Is there anything to the story that no one has ever found out just how fast a Quincy Flathead 6 cylinder could go on a hydro because no one ever kept the throttle down long enough and far enough flat out to find out?
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Is there anything to the story that no one has ever found out just how fast a Quincy Flathead 6 cylinder could go on a hydro because no one ever kept the throttle down long enough and far enough flat out to find out?
John, I don't think I've ever seen a 6 looper held open long enough to max out on speed.
Have you ever seen one run???
Squeeze the throttle and the torque is so powerful that it TWISTS the left sponson off the water.
Just sit back,close your eyes and imagine how sweet it sounded when several of those engines were singing in concert!
The fastest I ever saw one run was at Alexandria, La, in the 70's, can't remember the exact date. It was the same time when Waldman set the 114 MPH Kilo record for "D" Hydro. Jerry Peterson ran one thru at a two way average of about 107 I think. It was not as fast as Waldmans "D" but it also sounded like it had a lot more left, but he ran out of Kilo trap before it reached its potental. Either that or he just did what was neccessary to get the record. Either way, that sound was probably to blame for some small percentage of my hearing I don't have any more.
The boat was quite long, possibly a Marchetti, I dont remember that either, but a very big boat for the time. In my memory it seemed to be 13-14 ft long, and as Gene said, the 6 would really torque a boat.
Waldmans D was also very impressive, possible more so. It was faster for one thing, plus that was the year all the Flatheads were running loads of Nitro, and he would just basically idle up to the start of the traps, and then punch it. It accelerated so hard that it was at top speed in no time and distance. Then he would let off and very slowly turn around, approach the traps and punch it again. No big run at the traps at all to attain that 114 mph speed. That is why it impressed me more than the 6. I remember that Carl Rylee, the referee, absolutely did not believe that Jerry could run that fast in a Kilo with that boat, disallowed the first runs, and demanded that he go out and do it again, or the record would not be accredited. He got back in, did it again, and when he came back in that time, according to what I later heard, told Rylee if any more runs were required, Rylee could do it (drive it) himself, as that was all he (Waldman) was going to do.
Perhaps Gene East could verify that part of the story. I can very easily believe it, as Carl was God, or thought so, at the Alexandria race course.
Bill,
I read your post with interest. I don't want to split hairs, but here is a copy of the official NOA Certified Record showing that Jerry Waldman set the D Pro (alky) Hydro record at Alexandria, Louisiana, on October 18, 1971 at a straight-a-way speed of 116.883 mph. This copy was signed by then Executive Director of the NOA, Claude Fox.
I was with my dad, O. F. Christner, in 1971 when he got the phone call from a very excited Jerry Waldman regarding the record. Jerry also told my dad that on one of the runs that he got a longer start on, Jerry saw the speedometer go over 130 mph before the boat became literally airborne and totally out of Jerry's control for some time before it obviously set back down. That record was set with a 11 ft 6 in kneel down Marchetti hydro WOW.
As to the rumors regarding nitro used by Jerry while setting this record, I will go on record, based on what both Jerry Waldman and my father told me, that this record was set strictly running methanol and castor. Absolutely no nitro.
Yes, Quincy Welding was experimenting with nitro on some of the Loopers racing at that time. If your memory was different from mine, so be it, but I stand by what Jerry and O. F. personally told me regarding that record.
I went to the regular Alex races in 1971 with dad and I remember we were trying to make nitro work as the fast Konigs were already running it. We had a lot of problems with the nitro burning and sticking pistons. Looking back, with my current knowledge that I gained with many hours of dyno time on engines in the 70's and 80's with my dad, I now realize what we were doing wrong back then. It's always easier to look back, Bill.
Keep posting here at BRF. I really enjoy the manner in which you articulate your stories.
Your friend,
Paul A Christner
ps: As to the question of has a 6 cyl Looper ever been run at full throttle for strictly a straight-a-way record with a non-competition racing set up, the answer is I don't believe so. Based on the horsepower, current propeller technology and raceboat development, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see high 140's to mid 150's (mph) as a speed. That really do have that much torque and horsepower.
Gene:
In my home town, Selkirk there was the Red River space to do it. We saw the transition in the later 1960s from the Quincy-Merc Deflectors to the Flatheads 2s, 4s & 6s. In our local stock outboard classes changes were few already. My recollection was that there were even some Kongs around with pipes that looked like something off 18 wheeler highway tractors too as well as what I would come to know as early expansion chamber pipes.
For speed runs they would come from the south going north starting their run just north of the Red River bridge winding up fully through a little over 2/3rds of a mile to the last turn bouys in the north end of the oval course and they would then make a slow turn around not far past the northern most bouys to return south to their run start area and try it again if they wanted to, testing time permitted.
The 2, 4 and 6 Flatheads which were not plentiful at that point, the sixes least of all and just booted past their counterpart deflectors time after time during any line up (2 boats at a time and not necessarily the same class or raceboat) speed run north. The Anzanis and Harrisons were still cooking in A and B and there were always a lot of As and Bs so it was interesting seeing all them doing their thing with the new Flatheads As and Bs doing their thing with them. They, the As and Bs always got more attention than the C Alkys did because the engines were so diverse and sounded and looked so different from each other.
Some of the A and B runs just amazed teams with larger engines/classes seeing such small things going so fast. The roars and racing of class Ds and Fs both 4s and 6s in Deflectors and Flatheads always brought people to their feet for the entire heats they ran. I have no memory on how fast the speed runs were speed wise but speed and lap timings were going on of some sort by various individuals and officials with boards and several stop watches on a very well measured and bouyed course.
When you see a 6 Flathead just squirt past a 6 Merc Deflector Alky and they were the fastest boats there, sometimes 2 to 3 six banger Deflectors against a couple of Flathead 6s and a couple of Flathead & Deflector Merc 44 cube Fs that was just plain fast. Watching a Flathead 6 outspeeding a 44 cube Flathead class F at the end of the straights was amazing as the Flathead 44 class Fs would be faster out of the turns until 2/3 rds down the straights where the Flathead 6 would pull up and then just barely pass the Flathead 4, then they would amost immediately have the next turn to contend with seconds later. It was dueling.
No one with a Flathead 6 ever made prolonged runs spanning too far outside the bridge on the south as a start to anything past the last turn bouy. We did hear that they could bat past 100mph though. There was an understanding about the distances limits stated at drivers meetings as there were pleasure boats anchored outside the extreme ends of the race course enjoying their view monitored by harbour police in their boats.
I have asked others over the years about Flathead sixes doing all out prolonged speed runs for "topped out" speed but all I ever got was comments about the drivers loosing their nerves trying to do it because the speeds produced too wild a ride for their drivers. Surely those engines could have done in the 150+ mile per hour range with the right kind of hydro?
Good evening Paul:
Re your splitting hairs comment:
Your documentation is certainly better than my memory, although if you only loose 2.8 MPH from your memory in 37 years, more power to you.
Also I think you may be a little too sensitive about my comments about the usage of nitro. If you will notice, I did NOT say that Jerry used nitro on his run, merely that its usage was widespread in Flatheads at that time, at the Flathead factory's urging. I have personal knowledge of that as I talked to your dad about using in my engines and decided not to. I suppose you could say that my use of the word "all" in my comments meant he was using it also, but I have no certain knowledge of that ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I will certainly admit that the word "all" in that context was a poor choice.
I do know at that time, as you relate, that nitro was being touted as a way to beat the fast Konigs, and a large number of Flathead users, including our mutual friend Phil Howard was using and experimenting with it. Again, I have personal knowledge of that as I had both a C and D flathead at the time and was also encouraged to try it as a way to get more power and consequently speed out of my engines. I declined, as I was having enough problems keeping them together as it was, and saw the problems other racers with Flatheads that were trying nitro were having as you relate. I almost was ready to take Stan Leavendusky Sr., as a deduction on my tax return as a dependent, with all the dollars I was depositing with him to keep them running. I finally solved the proplem (that I could not afford) by purchasing first a D and then a C Konig. They worked out to be both faster and more dependable, at that time, for me.
Nitro was legal at that time, and could be used or not depending on the choice of the driver/owner. I do stand by my statement that I have NEVER seen a D Flathead accelerate like that one did, starting from a very low speed just before the traps and achieving the speed it did with no more run than it had. If your Father said it was straight methanol, I certainly won't argue the point. Unfortunately neither he or Jerry is available to clear up the matter. The record set, whether 114 or 116.8 was a great achievement for that time, and what they used in the tank is really not a point of contention with me, now or then. I mentioned it in context with the great achievement that it (the record) was, in that time frame and the attempts to make motors (flatheads) perform better, especially with the short run up to the traps. Perhaps I was "assuming" a little, but knowing Waldman's close association with your Dad and Quincy Welding, that would not be an assumption wrongly made, by anyone around boat racing at that time,
That was also the first time I had ever seen a boat set up for a Kilo run, and after the run I went down and looked at the boat and motor combination. The lower unit looked to be a Quicksilver, reshaped with a whole different look, and the motor was kicked under so far the point of the lower unit was almost touching the bottom of the boat quite a ways forward of the transom.
If I was a couple of MPH off, so be it, I was there and certainly saw history made with that run and subsequent record. Would still be interesting to know if there really was a "tiger in the tank", no matter what you heard. WHETHER THERE WAS OR NOT IT DOES NOT DIMINISH THE ACCOMPLISHMENT, especially all these years later, and that was the point and the thrust of my post.
hi all,
as i have been restoring the loopers and now a few quincy zs i've heard a lot of stories about jerry waldman. i am courious about the gear ratios he used. i've been told he used the d quicky lower units on his engines that had a modified shape to them and used 15/16 gears. i have been told he would really accelerate out of the turns. over the summer i purchased some items from larry latta's estate that included several items larry bought from jerry's estate. some of the items included several spray shields and d quicky gear sets. the gears included a set of 15/16 gears and 13/16 gears. these gears are on d quicky prop shafts.
up for discussion..... has anyone heard of the 13/16 ratios? could thses gears be used on a unit for a kilo run? anyone ever use them.
frank
I rode with Wayne Walgrave at the Nationals one time in F Runabout with his six-cylinder Flathead. Bruce Nicholson was the winner with a Konig and we finished second. The six had miles-and-miles per hour top end but Bruce could get through the corners much faster.
At the end of the straightaway we were going as fast as it would go; and Wayne never backed off. I can only assume that he never backed off when he had that motor on a hydro either.
In 1972 or 1973 my dad drove Larry Latta's for an average 109, just a few tenths under 110 at Kaukauna, WI. This was with the competition set-up since they wanted to get a baseline on the first run. They used a 14' Byers that was built for the weight rules. As the story goes, the wind was soo bad the chop was about 2'. The runs are some evidence as he went down wind in the 115's and into the wind in the 104's, thus the average. They never made another run. Don't remember why, I was only about 12 yrs old.
About 1979, after dad bought the bought, Ed Karelson saw it run at Parker, AZ and estimated that he could build a boat for it to run in the 130's. So Paul's estimate is probably accurate.
I always heard that the top speed was found on a warm evening in Minnesota. I think Wayne Walgrave told me the top speed is several seconds after you fill your shorts. Could be wrong...........but it sounds like the truth.
In 1981 at Detroit Lakes, Minnesota there was a mixed catagory and classes weekend race with Modifieds, Alkys and Inboards. Wayne Walgrave turned up with a pickelfork tunnel hull with an F Alky Quincy Flathead on it and after some ignition teething problems had it out on the water sorting it out but I gather not with the success they were looking for. Then the weather didn't cooperate fully the rest of that weekend either. That picture of that raceboat with the F Flathead on its trailer is on a historical thread here on one the BRF pages for view.
As far as Gerry Waldman using nitro I don't remember him ever doing so and he always pitted very close to us.
I can tell you this, the year we TRIED to run nitro, my ex-wife came to Alex with me in my personal car.
I did not ride in the Buick wagon that pulled the big yellow trailer.
We took 7 motors to Alex that year and blew up 21.
Larry Latta was the only person I knew who ever had any luck running nitro in our engines.
I think my ex thought I had a girlfriend in Alex, but she got the message that we worked at the races and didn't party all night when we sent her out to find burgers for us at 2:00 am while we were rebuilding motors in the hotel room.
SHE WAS NOT THERE THE YEAR GERRY SET THE D RECORD!
Hopefully that answers that question!!
I remember the day he broke the D-Hydro record, but I did not see the run.
We (Quincy Welding) did not run for any records that day but we stopped by the lake on our way home.
We asked Phil Wagner (I think it was Phil) how things were going.
He said, "Gerry just ran 117".
I asked "In the F"?
Phil said "No, the D"!
Jim, Jack, Mark and I were disappointed that we missed such an historic run.
We should have skipped breakfast that morning!
Hi Gene:
Where in the world did she find burgers that time of nite?? Best I remember about that time frame (year) in Alex, you could still find plenty of booze, but food was hard to come by. Maybe that was just an excuse to get rid of her for awhile.
One of the funniest (not at the time) and also the most memorable times Eileen and I ever had at a boat race occured in the mid 70's in Alex. We had been out fairly late partying with Ray Hardy and his wife or girlfriend at the time, and Butch Leavendusky and Tom Berry from Kansas City. We were in a little hole in the wall bar just down the street from the Holiday Inn where we always stayed. Eileen and I had our fill and I needed to test the next morning, so we left and went back to the Motel.
About two hours later I woke to a pounding on the door. It was about three in the morning by that time and knowing my "friends" like I did,I was very hesitant to open the door. I looked thru the security spyhole in the door, and Butch and Tom Berry were standing in the hall demanding I open the door because supposedly Ray Hardy had gotten drunk and "disturbed the peace" at the bar by not leaving when they were trying to close the place. Long story short (according to Butch) the cops hauled Ray off to the jail and they did not have enough money to get him out and needed more so they could go back and get him. Knowing Ray as I did ,ad knowing he was very capable of pulling this type of trick, I opened the door to give them the 50 bucks or whatever it was they said they needed. That is where I made the BIG mistake. Ray, who had been out of sight down the hall, and Butch and Tom all came running in my room with wastepaper baskets filled with ice water. They threw on me as I was standing in the room, and to keep from being drenched again, I jumped in bed, believing they would not throw ice water in the bed where Eileen was. WRONG. They emptied the two remaining containers and ran back out of the room, laughing and acting like drunk boat racers do sometimes. Well there we were, both of us and the bed also soaked with ice water. I called the desk and tried to get some dry sheets but at 3 in the morning the laundry room was locked and we could get no help. We ended up in the parking lot of the motel in our car and spent a very uncormfortable rest of the night.
The next morning about 10 or 11 o'clock, they finally showed up in the pits, not remembering just exactly what happened, but knowing that Eileen and I were probably a little unhappy with them for some reason or another. She and I had already discussed our revenge, and after they showed up, she left and went to the motel where Tom and Butch were staying. She conned the desk clerk by saying she was Tom's wife and got a key to their room. She went in their room and packed up all the clothes she could find and other stuff, and then went out to the airport in Alex. She went to the Delta counter and by showing her airline ID was able to get what is called an Interline bag tag that is used to check bags from one airline to another. It shows flight numbers and city codes on it. You wouldn't be able to do this in this day and time with all the security nowadays, but back then it was no problem. She had the suitcases hidden in our trunk and later on that morning came back out to the lake and very sweetly went to Butch and Tom and told them that she "never got mad, just always got even", and then gave them the bag tags showing their bags had been sent to Aukland, New Zealand. She let them stew for the better part of the day, and of course they went back to the motel and couldn't find the bags and with the bag tags from Delta they were sure that the bags were on the way half way around the world.
I know from personal experience since then,that she didn't break them of playing pratical jokes, but we never got ice water poured on in the middle of the nite again.
The stories are typical of the zany bunch boat racers can be. Thing is all one has to do is look at Joe Michilini's Flathead six with 9 carbs and still the question stares you in the face, just how fast did that thing or Bruce Summers flatheads go, they were on big hydros?? There were more than a couple of dozen of those things tearing up the water..........:)
Only one way to find out.
Find and restore one of these magnificent beasts, slap it on a big boat, find some young driver with big balls and a small brain and turn him loose!
It would be nice to see and run for a record that is based on a class F - 60 cube 6 Flathead that goes like all the hi-tech V-6s and V-8s monsters it did take to break outboard records. Imagine, older, smaller technology (Richard's excepted recreations) going for a record. :)
Sounds like something that could be done and proven. There is just too much engine with the stories not to see an effort organized and done.
What about the Flathead 44 cube class F - 4 bangers? Where there any remarkable single runs that made peoples hair stand on edge?
Finally, were there any Quincy 4 cylinder Flatheads ever built that were the 60 cubic inch size that would have used Merc 650 - 4 cylinder crankand rods assemblies types? There were the Quincy 99s as shown parked on some stock fishing boat made to scare someone off the local lake....:)
If anyone has noticed, here at BRF, I FREQENTLY have IDEAS....Sometime about 1984, I decided we should have KILO Trials between Christmas and New Years at Parker. I had several reasons for this HAIRBRAIN IDEA...One, I was selling a lot of MOD VP propellers and APBA didn't even have a class called MOD VP, nor did they want no stinking MODIFIED Fishing Motor Class...and I thought if I had the RECORD for MOD VP, I'd sell more props...and I did.
Two, Suzuki had given me a 65 HP Motor and Seperits Inflatables had given me a boat....So, I wanted to set two records...So, with my brain and other's work, we put on KILOS at Parker.
Jim McKean and Denny Henderson came from Texas, but most were California, Region 12 guys...
McKean and Henderson actually got UIM records, MY STARTER WIFE established an inflatable record...We registered her as an F Hydro...She went 48.352 in a Vee Hull with a 65 Suzuki.... She went 47 something with me riding behind her screaming all the way...
I went 89 something in my MOD VP and got bitched at by McKean for making the river rough...I reminded him, "I PUT THE F...ING KILOS ON and I'd make the water rough if I wanted to".....we weren't really angry....just sort of...
Anyway, Dean Wilson, Sr. who had just bought a Quincy Six Looper from, I think, Larry Latta...Dean fires this looper six off, he's got this parachute, Lifeline Jacket, on and he starts to head for the entrance of the kilo...This Quincy six, first one I'd seen on a hydro, just kept gaining RPM's and gaining.....Now, keep in mind, McKean had just gone like 115 in a 500 CC or something and 115 looked fast.........BUT Dean's LOOPER looked and sounded twice as fast, about the time he hit the kilo entrance, I figure he was doing 125 and I figured he was going to kill himself and leave his wife and four boys, (parachute or no parachute) he backed her down and turned to start another pass...I was praying for the engine to stop...
He made another run at it, gaining, gaining...both speed and RPM....I swear the boat was on the prop only and I knew he could never make the kilo...He shut her down again...Again I PRAYED for that Looper to quit and I don't pry often....but when I do I want ACTION....
He made one more attempt and parked it ( I gave Dean a lot of credit, the boat was way too small and I think it might have been a 14 footer)....when Dean shut that LOOPER down, I don't think one person at the KILOS made a sound. We'd seen something that SCARED US ALL. We were happy Dean was back in the pits and in one piece.......Seemed to me, if that LOOPER was put on Gray Garbrecht's Karlesen Kilo boat (Current World Record Holder...Lee Davies/Bob Wartinger)...That Looper would break the OUTBOARD Speed Record...
I don't think Dean ever ran the Looper again, if he did I don't recall..89 in a 21 foot Eliminator with a 235 Evinrude was easy...Dean doing over 125 on a piece of plywood was heart stopping....
The kilos were fun, weather was perfect...New Years in Havasu was wild...Club lost money... www.HillMarine.com covered the loses...we never did it again!!!!
So, how fast will a Quincy SIX Looper go??? Faster than anyone will believe....
This man tried the Kilos too!
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m.../Airmarine.jpg
Mark N
Maybe Jerry Peterson will see this and chime in. He, as previously mentioned, did do an official Kilo run at Alex with a Looper 6, and his impressions/memories could add a lot to this discussion, not only about that run but a lot about the six cylinder. I can't remember if he has ever posted here, but maybe if someone has his number they could get him involved.
By the way, sorry to kind of hijack the thread with the ice water story, but it was pretty funny, at the same place in the same time frame, even if Eileen and I were on the wrong end.
I recall Jerry saying that he found the biggest D prop he had and ran an "almost competition" setup when he set the record. As I recall, he had one of the very early sets of Gen III megaphones and he used water injection to pull the big prop through the low RPM range. I spoke with him about it just before the Hot Springs race and he said he was still accelerating at the end of the run, and that he felt like he could almost use that same setup on the race course.
I don't recall Jerry or Bobby (Hering) ever running nitro; the heads on their engines were not CC'd out for that.
Frank V.
No the boat was O.F.'s test buck and the big loopers were 89's not 99's.
The loopers aren't even close to the power used to set the 176+ record, I think Paul's estimate is probably right, too.
The question about 60 ci 4's is a good one, as would be a question about 49 ci 4's ... Merc submitted some specs to Claude Fox in 1968 for a 49 ci motor that had a detachable head and differed in some other ways from production Mercs made in that era.
Old Man Hutchen, Bill Sr., ran nitro in his "A" Looper...As he'd always "FLUSH" the motor with gas and oil after the race...run her on dry land to get the nitro out....Hutch said it was the only way to keep with Waldman and Herring....
I know for a fact harry Bartolomei ran nitro in the Konigs he had, but never in MY (HIS) "A" Looper or his "B" either...
I doubt if Bobby Herring or Jerry Waldman ever used nitro. They were fast enough without it....
No one did more water testing and dyno testing during the hey days at Quincy Welding than Frank Volker.
He wore out a couple of dynos!
Like all of us at Quincy Welding, Frank had a great respect for Gerry Waldman.
If you choose not to accept MY statement that Gerry Waldman's successes came from his incredible ability and not out of a can of nitro, certainly you should accept Frank's statement.
I would also like to rebuff the rumours that Quincy Welding provided Gerry Waldman and Bob Hering with engines that were not available to other customers.
THAT SIMPLY IS PURE B.S.
Frank will tell you truthfully that Gerry's motors never pulled more H.P. on the dyno than the norm.
Gerry Waldman was the best set up man and the gutsiest driver I ever knew. He had the ability to put the H.P. to the water.
Races are not won on the dyno!
I'm proud to have had the honor of calling Gerry Waldman my friend.
Gene, I think for every minute I spent doing on-water testing, Jim Schoch did a month. Jim had an incredible feel for engine, boat, and/or prop changes. He was like a walking dynamometer with a built-in accelerometer. Truly incredible.
You are on the money about Gerry and Bobby's (the "golddust twins") engines. There was nothing special done to them. They would usually send everything down to QW maybe once per season for updates. Gerry told me once that he had this recurring nightmare that he would get to QW late to pick up the engines and they would still be sitting there, unpacked, in their shipping crates. So, of course, every time he called about the status of the engines, I would always answer, "What engines?". And every time--without fail-- there was this audible gasp followed by much laughter on both ends. What a great guy.
Back in 2001 I spent an afternoon just talking to Elmer Grade in Florida. Though their team ran some Quincy, a lot of Konig and some Yamato, he said if you had a D or F Flathead what would you want a Konig for??? At least the Flatheads stayed together crank and all with good maintennance, not so D or F Konigs. He was dead serious. :)
Gene...your and Frank's assessment of Gerry's set up and driving abilities are right on the mark. And I never heard of him running nitro either. If he depended on nitro, he would never have finished as many heats as he did. No matter how good a motor man you are, nitro will take its toll.
Gerry was posthumously the winner of the high point hydro driver in his final race. And he didn't even race B Hydro. As Captain of the North Team, he choose his three B's among other drivers because he didn't consider his to be competitive that day. This was at a time when Konigs were ruling that Gerry won C and F hydro among some of the best in the country.
For whatever reason, some seem to think I have made light or inferred that the D record set by Gerry Waldman at Alexandria in 1971 was done unfairly or outside the rules. THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY NOT MY INTENT. My post was to relate how impressed I was with the apparent ease (very little run up to the Kilo trap) that he made in setting the record, and to repeat those impressions to anyone not fortunate to have been there to see it. I did not know Gerry well, but my interaction with him, primarily talking to him at the races, and being on the recieving end of gratis AC plugs was great, and I had the utmost admiration for him and his accomplishments, of every kind, not just the Kilo record he set that day that I witnessed. Also anyone who knows or knew Carl Rylee would know if there was ANYTHING that was not above board about the run, Gerry would never have been awarded the record. As you might remember, I related the part of the story about Rylee making him rerun the record attempt, for no other reason that he (Rylee) didn't believe it was possible to go that fast with that boat and motor combination.
Hindsight being 20/20, I probably should not have even mentioned the use of Nitro by anyone at that time in Quincy flatheads, much less in the telling of the the story of the runs I witnessed, but because that was the time frame of Nitro usage in Flatheads (and it was widespread, perhaps not by Gerry but certainly by others and Qunicy themselves as Gene and Paul attested to) I thought it would add something to the story. If anyone thinks that I was purposely besmirching Waldmans memory, YOU ARE WRONG. I was simply telling a story like I remembered it and the other things that were happening with the same type motor he set his record with. As to Gene East's comments about "rumours" that his motors were "better" or different than anyone elses spending money with Quincy. I never said that and have never heard it. I did say that he had a close association with Christner and Quincy, and I doubt anyone could argue with that assesment. I DID NOT say he recieved any special treatment or engines, as I have no knowledge about that. IN MY OPINION, he certainly did extend the useful racing life of the flatheads against the Konigs and keep the Flathead competitive longer than it might have been, if Gerry Waldman had not been setting that boat motor combination up, propeller wise and driver wise. Of that I think there can be little argument.
Whether he used Nitro or not is and was not important to me in the telling of what I saw at Alex that year. IT WAS LEGAL, and if he wanted to or ever did use it or not, personally it would not make the slightest difference to me and my recollection of him and his statue as one of the finest boat racers not only of his time, but ever in the PRO category.
If ANYONE thinks I mentioned it to taint or otherwise make less of his accomplishment that day or ever, you are mistaken. I hope that makes clear my admiration for him and his many accomplishments. If anyone thinks I mentioned it for any other reason, they are badly mistaken.
Bill,
I didn't see even a trace of adversity in your post. In fact, it was great to hear a report and an opinion from someone who was there. This section of forum real estate is all about history, and most of us rely on the accounts of others to get all of the pieces of the historical puzzle to slide into place. Thanks for providing a valuable piece.
Frank
One thing I have yet to see is small end "nitro droop" or bend on any Merc or Quincy connecting rods to date on any padded block deflector or Flathead that I have restored. They are but a fraction of the representation here of those that worked with them and or raced them when they were the power houses. Amongst the many spare parts I got to choose from nothing like that to look at either. Today I took apart a Harrison 250cc-350cc custom crankshaft that was assembled with class D Konig rods and some version of uncaged big end bearings. Not only do they have serious "nitro droop" but the small ends were starting to fracture and break up too even though the installed Torrington caged needle wrist pin bearings showed no sign of failure themselves. Evidently it ran 30% to 40% nitro in the methanol fueled through its Anzani cast iron block so even big one piece Konig rods have their structural limitations that Quincy or Quincy-Merc didn't?
David:
This is a discussion board and thread for good things and good people. To me your neither and teamed up with donkey there, curbman does not help when you already got a perverted involvment with obscene junk you used send out, coupled to some crooked cops who are up to their armpits in trying to conceal and ****** case I am writing about as an author. Your part of that literary work, because you gullible but I would prefer your existance be purely background as opposed to being active and stupid.
I digress here just the once to tell you something. I would prefer you stick to the topic and wise up. You not helping yourself :)
Mostly personal to Bill Van.
Like Frank I did not mean to imply that you were trying to diminish Gerry Waldman's achievements. I apologize to you if I gave that impression.
Comments were often made suggesting Quincy Welding built special motors for our own racing team and for "pet" customers.
On several occasions Chris had me set up our motor on a customer's boat and then Jim Schoch would beat the customer with his own motor.
I just wanted to set the record straight once and for all.
The original theme of this thread was how fast could a 6 banger go if some one held it open long enough to find out.
It seems we've strayed from the original question.
Once again I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying
You got my attention again, first off you are not an "author" your just a guy from East Selkirk Manitoba who once lived in Calgary and now lives in Winnipeg, get a hold of yourself. I as well as others on the forum are reading this thread and one thing we notice is some very good information coming out on the history of boat racing from people who actually were there to witness it. This is a good thing but then John jumps in yes you John Taylor with nonsense topic introductions that no one chimes in on. John your sick get some help and keep your thoughts to yourself they make no sense to anyone here. John, donkey can't you come up with something better than a 10 year old would.
Moderators - This mutt and jeff act that follows people around like a puppy needs to be contolled. It does not become the board when this stuff gets going and goes beyond anything reasonable. They spoil things for everyone and the reputation of the board and that is not g
Moderators - This mutt and jeff act that follows people around like a puppy needs to be contolled. It does not become the board when this stuff gets going and goes beyond anything reasonable. They spoil things for everyone and the reputation of the board and that is not good thing for a place that should be respected.
Gene, Frank, and David:
Thanks for your gracious comments. Perhaps, as I chided Paul for possibly being overly sensitive, I was being the same. Sometimes when you can't for whatever reason, "do it anymore," you forget a little about when you did, but that was not the case about what I witnessed with Gerry's Kilo run. I can still see in my minds eye him approaching the Kilo traps, and I am still impressed almost 40 years later. I did make an assumption about the possible use of Nitro, and based on other posts, I was mistaken.
We did get off the subject of the 6, but all things considered Gerry's run was still one of the most fantastic I have ever seen, especially considering the time frame, and I like to share some of those moments that I was privileged to see with others. Hopefully Jerry Peterson will chime in about his Looper 6. I sent him a PM to see if we could get him in this discussion. I notice he has never posted on BRF, even though he is a member. I know he has lots to share if he will, or is able to take the time to participate.
Bill
http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forum...play.php?f=124
In case you missed it, we have a fund raiser on brf...
Hey Bill Van....me neither.:D You just keep on telling your stories. We weren't whacking your knuckles, we were just laying on the praise of a guy who could do things with a boat above and beyond what others thought possible. And anything you could pour into your fuel tank was legal. You know Bill Van that my Dad might have razzed you a little for misunderstanding these posts.;):D Just think about him today and get a big smile on your face.:)
Bill, I hope you can persuade Jerry Peterson to join us. I remember when he went through the traps in Alex with his 6 deflector. At that time it was the fastest speed ever recorded at Alex, and we all know the looper was faster than the deflector