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Thread: What 2 stroke oil yall runnin?

  1. #11
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    This is a pretty interesting subject since oil has changed so much from when most all 2 cycle oil was intended for outboards since that was the biggest market. I found this discussion on another board and thought it would be appropriate. Sorry for the long post but there's a lot of new information when it comes to oils and the oils themselves are evolving (witness the new Mercury Rejuvenate that just came out).

    The older oils had American Petroleum Institute (API) rating of "TC". The Boating Industry Association (BIA) rating of "TC-W", or the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) rating of "TC-W II." and these oils were originally developed for outboard engines, however, motorcyclists that used these oils found that their air cooled engines ran the best on the oldest API TC oils. These API TC formulas contained a higher level of bright stock 150, a high density petroleum base stock with a consistency similar to honey, that gave the best protection against piston seizure and bearing failure. To prevent carbon buildup in the piston ring grooves, these TC oils used metal based detergents that were very effective in air cooled motorcycle engines but caused problems in outboard engines when operated at long periods of time at one throttle setting. A whisker-like bridge could form across the sparkplug gap to permanently foul a cylinder under these conditions while the motorcyclist operating his engine at a constantly changing throttle setting never encountered this problem.

    When the BIA developed the TC-W rating, they excluded the use of these metal-based detergents in favor of organic detergents to eliminate this problem in outboard engines. These TC-W oils (two-cycle, water cooled) also contained lighter base oils without the bright stock 150. The thought being that since outboards ran cooler they didn't need the thicker base stock. For engines operating in the 4,000 rpm to 5,000 rpm range, the absence of the bright stock 150 had no affect on piston and bearing life. However, off-road motorcyclists testing these new TC-W oils were disappointed with the bearing life of their engines operating at 10,000 - 11,000 rpm and quickly returned to using the TC oils.

    The need for a clean two-stroke outboard oil was recognized when piston ring groove carbonization was seen as a primary cause for engine failure and a new formula designated TC-W II was developed. While this oil was significantly better for outboard use and was phosphate free, it still was not the optimum two-stroke oil for engines operating above 8,000 rpm. The phosphate free mandate was from a concern raised by environmentalists that realized that outboard engine use could permanently pollute fresh waterways. Recently, efforts to develop an even cleaner outboard oil have produced the latest NMMA TC-W3 and this oil, although containing no bright stock 150, has produced better levels of lubricity and cleanliness in piston ring groove areas, however, it is still not nearly as good as an oil for high rpm applications.

    The BIA evolved into the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) which works closely with the outboard manufacturers. the NMMA mandated that all oils would contain non-metallic detergent additives, no phosphorus or phosphates, if they were to have the approval of the NMMA and the outboard engine manufacturers agreed to recommend only the NMMA approved oils. This is a big problem for higher revving engines. Ring sticking, port depoists and low temperature oil flow have been problems with TC-W3 oils.

    Also, many marine dealers were concerned about the flammability and flash point of out board oils. Since larger engines were now consuming huge amounts of oil they had to stock several hundred cases of oil per season. This amount of oil stored in one location had alerted the fire marshals and insurance companies attention and a solution to this risk was addressed by the NMMA. Higher flash point oil with a flash point over 200 deg. F was what they needed to achieve a category 3B fluid rating, just enough to avoid the hazardous storage and shipping restrictions they were facing with all other two cycle oils. Oil manufacturers were forced to use TC-W3 additives or blends with high flash solvents if they were allowed to keep the NMMA license. The high flash solvents caused all sorts of unburned oil problems in engines.The combination of non-metallic/non-phosphate detergents and high flash solvents in the new TC-W 3 oils later caused some severe ring sticking in many engines and Yamaha actually required owners to use a 'ring-free' fuel additive to maintain their warranty, a symptom of being forced by the NMMA to recommend the new oils.

    In Japan, engine manufacturers have developed a series of strenuous engine tests that can identify poor quality oils if they don’t measure up in performance. This became the JASO classification system. (Japanese automobile standards organization).

    The tests include a detergency test, lubricity test, initial torque test, exhaust smoke test and exhaust blocking test.

    JASO FA - Original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
    JASO FB - Increased lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FA.
    JASO FC - Lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FB.
    JASO FD - Same as FC with far higher detergency requirement

    In Europe, European two-cycle engine manufacturers were simultaneously working on two-cycle oil tests. They found that European two-stroke high performance engines needed an oil with a better detergency and higher temperature performance than the best JASO "FC" oils. In April, 1997, they published their ISO global standards for two-stroke oils with two quality level categories: ISO-L-EGB and ISO-L-EGC. The ISO-L-EGB aligns closely with JASO "FB" and the ISO-L-EGC aligns closely with JASO "FC". Then, they developed the "GD" detergency test to run hotter and longer (3 hours vs. 1 hour) than the JASO test. It didn’t take long for oil manufacturers to develop oil formulations that pass this new quality test, and most of them involve using synthetic base oils.

    The problem with some synthetic basestocks (ester especially, which Amsoil, Klotz, and Redline use), is that they are hygroscopic (they absorb water)...which creates corrosion issues. Some combat this with additional additives, with varying success. Rust films on iron liners and crank wheels during a 2 week storage period have been common unless engines were fogged after shutdown.

    Oils like Klotz R-50, Amsoil Dominator, and Redline Racing should only be used in racing situations (long WOT runs and frequent engine tear downs). Redline and Klotz specifically state this in their product descriptions. Racing oils have very high flash points and more anti-wear additives, so they can cause deposit and sludge issues, more smoke, and more pollutants released into the water. The harder you run them the less deposits they build up, but they are by no means clean burning. I'd also highly recommend fogging with a conventional oil after each use to address the corrosion issue.

    Bottom line is that a JASO FD oil is really good stuff. It has a lot better lubricity and keeps the engine a lot cleaner than TC-W3 oils. It's a lot better at high RPM (something we need badly). You shouldn't need to use a high oil ratio with these oils, but if you do use more oil they aren't going to carbon up nearly as much as the older oils or a TC-W3 oil. FD rated oils are recommended for high rpm air cooled engines, but don't build up deposits like the old TC oils in cooler running outboards. You should at the very least be looking at an FC rated oil for any serious high rpm application.

    The Quicksilver Rejuvenate is an JASO FD rated oil that was developed for the Mercury heavy fuel Optimax, that was burning jet fuel and needed better lubricity and better detergent additives than conventional oils. The heavy fuel didn't evaporate as much during injection and a lot more fuel was getting on the cylinder walls. This caused piston and ring problems so an oil with better lubricity was required to fix the issues, so this oil has really good lubricity. Much better stuff than any TC-W3 oil.

    I'm also looking at the Schaffer racing oil, here is a link. This stuff is an FD oil and also has a moly additive that I like and also says that it has good corrosion protection, so I plan on trying it next season...

    http://www.schaefferoil.com/cmss_fil...006%20Logo.pdf

    Not sure what oil ratio I should be running with these oils on a older engine at high rpm, but I will run a lot of oil and keep an eye on the deposits.

  2. #12
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    All boat racers will pick their best weapon (in this case oil) for what works best for them. I will have to tell ya, I have used Amsoil 100:1 in a LOT of recreational outboards over the years with no problems. I have a 30 Johnson that has been fed this oil for 22 years and it is still running strong. This engine gets used year round and I cannot even begin to think of how many hours are on it. On this subject....it is not about which one is best but what works best for you. Would I use anything else? Why would I, it has never let me down.
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  3. #13
    Sam Cullis Mark75H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowjacket View Post
    The problem with some synthetic basestocks (ester especially, which Amsoil, Klotz, and Redline use), is that they are hygroscopic (they absorb water)...which creates corrosion issues. Some combat this with additional additives, with varying success. Rust films on iron liners and crank wheels during a 2 week storage period have been common unless engines were fogged after shutdown.

    Oils like Klotz R-50, Amsoil Dominator, and Redline Racing should only be used in racing situations (long WOT runs and frequent engine tear downs). Redline and Klotz specifically state this in their product descriptions. Racing oils have very high flash points and more anti-wear additives, so they can cause deposit and sludge issues, more smoke, and more pollutants released into the water. The harder you run them the less deposits they build up, but they are by no means clean burning. I'd also highly recommend fogging with a conventional oil after each use to address the corrosion issue....
    Not sure what oil ratio I should be running with these oils on a older engine at high rpm, but I will run a lot of oil and keep an eye on the deposits.
    I don't know about the other synthetic makers, but I'm pretty sure Klotz sells synthetic with different bases. For a while R-50 was marked "Do Not Use with Alcohol" and now there is no such warning on R-50. Their Techinplate oil has always been compatible with alcohol and alcohol blend fuels.

    Can you address the different hydroscopic tendencies of the various bases and which oil brands are using each?

    Polyester (POE)

    Alkyl benzene (AB)

    Polyglycols

    Dibasic acid ester

    Silicone

    Silicate ester


    Also, can you address ACES IV and their claim that it is a lubricant and dramatic octane improver, esp for 2 stroke use?

    Another question about hydroscopic oils ... in HVAC hydroscopic oils are always sold in metal containers and regular oils in plastic. If moisture is a concern, won't we see the same packaging (regardless of racing/non racing application) or are the oils sold as 2 stroke oil sufficiently diluted with other ingredients that they are stable unless directly exposed to air?


    I have seen the moisture problem with Klotz Super Techniplate.
    Since 1925, about 150 different racing outboards have been made.


  4. #14
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    As I said in the first paragraph, I found this discussion on another board, I didn't write it, and I'm not a lubrication engineer so I can't intelligently discuss the different synthetic oil base stocks and which are hydroscopic or not.

    Also many of the high performance oils on the market don't release their base stock information, so it's hard to figure out what is in there. For instance on the Klotz web site there isn't any mention of what stock is used for R50. It isn't in the oil spec sheet or in the MSDS sheets either, they just say it's a "pure synthetic", which is like saying it didn't come out of the ground, but that's about all they are saying.

    I went to the Klotz web site and the R50 is Not alcohol compatible (their bold type, not mine). Maybe it isn't on the bottle, but they for sure don't recommend it for use with alcohol. Here is a link to the page I went to.

    http://www.klotzlube.com/proddetail....%5FQuart&cat=6

    I also looked at the R50 tech sheet and it stated it was ok for personal watercraft, snowmobiles and watercooled ATV's, but there was no mention of outboards. No prohibition, but no recommendation either. I did happen to see that their regular 50:1 techniplate is TC-W3, JSAO FD and ISO-EGD rated and is recommended for outboards. Based on the ratings it's a pretty good oil. It was rated for a film strength of 8, not quite as good as the R50 (rated at at 10), so it clearly gave up some lubricity compared to the higher temp oil.

    I'm certainly not slamming synthetics, there are plenty of very good oils (like the Amsoil 100:1 outboad) that will serve just fine in a stock motor at reasonable RPM's, and all synthetics don't absorb water, so the corrosion issue isn't with all of them, it's just that we have to be careful or you can end up with a bucket of rust.

    I think what we are looking for here is something that will provide better lubrication at high rpm's in stock or modified motors and at the low block and head tempertures that we see in outboards. The Amsoil site has a good 2 cycle oil application chart that shows which of their oils work in what applicatoins. Some of the JSAO FD oils aren't recommended for outboards at all, but are recommended for air cooled and other high temp motors. This indicates that the oil needs higher temperatures to work and isn't going to provide good lubrication where we need it, in a cool block. So just picking an oil because it is JSAO FD rated may not be a good idea.

    Picking an oil that is rated as only TC-W3 and doesn't have any of the higher ratings is probably not a good idea either. TC-W3 oils don't have the capability to run at high speeds and don't have the wear properties we need, but they do have the low temperature capability so it isn't that we don't want TC-W3 rating, we just need to be looking for more. There are oils that have both ratings (like the Klotz 50:1 techinplate) and that is probably more like what we are looking for, the Qucksilver Rejuvenate also being one that looks very good to me since it has both ratings.

    I was not familiar with the ACES IV product. It's interesting, but I've got to understand what the mechanisim is that produces the lower wear before I'm sold on it. It looks like it might be something that would reduce bore wear and that's not bad, but they say that the properties are released during combustion, so it isn't going to help the bearings that are what goes bad on stock engines that are run at high rpm's. Might help with outboard bore and scuffing around the exhaust ports, since they get hot and have lubrication problems in that area. They have some interesting testamonials and some test data that says bore wear was drastically reduced. If it helped an engine stay "fresh" longer that would be a good thing.

    On the other side, are the exhaust ports of a racing outboard any cooler than those of an air cooled motor? The answer is probably not. Piston scuffing, and ring sticking are things we see regularly in racing outboard despite the cooler cylinder walls, so maybe when we are running flat out we need an oil that is more like a air cooled 2 cycle oil to keep those problems at bay. The Amsoil chart seems to agree with that idea, but they are recommending lots of teardowns to address the deposit issue.

    Finally, we tend to use a lot more oil in our engines to help make it live at higher speed, and build the motors so that the bearings won't go south in a few hours. It is very likely that you can make up to some extent for a lack of lubricity by using more oil, and oil is cheap. I don't think anybody is running a 45SS at 100:1 and racing it that way, not for long anyway. At the same time you would like to not have the engine gum up or foul plugs all the time just because you are running a 5:1 mix just to keep the engine alive at the rpm's you want to run. If some of these oils let you run a bit less oil, or have the ability to run a lot cleaner by having the detergents to keep the engine a lot cleaner then that's probably a good thing.

    As we talk experience we perhaps should mention the mixes we are using. Saying that we used brand x and "worked good for me" doesn't tell you much unless you know how much of it was being used and in what engine at what rpm, and when you tore it down it looked nice and clean or it was a smudge pot inside...

    There's lots of things to think about and some shared experience goes a long way to keeping everybody running and that's good for the sport.

  5. #15
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    Lucas has there specs and msds sheets on there site www.lucasoil.com

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    I think you'll like the Schaeffer synthetic oil. We've used a number of their products with good success. We don't see other boats with Schaeffer stickers on them or others who are even aware of it. Our local rep is a cool guy and always gives us a case or two for each championship, high point or record my kid set. He deals more with race cars and wants to give us gear oil but doesn't understand how we can do an entire year with only 3 quarts of oil. He doesn't relate to the couple ounces in a J/A OMC gearcase compared to a car tranny.

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    What catagory does yamalube fall into?

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    The expensive one! (Just kidding.)

    Jeff

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    Default Update on some oil experience

    We were running a small two stroke engine that had direct injection on heavy fuel (JP-5). Understand that to do that we had to reduce the compression ratio and alter the ignition and fuel injection curves to run a fuel with low octane. We had planned to use the Mercury "Rejuvenate" oil since we thought that was the same oil that Mercury developed for their heavy fuel engine program.

    I spoke with the brand manager at Mercury marine and was told that "Rejuvenate" isn't exactly the same oil as their "Multi-Fuel" 2 stroke oil and that the Multi-Fuel oil had more detergent in it and this would be better for our application. In researching it I found that the "Multi-Fuel" (Mercury P/N: 92-858092A01) oil is also only available in two 5 gallon containers (you gotta buy 10 gallons) at a time and you're gonna spend about $300 for that much oil (or you can buy a 55 gallon drum for a lot more). I also found it interesting that this oil is the recommended oil for the Optimax 200XS ROS engine that is used for offshore and drag racing. Bottom line being that this sounds pretty much like "the good stuff" but it's not cheap or easy to get.

    Due to limited availability we used the Rejuvenate in our program and I'll update when we do a teardown, but for now we haven't stuck anything but I suspect that we will convert over to the Multi-Fuel oil soon.

    Finally, the "Rejuvenate" is going to be discontinued. While it burns a lot cleaner than normal oils and really works on reducing the carbon buildup in engines, there hasn't been a huge rush to buy it. The good news is that it will likely be rebranded as a high performance/racing oil since it is also really good in terms of lubricity, so not only will you be able to protect your engine from damage, but it will run a lot cleaner too.

  10. #20
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    Default Stone age?

    This thread offers great reading, and I'm certrain there are terabytes more data available, but a few tech questions should be addressed to make oil purchase and mix ration decisions:

    1) For all the various oils claimed performance presented; at what mix ratio(s) and operating conditions was the data derived?
    2) What is the relationship between mix ratio and lubricity? With what type of fuel? 100LL Avgas which is loaded with lead, 93 Automotive unleaded? Methanol?
    3) Why do factories test at 16:1 or 18:1 (as reported on BRF elsewhere), when most outboard oils are rated at 50:1?
    4) What effect does higher or lower base oil viscosity have on power output and/or durability?
    5) What affect does mix ratio have on power output? (also reported elsewhere on BRF)

    Now a few functional questions:

    6) How many of you have actually worn out a piston, cylinder wall, or bearing directly attributable to lubrication failure?
    7) How many have actually fouled a spark plug or stuck rings directly attributable to oil selection?
    8) If you're burning 10:1 mix ratio, does the quality of oil really make a difference?
    9) Is it possible to prove the differences in oil performance lakeside?
    10) If you only run your race motor 10 hours/year (generous), how many years racing does it take to stick a ring or clog a port attributable to oil selection?

    For the record, my engines run 10:1 (for racing) or 16:1 (laking) name brand TC-W3 oils in 100LL Avgas at speeds up to 8500 RPM with no apparent problems. How can this be?

    Tim

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