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Thread: Ques. on very old Konigs

  1. #11
    Team Member smittythewelder's Avatar
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    Bravo, sir; you have surpassed yourself! Steve Litzell for Minister of Culture!!!

    (. . . although I think maybe Dieter's name could be rendered slightly closer yet as "Ker-nik", soft k at the end, almost a ch . . . where's Wolfgang?).

  2. #12
    Administrator Ron Hill's Avatar
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    Default Did I Miss Something?

    Hill is a pretty good name, but add an "E" where the "I" is and it sounds like hell. Bottom Line, does anyone have a picture of an early Konig or Koenig crank plate that were were discussing. As I still feel I saw Koenig cast on a crank plate and that is why for many years I spelled Konig , Koenig.

    I mean, I know people from OHIO who say AHIA for O HI O....
    Last edited by Ron Hill; 01-24-2015 at 11:48 PM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hill View Post
    Hill is a pretty good name, but add an "E" where the "I" is and it sound like hell. Bottom Line, does anyone have a picture of an early Konig or Koenig crank plate that were were discussing. As I still feel I saw Koenig cast on a crank plate and that is why for many years I spelled Konig , Koenig.

    I mean, I know peop from OHIO who say AHIA for O HI O....
    Now from South Africa: Well, took a look yesterday at a couple dozen motors in a private collection (what a treasure chest!). One of the motors is in fact a `50s 250cc two-cylinder of the type we are discussing here. However, I did not take a photo specifically of the nameplate on the flywheel. (I was so occupied with the treasures, I plain forgot our discussion here, and I was on my way to make arrangements to buy a modified STV to join the local racing fraternity - will be inspecting that boat in some two hours).
    Will try and send photos of the Koenig motor tomorrow, as well as of the a.m. drawing which I found, plus data sheet off following page in my book Ulrich Huetten (Umlaut) "Schnelle Motoren Seziert und Frisiert" 4th Edition 1963. The author was a racing engineer for Shell, and really got around (as per my bosses at the time, who both raced two-stroke motorcycles and outboards). Unfortunately no ISBN number for the book.
    To resolve the name conundrum: it is Konig, but with the two dots above the o, making it the dreaded Umlaut.
    Rgds, Wolfgang

  4. #14
    Administrator Ron Hill's Avatar
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    Default When Marcel Belleville Moved Here From Canada

    Marcel's English was more FRENCH than English. Marcel pronounced Koenig/Konig as COO NIG....

    Marcel lived in Canada. He looked at a map and saw how many races were in California, and he just moved here. Crazy guy. He built Jimmy Hauenstein's 8 engine Unlimited in a building that I drew the plans for when I was a senior in high school..

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    [ATTACH]59171

    Koenig ad, showing correct spelling of name - o Umlaut. Source: somewhere on BRF

    Rgds, Wolfgang
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Hi all,
    attached pictures of the 50s Koenig from the treasure chest I visited yesterday. I am by no means a Koenig expert, but I think, this might be the type motor you are talking about. Most amazing of all, it can be turned over, rings appear to be free and has what appears to be an original Koenig lower unit[ATTACH]59172[ATTACH]59173[ATTACH]59174.
    Otherwise, motor seems to be complete. Trying to find the exhaust system. Motor may be for sale.
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  7. #17
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    I'm Surprised to see it has the early type cylinders that are of deflector design. This is a single carb B and I thought all of those were loop charge. In USA many motors were changed to loop charge. Erlay types of this motor had two Carbs, I think I have new a meg exhaust system for one of these. Steve

  8. #18
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    Hi Steve,
    yes, it does have deflector pistons in (it`s so basic, it seems like a close relative to the "paddle boat motor" discussed elsewhere herein). We`ll get more clarity tomorrow when I blow up and scan the sectional drawing. We are still trying to locate the exhaust system from the previous owner. If my memory serves me right, these motors had a "can-type" system. The square (rectangular) to round exhaust transition pieces look very restrictive (homemade?). We do not know what bore the motor has, but are loathe to take off the head. What price might achievable for a motor like this? Rgds, W

  9. #19
    Team Member smittythewelder's Avatar
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    That engine has been altered from original. You have half of an old motor and half of a newer one.

    The rear half of this engine is a class B (322cc in USA, but maybe bored to 350cc for racers elsewhere), and there was a 500cc Class C triple with three of those barrels stacked up (that's the motor in the sales brochure; note the open exhaust, no pipes at all).
    These were crossflow motors with deflector pistons, whereas the FB/FC/FD twins I was asking about at the start of this thread were loop-scavenged, and came along a few years later. The B and C deflector engines had one rotary valve and carburetor per cylinder, either 25mm slide-valve Bings, or Konigs own carbs, 25-28mm, I forget. By comparison, the FB/C/D twins had only one carb (Konig 32mm) feeding into the center section of the crankcase, controlled by two rotary valves above and below the carb entry.

    The engine in the photos is a conglomeration of older and newer versions: Old mid-'50s crossflow head and cylinders bolted uneasily (there are unused bolt holes half-hidden under those aluminum straps in the center) to an early-'60s FB/C/D crankcase and crankshaft, and carb. It would work fine (although those holddowns aren't the greatest), but I think it wouldn't have much collector value unless somebody needed those parts to complete other motors. Also, that one stub for an exhaust pipe is not original, though owners did add them later, and Konig added megaphones to this engine by the end of the production run.

    Once the FB/C/D series came out, I think those Konig deflectors were abandoned pretty quickly. Outfits like Quincy and Hubbell were getting better at modifying Mercurys, John Alden was building fast Hot Rods, and Tenney was selling converted Anzanis. The only one of these B Konig deflector motors I saw raced belonged to JDub's grandpa, Bill Myers; he ran it for a year before son John set him up with a looper.

    Oh, and I don't think any of the old deflector B's came on a tube-type of towerhousing, but were sold with a rather graceful-looking cast towerhousing that was used with the quiet, stock versions of the same engine. Possibly the last of the deflectors were sold with a tube towerhousing.

    Post a photo of the lower unit (should be 1:1 gearing) and we can give you a rough idea of the age.

    Since it's a mongrel, but a perfectly good motor, why not take it apart, clean it up, and run it? It's very remotely possible that you could buy or trade for the parts to build an original deflector B and/or an original FB. And while it isn't even close to being "factory-correct," as most restorers want, it is certainly a legitimate example of the kind of modifications that racers have always done.

    (EDIT) Paul Christner's Looper site has a lot of great photos of racemotor collections. Take a look at the "Bob Dunlap collection" for a late deflector B, supposedly as-delivered from Konig. It does have stacks, but unfortunately was only photographed from one side, so we can't count carburetors. But I can see from your photos, Wolfgang, that your motor has parts from different eras, and that when you un-bolt the cylinders you will find un-used holes for hold-down bolts. Also on Christner's site, look at "A Florida Collection" for a couple of shots of a Konig FC, which has a crankcase similar (not identical) to the FB case on your motor.

  10. #20
    Team Member ProHydroRacer's Avatar
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    My first race engine was the Konig FB 2 cylinders with one carb, two rotary valves, and 2 open megaphone exhaust pipes, the year 1966 or 1967. Converted later to a B loop-scavenged, and later still, to a FC with a hell of a lot of punch!

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