Thread: Building A looper Beast

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    DaBull Dabull1919's Avatar
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    Thanks Wolf. Guess I missed that. So now we have something to look forward to when Mr. Austin hooks them back up.

    DB

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    Team Member R Austin's Avatar
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    NOW AT 270 HP @ 8000 RPM WITH MORE AVALIABLE



    https://youtu.be/BxykOl63LVI






    Finally the problem has been definitely identified. In that attached video you can see and hear the surging beginning in the first minute and half. The small dial control at the bottom of the panel is the steam wheel that allows the fuel flow adjustments on the fly.
    You can see the hydraulic pressure and the foot pound readings on the panel. in the second of third minute you can see the adjustments being made to the fuel flow at 4000 the mixture was leaned 30% to clear and as the RPM was increased it was back a 0. Once reaching the 7000 RPM level the mixture had to be enriched up to 20% on the rich side to stop the surging.

    Into the second to third minute the load indicator and the EGT indicators auto shut down. Tried to restart the units. The EGT was OK, but the load cell restarted zero at the load that was being applied. You will notice that at idle that it was at near zero. At the very end of the video, you will notice that it read -67, which has to be added to and number seen in the last portion when it was reading in the 270 to 280 lbs, resulting reading 347.

    Had almost convinced myself that I had an exhaust block problem instead of fuel. I will admit that with out the dyno and without the fuel injection itself, I would not ever resolved the problem. Not saying that all is resolved. I have always believed that the carbs on the the TIIX were to large. You have to realize that this 5 minute run consumed 5 GALLONS of fuel. That's right 1 gallon per minute. I believe that as the throttles reached a near open position that the velocity of air flow was so low that the Bernoulli effect was near non existent and could not draw fuel, let alone move that volume thru the float valve.

    The numbers work out to 260 HP by foot pounds and 270 HP by hydraulic computations @ 8000 RPM. There is still more to be had.

    The way it acted at the 8000 mark with increase fuel, I believe that it is starting to have the exhaust blocking the increase in RPM and torque. First order will be to change to the GEN 3 Quincy megaphones.

    All of this will have to take place after I repair the dyno. Each time the engine was shut down we sprayed the chain and sprockets with oil. The last run of about 3 minutes stretched the chain so bad that it dropped off one side of the main sprocket. Went to restart and it made a half rev and locked up. Thinking the worst, that the engine had broken internally. Quick check of chain confirmed the next weak link.
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    DaBull Dabull1919's Avatar
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    I`m glad you figured it out. Not many people would have (me included). 270hp from an inline, WOW! I can`t wait to see what it does on the boat.

    DB

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    Could you identify what the gages in the video are representing? Hard to tell otherwise.

    Thanks,

    Jeff
    "We live at the bottom of an ocean of air." - General Marvage Slatington

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    Wow ! 270 hp.

    Will the Bell megs push it over 300 hp @8200 ?

    Another one of OF Christner's dream engines is completed !

    From start to finish, very, very impressive, Richard !

    Regards,

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by Original Looper 1 View Post
    Wow ! 270 hp.

    Will the Bell megs push it over 300 hp @8200 ?

    Another one of OF Christner's dream engines is completed !

    From start to finish, very, very impressive, Richard !

    Regards,

    Paul
    WOW!!!! Megs and twin plug heads = 200hp/liter = Koenig territory. What an enviable achievement.
    Let`s hope it stays together. Question for the specialists: could harmonics in the long crank cause the
    toothed belt and chain failures?
    This thread exceeds the suspense of a Raymond Chandler thriller - a surprise on every new page.
    Rgds, Wolfgang

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    DaBull Dabull1919's Avatar
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    I don`t know the math but 270hp from a 100ci engine has to be more hp per cubic inch than the 300hp S3000 from Merc at 153cubes. Then you say that 300hp may be possible! Call it greed or whatever but as a racer/motor builder with a good imagination I can`t help but wonder how much hp could be made from this same design only stretched to something like say 150ci. Simple math say`s that at 270hp or 45hp per cylinder based on 100ci would come to 405hp from 150ci. There have been claims of 400hp from the 153ci Merc by some builders w/o nitrous but I hear 370 is more realistic. 405 from an inline is crazy and falls in no mans land but some day some kid will read this thread and do it.

    DB

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    Kinda hard to bore and stroke a 99 cube motor out to anything meaningful.

    Jeff
    "We live at the bottom of an ocean of air." - General Marvage Slatington

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    Team Member R Austin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dabull1919 View Post
    I don`t know the math but 270hp from a 100ci engine has to be more hp per cubic inch than the 300hp S3000 from Merc at 153cubes. Then you say that 300hp may be possible! Call it greed or whatever but as a racer/motor builder with a good imagination I can`t help but wonder how much hp could be made from this same design only stretched to something like say 150ci. Simple math say`s that at 270hp or 45hp per cylinder based on 100ci would come to 405hp from 150ci. There have been claims of 400hp from the 153ci Merc by some builders w/o nitrous but I hear 370 is more realistic. 405 from an inline is crazy and falls in no mans land but some day some kid will read this thread and do it.

    DB
    I guess I don't know what you are trying to say in this post. If you are insinuating that this level of power is not possible you have to remember that this would have to be considered the Indy car engine of outboards. The S3000 is surly capable of producing this kind power per cubic inch. 400+ HP is possible with enough mods. However, what bass boat or weekend hot rod nut would what something this temperamental with limited life and use. The Indy car engines are limited to 132 cubic inches and produce in the 700 HP range. That is 5+ HP per cubic inch. At 12,000 RPM. I wonder what the Indy engine builders of the 50's or 60's would have said to the guy that suggested 700 HP from 132 cubic inches was possible.

    The Quincy built Looper engine easily produced 3+ HP per cubic inch.

    The numbers seen on the dyno support the 271 HP output. HP = RPM X TORQUE / 5252. I saw 178#, corrected, at 8000 RPM which calculates to 178 X 8000 / 5252 = 271 HP. The torque number seen on my dyno needs to be divided by 2 to reflect the 2:1 chain ratio. Is 300 HP possible? I believe it is because the torque number marched right up while the RPM increased to 8000. Typically the torque will peak and then fall off as the RPM is increased. I did not see that, because I did not allow above 8000 RPM, only drops in torque with the changes in fuel flows. The formula for HP has the RPM and TORQUE at the same level of value. We all know that it is easier to increase RPM than TORQUE.

    If I raised the RPM to 9000 with a modest drop in TORQUE of 10# we then have 168 X 9000 / 5252 = 288 HP. Or I could get crazy and raise the RPM to 10,000 and have a drop in TORQUE of 20# and realize 158 X 10000 / 5252 = 301 HP. Even a modest drop of TORQUE of 10# at 9500 RPM results in 168 X 9500 / 5252 = 304 HP.

    My challenge to 300 HP will be an increase in RPM being limited by exhaust. Exhaust is the limiting factor of RPM. HP increases until the lose of TORQUE exceeds the increased value of RPM. That is yet to be explored. I remember back in the day before all the servo controls in model airplanes the throttle was a slide valve on the exhaust pipe to choke off the exhaust to limit the RPM. We will explore those possibilities on the next runs with the Gen 3 Quincy extensions. Risks are destruction of the engine. If you are a Jennings believer, then you know that with this bore and stroke, the limit for usable life is 8000 RPM. Then I guess that is not quite true with the numbers being produce with 10,000 RPM V6's.

    For now I will try the pipe extensions and rewrite the fuel map. I am sure that at this level of power it will be an acceptable ride for my age.





    Repairing dyno currently.



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    Quote Originally Posted by R Austin View Post
    I guess I don't know what you are trying to say in this post. If you are insinuating that this level of power is not possible you have to remember that this would have to be considered the Indy car engine of outboards. The S3000 is surly capable of producing this kind power per cubic inch. 400+ HP is possible with enough mods. However, what bass boat or weekend hot rod nut would what something this temperamental with limited life and use. The Indy car engines are limited to 132 cubic inches and produce in the 700 HP range. That is 5+ HP per cubic inch. At 12,000 RPM. I wonder what the Indy engine builders of the 50's or 60's would have said to the guy that suggested 700 HP from 132 cubic inches was possible.

    The Quincy built Looper engine easily produced 3+ HP per cubic inch.

    The numbers seen on the dyno support the 271 HP output. HP = RPM X TORQUE / 5252. I saw 178#, corrected, at 8000 RPM which calculates to 178 X 8000 / 5252 = 271 HP. The torque number seen on my dyno needs to be divided by 2 to reflect the 2:1 chain ratio. Is 300 HP possible? I believe it is because the torque number marched right up while the RPM increased to 8000. Typically the torque will peak and then fall off as the RPM is increased. I did not see that, because I did not allow above 8000 RPM, only drops in torque with the changes in fuel flows. The formula for HP has the RPM and TORQUE at the same level of value. We all know that it is easier to increase RPM than TORQUE.

    If I raised the RPM to 9000 with a modest drop in TORQUE of 10# we then have 168 X 9000 / 5252 = 288 HP. Or I could get crazy and raise the RPM to 10,000 and have a drop in TORQUE of 20# and realize 158 X 10000 / 5252 = 301 HP. Even a modest drop of TORQUE of 10# at 9500 RPM results in 168 X 9500 / 5252 = 304 HP.

    My challenge to 300 HP will be an increase in RPM being limited by exhaust. Exhaust is the limiting factor of RPM. HP increases until the lose of TORQUE exceeds the increased value of RPM. That is yet to be explored. I remember back in the day before all the servo controls in model airplanes the throttle was a slide valve on the exhaust pipe to choke off the exhaust to limit the RPM. We will explore those possibilities on the next runs with the Gen 3 Quincy extensions. Risks are destruction of the engine. If you are a Jennings believer, then you know that with this bore and stroke, the limit for usable life is 8000 RPM. Then I guess that is not quite true with the numbers being produce with 10,000 RPM V6's.

    For now I will try the pipe extensions and rewrite the fuel map. I am sure that at this level of power it will be an acceptable ride for my age.

    Then maybe it was not the beast on the dyno. Did anyone see it.



    Current 500CC VRP and GRM PRO engines are claiming 160HP out of 30 cubic inches. It would seem reasonable to assume that Dick's engine could pull at least 2 1/2 to 3HP out of 99 Cubic inches. Possibly the long inline 6 cyl crank would limit the RPM as the VRP and GRM are 4 cyl horizontally opposed and very short and compact, but 300 HP does not seem out of line unless there is something there I am not thinking about.

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