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Thread: ?? About Wings.

  1. #21
    Team Member Rick Connolly's Avatar
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    Less....

  2. #22
    Sam Cullis Mark75H's Avatar
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    Why do you think the Swtizer brothers don't know how many boats they made?
    Since 1925, about 150 different racing outboards have been made.


  3. #23
    Team Member Rick Connolly's Avatar
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    When I talked to Bob he indicated he wasn't totally sure of the exact count. I think Bob was roughly/figuratively quoted some place and it became gospel. Remember as a small business owner your trying to crank stuff out the door....let a lone remember what you built 40 + years ago. I have a small fiberglass shop and blow stuff out of molds all day long. A lot of stuff I have a rough idea about, but unless I kept records I wouldn't know for sure.

    Anyway I just think it was less than 40. I could be wrong just telling you what I think. Just like rear ends everybody has one and a opinion.....

  4. #24
    Sam Cullis Mark75H's Avatar
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    It is quite possible. Some people have remarkable memories and others can't remember what they had for breakfast. Most of us fall somewhere in between, I have no clue where those guys fit in.

    So you think there may have been as few as 50 or 55 Wings total?

    I am not certain the number of wooden Wings is accurate
    Since 1925, about 150 different racing outboards have been made.


  5. #25
    Able to break anything T2x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark75H View Post
    It is quite possible. Some people have remarkable memories and others can't remember what they had for breakfast. Most of us fall somewhere in between, I have no clue where those guys fit in.

    So you think there may have been as few as 50 or 55 Wings total?

    I am not certain the number of wooden Wings is accurate
    Based only on pictures that I have seen I estimate the number of Wood wings at 5 (I may be forgetting one). 1. The original 2. Miss Bonadettes, 3. the ugly "V" wing, 4. Miss Skyway, 5. the "Gulfwind Marine" hull which I believe is the boat "built especially for Carl K." referred to by Dave Switzer in Ron Poli's article...and easily the most attractive looking version. That final hull was destroyed (per Dave Craig when we spoke last year at the Old Timer's reunion) when Carl ordered Dave to take it up to max speed at the Lake and turn it as hard and fast as he could resulting in a demolishing barrel roll. The purpose of this, apparently, was to see if the wing design could turn anywhere near as well as the brand new tunnel hulls coming over from Europe.

    In addition I personally saw two more "mystery" wooden wings..... 1. The "Miss Subway" owned by a guy out of Chicago who apparently had a bone to pick with the Switzer brothers and made an uncompetitive copy painted red with gold tinted canopies..and 2. An all white wooden wing with no cowlings forward of the engines (completely flat deck) and a cockpit in the center. It was reported to be the "Miss Skyway" with extensive modifications . Odell Lewis drove this boat(The Miss Skyway was not at the race) at the '66 Orange Bowl Regatta for only a few laps before Hank Bowman's death. The race was postponed a day and Carl pulled all of the Mercury Factory entries out of the race in respect for Hank. I never saw that white hull again nor did the "Skyway" ever race again to my knowledge. I will bring this topic up with Dave and Odell at the O.F.F. meeting in October and try to figure it out for once and for all. Perhaps Steve Sirois and Richie Powers can help as they will be there as well.
    Bottom line I think there were 5 Switzers and one "Subway" copy.

    As far as the glass 18's. I went to Fond Du Lac and Oshkosh in the mid 60's and saw the ware house. There were about a dozen 18's inside...... If you look at all of the 18's that actually raced, I would have to say that Rick Connolly is probably correct..... 40 18' wings seems to be a very high number especially given how few of them are still around versus the 20 footer which was , in fact, less common at the races. My revised guess is there were probably 45 wings made in total. 5 Wood, 20 18's and 20 20' hulls....(approximately)

    T2x
    OBSOLETE AND PROUD OF IT

  6. #26
    - Skoontz's Avatar
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    It is quite possible. Some people have remarkable memories and others can't remember what they had for breakfast. Most of us fall somewhere in between, I have no clue where those guys fit in.

    So you think there may have been as few as 50 or 55 Wings total?

    I am not certain the number of wooden Wings is accurate



    Something to add about the Switzers, Bobby in particular. He could sell an eskimo ice cubes. A conversation he was having with someone about one of his boats when asked about the engine on the back....

    Oh sure this engine is 140HP and you really don't need any more than that. It used Holley-Webber carburetors and is very efficient. H/W carbs were sold for desert applications on VW motors, and not for 140HP Mercs. I remember that as if it were yesterday, Bobby was smooth as smooth could be. He was usually stretching his stats ( nothing personal there, it is who he is) and always the Switzer salesman. David was the quiet, reserved kind of guy who is sharp as a tack. Russ Hill reminds me very much of David, not in appearance, David was a small guy and Russ could be a retired pro basketball player.

    Taking an educated guess, knowing the Switzers, I'm betting the boat count
    is closer to what Rick has posted.
    Bill Schwab
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  7. #27
    Administrator Ron Hill's Avatar
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    Default Can't We Get An E-Mail to Bobby???

    I've been reading here....I talk to Rick now and then...In fact I found him one of his wings...BUT Sam Cullis AIN'T never been one to say something without facts to back it up...

    In the EARLY days....Mercury tested and tested and Carl spent money with Switzer. Part of the reason Carl "LOST" Mercury was spending "TOO MUCH" on R and D and racing...As far as 18 footers....I know OMC tried like hell to replace the T40 that Bobby Massey had and that is why they ended up "BORROWING" Ernie's 69 boat for Parker...

    The Switzers were talking a new boat then, but the new boat didn't come out until about 1970...

    Kitson, Mertens, Schoonover....Ernie...I'd be inclined to think less that 20 were 18 foot glass winges built..
    Last edited by Ron Hill; 06-18-2009 at 10:10 AM.

  8. #28
    Team Member Rick Connolly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skoontz View Post
    It is quite possible. Some people have remarkable memories and others can't remember what they had for breakfast. Most of us fall somewhere in between, I have no clue where those guys fit in.

    So you think there may have been as few as 50 or 55 Wings total?

    I am not certain the number of wooden Wings is accurate



    Something to add about the Switzers, Bobby in particular. He could sell an eskimo ice cubes. A conversation he was having with someone about one of his boats when asked about the engine on the back....

    Oh sure this engine is 140HP and you really don't need any more than that. It used Holley-Webber carburetors and is very efficient. H/W carbs were sold for desert applications on VW motors, and not for 140HP Mercs. I remember that as if it were yesterday, Bobby was smooth as smooth could be. He was usually stretching his stats ( nothing personal there, it is who he is) and always the Switzer salesman. David was the quiet, reserved kind of guy who is sharp as a tack. Russ Hill reminds me very much of David, not in appearance, David was a small guy and Russ could be a retired pro basketball player.

    Taking an educated guess, knowing the Switzers, I'm betting the boat count
    is closer to what Rick has posted.
    Good story..... Got to do what it takes to sell product......yup this baby will do 160 MPH no problem with a VW motor...

    I agree with Rich from little I can piece together there appears to be 5~6 wood Switzer wings made. That is the rough number the Switzers had said as well. I keep hoping one might have survived....but I don't think that is the case. Heard one rumor on was sitting in a museum not on display back east....but that is a reach.

    A few more 20's seem to have survied than 18's. I think paritally that was due to the fact they were raced hard, wrecked, soon became out dated and Mercury is reported to have destroyed some in their fleet. One was the Miss Skyway.

    In the real world of things it doesn't really matter....fun to speculate. I backed in to trying to figure out what might still be out there. There are still a few more to be found I'm sure.

  9. #29
    Administrator Ron Hill's Avatar
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    Default Rod Zapf Did Plenty...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker Hill View Post
    My understanding is that the Hills. Ron and Russ Sr. took delivery of the Desilva wing unfinished. Ron and my grandfather finished the wing with a few minor design mods and the rest is history! It was the first outboard powered boat to lead The Parker 9 Hour Enduro!! all was well until the counter rotating engine broke a crank! this problem plagued OMC 115 xs power until the advent of the flex flywheel! I am sure that Sam can elaborate.

    Sam, didn't the Switzers have a stirrup of sorts where the driver used his foot to control the wing angle and didn't a driver or two become pretty injured due to this apparatus?

    BUNKER:

    The real story on the second DeSilva Wing was that Mac McCune had given DeSilva a grand deposit to build a wing...Jack Leek flew out from Waukegan and Mac flew from Denver and we all met at DeSilva. The "Wing" was just that a WING...Mac and Leek looked at it and DECLARED IT NO GOOD....and basically left DeSilva's shop saying they could keep the $1,000 DEPOSIT.

    Grandpa Hill (My dad) wasn't one to listen to Jack Leek, considering some 15 years earlier, Jack Leek was writing him letters asking him how to "HOP UP" motors...He also liked "The Kids" (Bill and Ralph DeSilva), so he asked Ralph what they wanted for the boat...as is? They said, "1,000 would make us happy."

    Well, we had the 18" DeSilva runabout that Fred Miller had blow the bottom out of at Parker, I had helped repair the boat at DeSilva's and raced it in COBRA, but I'd sold it for $1,000 and kept the trailer....and the motors...

    We went home and got the trailer, Jimbo and his dad happened to be at the house picking up one of Jimbo's motors...Jimbo's dad said, "He'd go half on the DeSilva...and wrote my dad a check for $500 on the spot...

    We went back to DeSilva's and picked up the boat and paid them $1,000.

    Rod Zapf had just left the Navy to fly for TWA and had time to burn. We were hanging out and such, he told the OLD MAN he'd help...Rod worked with my dad for about 30 days straight. They built cowlings both front and rear, my dad painted the red and ROD painted every black and white check....Though it seems maybe Phil Nichols may have given us advice on the checkers...

    I told Leek we had the boat "Totally Tits" and I needed some motors for Parker...I had added aluminum angles for air traps on the runners and sponsons...(Like the Berghauers had on their Sid Crafts). We tested the boat on a rainy day at Elsinore with the two engine (89.9 Inchers) off the 18 foot DeSilva...I saw 85 on your DAD's Keller......as it only went to 85 but it wrapped around to where I felt it was going over 90 MPH...(Nobody went 90 with two 89.9 inchers)...

    We headed to Parker, where Leek gave us two new engines... I remember clearly, warming them up and slowly heading up to the dam and I made a wide "WING TURN" and then I got on the gas.....There may have been ten to fifteen boats on the river testing, big mother flat bottoms and all....I came whistling down past the pits at 110 on OMC's Keller....Actually, maybe 107...OMC's fastest twin was going 91 MPH at the time...Just as I started to back her down I broke a crank....

    We replaced the motor and Freddy Hauenstein took her for a ride...It looked like a little D Alky Hydro....."PRANCING" down the river...

    Everyone saw it and realized it didn't "HOP" like a Switzer, it just went around the corner and hauled ***..

    We lead Parker that year, first outboard to every lead, and Ann Strang "sold" (Offered it to Carl and he took the offer)... the boat to Carl for $8,000, that same day........When Jack Leek heard that Mac McConnell and Russ were selling the boat to Mercury, he bought it...Jimbo drove the wing the next year, when I drove the Hallett...

    That's the rest of the story!
    Last edited by Ron Hill; 06-18-2009 at 10:09 AM.

  10. #30
    Team Member Rick Connolly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hill View Post
    I've been reading here....I talk to Rick now and then.....In fact I found him one of his wings
    Yes you did...thanks...I don't care what anyone else says about you your alright

    Another thing about the 18's was once Mercury bought the rights to the molds Mercury was their only customer. Other folks were knocking on Switzers door wanting one, but they couldn't sell them. So.....Switzer did not have a real big incentive to sell them especially if the price was locked in so the profit wasn't that high. I think that was a partial driver behind developing the 20 footer.

    I have the same issue with my business a customer owns the mold I built.......folks want a part out of it, but I can't sell to anyone else.

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