Thread: Konig History

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    BoatRacingFacts VIP John Schubert T*A*R*T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Litzell View Post
    The Konig were fast and depending on driver won, the big change was going from two carb B's to the single carb model, when the Quincy looper cane about it ruled until 67 when the first four cylinder B Konig came out with the rotary valve. Then the race was on until the early70's. and the square Block B pretty much sealed the deal. Steve
    See,I let Steve take the lead here. In 1968 the Loopers stil lruled. I won the nationals at Depue with a Looper.No fluke either.

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    Team Member Master Oil Racing Team's Avatar
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    I think you jumped the gun on this one John. Go back and reread Steve's post. What he is saying is that loopers ruled the roost until 1968 when the 4 cylinder rotary valve Konigs came out. Then it was game on. Until then the loopers had no real competition against the two cylinder internal rotary valve Konigs. After that, there was real competition between the two and whoever had the best set up, good start, drove hard etc. got the win. In 1968 you won with your looper against other drivers with both Quincy Loopers AND competitive four cylinder Konigs. It wasn't until the square blocks came out that Konig dominated.



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    Wayne read that correct John, your win was no fluke, but the new square block was a much better motor and between that one and the new cast inron cylinder Fa, they pretty much killed the flatheads. In the A class alone, I remember testing at a famous lake in Lakeland with Walt, and a couple drivers with these new A's were some 7 to 8 mph faster than the good A's form Quincy, and they were running like crap and not clean, When Walt done his thing with them and Made them run clean, they were quickly into the 80 mph range and we ran out of boat quick, Hello John Yale. The new B motors were also the same, The only saving grace we had in A, was the Konig. With its small retainer bearing was quickly over come by the power of the "New A". They would only last about 6 heats and they would shuck a retainer.Hello Walt Blankenstein, he found a rod bearing from a Suzuki dirt bike that fit and had taller rollers. That added durability to the motors and ended the failures and sealed the deal in Konig domination. I remember running in elimination heats and just hoping for the Konigs to fail. Worked sometimes and others not. The flathead was a very good engine, and it gave Konig many troubles over the years, even the Quincy Mercs did for that matter. One time when Dieter was staying at my house in Florida, he was commenting about my mail Box. My Mail box stand was my A Looper. Held my mail box up for almost twenty years before I moved to Georgia. Brought it with me, today it is a running and restored example of the Quincy Flathead. Hell I even sold it at one time and it came back to me, but that is another story in itself. Steve

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    BoatRacingFacts VIP John Schubert T*A*R*T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Litzell View Post
    Wayne read that correct John, your win was no fluke, but the new square block was a much better motor and between that one and the new cast inron cylinder Fa, they pretty much killed the flatheads. In the A class alone, I remember testing at a famous lake in Lakeland with Walt, and a couple drivers with these new A's were some 7 to 8 mph faster than the good A's form Quincy, and they were running like crap and not clean, When Walt done his thing with them and Made them run clean, they were quickly into the 80 mph range and we ran out of boat quick, Hello John Yale. The new B motors were also the same, The only saving grace we had in A, was the Konig. With its small retainer bearing was quickly over come by the power of the "New A". They would only last about 6 heats and they would shuck a retainer.Hello Walt Blankenstein, he found a rod bearing from a Suzuki dirt bike that fit and had taller rollers. That added durability to the motors and ended the failures and sealed the deal in Konig domination. I remember running in elimination heats and just hoping for the Konigs to fail. Worked sometimes and others not. The flathead was a very good engine, and it gave Konig many troubles over the years, even the Quincy Mercs did for that matter. One time when Dieter was staying at my house in Florida, he was commenting about my mail Box. My Mail box stand was my A Looper. Held my mail box up for almost twenty years before I moved to Georgia. Brought it with me, today it is a running and restored example of the Quincy Flathead. Hell I even sold it at one time and it came back to me, but that is another story in itself. Steve
    I actually was not debating the years when the square block surfaced.Not sure of the year. After the 1968 season I traded one of my B loopers to a friend. O'Dea talked me into getting one of the early FA's Scott Smith imported. While I should have won the 1969 national championship I had a 1st & 3rd. Wal man had. 1st & 2nd. My overall time was less then Gerry's. I have a time sheets as evidence. You know the ones Gloria always provided. And, most importantly while testing prior to the drivers meeting with Simon's prop I only saw 77 on my speedometer as fast as my B Looper Oh yeah retainers didn't last long, but we did better then 6 heats

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    Team Member smittythewelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Litzell View Post
    The Konig were fast and depending on driver won, the big change was going from two carb B's to the single carb model, when the Quincy looper cane about it ruled until 67 when the first four cylinder B Konig came out with the rotary valve. Then the race was on until the early70's. and the square Block B pretty much sealed the deal. Steve
    Are we talking apples and oranges? I was wondering about the competitiveness of the deflector B Konig (two carbs, each feeding one rotary valve) against the other crossflow motors of the day (late Fifties). The one-carb FB Konig was entirely different, with a "big" single 32mm carb feeding thru two rotary valves via a siameezed intake, and with Schnurle loop scavenging, a much more powerful engine. I know you know all this, Steve, but I wanted to clarify the question: How good was the deflector Konig against the best Champs and Mercs?



    As to relative performance of the various loop scavenged B motors of the Sixties, things were a little different out here in Reg. 10 in the Sixties/early-'70s, possibly because we had two top tuners, Jim Hallum and Ron Anderson. Each of them reworked a B Quincy, and those were the two fastest Loopers in the Region, but they still wouldn't keep up with the Anzanis built by the same two men. Neither of them ever built an FB (two cylinder) Konig, which might have been even a little faster. My notion, though I never had one, would be to start with an FC Konig and sleeve it down to take FB pistons (FC and FB had same stroke), which would have resulted in an aluminum uni-block engine without the separate heavy iron cylinders flopping around as in the factory FB. This might have been a good Restricted B engine years later. Anyway, Hallum finally built a first-gen (round-block?) VB Konig four for Walin which outran every other B in the region, won two Nationals, and set a comp. record, which is the end of the story I know.

    Zak used to moly-coat those poor little aluminum A Konig retainers, and slot the big end of the rods, as ways to make the later versions survive the increased hp. Funny thing, as I recall, up to somewhere in the early '60s the FA konigs came with good long rod bearing rollers and steel retainers. When Hallum was helping motorcycle roadracer Jim Dunn build his privateer 250cc X-6 Suzuki that outran the factory 250s at Daytona, they made similar steel cages last longer by silver-plating them. Silver-plated titanium bearing cages would've been better yet, but there was a reason racers called that substance "unobtanium."

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    Quote Originally Posted by smittythewelder View Post
    Are we talking apples and oranges? I was wondering about the competitiveness of the deflector B Konig (two carbs, each feeding one rotary valve) against the other crossflow motors of the day (late Fifties). The one-carb FB Konig was entirely different, with a "big" single 32mm carb feeding thru two rotary valves via a siameezed intake, and with Schnurle loop scavenging, a much more powerful engine. I know you know all this, Steve, but I wanted to clarify the question: How good was the deflector Konig against the best Champs and Mercs?



    As to relative performance of the various loop scavenged B motors of the Sixties, things were a little different out here in Reg. 10 in the Sixties/early-'70s, possibly because we had two top tuners, Jim Hallum and Ron Anderson. Each of them reworked a B Quincy, and those were the two fastest Loopers in the Region, but they still wouldn't keep up with the Anzanis built by the same two men. Neither of them ever built an FB (two cylinder) Konig, which might have been even a little faster. My notion, though I never had one, would be to start with an FC Konig and sleeve it down to take FB pistons (FC and FB had same stroke), which would have resulted in an aluminum uni-block engine without the separate heavy iron cylinders flopping around as in the factory FB. This might have been a good Restricted B engine years later. Anyway, Hallum finally built a first-gen (round-block?) VB Konig four for Walin which outran every other B in the region, won two Nationals, and set a comp. record, which is the end of the story I know.

    Zak used to moly-coat those poor little aluminum A Konig retainers, and slot the big end of the rods, as ways to make the later versions survive the increased hp. Funny thing, as I recall, up to somewhere in the early '60s the FA konigs came with good long rod bearing rollers and steel retainers. When Hallum was helping motorcycle roadracer Jim Dunn build his privateer 250cc X-6 Suzuki that outran the factory 250s at Daytona, they made similar steel cages last longer by silver-plating them. Silver-plated titanium bearing cages would've been better yet, but there was a reason racers called that substance "unobtanium."
    Deflector for deflector the Konig was better than the say Quincy Mercs ( not loopers). The two carb B had two rotaryvalves, they were at the bottom of each case where as the single carb B had a rotaryvalve on both sides of center case. The two Carb B was both a deflector and with updated loop cylinders as they were all interchangeable. The C was also both loop and deflector. Your idea Smitty of making a B out of a FC would of been just a single carb B at the time. Keep in mind these motors only reved to about 9800 or so. The problem with the A motors was the early type had a very short bearing like the first four cylinders had. As the power came up, the limit speed of the bearing was overcome. Later versions had a taller bearing maybe like what you described. This bearing problem still exists today with current motors like the Konny motor. These motors have reached the limit speeds of bearings and durability is now a problem. Hope this answers your questions. Steve

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    Team Member smittythewelder's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info on relative performance, Steve. Who had the fast deflector Konigs in the country, any names we'd know? FWIW, did you know that Turner made pistons for the deflector B? They looked to me like they might have been a little better than the ones Scott Smith had, slightly bigger windows. I didn't get into racing until '65, so I never saw the all-crossflow years. The Rautenburg brothers had been running and selling Konigs (mostly A's) for a few years by that time, and we also had Anzanis. As to the various configurations of the various two cylinder Konigs, I have Bill Myers old deflector powerhead in a box along with odd FB and FC parts, and some of my own FA stuff. Yeah, my notion of an FC sleeved to FB would only have had one carb, but there was room for it to have had a 40mm bore or even bigger. That's why I thought it might have been a good Restricted B, given the rules for that class. But for that matter, the sleeved FC block might have been adaptable to the 2-carb deflector 'case with some welding on the 'case, if two carbs were wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Litzell View Post
    The problem with the A motors was the early type had a very short bearing like the first four cylinders had. As the power came up, the limit speed of the bearing was overcome. Later versions had a taller bearing maybe like what you described.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=2-st...Dx0x2JYdDmPmM:

    Now IF that link works (look at the big photo for the KTM350 bearing), the big-end bearing in the photos looks roughly like those that came with the A Konigs in the Fifties until maybe '62, as I recall it. Nice tall flat-ended rollers (remember Zak always called them "rolls") in a formed steel cage. For some reason Konig then went to aluminum cages and very short rollers which had perfectly half-round ends on them. A few years later, maybe '67 or so, we got back a tiny little amount of roller length when the ends of the rollers were made more nearly flat, less hemispherical, with the aluminum cages modified to suit this alteration. These aluminum cages were the ones that Zak moly-coated; I still have a few, though I eventually learned to moly-coat parts on my own, using an airbrush, an old phonograph turntable, and supplies from an outfit called Kal-Gard. Anyway, the rollers still looked absurdly short (especially as they were running in Zak's slotted rods), but maybe they were used until the end of the A Konig years unless Herkler came up with something better (after my time) ??? What I'm saying is that the very earliest FAs, with the megaphones or the first skinny expansion chambers, had what appeared to my ignorant self to be the best big-end bearings of the entire engine series ('57 to what, '78?).

    Lots of silly detail and what does it matter now, but that's how I recall it, and I do have some dusty boxes with examples.

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    Default Need help finding Peter Konig contact info

    I realize this is avery old thread but I stumbled upon it looking for parts for my Konig SD570 four cylinder radial engine. From what I have heard is that Peter still has several parts available and is willing to sell them. Could someone please point me in the direction of how I can make contact with Peter or his sister Marion? It would be greatly appriciated.

    Thanks,
    RickM


    Quote Originally Posted by Smokin' Joe View Post
    A week ago our son Hans and I visited Holger Arens at his factory in east Berlin. We'll post photos and a story later. He told us that the König factory is still there on Friedrich Olbricht Damm, the doors were simply shut when Dieter died, and that son Peter König occasionally sells some motor parts to König enthusiasts. That was during our annual vacation on the east German island Hiddensee ne of Berlin.

    On the way back from Hiddensee to Austria yesterday we stopped and (with Wayne Baldwin's help with the address) finally found the factory's back entrance just before Peter and his sister Marion were about to drive away. I immediately recognized Peter from photos of Dieter. Peter asked who am I, noticed my Johnson cap, and was immediately very friendly (as was Marion) to an old boat racer. They had a duty to perform but nevertheless took time to show us the factory (I didn't find out if they speak English, but having grown up in west Berlin I assume that they do). As we walked inside the factory I said to Peter 'Wir sind auf heilige Grund' ('We're on holy ground'). When he took me into the test room he finally responded, 'Jetzt sind wir auf heilige Grund' ('Now we're on holy ground'). There were a pair of expansion chambers attached to a hose to send the exhaust out of the building. I didn't see the dyno but it was surely there. In another room we looked at rows of blocks and powerheads, a few with v-block reeds (experimental) but most with rotary valves. There were also the air cooled plane motors. Near the end Marion brought out a box of props, König, Wald (east German) and Dewald. There was an unworked König prop casting among the lot. Peter vaguely recalls being with his father once when the metal was poured (Marion thinks the molds may still exist) but he doesn't recall the foundry. The König prop has a blade shape that I'd build, so I bought it. I don't know which class motor it fits, will put it on my pitch gauge when I get back to Houston and then Wayne can tell me the class. It was a very pleasant and important experience for me to see the old factory, rows of parts complete with machines. Peter didn't want photos made of the machines because of what he saw as Unordnung. My German wife took one photo, she didn't hear him say that, and the machine shop looked fine to both of us.

    The first photo shows the front, today, of the former factory building. The König entrance is at rear. Between the used car business and König is a small metal works. Wayne has posted (pg. 1) a photo of the front of the building from 1977, and fantastic photos from the inside. Presumably, that was during Wayne's trip to Berlin when he and Dieter went to a race in Austria on the Donau/Danube. I didn't ask Peter and Marion if the rent out the rest of the building, or simply sold it.

    I told Peter I'll try to visit again next summer. Marion was kind enough to give me a stack of König decals before we left, now I'll have to put them on a JohnRude! Unless there are enough parts left in the stock to assemble a complete König. I'm wondering if the old 3 cyl. 500 cc model might be possible but would settle for a Boxer.... .

    As an anecdote, I told Peter I was a factory-trained Mercury mechanic at age 14 and cringed every time I saw a König speed record listed in the NOA record book. that brought a smile.

    Joe McCauley

    PS I learned later via email that Peter is fluent in English.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RickM View Post
    I realize this is avery old thread but I stumbled upon it looking for parts for my Konig SD570 four cylinder radial engine. From what I have heard is that Peter still has several parts available and is willing to sell them. Could someone please point me in the direction of how I can make contact with Peter or his sister Marion? It would be greatly appriciated.

    Thanks,
    RickM
    That is going to take a higher authority than anyone here as Peter has been dead for maybe 5 years now. Factory is closed and Marion is hard to get hold of, man that rents space there knows little of what is there, maybe you could say what you need and I can help, Steve

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    Team Member Smokin' Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Litzell View Post
    That is going to take a higher authority than anyone here as Peter has been dead for maybe 5 years now. Factory is closed and Marion is hard to get hold of, man that rents space there knows little of what is there, maybe you could say what you need and I can help, Steve
    Peter died a few years ago. You'd need to look up Marion in the Berlin phone book
    or other info. We were in the factory in 2011.
    Joe

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