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View Poll Results: 850CCMH / 850CCMR Drivers only - Rule Change Poll

Voters
13. You may not vote on this poll
  • Support Rule to eliminate mods to front covers.

    3 23.08%
  • Not Support Rule Change to mods on front covers

    3 23.08%
  • Keep Rules the same

    6 46.15%
  • Bring back rules from 5 -10 years ago.

    1 7.69%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: 850CCMH / 850CCMR Drivers Only -Vote

  1. #1
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    Default 850CCMH / 850CCMR Drivers Only -Vote

    Please, only drivers of the 850CCMH and 850CCMR class vote.

    Do you support a rule change to eliminate the use of custom made crankcase front cover to alter the angle by which fuel/air in introduced into the crancase ? This would basically apply to all engines currently approved for racing in the class. It is targeted towards the OMC three cylinders currently being used in the class as the motor of choice.

    Reasoning - Currently the rules are gray enough to allow this modification, which will obviously work. I have heard that some builders are willing to do this for a fee. I heard that fee from one builder in particular is $2000.00 if you send them your stock front cover. It will be sent back ready to bolt on.

    I feel the class as it was say 5 or 10 years ago was a cheap class to get into. There are a lot of powerheads still available and they are realitivley cheap compared to the cost on this single modification. I feel this cost will be a barrier to entry for new members of the class. If you want to win you will need this mod type of thinking. The class does not need this added expense. We also do not need to increase the speeds, which this will most likley do.

    I am looking for the opinion of the drivers of this class.
    __________________

  2. #2
    Sam Cullis Mark75H's Avatar
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    Default

    The 49's are more than fast enough as they are. Anything that puts even another 5 mph on the speed is likely to be a class killer because it will make the boats harder to handle ... from that ... even fewer people will try it.


    BUT ... if we were serious about the class we'd phase in some boat restrictions that slow it down to attract more racers. If you did a pole of "why I don't you race in 850?" the overwhelming answer would be ... "its too fast"

    Dave, what would you suggest to encourage more people to race 850? ... keeping it the same, isn't an acceptable answer to the question, because at best ... keeping it the same keeps the same number of racers
    Since 1925, about 150 different racing outboards have been made.


  3. #3
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    maybe you should start a stock 850 class,, so if ya want to go slower go for it,,,, and save a few bucks,,, but every one wants to win so i bet youll spend your money the same or more for props just like all the stockers...

  4. #4
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    Default Don't punish the people who have beenworking hard to win

    The exaggerations of the speeds and the costs in this class have gotten WAY out of hand! If one was to believe the BS that that has been circulated on the internet, one would think the the speeds and costs in this class have increased greatly in the last few years. They would also believe the numbers are dwindling. None of the above is true. In 2008 with a full field of twelve boats in FEH (850H) the person who finished 2ND at the APBA National Championships did so with a DMH (750H). In 2010 at the APBA Winter National Championships with a full field the person who finished 2ND was also a DMH. At that race 850H had more entries than any other class.
    If the majority of the FEH's don't have the ability beat a decent running DMH I think it is a fair assumption that taking steps to slow FEH down will only eliminate the need for the two separate classes.
    As for these trick modified front cases that are supposed to be a "5 MPH" advantage, I don't believe it. At the Winter Nationals I was able to easily win back to back heats beating boats with the cases in question with my max speed being only 93.7 MPH.
    As far as the class becoming too expensive, I am proof that a basic good stock cheap fishing engine with good exhaust, propeller, boat and setup can still do well inexpensively. And Just because one person may be charging $2000 for this modification, doesn't mean that someone like Cheney Street (current World Kilo record holder) or Jayson Hay (current APBA National Champion) may do it for substantially less. (just a hunch, I have not asked them though)
    If you are looking to make the class shrink. Punish the people who are working the hardest and have made a sizable investment in the class with time, effort and money.
    Sorry about the long rant, but rule changes such as this are the reason why my brother and I don't bother to race stock any more. Implementing new rules is more of a Stock mentality rather than Modified mentality. What directiond do you want to take the sport Dave?

  5. #5
    Sam Cullis Mark75H's Avatar
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    "Good exhaust" ...

    My fellow racer, exactly what does that "good exhaust" cost?

    There is an example that refutes your argument that cost has not gone up. I will also argue that the "good exhaust" gave a significant speed increase.

    Ever increasing speed will have ever fewer racers at least at the club level. A class is not a class if it only runs at the Nationals, Winter Nats and North American Championship races. Can you name a club race that was not a Divisional or NAC that had a full field?

    Why did Luce and Palmer drop out of 850H?
    Since 1925, about 150 different racing outboards have been made.


  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark75H View Post
    "Good exhaust" ...

    1) My fellow racer, exactly what does that "good exhaust" cost?

    2)There is an example that refutes your argument that cost has not gone up. I will also argue that the "good exhaust" gave a significant speed increase.

    3)Ever increasing speed will have ever fewer racers at least at the club level. A class is not a class if it only runs at the Nationals, Winter Nats and North American Championship races. Can you name a club race that was not a Divisional or NAC that had a full field?

    4)Why did Luce and Palmer drop out of 850H?
    1)Unless things have changed a NEW good Kurcz Exhaust system is $495 (this is the least expensive new exhaust in modified with the exception of a FA pipe which is not available new anymore)

    2) I did not allude or at least intend to allude to that a good exhaust system does not make a big difference.

    3) The speeds are not not ever increasing. I think Mike Lopez or Jerry Weindt's (sp?) equipment from 1992 would still be tough to beat to this day.

    In 2008 if I remember right, Constintine Mi had a full field along with Lockhaven PA's race on Sunday. I did not race in 2009 so I have no idea what happened that season

    4) At the Winter Nationals in Alabama, Palmer and I had a GREAT race the 2ND heat (so I'm not sure what you are talking about.) As for Luce I would assume that it is due to him also racing 850R and 750R along with his son now racing a large handful of classes. George is a person that will always be at the front of the pack and racing too many classes makes this next to impossible from my experience. But you would have to ask him to get the real story.

  7. #7
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    DITTO to racers edge,,,, my exhaust 20$ and dose work,,, i set the record 12 years ago now,,,sooo??? where are the speeds increasing???... cost to me to make that engine ..just basic pistons and rods and all that any marina mechanic can dooo,,,, as racers edge said,,, it is prop and boat and set up that alll... i deff dont have money soooooo,,,, as far as speeds hec around here the courses so short we only run in the mid to hi 80"S........as for front cases .. sooo more power???? lets just say ime going back to stock front case for now,,,,,, wont say why yet but lets just say my props didnt match the torque curve,,,,,,when all the drivers enter form-e you know the rules,,,,,,, so why you trying to change them now just to fit a few???? it is the unlimited of the mod category,,,, we all know that going in,,,,soooo??? hec the most expensive part on the whole motor is the gearcase,,,,,

  8. #8
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    Default Okay

    I see three racers responding here that actually compete in the class. That is hardly a majority if the number of competitors of the class is so high. This survey will most likely take all summer to complete. I plan to talk to racers at the racers for input. Once gathered, if I feel it should move forward I might make a proposal. Most likely though I will let someone else do it. My wording is not qualified enough to write lengthy rules like I read in the rulebook. It would be black and white.

    John, while I respect you as a driver, I have to disagree that Jerry's equipment and my fathers equipment from back in the day would come close to we are doing today. Unless of course you are talking about a big course with big corners made for big speed. They may be close in top speed, but the boats of today are far superior to what they ran back then.

    Also, do you build your own engines, or do you purchase ? Or is it the team owner that purchases it ? This would save whoever is footing the bill a lot of money if you have to purchase it. And don't feed me the B.S. line. You know dam well that if this continued gray area in the rules exists as it is, only people such as yourself will be able to afford the class. If I am not mistaken, you are a driver, not the owner.

    I feel somewhere someone has failed the class by allowing stuff like this to happen. It is no longer just another class; it is simply a Pro class on gas.

    If you guys want it like that, then fine, but let the drivers have the say so, not the commission, or APBA. You better tell Sam he needs to start designing a longer boat. I already have a design in mind for mine.

    For any interested people, this Poll is also posted over on Hydroracer with additional comments and Poll results.

  9. #9
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    Default Growing

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark75H View Post
    Dave, what would you suggest to encourage more people to race 850? ... keeping it the same, isn't an acceptable answer to the question, because at best ... keeping it the same keeps the same number of racers
    Sam,

    I feel a Modified class for 850CCM would attract some folks. You see, in my experience at the races, a lot of people get excited about the class. Many are very interested in racing it. However, when they see some custom welded parts that don't even resemble the original engine, it makes a lot of them feel intimidated. Modified has always been based of the stock counterparts, or fishing engines. They are basically the same engine, with porting allowed, open exhaust allowed, flywheel mods, shave the heads, try different electronics for ignition if you want.

    I feel to grow the class today, and boat racing in general, you need to stick to the original ideas. Today’s generation of kids growing up don't have the same interests as we did. They would rather buy something like a game boy or a jet ski. They don't want to work on it much. They simply don't have the knowledge. So if we turn this into a class that requires a lot of mechanical abilities it is sure to fail eventually. Why not try to address the problem now before drastic measures need to be taken ?

    John feels the class is growing or is strong. I guess I disagree with that, not based on stats, but on what I see at the races. A lot of 750CCM's stepping up, or even a 500CCMH once in a while to make the three. When the class began its growth cycle many years ago and a lot of people started trying it out, the costs were reasonable; gearboxes were not $1500.00 or more. Then the speeds gradually increased as people found more to do within the rules, and with set up work and props. If I follow John's philosophy it is as if he is saying that there are no more modifications that can be done to the engine in its fishing block form. We have to turn to morphing on custom welded front covers to find speed now. What's next, allow the 56CI block sleeved down to 49 ? Or are we going to be able to lengthen the rods enough so we have to custom make a piece to bolt on the crankcase, or weld on ? Where does it end ? If that is what the current drivers want, then fine, majority rules. But I would expect to see the class die in the long run in APBA. Or at least turn into a situation like DSH.

    Maybe I am wrong here. Who knows. Maybe nothing is broke. Like I said, if the majority wants it, I am fine with it.

  10. #10
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    Default Best use of time?

    f. Proposal – Change Rule 2009 Modified Outboard Tech Manual, 850cc class, Rule 5 page 44
    1. Add: The 3 cylinder 49.7 cu in OMC motor is required to use the OEM 6 hole reed block. Motion by John Sharp, seconded by J.W. Myers. Motion failed (For 2, Against 5, Abstain 3).


    The APBA Mod commission has spoken. A proposal was written, submitted, considered, and voted down. The APBA legal process at work.

    Please remember this is supposed to be the premier class in Mod. Racers are drawn to this class precisely because of its unlimited nature - we love the speed and power!!! For those very reasons it is one of the most popular classes (if not the most popular) in APBA, NBRA, and AOF.

    Consider the risk in your attempts to slow the class down by adding rules, or worse, creating a "stock-like" FEXS. First, such a class would greatly increase the duties of volunteer inspectors who would be called upon to pull your head, exhaust, and intake at every event to make certain your FEXS is stock. Then consider the engine changes between classes!

    Secondly, some will consider alternatives like the unlimited X-class SLT. This is a bore and stroke <1000cc Mod class in the 80 MPH range. You can take any 850/FE/SE mod powerhead (even a Mod-50 or 56 six-pack), put it under a cowl on a shiftable gearcase with internal exhaust, and go have fun! The only limitations are no nitrous, turbos, blowers, or alky. Now that's unlimited!

    If you really don't don't like current 850 rules, write a legitimate proposal and submit it to the committee as per the legal APBA process, it will be considered next year. If you don't like the process, perhaps you should consider another less formidable Mod class. Or, if you really like rules and "inexpensive" racing, you should go run Stock.

    Whichever path you choose, please stop these back door attempts to change rules just because you don't want to invest. If you spent half as much time on your engines as you do whining on HR and BRF, you'd be much more competitive. Which reminds me; I'm late for the shop. Got to finish up another nationals quality 850 - just in time for the 2010 season!

    Tim

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