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Thread: Ques. on very old Konigs

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    Team Member smittythewelder's Avatar
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    Default Ques. on very old Konigs

    For Steve Litzell, or anyone who ever saw the insides of the old 2-cylinder Konig FB/FC/FD series. These engines had a two-piece crankshaft center section so that the two one-piece rotary valves could be slipped on (also the main bearing) before the two crankshaft halves were assembled into the middle section of the crankshaft, and held together with a bolt. Looked kind of marginal, but it worked. Even at the low (by today's standards) rpm that they ran, anything that could stand up to the pounding of the D Alky version could hardly be called a marginal design!!

    What I want to know is the engineering name for that joint in the middle of the crank. And anything else you care to tell me about it. Oh, and whether you know of any photos of one of those engines, disassembled.

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    These crank centers had teeth on the center and mating part to keep them from slipping. Bolt just held them together. These teeth were cut so they would take the load. In a alternating fire motor, they did not have the loads that a four cylinder had nor the twisting moments. For your information, The Quincy z type motors had the same principal only the centers were taper splines. The splines had twelve splines each so you could index them how you wanted, such as the three cylinder B and C they made. Steve

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    Team Member smittythewelder's Avatar
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    I know what the Konig crank looked like disassembled, and in fact assembled one using the special allen wrench that Konig made and sold for that task (still have it). But there is a name for that joint, which I was told and have forgotten.

    I never saw a Quincy Z apart or assembled. I assume the crank half with the female splines had an open, not a blind end, and that they broached those female splines (?). Did the crank halves bolt together like that Konig crank?

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    Quote Originally Posted by smittythewelder View Post
    I know what the Konig crank looked like disassembled, and in fact assembled one using the special allen wrench that Konig made and sold for that task (still have it). But there is a name for that joint, which I was told and have forgotten.

    I never saw a Quincy Z apart or assembled. I assume the crank half with the female splines had an open, not a blind end, and that they broached those female splines (?). Did the crank halves bolt together like that Konig crank?
    No Smitty, One half had taper female splines all the way through and other part was solid kinda like a axle shaft. When put together the hole was filled. These cranks were from 70's type RD Yamaha motors

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    Gentlemen,
    there was (still is) just one company in Germany which makes and used to make (e.g. post-war Mercedes 8il racecars, which had roller-bearing cranks, certain Koenig cranks also for the 500cc 4-cyl world-record motor for Rolf Goetze, aircraft engines - whole and components therefore, Porsche Carrera 4-cyl four cam motors) cranks with tapered splines perpendicular to the CL. Name of company is HIRTH. Hence the spline arrangement is called Hirth-Verzahnung. Yes, you need a special spanner to assemble the crank throws. The pitches of the male and female threads were slightly different (Differential-Gewinde), so that the lot cannot shake itself apart.
    I think I have a cross-sectional drawing of that 2-cyl rotary valve cross-flow Koenig block at home. Will have a look tonight, scan and post. Rgds, Wolfgang (engine builder apprenticeship in the mid-60s of the previous century)

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    Team Member smittythewelder's Avatar
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    So, no bolt, Steve? What then, pressed after being assembled into the case center-section?

    Wolfgang, I wouldn't have thought of the shallow radially-arrayed teeth comprising the Konig joint as "splines," but it appears we are talking about the same thing. So that is a Hirth-Verzahnung joint, yes? I'll try googling that, and see if I get any hits.

    (EDIT) Yep, that's it. First row of images on Google, and Wikipedia has an article. Thanks fellas. (Looks like a PITA for an amateur to machine).

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    Team Member Gene East's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfgang View Post
    Gentlemen,
    there was (still is) just one company in Germany which makes and used to make (e.g. post-war Mercedes 8il racecars, which had roller-bearing cranks, certain Koenig cranks also for the 500cc 4-cyl world-record motor for Rolf Goetze, aircraft engines - whole and components therefore, Porsche Carrera 4-cyl four cam motors) cranks with tapered splines perpendicular to the CL. Name of company is HIRTH. Hence the spline arrangement is called Hirth-Verzahnung. Yes, you need a special spanner to assemble the crank throws. The pitches of the male and female threads were slightly different (Differential-Gewinde), so that the lot cannot shake itself apart.
    I think I have a cross-sectional drawing of that 2-cyl rotary valve cross-flow Koenig block at home. Will have a look tonight, scan and post. Rgds, Wolfgang (engine builder apprenticeship in the mid-60s of the previous century)
    Konig V Koenig? I have maintained for over 50 years that I saw the name Koenig cast on the crank plate of the first German outboard I ever saw. I've basically been told all these years I was FOS.

    Someone please tell me was the name ever spelled with an e?? I understand umlat. Let's not go there.

    If I am FOS, I'm sure someone has some castor oil available.

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    Administrator Ron Hill's Avatar
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    Default I'm The World's Worst Speller, But

    Quote Originally Posted by Gene East View Post
    Konig V Koenig? I have maintained for over 50 years that I saw the name Koenig cast on the crank plate of the first German outboard I ever saw. I've basically been told all these years I was FOS.

    Someone please tell me was the name ever spelled with an e?? I understand umlat. Let's not go there.

    If I am FOS, I'm sure someone has some castor oil available.
    I wasn't much of a student as a kid, I spelled "EGG", "AEG". My mom could spell ever work in the dictionary, upside down and backward. Then, as a teacher for 38 years, I saw every word in the entire world spelled wrong some many times, I often thought I was wrong.

    To this day I spell Koenig...then I check via Google, and it shows Konig. The first Koenigs/Konigs I ever saw were Marcel Bellville's when he moved to California from Canada.

    I think the crank plates said "KOENIG". Somewhere I have Marcel's phone number. FYI: Marcel's daughter graduatd FSU and is now a Captain for Delta Airlines.

    I should add: I never was much of a student....when you could drin and chase women, why would you study?

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    In German, Koenig is spell Koning (but with an umlaut over the 'O').

    Jeff
    "We live at the bottom of an ocean of air." - General Marvage Slatington

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    Smitty, Gene, Ron and Jeff, First off thanks to Wolfgang on the name that I forgot. Smitty, Yes the crank centers are just pressed together. Gene and Ron, The Name Konig has two umlats over the O giving it a er sound such as Ker-Nig. The name means King. The name Koenig is different and pronounced like we say Konig. These two name Konig and Koenig are kinda Like Smith and Smyth. Dieters last name was Konig, and if parts were marked wrong that was because of someone at the manufacturing place that misspelled it. Also the name Koenig is used in different areas for Germany as there are different dialects there. Jeff you are are off as the name Koning has a ing sound and is totally wrong. Your way of saying that is Kon- ing. This name to was used to name Konig motors by Americans mostly from the MidWest, Took Me several years to Get Ed Thirlby to say it like Americans do with Konig. But when the Konny motors came about you could not understand the difference between the two when he said it. His son Mike however, I have taught him to say Ker-nig for The German motor and Konny for the Czech motor. Anouther thing to is as people moved here from Europe, they either changed the way to say their last name by the spelling or the easy way to make the sound. Hell it took a whole Bottle of Opshlaw (SP) and Krage teaching me to say that word. That's another good name, Krage, Some say it like Craig with sometime a a at the end, Craiga, Others say it like Crage, The way Hans said it was Kra like craw and then ga, sounds like Duh with a G. Krage. Steve

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