Thread: Konig History

  1. #331
    Team Member Master Oil Racing Team's Avatar
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    Fantastic Joe. I got your e mail and the article looks very interesting. Have to find my glasses first to read it. Very happy you were able to find the factory, and look forward to future posts. Peter looks more like Dieter now than when I last saw him. Germans were very interested in American cowboys and indians. On one of my trips I brought some arrowheads I had found and gave them to some of my friends in Berlin, including Peter. When I saw him in 1993 he didn't remember me, as he was too young in the 70's, but he did remember the arrowhead.



  2. #332
    Team Member Smokin' Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Oil Racing Team View Post
    Fantastic Joe. I got your e mail and the article looks very interesting. Have to find my glasses first to read it. Very happy you were able to find the factory, and look forward to future posts. Peter looks more like Dieter now than when I last saw him. Germans were very interested in American cowboys and indians. On one of my trips I brought some arrowheads I had found and gave them to some of my friends in Berlin, including Peter. When I saw him in 1993 he didn't remember me, as he was too young in the 70's, but he did remember the arrowhead.
    Wayne, Here's the pitch distribution of the König-built prop I bought. Taking pitch at mid-chord it's a 7x13 with 15mm propshaft dia. Can you identify the motor/class?
    Rake is 0 degrees as expected for a hydro, with -1 degree on one blade. I saw Dieter's self-made pitch gauge but did not see a separate rake gauge. Given the slightly large pitch distribution/variation from leading to trailing edge I doubt that this prop was a winner. It does have a hydrodynamically-beautiful blade shape.

    I see that you held several records with Königs ca. 1985 with larger motors. What was the 100 cc motor?

    Joe
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  3. #333
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    It's not just simply the diameter and pitch to identify the motor and class Joe. Marshall Grant had one prop that turned out to be his best prop for the 350cc (OB class), 700cc (OD class) and 825cc (OE claass) motors. How can this be you ask. The B class ran either a 12:15 or 12:14 gear ratio lower unit, the D ran a 15:16 lower unit and the E (or F class as we called it in the U.S., ran a 1:1 lower unit.

    I pulled out my test book and will look at some examples of the best props we ran. That 7 X 13 would run on a B, but it also would work with other classes as I mentioned.

    My first competition record was at Alexandria in 1967 in A hydro. I set at B hydro record at Alex the following year. Over the years I set a number of competition records that were broken before the year ended so the last guy went into the books. On a good day at Alexandria, it was common for a half dozen records to be set only to be broken in the second heat, many times by the same driver who upped the previous record. Of my proudest accomplishments with records were two that we set with competition setups. In 1976 we averaged a little over 110 mph with the same setup but different boat that we won the world championship with and in 1979 we went a little over 105 mph. These were both kilo records and reflected what the hydros could do on a race course like Alex or Dayton when the water was good. We used the same props we raced with on 1 1/4 mile courses. That is.....with good acceleration...not a long wind up to enter the traps. We did this just to find out how fast we were running in good conditions. When boat development lagged behind engine horsepower no one was constesting the records of the bigger bore alky classes and we knew from our Kellers that we were within range of the old records.

    Another accomplishment we were proud of is being the first boat to average over 80mph on a 1 1/4 mile course. Of course inboards didn't have records for that size course, but ALL outboards did. We were the first. Jerry Kirts went over 80 later that year at Alex. so he went into the books. The records you might have been referring to Joe were probalby the competition records I set at Yelm in 1976 and 1980. One was with a 700cc Konig and the other was an 825cc Konig, and remarkably the records were exactly the same...90.817 for the 700 and 1100 cc hydro class I was hoping to be the first outboard to break 100 mph average in competition, but there was no testing at either of the surveyed 1 2/3rds miles courses where that might be possible. My last shot was at Yelm in 1980 where I got a terrible start and the 90.817 was because the first lap was around 88mph, the second was 93 or so and the last lap was a little over 96, but it was all I could do to keep the boat on the water. I kept the throttle wide open, but feathered the pipes up and down to keep from blowing over. If we could have had just an hour on the water we could have broken 100. The two guys who came closer than I did were the late Jim Stone, and Todd Brinkman, Jr. Jim averaged 99 the year he was killed and Todd was averaging over 100 when he blew over on the final few hundred feet to the finish. Sorry to ramble on, but...you asked....and I got flooded with memories looking up some info

    Be back with some stats on props later tonite or maybe tommorrow. Have to head to Corpus for fried speckled trout with my father in law and nephew and his wife who came to visit from East Texas.



  4. #334
    Team Member Smokin' Joe's Avatar
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    Wayne,

    Very nice, thanks! What was the 1100cc motor? Peter thinks there are enough
    parts to build a 250 cc motor but warned that the driver must be light (<75 kg)
    and must work the pipes a lot. I didn't realize how much more you guys had to do while
    steering and trying to keep the hydro on the water! Arens showed me a 'mod-vp' type
    tunnel that's run, I guess, with 850 cc motors. The mod vp was a v-bottom with
    sponsons added, sponsons lower than the pad. He said it came to the point where, one weekend, one death with hydros. I can believe that at 100 mph and better. The tunnel has a safety capsule.

    Speckled trout ...., not bad.

    In the old photo where you're walking out of the water after a heat you look like some movie star, J. Bridges or the like.

    I didn't know to ask Peter if Margit is still alive. Seems that Peter and Marion are close, and close to the old factory.

    Joe



    Quote Originally Posted by Master Oil Racing Team View Post
    It's not just simply the diameter and pitch to identify the motor and class Joe. Marshall Grant had one prop that turned out to be his best prop for the 350cc (OB class), 700cc (OD class) and 825cc (OE claass) motors. How can this be you ask. The B class ran either a 12:15 or 12:14 gear ratio lower unit, the D ran a 15:16 lower unit and the E (or F class as we called it in the U.S., ran a 1:1 lower unit.

    I pulled out my test book and will look at some examples of the best props we ran. That 7 X 13 would run on a B, but it also would work with other classes as I mentioned.

    My first competition record was at Alexandria in 1967 in A hydro. I set at B hydro record at Alex the following year. Over the years I set a number of competition records that were broken before the year ended so the last guy went into the books. On a good day at Alexandria, it was common for a half dozen records to be set only to be broken in the second heat, many times by the same driver who upped the previous record. Of my proudest accomplishments with records were two that we set with competition setups. In 1976 we averaged a little over 110 mph with the same setup but different boat that we won the world championship with and in 1979 we went a little over 105 mph. These were both kilo records and reflected what the hydros could do on a race course like Alex or Dayton when the water was good. We used the same props we raced with on 1 1/4 mile courses. That is.....with good acceleration...not a long wind up to enter the traps. We did this just to find out how fast we were running in good conditions. When boat development lagged behind engine horsepower no one was constesting the records of the bigger bore alky classes and we knew from our Kellers that we were within range of the old records.

    Another accomplishment we were proud of is being the first boat to average over 80mph on a 1 1/4 mile course. Of course inboards didn't have records for that size course, but ALL outboards did. We were the first. Jerry Kirts went over 80 later that year at Alex. so he went into the books. The records you might have been referring to Joe were probalby the competition records I set at Yelm in 1976 and 1980. One was with a 700cc Konig and the other was an 825cc Konig, and remarkably the records were exactly the same...90.817 for the 700 and 1100 cc hydro class I was hoping to be the first outboard to break 100 mph average in competition, but there was no testing at either of the surveyed 1 2/3rds miles courses where that might be possible. My last shot was at Yelm in 1980 where I got a terrible start and the 90.817 was because the first lap was around 88mph, the second was 93 or so and the last lap was a little over 96, but it was all I could do to keep the boat on the water. I kept the throttle wide open, but feathered the pipes up and down to keep from blowing over. If we could have had just an hour on the water we could have broken 100. The two guys who came closer than I did were the late Jim Stone, and Todd Brinkman, Jr. Jim averaged 99 the year he was killed and Todd was averaging over 100 when he blew over on the final few hundred feet to the finish. Sorry to ramble on, but...you asked....and I got flooded with memories looking up some info

    Be back with some stats on props later tonite or maybe tommorrow. Have to head to Corpus for fried speckled trout with my father in law and nephew and his wife who came to visit from East Texas.

  5. #335
    Team Member dumperjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokin' Joe View Post
    I didn't know to ask Peter if Margit is still alive.
    yes, dieter his sister is still alive.
    we (klassik-boote), had contact with her.
    they gave us information from the old story of könig.
    unfortunately we can not get good contact with Peter.
    thanks for the pictures of the old production site of könig motore.
    I would quite like to see with my own eyes.
    there are over here in Germany too many royal wrong and bad information.

    pictures in the notes of the memorial
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  6. #336
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    Default König memorial

    Quote Originally Posted by dumperjack View Post
    yes, dieter his sister is still alive.
    we (klassik-boote), had contact with her.
    they gave us information from the old story of könig.
    unfortunately we can not get good contact with Peter.
    thanks for the pictures of the old production site of könig motore.
    I would quite like to see with my own eyes.
    there are over here in Germany too many royal wrong and bad information.

    pictures in the notes of the memorial
    Where (in Berlin?) is the memorial? Did they carry hydros across Saatwinkler Damm to
    test in the canal beneath? We should come into contact. My wife is German, I speak German, I've spent 80% of my time in the last ten years in Austria and Germany. My contact with Peter is good, I think, I may go back next summer and try to put together a motor. I'll be in Texas until next June, then back to Austria for the summer.

    jmccauley@uh.edu

    http://mccauleyandson.com/index.html

  7. #337
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    The memorial stone is located in Berlin, on the grounds of the "MRC".

    Here is a link:

    http://www.mrc-berlin.com/rennsport_...er_koenig.html

  8. #338
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    Default Dieter

    Thanks to all involved for putting all the information/articles and pictures up of the factory and the memorial of Dieter.
    Very nice to see and read
    Thanks,
    Todd

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1100r View Post
    Thanks to all involved for putting all the information/articles and pictures up of the factory and the memorial of Dieter.
    Very nice to see and read
    Thanks,
    Todd
    It was my pleasure. I'd like to have stayed longer in the factory but we had 10 hrs. more
    to drive to Austria and two of us had to fly back to Houston less than two days later. As I said, I hope to be motivat3ed enough to go back next summer.

    Joe

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    Thanks for the photos of the memorial Dumperjack and the photos of the Friends of Dieter. I had seen pictures of the memorial before, but not from the additional angles nor the Friends of Dieter. I knew most of those guys.

    Our website provider went down for a couple of days, so sorry to respond so late Joe. There was not an 1100 cc Konig. That was an American class created to keep the 6 cylinder Mercs in the mix. That would have been the old F class. OF in UIM is a max of 1000 cc,s and we wanted to keep the 6 cylinder loopers and deflectors racing, plus a little allowance for overboring to clean up cylinders.

    As far as testing on the canal, I can't remember exactly where it was, but it was close to the factory, though not across the street. Seems like we loaded a boat on the roof of Dieter's Mercedes then went a short way down Saatwinkler Damm where there was a ramp that led down to the water. It was very narrow and my first lap, I was unable to make the turn and had to kill the engine and drift up against the sloped cobblestone embankment. The next attempt I dropped the sponsons back in the water, and when it slowed enough, I jerked the wheel hard and almost all the way to the left while at the same time getting back hard on the throttle and that caused the prop to break loose. Then I could just spin the back around until I got aimed the right direction and back off so the prop could bite again. Kind of like getting a cavitation started, then feathering the throttle to take back off. Takes a little practice. Hans Krage was a master in that canal.

    Now to the props. I did some research in our test book and unfortunately not all the prop info is there. Most of our best props were Seebold and Hopkins. Testing revealed that some of the best props weren't working that great all the time depending on the set up. Although we started running a couple of 3 bladed cleavers at the end of our career, I don't have any data on them. I think that your prop would be worth a good look on a C (500cc hydro) with a 15:16 lower unit or a B (350cc hydro) with a 15:16 lower unit. Maybe even a D (600cc hydro or the American class 700cc hydro) with a 15:16 lower unit.

    Our Hopkins BRG1- PC11 prop worked good on a B with a 12:14 and C with 15:16. It was considered 7 X 13 with measurements of 12 1/2--11 1/2---14 7/8 across both blades. It was one of the few props that measured identical on each blade.

    Hopkins BRG1-PKD 66 also ran good on both B and C with same gear ratios as above. It was a 7 X 13 measuring 12 11 and 14 1/2 on one blade and 12 1/2 11 1/2 and 14 1/2 on the other blade.

    One of Marshall Grant's props.( K4-10), that ran good on our 4 carb, dual rotary valve engine with a 1:1 lower unit was a 6 7/8 diameter prop with blade readings of 11 10 7/8 15 and 11 11 7/8 15.

    We had a lot of success with a Hopkins CDH prop, a Hopkins Baldy 4, a Seebold Super D Konig, and a Seebold 113 ssc that was a 7 X 13, but infortunately I don't have any other data for comparison on those.



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