Thread: Jackie Wilson..

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    Burgess/Evinrude F1 V8 Lars Strom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie wilson View Post
    Why then did OMC always claim not to have a 2 liter motor---when they clearly did.

    .
    Well..As an OMC dealer I can clearly see/ understand the OMC way of thinking

    OMC never made a 2 liter production V-6..

    The first 200 hp production V-6 1976 was 2.4 liter..cross flow design
    OMC used that block for OZ racing around the same time..

    Next generation production V-6 loopers was 2,7 and 3.0 liter..
    Well...that block was to heavy for OZ racing..

    Instead of making a special race 2 liter V-6 ON engine , OMC stepped up and made the first V-8 race engine..and followed up with a production V-8.
    I think that was the right thing to do..

    See..Merc started with the 3,4 liter OZ V-6.. T-4 ..(First race Bristol 79)..
    A few years later the production 3.4 liter V-6 came...That engine was never a success and Merc pulled the plug..

    Mercs 2 liter production engine was good for racing to and it made sense to race the 2 liter class with that powerhead..
    Well..Merc stopped making the production 2 liter engine 10-15 years ago..
    F1 today is 2,5 liter and the new Optimax SST 200 is 2,5 liter..
    See..not even Merc want to build a "race only".. 2 liter....


    Picture of the production 3.4 liter Merc 275/300hp
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    Last edited by Lars Strom; 05-26-2011 at 07:44 PM. Reason: spelling
    Lars Strom

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    Check my own racing history at BRF...http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forum...ead.php?t=6727

    My racing web site SVERA.se....http://svera.se/blogg/paris-6-hours/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Strom View Post
    Well..As an OMC dealer I can clearly see/ understand the OMC way of thinking

    OMC never made a 2 liter production V-6..

    The first 200 hp production V-6 1976 was 2.4 liter..cross flow design
    OMC used that block for OZ racing around the same time..

    Next generation production V-6 loopers was 2,7 and 3.0 liter..
    Well...that block was to heavy for OZ racing..

    Instead of making a special race 2 liter V-6 ON engine , OMC stepped up and made the first V-8 race engine..and followed up with a production V-8.
    I think that was the right thing to do..

    See..Merc started with the 3,4 liter OZ V-6.. T-4 ..(First race Bristol 79)..
    A few years later the production 3.4 liter V-6 came...That engine was never a success and Merc pulled the plug..

    Mercs 2 liter production engine was good for racing to and it made sense to race the 2 liter class with that powerhead..
    Well..Merc stopped making the production 2 liter engine 10-15 years ago..
    F1 today is 2,5 liter and the new Optimax SST 200 is 2,5 liter..
    See..not even Merc want to build a "race only".. 2 liter....


    Picture of the production 3.4 liter Merc 275/300hp
    Ok Lasse ----i didn't realize that every OMC motor Cees and co brought to a FONDA race was a purpose built one off race motor !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Whilst the 2 liter was my favourite class as opposed to 2.4----2.5----3.0 3.5-----4.00 liters all i wanted was a FORMULA to race to------------not an open ended unlimited-----unruled class of racing where there was no control.

    But if the factories could not agree on a formula and bear in mind they had a lot of clout in the UIM and ALL the say in APBA-------what bloody chance did we have .

    Mercury obviously did not do it all right, but i think they were closer to selling a product that was raced and bore a smidgin of relationship to a production motor--------------Don't recollect many 3 or 4 stack rotaries going on sale--------and do you really want to bring the V8 into the picture.

    Mercury are still churning out product----------which is more than can be said of OMC.
    They will have to change tack and stop holding their noses high 'cos the Japs will one day do a pearl harbour on them-----------they have had 40 years to beat 'em or join 'em and have pussyfooted round the edge of the coming armageddon for far too long.

    You don't have to be Physic to see what's coming ----------------Just look at the bike and car industry------------the television industry, camera and electronics, Train travel and a thousand other things. For sure the US still builds the Trucks and heavy agricultural machinery, Yes John Deere, Ford and Harley D are still there ------but who decides for how long----------EAST or WEST ??????

    Aw sh-t-----here i go again----------just the ramblings of an 80 year old-----will get back on track later-----------but don't any joker point out that i am not "politically correct"------------I never have been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie wilson View Post
    Ok Lasse ----i didn't realize that every OMC motor Cees and co brought to a FONDA race was a purpose built one off race motor !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Whilst the 2 liter was my favourite class as opposed to 2.4----2.5----3.0 3.5-----4.00 liters all i wanted was a FORMULA to race to------------not an open ended unlimited-----unruled class of racing where there was no control.

    But if the factories could not agree on a formula and bear in mind they had a lot of clout in the UIM and ALL the say in APBA-------what bloody chance did we have .

    Mercury obviously did not do it all right, but i think they were closer to selling a product that was raced and bore a smidgin of relationship to a production motor--------------Don't recollect many 3 or 4 stack rotaries going on sale--------and do you really want to bring the V8 into the picture.

    Mercury are still churning out product----------which is more than can be said of OMC.
    They will have to change tack and stop holding their noses high 'cos the Japs will one day do a pearl harbour on them-----------they have had 40 years to beat 'em or join 'em and have pussyfooted round the edge of the coming armageddon for far too long.

    You don't have to be Physic to see what's coming ----------------Just look at the bike and car industry------------the television industry, camera and electronics, Train travel and a thousand other things. For sure the US still builds the Trucks and heavy agricultural machinery, Yes John Deere, Ford and Harley D are still there ------but who decides for how long----------EAST or WEST ??????

    Aw sh-t-----here i go again----------just the ramblings of an 80 year old-----will get back on track later-----------but don't any joker point out that i am not "politically correct"------------I never have been.
    Just re-read the last part of your post lasse-------Why on earth would any Manufacturer want to build a race motor ??????? Production racing was the only way to go and still is----Put "RACE" in front of anything and cost trebles--spares out of sight ----and the whole thing becomes untenable . I do believe racing improves the breed-------finds the weak spots etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Strom View Post
    Maybe Rotary John can found a way to let us hear that sound again..

    Pretty sure this is Paris 6 hours 1974.
    Only race a know of that the race number must be white on black background..
    That was a "Mr. Bloody Mary" role that year..

    His real name was Mr. Bladinaire ..The Officer of the Day..he spoke French only.
    He did not care if you understood him or not..
    Mr. Bladinaire was also the man stopping the rotaries in Paris..
    Well..I am pretty sure some Merc people helped him....


    Click here for Rotary Johns thread about the Rotary engine..
    Very good and interesting reading.

    Paris 6 hours is post #11

    http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forum...ead.php?t=8780
    Lasse -----You may not know it-but MSR. Bladnaire kept the Paris 6 hours going for years after it should have been stopped . The maritime people hated it and had tried every trick in the book to stop it. He fought off attempts by the gendarmes --river police -------cafe owners ----beaurocrats-----and all manner of things and people who wanted it stopped.

    You were racing in France Lasse--------French is spoken there-----if you didn't understand it ----get a translator------Bladinaiire DID speak a little English -------but only when it suited him. To me -he was one of the all time stalwarts of powerboating and the godfather of the Paris 6 hrs.

    C'mon Lasse --time to get real-----OMC and MERCURY ALWAYS protested each other-were always trying to get one up. They stole each others personell and ideas, and all things between. There never was much loyalty in either camp 'cept for maybe you -me and R/J.

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    Default Jackie Wilson..

    I love reading all this stuff... And, I have a comment and a question.

    I was told by a very reliable source that OMC did build a good 2 liter V-6 (late '70's and had it running well enough where they thought they could beat the V-6 ON Mercs. They still got beat. the remaining parts were boats, props and drivers. What do you guys think the problem was? If you want, I can get more information on the timeframe and location of the race/s.

    Jackie, Why didn't the Cosworth type project take off?? I think it could have worked. Someone builds a sterndrive and hooks it up to automotive racing engine that has about + hp 400 HPwith lots of torque and turns 10,000 RPM. It seems to me that this would open the door to the automotive monies that are being spend in lots of circuits world wide. Yes... I've seen the one recently on the Youtube.
    This way, maybe if could be a real formula program and even incorporate a lease program from the engine manufactuers.Even sealed engines.

    Just a thought as I try get my butt to sleep..

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    Lee:
    I've been told Don Henrich (OMC) was one of the best porp men of the time. Boats however were a different story. OMC was running Scotti's made in early '70. They were built for V-4 power. Scotti was killed in '74 and OMC didn't have a sourse for new boats. James Beard, Cougar, built a couple and Jimbo/ Bob Nagoaty built a couple for themselves, but that was it. Meanwhile HP kept going up. I've said this before, but I believe the biggest difference was preperation. I've been told Merc would spend weeks at Lake X setting up their race boat for events. I know Siebold spent weeks in St. Louis getting ready for his race there. OMC would show up a day or 2 prior to a race, test a few props and go race. The same fuel tank was used for 6hr endurance races as was used for 20 min sprint races. The most pre race testing done with the rotaries was 10 hrs endurance running prior to the first 9 hr Parker. I really believe that was the difference between the 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by X-driver View Post
    John,

    Is there any youtube videos with sound of a rotary running? I really enjoy listening to your stories and info.

    SCT
    I don't know of any flim of the rotaries (no video camaras at that time) other than a commercial that was shot with Johnie Sanders. I'm afraid most of the rotaries have been disposed of. There are 2 in a private collection, only one has a gearcase,but they are secret and will never see the light of day again. I tried to get BRP to let me borrow one for OFF last year, but after initial approval, the powers to be put a kabash on it. Since that time I'm told BRP has ordered the disposal of all the old OMC stuff. There are several of Mazda rotaries .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEOHn7rspsk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Strom View Post
    Maybe Rotary John can found a way to let us hear that sound again..

    Pretty sure this is Paris 6 hours 1974.
    Only race a know of that the race number must be white on black background..
    That was a "Mr. Bloody Mary" role that year..

    His real name was Mr. Bladinaire ..The Officer of the Day..he spoke French only.
    He did not care if you understood him or not..
    Mr. Bladinaire was also the man stopping the rotaries in Paris..
    Well..I am pretty sure some Merc people helped him....


    Click here for Rotary Johns thread about the Rotary engine..
    Very good and interesting reading.

    Paris 6 hours is post #11

    http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forum...ead.php?t=8780
    The rotary picture is indeed Paris '74; Barry Woods on the boat. I don't know hat the other picture is. I don't think there were pickel forks in '74 on outboards, certainly not OMC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Sutter View Post
    I love reading all this stuff... And, I have a comment and a question.

    I was told by a very reliable source that OMC did build a good 2 liter V-6 (late '70's and had it running well enough where they thought they could beat the V-6 ON Mercs. They still got beat. the remaining parts were boats, props and drivers. What do you guys think the problem was? If you want, I can get more information on the timeframe and location of the race/s.

    Jackie, Why didn't the Cosworth type project take off?? I think it could have worked. Someone builds a sterndrive and hooks it up to automotive racing engine that has about + hp 400 HPwith lots of torque and turns 10,000 RPM. It seems to me that this would open the door to the automotive monies that are being spend in lots of circuits world wide. Yes... I've seen the one recently on the Youtube.
    This way, maybe if could be a real formula program and even incorporate a lease program from the engine manufactuers.Even sealed engines.

    Just a thought as I try get my butt to sleep..
    Hiya Lee, i would lay money on the fact OMC had a very good 2 liter motor, even they wouldn't have been crazy enough to go the Koenig route-------one offs whenever they wanted to-----was enough to scare the pants off Mercury every time they showed with one--was always competitive till it broke---which was quite often-------it's cobblers to state they never had a 2 liter.

    The project was my own idea along with Duckworth---when you think that a Keith Black engine was $12,500---$15,000 and the Cosworth was £25,000 as a straight sale from the factory-----that was a big difference in those days. The big factor being ---the cossie would run 24 competition hrs non stop @10,000 RPM--------i used 8,500 all the time.

    Duckworth did bring a fair bit of trick stuff to the project like the centrifugal clutch and the quill drive shaft which made it a beautiful package to work on.

    Cosworth and Ilmor do a lease program and Ilmor have their very own drive unit-don't know how it's turning out but life is very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Sutter View Post
    Jackie, Why didn't the Cosworth type project take off?? I think it could have worked. Someone builds a sterndrive and hooks it up to automotive racing engine that has about + hp 400 HPwith lots of torque and turns 10,000 RPM. It seems to me that this would open the door to the automotive monies that are being spend in lots of circuits world wide. Yes... I've seen the one recently on the Youtube.
    This way, maybe if could be a real formula program and even incorporate a lease program from the engine manufactuers.Even sealed engines.
    ..
    Lee:

    I presume this is what you are referring to.......?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4buTn...layer_embedded

    Looks like a great concept........... and lends itself to a sealed Formula program.
    OBSOLETE AND PROUD OF IT

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