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Thread: Konig History

  1. #31
    BoatRacingFacts VIP John Schubert T*A*R*T's Avatar
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    Default Sliding pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by fred tyson View Post
    The sliding throttle setup was the brainchild of Mister Tom Hardin, he made it for Mal originally for the 500cc Konig they had, said Mal could not hold the pipes up on it, so he designed that set up, ran them myself , got them from Mister Hardin and used the Konig throttle, then later changed to the Harrison Freon slide units, that was ahoot to use , had to remember which switch brought the pipes up to 1/2 and which was all the way up.
    Not to create any real controversy here, but Chuck & Lou Simon had sliding pipes as early as 1967 that I recall racing against Chuck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Oil Racing Team View Post
    There might be some more Eric, but this is the one I think of. I've posted a lot of Konig stuff here and there, but I had been planning on putting pics here, except I keep sidetracking. Not that it's bad to add to the subject on current threads, but it's easy to get lost when you try to go back for a second look.
    Hi there,
    I am new to this so hopefully this will end up somewhere useful. I am writing a book about the late, great Kim Newcombe. Kim, a fellow Kiwi, came second in the 1973 world 500cc motorcycle GP championship - sadly posthumously. Kim built his Konig powered bike in the factory with Dieter's help.
    It was raced as a Konig. It would be great if I could ask a few questions and see if anyone can give me the answers I need. Naturally the battles between Quincy and Konig are a significant part of the book.
    For example I would like to know when proper expansion chambers and stingers were first used on Konigs and if they were the first to use them on outboards.
    I have two books that have appeared in the States - John Britten (the story of the Britten motorcycles) and One Good Run (the story of Burt Munro - subject of the film "The World's Fastest Indian")
    Any help you can give would be much appreciated.
    PS I intend writing a book soon on the history of oor own Masport Cup. We have been building hydros down here for as long as the reat of the world.
    Cheers
    Tim Hanna

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    Sam Cullis Mark75H's Avatar
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    Tim, Dieter was one of the early users of expansion chambers and stingers, but not the first. As best as I can tell, Carniti's V-4 500cc racer was the first racing outboard to come from the factory with expansion chambers ... but fewer than 10 were made.

    We have discussed what year expansion chambers first appeared on Konigs in the past here on BRF. I'll see if I can find it ... my guess would be around 1961. Dieter did not go to Walter Kaaden's full scheme including rotary valve induction until later.
    Since 1925, about 150 different racing outboards have been made.


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    Smile Konig

    Thanks Sam, that is really instructive.
    I have written a little about Kaaden but there are a number of points that remain obscure. For example when did Kaaden's work become public knowledge and did German companies have some sort of jump on the rest. I realise that the defection by Degner more or less gave the technology to the world via the Japanese motorcycle industry. You mention that Dieter did not adopt the full Kaaden scheme until after 1961 - do you know when and which engine?
    I visited the Konig factory a couple of years ago with Peter Konig and saw lots of bits and pieces, including a dozen or so clip on handle bars sitting on Kim Newcombe's bench. That brought a lump to the throat I can tell you.
    There is a guy in the UK making a number of new 500 4's with chinese castings, East European cranks etc.
    Do you know of any for sale over your side of the ditch. My good mate Rod Tingate, who was a friend of Kim's and a fellow GP rider, has built the most beautiful replica bike and would like to build some more.
    I really appreciate your help.
    All the best
    Tim Hanna

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark75H View Post
    Tim, Dieter was one of the early users of expansion chambers and stingers, but not the first. As best as I can tell, Carniti's V-4 500cc racer was the first racing outboard to come from the factory with expansion chambers ... but fewer than 10 were made.

    We have discussed what year expansion chambers first appeared on Konigs in the past here on BRF. I'll see if I can find it ... my guess would be around 1961. Dieter did not go to Walter Kaaden's full scheme including rotary valve induction until later.

  5. #35
    Team Member Master Oil Racing Team's Avatar
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    Tim...Dieter told me about Kim and his accident at Silverstone during my first trip to the factory. Dieter was a full throttle...don't look back...forward thinking speed freak back then. In fact, he was like that always. Furiously trying to accomplish something that had either crossed his mind, or either trying to bring the thought to completion. When I showed up at his door unannounced in 1975 he gave me a whirlwind tour. Then he put me to work helping him get a speedway bike ready for testing in a few days.

    The reason I bring this up is because I think anyone who had ever worked with Dieter knew this about him. I think it was probably the same way with Kim. Dieter Konig was afire with innovations, speed and accomplished drivers. I could tell when I talked with him about Kim that he was terribly sorry. He told me that during the race another driver spilled in the same corner that Kim did, but there were hay bales there this time and the driver walked away.

    I have a tape that I did in Dieter's office in 1975. He talked about the exhaust and his first experiments with megaphones. I remember he told me he accidentally discovered the scavenging effects of the pipes when he ran a tube to get the fumes out of his test room. He noticed the horsepower increase. Dieter showed me the page in his journal when he wrote down the note. I made a corressponding note in my journal when I saw what he had recorded. I drew a picture and if I remember correcty wrote "auspoof". I don't know if I have any info that will help you at all, but I will try to put the taped interview back together and see what info I can find.
    Last edited by Master Oil Racing Team; 07-24-2010 at 01:36 PM. Reason: correction



  6. #36
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    Default more info on the Konig GP Bike is available

    Tim Hanna:

    FYI

    Hans Krage, who was the long time Konig "factory" hydro driver, and also a very close friend of Dieter's, has a son named Peer Krage. Peer is a member on BRF and you can send him a PrivateMessage by accessing his name under the members list. Just click on "members list" at the top of the page and then look under "P" as in Peer Krage. You can then click on his name to send him a private message.

    The reason you would want to contact him is he has a DVD made with the cooperation of Kim's widow. The DVD shows the development of the GP bike, both in the Konig factory and also a numerous tracks in Europe where it was raced, The DVD is about 30 minutes long and very well done. Peer was here in the US last fall at the World Championship boat races, visiting with Ralph Donald, who was a very close friend of his father. Peer showed the DVD at Ralph's home, and my wife and I along with Mike Ward and his wife (Mike is the UK Yamato dealer if you do not know him) had the pleasure of viewing it and it was very interesting. Perhaps Peer could arrange for you to have a copy of this very historic commentary/documentary on the development and racing of this bike, if you do not already have one or are not aware of it.

    In addition to the GP bikes built at the Konig factory, there were also several BMW bikes built with Konig engines. These were street legal bikes. I believe they were powered by 350CC engines although I am not absolutely sure about that. Peer acquired one of those bikes several years ago and has completely restored it. It is the only bike that he knows of that is powered by Konig that still exists.

    If you are not able to contact him let me know and perhaps I can be of further assistance in getting you two in touch.

  7. #37
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    Default Expansion Chambers

    I do not know when the first expansion chambers came out in Europe, but I built the first expansion chambers run on a 500 and 700 Konig in the U.S. I got the idea from a go cart engine builder in Kansas City and made them in 1969. At the time, all C and D konigs were running the "tin can" exhaust. I ran them at the Championships in Alexandria that year and Dieter looked at them there. The next year he came out with a better set for the big motors and they have evolved from there.

    Rex Hall
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    Default first expansion chambers on Konigs

    Evidently Dieter was very aware of the performance gains to be had with expansion chamber type exhaust versus open pipe or megaphone type, much earlier than the time frame he made them available with 500 and 700 engines as Rex has posted about.

    In a thread entitled "Konig Pipe Stingers" by Jeff Lytle, there is a picture of a brochure showing a 1961 FA Konig that is equipped with expansion chambers. Also Mike Ward, who has been a UIM observer at several WC races here and in Europe, and is the UK Yamato dealer, has some pictures taken at a 1964 European Championship of engines equipped with expansion chamber exhaust. He did not say whether they were Konig's or not.

    I seem to remember that Homer Kincaid, who I believe won a "C" Hydro National Championship at DePue in the latter 1960's, was using the first set of "ZAK" pipes that Harry made. These differed from the later cast manifold type in that they were the first set Harry made and were completely fabricated by welding, i.e. no cast manifolds. This was definately prior to 1968, as I had gone to the Nationals in 1967 to look at equipment as I was planning on getting back into racing and wanted to see what was being used since I had not been racing for some time prior.

  9. #39
    Sam Cullis Mark75H's Avatar
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    I think Bill Van has it right, Dieter put expansion chambers on the small motors in '61.

    The first 500cc opposed VC motors were piston port intake, I'm pretty sure the year was 1966 (1965 if I am wrong); being replaced by the rotary valve intake in '67, but this motor was not APBA legal until '68 so we did not see them right away over here.

    The VC motors seem to have been simultaneously released with regular expansion chambers and sound compliant "can" exhaust
    Since 1925, about 150 different racing outboards have been made.

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    Default more on expansion chambers on 500/700 Konigs

    If you access Peer Krage's name in the members list and then go to posts he has made, you will find pictures of both the GP bikes mentioned earlier and also a short story and pictures of the BMW/Konig he restored.

    I think it is very evident that he knew about expansion chambers and the advantages of same in the early 60's at least. It would be interesting to know why he did not equip the motors being sent to the US with them until much later. The early expansion chamber/pipe setups were certainly a problem insofar as keeping them on the engine, i.e. broken brackets, difficulty with the sliding mechanism, and perhaps that had something to do with it. Also he did not equip the motors with them (4 cyl/opposed/rotary valve type) until after Harry ZAK had made the first sets of his design for Homer Kincaid, Wayne Baldwin, Ray Hardy, Billy Kurps, John Winzler, and others, and he (Dieter)then became aware of the fact that the "tin can" equipped motors were then being out performed by those equipped with expansion chambers, so perhaps in the interest in keeping the engines simple as far as things falling off, he chose to stay with the "tin can" until the use of others like Harry's forced the change. Perhaps cost could have also been a factor in not going to them until absolutely neccessary.

    Perhaps Peer, Ralph Donald, or others that had a close relationship with him could shed light on this. In a lot of cases developments such as this are made by different folks at the same time, without the knowledge of the competing persons involved. That is what happened with the development of the jet engine prior to WWII by persons in both the UK and Germany The engines were developed in the same time frame but without the knowledge of the two inventors as to what the other was doing.

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