower chines are painted, so I will be able to get away with some std marine ply there. I orignally thought about butt joining the sides, but im concerned that the slight compound curves will be difficult to make on the forward areas of the boat and that a backing plate would detract from the appearance of the inside of the hull.

Ill try to get some pics of the boat as it currently is posted tomorrow. Its too bad cause it looks really nice, until you get right up to it and the sins and some bad wood on the sides show up.

The NY registration lists this as a 1952, ser #014, but it seems as though the zephyr wasnt made til 56. Any speedliner experts out there?

Its interesting also that the transom remained at the original Q or 36 class height until 2000, when it was cut down for an H motor by the previous owner.

Joe



Joe

[David Mason]

The one I purchased about 5 or 6 years ago was around $50 if I remember right. It attaches to almost any circular saw. It did not attach to mine, as I was using the Woodhawk. It is a smaller saw than your normal. It seems to work best on the old style saws with a metal plate rather than plastic. You have to drill holes and bolt this on. Be better suited to purchase a saw and once you mount it, leave it alone.

It does a pretty decent job. As with all manual cuts, it is prone to girly waves. You have to be steady with your hand, so have at least two beers first to calm the nerves.

If you go to West Systems website I think you can see it.

[JohnsonM50]

The one I purchased about 5 or 6 years ago was around $50 if I remember right. It attaches to almost any circular saw. It did not attach to mine, as I was using the Woodhawk. It is a smaller saw than your normal. It seems to work best on the old style saws with a metal plate rather than plastic. You have to drill holes and bolt this on. Be better suited to purchase a saw and once you mount it, leave it alone.

It does a pretty decent job. As with all manual cuts, it is prone to girly waves. You have to be steady with your hand, so have at least two beers first to calm the nerves.

If you go to West Systems website I think you can see it. :D to beer! A clamped on straight edge too :)

[bill boyes]

Id like to read up if anyone has used one, I saw a description using a large hand plane to do the job. That would be difficult to get right. A normal power saw with a 7 1/4 blade will cut about 2 1/4 to 2 3/8 deep straight down, less at an angle. Im curious to see how it will cut a scarf. [and want one]I learned to scarf from the DeSilva Bros a long time ago.
I use a Stanley 60 1/2 block plane, a straight edge ruler and a wood rasp fine cut. I have scarfed panels 4 ft wide and up to 1/2" thick. I have seen info on the SKill Saw attachment and it would be good for the larger plys. In building the boats that I do I use mostly 3mm, 4mm, 5mm and 6mm and I do not think the Skill Saw attactment would would suite my needs.
I'am about to scarf some 4mm for the decks of a Bezots that I'am building. Will take some pictures on how I do it as it is really hard to explain. Pictures are somtimes worth a thousand words.

[David Mason]

I would love to see pics of your scarfing methods. It is like you said, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I feel there is no best way to do it, just a way that works for you. It would be so much more simple if they cut the plywood in 15' lengths...... no scarfing would be needed for most kneelers !

The West attachement works okay with the 3mm - 6mm plywood. The way it works is cutting it from the end, meaning your saw is sitting on the edge of the wood, with the blade extending the length of the wood. Makes it hard for a straight edge to be used unless you make some sort of jig yourself.

It is much faster than planning a scarf joint, but I doubt it is as pretty as what you are doing when you are good at it.

[bill boyes]

Here is some good reading on Scarffing. Wooden Boat magazine Nov/Dec 2003 isssue 175 page 46. "A jig for scraffing plywood." Make your own jig and use a Skill Saw. Also go to www.johnhenryinc.com. They make a planner-scraffer attachement for the Makita 1900b and 1912b electric planner. Or call them at 251-626-2288. nice people. I thinking of buying one for my 1900b planner. Getting too old for the larger Scraffing jobs. Hard on the shoulder joints.

[Gstillwill]

Here is how I scarf a joint I use a router with a 45 degree veining bit and a guide clamped to the plywood just set the depth of the bit and measure the distance from the edge of the bit to the edge of the router and clamp the guide at that distance. Take the other piece and do the same on the underside and they will fit together like a glove.

[JohnsonM50]

Here is some good reading on Scarffing. Wooden Boat magazine Nov/Dec 2003 isssue 175 page 46. "A jig for scraffing plywood." Make your own jig and use a Skill Saw. Also go to www.johnhenryinc.com. They make a planner-scraffer attachement for the Makita 1900b and 1912b electric planner. Or call them at 251-626-2288. nice people. I thinking of buying one for my 1900b planner. Getting too old for the larger Scraffing jobs. Hard on the shoulder joints. Thats the same kinda planer I used but to freehand the rough and sand most of the rest. They came out good and even at 2 in per 1/4 in slant, the 1/8 ply is 1 in slant. It took alot of time and I can see how a good jig would really work. Of course your planer would need new, clean properly adjusted blades to really do it nice. The aligning the 2 slants and sanding them as 1 really works too for an extra fine finish, it removes any small variations.

[Roy Hodges]

Roy Simons ,who built Simco boats ..in Vallejo,California ; in the late 1950's ,scarfed his own plywood ,using a joiner ,and scarfed the 1/4" sheets -4"wide, &glued them together with resorsinol glue . worked perfect . AT first ,he bought Royal Marine plywood, but after finding voids in them , he said "why pay big bucks ,when their not perfect, like they're advertised ?"

[Tim Weber]

Bill,

I think your idea of posting pics is great. For those of you that haven't seen a Desilva scarf joint, they are the masters! The joint is seemless and as close to perfect as you can get.

I asked Ralph why he never made a jig or used a scarfing tool for a Skil saw.
His response was " what do I need that for ? By the time I would set the thing up I could have the joint finished by hand."

If your good it doesn't really take that long. For me, it takes a while.

Tim

[David Mason]

Here is how I scarf a joint I use a router with a 45 degree veining bit and a guide clamped to the plywood just set the depth of the bit and measure the distance from the edge of the bit to the edge of the router and clamp the guide at that distance. Take the other piece and do the same on the underside and they will fit together like a glove.

I have done this as well. The only problem I had with this method is when using it to scarf lets say 3MM on the decks is the joint did not have enough surface area for the joint to be strong. Meaning, when I picked the piece up it would break at the joint some times.

A couple times I would route about 3 inches back from the edge the depth of the piece I was scarfing to it. If they were the same thickness it would be half the thickness. I would do the same witht he other piece. I believe it is called lapping ? It was the strongest of any of the joints I made. And it worked great for different thickness plywood scarfing together.

I agree with Ralph Desilva, it takes less time to do it by hand then to set it all up. But most of us are not masters either !

[A/B Speedliner]

In our construction of the A/B and now the C/D Aeroliner (Speedliner) of the 1960 Vintage we obtain 12'Sheets of 6mm Mahogany plywood from Maurice Condon in Westchester County, New York. I also understand Boulter Plywood in MA. has sheets up to 16'. http://www.boulterplywood.com/

I use the West System tool for scarfing the 4mm sides, I do not used the epoxy but find that Titebond III works good. Go to our web site to see some of the pictures of the consturction. www.aeroliner-boats.com

[mark30h]

ok- ordered the saw attachment from West today, put aside a whole bunch of 1/4 and 3/8 pices to practice, and have the west epoxy ready. Thanks to all for the help. Im pretty excited to get some practice in before I order the ribbon stripe. Im going on local advice that all the 'liners were built with ribbon ply, although my wallet tells me okume is the way to go. I want the boat to be right, so am I going in the right direction for originality sake with the ribbon?

thanks all-

Joe

[JohnsonM50]

ok- ordered the saw attachment from West today, put aside a whole bunch of 1/4 and 3/8 pices to practice, and have the west epoxy ready. Thanks to all for the help. Im pretty excited to get some practice in before I order the ribbon stripe. Im going on local advice that all the 'liners were built with ribbon ply, although my wallet tells me okume is the way to go. I want the boat to be right, so am I going in the right direction for originality sake with the ribbon?

thanks all-

Joe If ribbon actually is origional [not sure] It would be what Id choose for restoration proper. Okoume is great race boat ply but dosent have the look of ribbon, sepele or zebra to name a few.

[Gstillwill]

Dave when I do that with the thinner plywood I make a 1 in wide 3mil fish plate under the joint to make it stronger never see it when the decks are on. Here are a few boats I did with the dark Saple stripe wood, two BSH's and a CSH.

[champhotrod]

Have not followed this post everyday so I do not if any posted about the origianl wood they used. Speedliner made their own plywood and advertised it as Philippine
mahogany. This is not currently available that I know of and the ribbon strip is about as close as you can get.

Cooper

[bill boyes]

I used to buy Philippine Ribbon Mahogany Marine Plywood from U.S. Plywood in Long Beach Calif.

[bill boyes]

I learned to scarf from the DeSilva Bros a long time ago.
I use a Stanley 60 1/2 block plane, a straight edge ruler and a wood rasp fine cut. I have scarfed panels 4 ft wide and up to 1/2" thick. I have seen info on the SKill Saw attachment and it would be good for the larger plys. In building the boats that I do I use mostly 3mm, 4mm, 5mm and 6mm and I do not think the Skill Saw attactment would would suite my needs.
I'am about to scarf some 4mm for the decks of a Bezots that I'am building. Will take some pictures on how I do it as it is really hard to explain. Pictures are somtimes worth a thousand words.
pictures of how I scarf.

[bill boyes]

The next deck material I scarf I think I will not use wood flour as a thickener. Just epoxy so as not to have a dark brown line. If course if one is to paint over the scarf then no matter.

[atver13]

do u have plans?

[bill boyes]

Plans for what?

[atver13]

the boat.

[RogerH]

Wow! I can't believe the material that's been presented on this thread since it started. Truly invaluable material, of the type that seems to be disappearing rapidly in this country. It's so refreshing to read about all the people doing this type of work and the various techniques they use. Thanks also for their candid advice.
I haven't been near my "D" Speedliner in about a year, but my garage is nearing completion and I need to get back to it. Must admit that a 17' Molinari has moved to first place on the to-do list.
Thanks to all those that have contributed to this thread - Roger