Rich Austin, Bill Seebold WHERE?

[Mark75H]

Wow, I really appreciate all the comments on this picture ... turns out its a more cool pic than I originally knew, regardless of where it was taken

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I've been looking all morning for some pics I took at the Nationals in Alex in 1983. I was not racing then, and so rode in a pickup boat for part of the time and have shots of the pits from the water. I never filed these, so I don't know where to look, and so far everyplace I try is wrong. But I went back to that second B&W photo and took a closer look.

For one, there was never a building like the one in the top right corner at Alex. Secondly, while the pit area parking up the hill looked correct at first, you will see it levels off at the top near the brush line. At Alex, the parking continues up at a slight slope all the way up to the chain link fence near Highway 165, and it goes more than twice as far back as the area in the pic. The thing that I notice most though is the hills are too close and to high, and the trees are wrong. If you look at a recent satellite photo of the area, there are numerous buildings plus a baseball diamond where the hills would be. They would not shave the hills down to make a baseball field. I am saying it's not Alex, but I don't know where it is. It's also not Granite City, or Gravois Mills, Mo. I'll bet if someone had all the Roostertails, and went through the early to midsixties issues, you would find the answer. Maybe!

[Donald]

Could it be Claude Fox's backyard in Knoxville?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Ralph was one who I thought might know, so hopefully his suggestion might trigger a few memories about Knoxville. I never raced at any site in eastern Tennessee, but I did officiate a Mod Nationals at Soddy Daisy. Don't remember much about the scenery as I was busy on the judges stand all day during that week, but maybe that is a possibility also.

It surely had to be a site in the south and also one that had a good amount of prestige because of the quality of the drivers visible in the pit picture.

I have contacted Phil Howard and Butch Leavendusky, both of whom are pictured,, so possibly they might have some recollections or input.

Hopefully the picture was not taken too early in the morning as Butch was not usually too sharp before noon after a nite out. He did usually know where he was by 1:00 PM or so though.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I raced the North South at Claude's home in 1967, but I seem to remember the embankment being steeper. But, it was on a river, so the level could change. It looks as though it were taken from a tall judges stand, which was the case at Claude's house. I have some transferred 8mm film that has Waldman, Hering, Seebold, Austin and others in it including maybe even Bud Finkl in his laydown boat. If I can find my disc of photos there are several of the NOA North South at Claude's house and even showing the house in one or two photos along with his daughter. It doesn't look quite like this picture, but it could be the angle. I'm not sure that's where the picture was taken, but some of the facts fit.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

Rgards your comments about the picture possibly being taken from a judges stand:

The first year I attended a race in Alex at Ft. Buhlow Lake was 1968, and I do not remember the judges stand protruding that far out in the water as is shown in the second picture, IF the picture was taken from the judges stand. Unless the judges stand protruded further out from 68 on, I do not think this picture would have been taken from a judges stand. I remember you could step right onto the stand from the pit bank and if you look at the picture it was taken from a good ways out from the bank, further than the judges stand I am familiar with went out.

I just had a call from Phil Howard, and after looking at the two photos, his vote is Alexandria.
The reason given is primarily two fold:

First the appearance of Bob Murphy's boat, V-88. Phil indicated that he and Murphy went together to make races a good ways from Springfield, and Alex was one of the few they traveled together. Sometimes they went on Murphy's trailer and sometimes Phil's, in the time frame of 1965/1966. Phil's trailer is plainly visible, as is he.

Another reason is the date is clear in Phil's mind, for if you look closely at the photo with him in it, he has his hand. The accident that caused the loss of his hand was in 66, so the photo is prior to that year at least.

He feels sure of the time frame for the above reasons, and is pretty positive about the location, as that is one of the places that he and Murphy trailered together, the others not at all similar in torography.

One more vote for Ft. Buhlow Lake.

Sam:
Is there any indication where the picture came from? Carl Rylee, the one constant about races at Alex, was always the referee. In addition, he was circulation Mgr. I think ,for the local newspaper. The participants always got a day or so of newspapers after the race in the mail that he was responsible for sending. If the picture you have is on newsprint, perhaps that is one more clue to its possible origin, and then logically the location of the race site.

Butch is going to look at the site later this evening and I will post his thought when he lets me know.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Bill Van...the judges stand I was referring to was the one at Claude Fox's house. It was high also, and stuck out a little way into the water, The judges stand at Alex was further out than you remember. The judges went out to it in a little boat some years. But, that is another reason why I don't think it was Alex. If the shot were taken from the judges stand, it would not be anywhere near the north part of the pits. The little cove where you, Phil, and others pitted would be in the foreground.

I could not tell with my eyesight whether or not Phil's hand was damaged or not, but I'm glad he took a look. Waiting to hear your results from Butch. If Sam had not posted the full frame, I would have sworn myself that it was Alex, and I think everyone that has posted so far and anynewcomers would have agreed that it was Alex....over....no story. So I'm glad Sam was able to put up the full frame because it's creating a lot of interest and it makes it fun to try to go back and figure out where this picture came from. No doubt a major race with all the heavyhitters. But....you also have to consider that in the midwest, most of these guys might have shown up at any race. That was what it was like back in those days. Every region had a load of powerhouse racers.

[Mark75H]

Bill there are no notes whatsoever on this one. Its an 8x10 from Claude Fox's collection that was on eBay several weeks ago. I spent almost $200 to acquire just part of them.

Some are labeled on the front, some on the back, many have nothing at all. Some were press releases from races far away from Fox's home (an original Carl-Eric Zander Crescent World Record set in Sweden is the farthest). The time spans about 1950 to 1980.


I would like to resell many of them, a few I would like to give away to certain people.

[Frank Volker]

When I first looked at the photo, I thought the year might be 1966, thinking that was the 1st year for the Gen 2 megaphones on the Flatheads. But it could have been '65. The only location that rings a bell is Knoxville,TN (Fort Loudoun Lake).

Frank V.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Talked with Phil again this morning, and indicated that several posters seemed to think that the location was the Knoxville site. His comment was "I don't remember ever racing there, but that is a long time ago, so I can't say for sure." What he is sure about is the time frame, because of his accident.

Butch also called today after viewing the thread and he thinks the Knoxville site is very plausible because of some things he remembers about the "Spec" trailer and the person that owned it, specifically the Wilcher family, also from the Kansas City area. Butch remembers that in this time frame he and Stan Sr. had not started to run Flatheads yet, and the Wilcher's loaned him their "D" Flathead to run on his runabout.. They thrashed about half a day to get it setup and then put it in the water. It was running VERY out of shape and Butch said his DAD ran out on a long high dock and started waving his arms to get him slowed down and back in the pits so the setup could be changed so he would not bust his butt. Although he, like Phil, cannot remember the exact site this all took place, he would not argue with the Knoxville site.

One other thing Butch pointed out which I missed completely, maybe along with others who have commented, is the fact that there are NO KONIGS visible on any of the boats shown, at least I can't find any, as he noted. That would also fit with the 65 time frame as the rotary valve did not make its appearance until after that I think, and prior to that the 4 carb was the standard 4 cyl konig and was not dominant as the rotary valve became. Butch also thinks 65 is the right year.

i have some CD's that Bill Hosler made from some scrapbooks that were the property of Claude Fox. Perhaps I can get a little time to look thru them and see if there are any scenes that are similar to this that specifically state the location as the lake in Knoxville. Or perhaps someone could get a member of the Pugh family to look at them and that might answer the question also.