ethanol dangers and damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wawa c
i read most of smitty's attachment. a lot of technical jargon and such. but to get to the bottom line, is this what it is saying? ethanol does not cause any measurable harm. we are mostly at the mercy of the other additives blended in to combat the weather or other outside circumstances. someone with the facts please shed some light on this.
The problem with the ethanol "moon-shine" gasoline is that, (according to my old chemistry-1 professor), ethanol/alcohol dissolves aluminum and certain types of rubber. Furthermore, it will deteriorate "so called" alcohol proof plastics and rubber fuel components by a reaction that will cause them to harden and crack or break over a relatively short period of time. It is not the other additives necessarily. If one has ever come across an old Alky outboard engine that has long been out of service, one may notice that the fuel lines and seals are hard as a rock and/or broken. Yes, it burns clean, but it is no good for domestic use in any type of domestic vehicle at too high of a quantity per unit of gasoline.
outboard vs automobile with ethanol gas
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Originally Posted by
A Mosny
My days with outboard racing and repair lasted from 1975 thru 1985 and during that period I cleaned and de-gummed many carbs and fuel systems from 6 hp all the way to 35' off shore boats. Sitting without gas turn over was the issue in every case, additives were only beginning to be developed and the gas degraded. Now a senior citizen and still maintaining 4 outboards I'm glad to say I have not had a gas related issue in years with the use of regular 10% pump gas with stabilizers only during the winter when it sits. I work in the chemical industry and use both methanol and ethanol by the thousands of gallons, distill it, and re-use it...good stuff for making color pigments for automotive paint and cosmetics. We have no issue with corrosion but hoses and gaskets are a different story. Material of construction is the key and with the right material and preventative maintenance things last. Our pontoon has a 5 year old 115 Suzuki which is serviced and checked annually and has never failed to promptly start but this year the fuel line was replaced because it had hardened. For me this is normal wear over 5 years. I have no issue with ethanol gas and when used with up dated equipment works great. The link to the gasoline report was very helpful in understanding the gas/ethanol history. Just my 2 cents...Thanks
As far as outboards go......in accordance to my recent statements.......ethanol can be lived with. But, when it comes to older cars and trucks (particularly carburated) it can be a dangerous problem. With an outboard, its easy to replace stuff when needed because of the problems associated. One can get to fuel lines, pumps, carb and so on as it goes bad, and easily inspect it all right there. But when you have a car with a hot set of headers or manifolds fuel can leak onto, and lines under the vehicle, and goodness knows... those rubber fuel tanks like the 1970s thru 80s dodge trucks use, it aint easy to catch potential fuel system failures. I know this first hand. So as I said before, "this stuff is outright dangerous". Just because I run it in my outboard doesn't mean I think ethanol gas is o.k overall. I don't. I believe that there should be non ethanol offered at most every gas station. Not every one can use this stuff and like me, many still drive older vehicles. I would run non ethanol in my truck, but it has a factory big block v-8 with a 10.25:1 compression. That's how it came from the factory, its not a hot-rodded vehicle so don't do the "I told you so" thing, Please:p!!! The octane boost stuff seldom does what is claimed and non ethanol isn't always available in 97 grade high test. I have to do 97 in ethanol because I would do more damage otherwise. YES!!!! OCTANE DOES MATTER!!!!! NO, YOU WONT NOTICE IT ON A ORDINARY ENGINE!!! But if you are running an early high compression v-8 or some later model high compression inboard marine engines that are similar to these, they WILL KNOCK, PING, AND DIESEL WHEN YOU TRY TO SHUT THEM OFF! 97 octane drastically reduces and stops this and that's a fact.
fuel cost and todays "PERFORMANCE SUPER HEMI/ 400 HP PICKUP TRUCKS?"
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Originally Posted by
Master Oil Racing Team
The cost is basically a result of government regulation. Ethanol free gas is higher due to reduced supply because it is batch made. But our government requires many different blends of gasoline depending upon what part of the country the gas is sold in and the time of year. Refineries have to finish up whatever they are making and switch to something else causing time, sampling, testing, etc. That does not include lost production from turnarounds which can take several weeks or more. If left up to the refiners themselves, we would have a good finished product at a much cheaper price. Remember when a pipeline went down that was shipping a Chicago specific blend? Rather than being able to use gasoline from a closer refinery, the gasoline made for Chicago had to be trucked up from Louisiana or Mississippi....wherever it was making that blend. The costs went above five dollars per gallon due to the added transportation costs.
Fuel cost, pollution paranoia, and these over powered small block v-8 and six cylinder engines. That's what really gets me. It seems we are in a double standard way of life every time one turns around! The goal of government is or was to eliminate old cars and trucks with big, so called, fuel wasting engines. Yet, we can buy a 440hp Laguna Seca BOSS 302 Mustang, a SRT 392 cid hemi dodge challenger (425HP), or a chevy Silverado with 405hp v-8, a dodge 1500 hemi with 390+hp. And don't forget the barrage of 280-360 hp v-6 family cars out there. Why??? I have an old truck with a big block four barrel v-8. It is just as fast and pulls as good and gets as good......actually better fuel economy than these bulky, heavy, square Tonka trucks people drive today. Really, I'm not kidding, it does. Its easy to maintain as well. That's why I don't care about new vehicles. They don't save gas any better than old cars if one knows how to drive the old cars. There is always a fuel shortage thing thrown at everyone, then there is the guilt trip-"your old vehicle is polluting mother earth!" and so on. Yet, there is that 500 hp truck or car winning an award for innovation at Sema! I think it is all ridiculous. Ill just stick to a good heavy duty, long lasting elephant motor with a trusty carburetor. The problem is the people behind the scenes trying to mess it up with that dang ethanol. CONSPIRACY ANYONE???LOL!!! But really, it is a bit of a pain though at times.
Another thing that grinds my gears are those awful diesel pickup trucks!!! Now here is pollution!!! Guys, if I can smell it (it is really bad, makes my eyes burn and chest hurt) it is polluting. The smell of these charcoal chuggers/ kerosene cars is ridiculous!! Now I have been a trucker over a 15+ year period. Semi trucks are not such a problem even though they average 475-550 HP @ 1100-1250 ft lbs of torque. They don't pollute as much because they are 15-18 liter engines.... that's 800- 1000+ cubic inches. The pickup trucks are trying to get the diesels they use to power like these commercial freight haulers!! It is childishly insane!! Any time a small engine powered by diesel is having a overshot of fuel for more power, it will stink and pollute. Those monster turbos and pollution systems really can only do so much for these little 400+ cid v-8 engines. They shouldn't make more than 200BHP. It should be a law. Not to change the subject.
Our Government at Work: 15% Ethanol is a Joke
First of all, making ethanol from corn takes more natural gas than anyone talks about. Natural gas heats the corn causing it to "FERMENT" and make ethanol. So, this BS about corn as a renewable fuel is a JOKE.
There was a study released by our government and funded by our government that said ethanol caused more pollution the petroleum fuel...Of course, the Owebama Regime says the study is flawed.
10% ethanol in gasoline dropped horse power by 22%.
Who is the largest farmer in America? Parker Daniel Middleton or some company with a name like that.
mileage then and now/ false efforts and bogus reasons
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Originally Posted by
champ20B
Everything from auto or marine, lawn ect is all in on the ethanol issue. I thought I was on a feasible track. I brought up observations, facts, and contradicting factors to question the legitimacy of bombarding America with ethanol to begin with.
And a slant six 225 was an excellent marine engine. It was a hulk, had amazing mileage, had a 4.2" piston stroke with a boat load of torque. Also, the drive trains behind these engines ranged from compact cars all the way to 2-ton haul trucks. It made 160 hp at only around 3800 rpm with a small 2BBl carb and had twice the low end torque of a engine of which you speak. That is right on the money for a inboard boat. Furthermore, I can do 18-20 mpg with good driving techniques and my truck runs clean. I don't need ethanol. My old merc mark-20 outboard likes it, but that noisy abomination of engineering would have been better as an alky racer than a fishing motor anyway. It always runs for me though. Anyway, Like the previous reply, leave the corn to the chickens.
MOONSHINE IS FOR DRINKIN.......NOT DRIVIN!!!! ;)
Another thing I want to bring up is mileage. An experienced mechanic just told me that the old six bangers in the 1960s-80s (like the slant six dodge) would easily do 30-40mpg all day with good driving. Good driving means effort on the drivers part and not a computer injection/oxygen sensing system doing it. Fact is, despite government and organization claims, todays cars aren't saving gas compared to past designs that much at all. Jeff just clarified that with a souped up 4 cylinder that makes 6 cylinder power. Why? Why not make a 6 cyl with 163 hp and have better torque? Because it would last longer. That's why 6 CYLINDERS ARE MAKING 200-360HP NOW!!! Does that sound like an effort to save fuel? Not to me. Why can we get 400hp pickup trucks?! So they break quicker. Sell more cars and trucks!! keep the ethanol flowing!! Then there are those little badges that say FLEXFUEL...really? Clean fuel, green house gasses, and the better mileage and still have SUPER POWER...is all just hype to sell cars. The corn whiskey infused gas is to implore you to buy them sooner and make some big money for the car and corn industry to get square with Washington. Remember the bailouts for the car companies? Heck, the banks that were bailed out probably own much of the land the corn is grown on. Gotta make money fast somehow!!
There is no fuel crisis, because companies are making these high powered cars and trucks this way.
There is no pollution crisis because you can buy a diesel truck that smells like the start up of a BBQ contest hosted by KINGSFORD.
And the government does not always make any effort to cut back on HP or pure gasoline for their own equipment on all accounts.
We, as everyday citizens, are having ethanol that causes accelerated damage to cars dumped on us so the stock holders in the corn industry can make money and we run out and keep buying replacement cars more often. It is just another lobbyist ploy.
22% Loss of Power Becasue of Ethanol in Your Gas
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Originally Posted by
7500Blizzard
For you guys running older stuff or higher compression ratio motors if you live where it's available run E85 as it's about 105 octane. And yeah until the entire fuel system on these older cars is cleaned out from A to Z and the 35+ year old rubber is changed you'll have problems. And there's no way 10% causes a 22% horsepower loss.
I may have made the number up, but: My son-in-law manages or is the Finance Manager of Ford of Orange in Orange, California. ON a new F-150 it said, "25 miles per gallon with unleaded gasoline. 19 MPG with gasoline with ethanol."
I thought 25 minus 19 was 6 and 6 X 4....in my head was 22%. HOW MUCH POWER LOSS WITH ETHONOL ADDED TO GASOLINE?