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Thread: Old Looper Pipes

  1. #41
    Team Member racnbns's Avatar
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    And a racer could blow an engine on Sunday, order the part on Monday, recieve it in the mail middle of the week, and go win a race the following Sunday.

    This was before cell phones, computers and U.P.S. Been there, done that!

    Thanks again,Quincy.
    Bruce

  2. #42
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    Smitty discribribes the way it was for sure. But the fact is the divided exhaust appeared in late 69 or through 1970 as i recall. I bought a A from Hap Mulvaney and it did not have the diviveder. That was in 69 and motor was a 67or 68. I blew that new up and purchased a new A FA208 at that time. It had the wide elbows and the dividers were in the elbows as well. In about 71 was when the Nito conversion came about. This conversion was a copper head gasket, and water injected exhaust elbows. There were other mods that was easy to make by the owner to help run down that nasty FA Cast iron Konig. The only thing that saved our butts was the Konig retainers would let go after a couple heats and we beat them on staying together. This was in the A and B classes as by that time the B Konig was 4 cylinder and the flathead had it's hands full, as did the A after Walt Blankenstein found a bearing for the FA from Suzuki for the Fa that gave long term use to the FA. At that time Konig had these bearings made, so this made the loopers back runners. As Dieter Konig said to me while at my house in Florida and looking at my mail box stand, " These motors made much problems for us, and we had to work very hard to beat these. My mail box stand was my A flathead at the time. First came the looper conversion as J Dub has and then came other loopers until they went away in 72 or so. This was I think, the best time to be alive and racing. Steve

  3. #43
    Team Member Gene East's Avatar
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    First I'd like to say Smitty did a great job with his last post. Everything he said was open, honest and above board. I do remember the ignition problems we had before CD. I'm sorry I don't know the dyno numbers he asked for. Perhaps Paul Christner may have those answers.

    Secondly I'd like to address Steve's quote of Dieter Konig regarding the Looper engines. I remember catching Dieter snooping around in our trailer eyeballing an FA we had disassembled.

    I don't think he was even aware that I had walked in behind him until I said,"It runs pretty good doesn't it"? I think he was a bit embarrassed at getting caught. He simply said "Ja,ja" and walked away.

    Later Dieter bought a brand new FA P/H through a 3rd party. We know who bought the motor for him and there were no hard feelings. Dieter could have bought a P/H from anyone and besides, that was one more P/H we sold.

    This 3rd party person used to call and ask Lucy (our bookkeeper) to let him speak to the MFIC. She finally asked me one day what those letters meant. She blushed a bit when I told her!

    This person and I had a good laugh about that and the Konig/Quincy deal at the DePue reunion in 2007.

    Bruce's comments about the availability of repair parts was another plus that Konig and Anzani could not match. We shipped most rush parts by Trailways Bus. Most orders were received within 30 hrs of ordering. Many of them were received the following morning.

  4. #44
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    Default 15 ci Konig hp

    Quote Originally Posted by smittythewelder View Post
    As many have observed, everybody's dyno seems to read different, or at least people are interpreting things differently (if not, uh, exaggerating). Still, if you remember them, Gene, or if Frank Volker does, I'd be interested to see a series of horsepower-at-rpm figures for the various Quincy motors, by version. For one thing, you could dismiss Champ's incorrect idea (assuming I have this right, Champ) that the first version loopers of around 1966 were not much faster at that early stage of development than the cross-flow Mercs and Hot Rods were at what was then their well-developed stage. So if you recall, Gene, what were the figures for the deflector engines by that point, and what were the figures for the first version loopers that were sold in big numbers? And if you know the figures for the next stage of looper development, the ones with the wide-swept pipes, that would also be interesting.

    Champ, you are certainly right that if that first crude prototype block had gone into production as we see it in the photo and with no modification, the exhaust arrangement would have been sub-optimal for sure. But I'm pretty sure that by the time Quincy was shipping the first loopers, they had separated the exhaust streams of the upper and lower cylinders on both sides in the block. The porting was different from the prototype, too (that really is an interesting photo!). Subject to J Dub posting a photo of A Loop #1, which I saw on the water many times but never saw in pieces, my guess is that it looks like the rest of the production run.

    Champ, let me also say that when I disagree with your idea that in those early looper years a good deflector could almost keep up, I'm not jumping to defend the reputation or feelings of the Christner family, Gene East, Frank Volker, or anybody who owned loopers. I never owned one back then (have three now), and with my early, skinny-pipe Konig I beat John Myers and was beat by him. None of what I say is about protecting anybody's ego, and I hope it doesn't bother you either, Champ, because you always have interesting observations here and on the other site.

    In the first couple of years of the first version loopers (talking class A and B here) I got to see several of them and their competitors here in Reg. 10. There were A and B Hubbell and Quincy Mercurys, some FA Konigs with the early skinny expansion chambers, two or three FB Konigs, a few single-carb Anzanis (all A's, IIRC), the faster A and B Anzanis of Hallum and Anderson, two 2-carb B Harrisons, and a couple of Hot Rods. Oh, and I can't forget Bill Myers deflector B Konig, which he ran for a year while John ran the loopers (I have this motor now, and am trying to get J Dub to offer me some absurdly large sum for it for sentimental reasons, but so far he has just yawned).

    Now, to compare apples to apples you have to specify that any of the engine types under comparison have to be properly clearanced and assembled, in good tune and running cleanly, and on comparable boats, with similarly good props (and we probably ought to add a condition of warm weather for decent vaporization of the fuel). This was not so easy to do, especially in those days of marginal ignitions. The best ignitions seemed to me to be the heavy Phelon flywheel magneto from the B Stock Mercs, and the somewhat rare, similarly heavy energy-transfer magneto on a few 2 cylinder Konigs. The other mags (Bosch, Sem, and especially Lucas) were less happy for various reasons (not always electrical), and the battery-and-points ignitions were also inadequate. The only big race I ever went out-of-region for was the '68 NOA Nationals at Forest Lake, MN. If Gene remembers that one, it might not be with great pleasure. It was, I'd say, the biggest year for loopers, and there must have been (wild guess) eighty 2-cylinder loopers at that race. And a good seventy of them, with the battery and points, had an ignition miss, just pop-pop-pop every day, all day, about drove me nuts. Of course, very quickly thereafter, the new "transistorized" aftermarket ignitions for cars were widely applied to our outboards to good effect.

    So you have to compare a good-running this to a good-running that. With that caveat, Champ, cross-flow Mercs would be doing well to finish within 3/4 of a lap of the early-version loopers (BTW, I never heard the term "flathead" applied to that motor until much later; looper was the Reg. 10 term for them). Same thing with Hot Rods. Stu Lowe, an airline pilot and older brother of Jeff Lowe who was nationally one of the very fastest BSH drivers of the day, had a B Hot Rod built by John Alden in California, meaning it was as good an alky-conversion as you'd find anywhere. Stu Lowe's Hot Rod always ran well, but he wasn't going to beat a B loop or even an A loop that was running right. Most of the non-Hallum Anzanis wouldn't run well long enough to be any threat (a Lucas mag that if it worked at all would tend to shear off the teeth of its drive gear, bad big-end bearings, wimpy gears).

    NONE of those engines, as fondly as the old guys remember them, could remotely hope to stay on the same lap with a modern Italian engine, even with modern props and featherlight boats. The ports were all tiny and not well-aimed. They sure were cool in their day, though. The sport owes a huge debt to the Quincy Welding team for turning out a design that let the little guy build a fast motor very inexpensively using a lot of Mercury components he already had, ending up with a simple user-friendly, mechanic-friendly racemotor with a one-piece crankshaft that would run with or beat the more complicated engines from overseas. If you saw your good old deflector equipment made obsolete at a stroke, and had to buy the latest new thing just to keep up, it sure helped that the new thing was relatively cheap, and as easy to work on as racing equipment ever gets.

    Thanks, Quincy!!!
    Hi Smitty! About horsepower on one particular engine I remember, I had to do a clean up job on an early 15cid racing Konig for an old friend. It was the alternate firing type with megaphones. I was told by the owner that this engine came in third (if all this is correct as it was a while back)at the 1962 world championships I believe around the great lakes area (Michigan?). Anyway, it was rated at 36hp @10,000rpm and ran 78mph. At least that's what the plaque on its display stand said. I always wanted that engine! I suppose that's about what the best "A" racers would do across the board early on. But 78mph back then seems kinda fast to me though as I think about it. I would like to know if "B" loopers were ran later on in B-restricted?

  5. #45
    Team Member Master Oil Racing Team's Avatar
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    At the 1971 NOA World Champioships at Alexandria, Louisiana the A's were running the fastest we had ever seen. There were no official times, but everyone was going off their Kellers. But there were several that were very fast and were said to be hitting 80 on the Alex course. The fastest and one to beat was Bobby Olsen running a Quincy flathead. Jerry Waldman was right up there, but Bobby seemed to be the hottest. There were a few others that claimed 80 as well, Bobby Wilson, and maybe Kay Harrison and Ralph Donald.

    Our Keller showed 78. We figured we would be out of the running, but we did a lot of testing with Hopkins props. Our Konig was the newer model with exhaust ports on the starboard side feeding into a single sliding expansion chamber. We ended up winning with a new record in one heat the beat the previous years record by four seconds. Bobby Olsen finished second as I recall, and we were very surprised to have had such a strong finish. Watching the other three elimination heats, the other boats seemed so fast, but I think 79 to 80 mph range was probably about right in 1971. From 1968 to 1971 the motor designs picked up horsepower, and the boats got longer and wood decks on the hydros made them more stable and reliable.



  6. #46
    Team Member smittythewelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by champ20B View Post
    Anyway, it was rated at 36hp @10,000rpm and ran 78mph. At least that's what the plaque on its display stand said. I always wanted that engine! I suppose that's about what the best "A" racers would do across the board early on. But 78mph back then seems kinda fast to me though as I think about it.
    Kinda fast is right, Champ; all of that sounds bogus to me. For a pre-expansion-chamber open-pipe A Konig with its little 1" Bings and exhaust-open at about 95degrees ATDC, I'd guess maybe 29hp at 9000, and about 62mph on a B Stock Sid-Craft with the best props of 1962 (talking racecourse, not kilo). The mid-'60s skinny-expansion-chamber FA with 28mm butterfly Bings made about 35-36hp at 9500 with exhaust-open at 92degrees ATDC, and might go 70mph on a 10' 2" Marchetti. This was at the time the first-generation Quincys came out, and good examples of each motor were roughly comparable on a racecourse. Konigs didn't regularly go anything like 78mph on a course until we got the single-pipe motors with 34mm carbs and modern pipes in maybe '70-'71. There was an aluminum-block A Konig just before the single-pipe version, but it was a can of worms, there weren't many, and results were too variable for me to say anything. . No doubt others will protest that their stuff was faster in these periods, but this is what I saw, and our guys were winning some Nationals with these speeds against the boys from California and back east, so I'll stand by it.

    Steve, maybe you and I are defining "divided exhaust" differently. Yes, I tried to describe, as "second-generation," the late-'60s loopers that had the exhaust ports on either side completely divided right to the outer edge of the port, where it matched up with a several-inch-long divider inside the wide-swept exhaust elbow. But I'm saying, and I have a '67 B loop and a similar-age C loop to prove it, that the early production engines DID divide the exhaust streams from upper and lower cylinders so that the ports did NOT point at each other (as Champ pointed out in that photo of the prototype) even though the divider did not continue on into the early elbows. As compared to the later version which you are describing, yes, the dividers in the early motors were pretty short, but they were there. Take another look at Juby's wonderful photo on page 2; that's what Champ was talking about as having UNdivided exhaust ports that would blow into each other (or would if there was any open overlap).

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by smittythewelder View Post
    Kinda fast is right, Champ; all of that sounds bogus to me. For a pre-expansion-chamber open-pipe A Konig with its little 1" Bings and exhaust-open at about 95degrees ATDC, I'd guess maybe 29hp at 9000, and about 62mph on a B Stock Sid-Craft with the best props of 1962 (talking racecourse, not kilo). The mid-'60s skinny-expansion-chamber FA with 28mm butterfly Bings made about 35-36hp at 9500 with exhaust-open at 92degrees ATDC, and might go 70mph on a 10' 2" Marchetti. This was at the time the first generation Quincys came out, and good examples of each motor were roughly comparable on a racecourse. Konigs didn't regularly go anything like 78mph on a course until we got the single-pipe motors with 35mm carbs and modern pipes in maybe '70-'71. There was an aluminum-block A Konig just before the single-pipe version, but it was a can of worms, there weren't many, and results were too variable for me to say anything. . No doubt others will protest that their stuff was faster in these periods, but this is what I saw, and our guys were winning some Nationals with these speeds against the boys from California and back east, so I'll stand by it.

    Steve, maybe you and I are defining "divided exhaust" differently. Yes, I tried to describe, as "second-generation," the late-'60s loopers that had the exhaust ports on either side completely divided right to the outer edge of the port, where it matched up with a several-inch-long divider inside the wide-swept exhaust elbow. But I'm saying, and I have a '67 B loop and a similar-age C loop to prove it, that the early production engines DID divide the exhaust streams from upper and lower cylinders so that the ports did NOT point at each other (as Champ pointed out in that photo of the prototype) even though the divider did not continue on into the early elbows. As compared to the later version which you are describing, yes, the dividers in the early motors were pretty short, but they were there. Take another look at Juby's wonderful photo on page 2; that's what Champ was talking about as having UNdivided exhaust ports that would blow into each other (or would if there was any open overlap).
    That's what I was thinking....I was always puzzled as to how that early of an "A" alky racer could do that kind of speed. It wouldn't be to far away from recent speeds if it did!
    As for early alky Hotrods, I think they were running the old Carter-N that was re-jetted for alcohol / castor. Lyle Swanson found out long after the days of stock outboard based alky racing that those blue devils thrived off excess carburation. I recently built a tilly HR16B carb and it is enormous compared to the Carter. If only they had those big bore 34mm Tilly's on the Hotrods in the late 1950s-early 60s, jetted for alky, those champions would have either carried on into the mid part of that decade in alky classes or blown apart under ferocious power trying.
    One thing though about the early Quincy deflector engines are those "mumps" that went between the carb and case. They were fitted with extra reeds for better breathing as a stock mercury had a sudden drop off in power past a certain point from restriction, and the reeds flow being hampered by the crankshaft weights. I heard that racers would try to remedy this in the early days of alky/mod by using really thin reeds that would often chip and break. The deflector engines were ultimately destined to see their end though as loopers love expansion chambers and deflectors don't benefit with nothing beyond open megaphones.
    But was it the success of early rotary valve racers that inspired the creation of the Quincy mumps on their deflector engines perhaps to equal breathing to the rotary valve? It looked like a good idea!

  8. #48
    Team Member smittythewelder's Avatar
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    Now that's new to me, I never saw "mumps." Anybody have a photo?

    All the old guys are going to jump in and tell you that when they used Carters for alky racing, they were bored way out and set up to be floatless.

  9. #49
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    Smitty is right about the carters and the Mumps thing was short lived as it did not do much, but they looked cool. The idea was that the fuel air leaving the carb and going through the normal Merc cage, had a lot of bending and such to do to enter the crank case. The Mumps were to help this by directing fuel into the crank case. problem is that the fuel air mix is going about 600 MPH and it don't bend well either in the normal cage or the turn required in the Mumps section. Then the charge banged up against the crank counter weights as stated. As far as a FA going 78 MPH in early form is a dream. Maybe 64 65 maybe. Back when the late FA came out in about 71, I went testing with the late Ted Thompson at Lake Mattie to run the " New A". As Wayne said all we had then was a good Keller. This New A would not clear out and would miss and fart as it tried to reach full RPM. The Keller read 76. This was 3 MPH faster out of the box than My FA Quincy flathead. After Walt put some new coils on the Konig and tuned it up, that thing busted 79 MPH and sometimes 80. It made the boats at the time short short. At this time also as I said the Konigs did not run long before they would loose a retainer and guy's like myself could win on durability. This problem to with retainers was solved by installing a Suzuiki retainer that had taller rollers and Konig made a taller bearing race pin later for this. The boats we ran were in the 10'9" range, but soon became 11' to 11'2". Like I have said this was a great time to be racing. The Konig soon took over the A class with a few die hards as myself would keep trying with the Quincy. This Konig would not be challenged again until about 75 or 76 when OF came out with the Z engine and also a little latter the Yamato A. Steve

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