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Thread: Fastest Run By A Quincy Flathead 6 cylinder?

  1. #1
    John (Taylor) Gabrowski
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    Default Fastest Run By A Quincy Flathead 6 cylinder?

    Is there anything to the story that no one has ever found out just how fast a Quincy Flathead 6 cylinder could go on a hydro because no one ever kept the throttle down long enough and far enough flat out to find out?
    Last edited by Ron Hill; 01-30-2018 at 03:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Team Member Gene East's Avatar
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    John, I don't think I've ever seen a 6 looper held open long enough to max out on speed.

    Have you ever seen one run???

    Squeeze the throttle and the torque is so powerful that it TWISTS the left sponson off the water.

    Just sit back,close your eyes and imagine how sweet it sounded when several of those engines were singing in concert!

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    Default Speed of a looper 6

    The fastest I ever saw one run was at Alexandria, La, in the 70's, can't remember the exact date. It was the same time when Waldman set the 114 MPH Kilo record for "D" Hydro. Jerry Peterson ran one thru at a two way average of about 107 I think. It was not as fast as Waldmans "D" but it also sounded like it had a lot more left, but he ran out of Kilo trap before it reached its potental. Either that or he just did what was neccessary to get the record. Either way, that sound was probably to blame for some small percentage of my hearing I don't have any more.

    The boat was quite long, possibly a Marchetti, I dont remember that either, but a very big boat for the time. In my memory it seemed to be 13-14 ft long, and as Gene said, the 6 would really torque a boat.

    Waldmans D was also very impressive, possible more so. It was faster for one thing, plus that was the year all the Flatheads were running loads of Nitro, and he would just basically idle up to the start of the traps, and then punch it. It accelerated so hard that it was at top speed in no time and distance. Then he would let off and very slowly turn around, approach the traps and punch it again. No big run at the traps at all to attain that 114 mph speed. That is why it impressed me more than the 6. I remember that Carl Rylee, the referee, absolutely did not believe that Jerry could run that fast in a Kilo with that boat, disallowed the first runs, and demanded that he go out and do it again, or the record would not be accredited. He got back in, did it again, and when he came back in that time, according to what I later heard, told Rylee if any more runs were required, Rylee could do it (drive it) himself, as that was all he (Waldman) was going to do.
    Perhaps Gene East could verify that part of the story. I can very easily believe it, as Carl was God, or thought so, at the Alexandria race course.

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    Bill,

    I read your post with interest. I don't want to split hairs, but here is a copy of the official NOA Certified Record showing that Jerry Waldman set the D Pro (alky) Hydro record at Alexandria, Louisiana, on October 18, 1971 at a straight-a-way speed of 116.883 mph. This copy was signed by then Executive Director of the NOA, Claude Fox.

    I was with my dad, O. F. Christner, in 1971 when he got the phone call from a very excited Jerry Waldman regarding the record. Jerry also told my dad that on one of the runs that he got a longer start on, Jerry saw the speedometer go over 130 mph before the boat became literally airborne and totally out of Jerry's control for some time before it obviously set back down. That record was set with a 11 ft 6 in kneel down Marchetti hydro WOW.

    As to the rumors regarding nitro used by Jerry while setting this record, I will go on record, based on what both Jerry Waldman and my father told me, that this record was set strictly running methanol and castor. Absolutely no nitro.

    Yes, Quincy Welding was experimenting with nitro on some of the Loopers racing at that time. If your memory was different from mine, so be it, but I stand by what Jerry and O. F. personally told me regarding that record.

    I went to the regular Alex races in 1971 with dad and I remember we were trying to make nitro work as the fast Konigs were already running it. We had a lot of problems with the nitro burning and sticking pistons. Looking back, with my current knowledge that I gained with many hours of dyno time on engines in the 70's and 80's with my dad, I now realize what we were doing wrong back then. It's always easier to look back, Bill.

    Keep posting here at BRF. I really enjoy the manner in which you articulate your stories.

    Your friend,

    Paul A Christner


    ps: As to the question of has a 6 cyl Looper ever been run at full throttle for strictly a straight-a-way record with a non-competition racing set up, the answer is I don't believe so. Based on the horsepower, current propeller technology and raceboat development, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see high 140's to mid 150's (mph) as a speed. That really do have that much torque and horsepower.
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  5. #5
    John (Taylor) Gabrowski
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    Default Back in the 1960s, I saw the transition but not ever held flat out.

    Gene:

    In my home town, Selkirk there was the Red River space to do it. We saw the transition in the later 1960s from the Quincy-Merc Deflectors to the Flatheads 2s, 4s & 6s. In our local stock outboard classes changes were few already. My recollection was that there were even some Kongs around with pipes that looked like something off 18 wheeler highway tractors too as well as what I would come to know as early expansion chamber pipes.

    For speed runs they would come from the south going north starting their run just north of the Red River bridge winding up fully through a little over 2/3rds of a mile to the last turn bouys in the north end of the oval course and they would then make a slow turn around not far past the northern most bouys to return south to their run start area and try it again if they wanted to, testing time permitted.

    The 2, 4 and 6 Flatheads which were not plentiful at that point, the sixes least of all and just booted past their counterpart deflectors time after time during any line up (2 boats at a time and not necessarily the same class or raceboat) speed run north. The Anzanis and Harrisons were still cooking in A and B and there were always a lot of As and Bs so it was interesting seeing all them doing their thing with the new Flatheads As and Bs doing their thing with them. They, the As and Bs always got more attention than the C Alkys did because the engines were so diverse and sounded and looked so different from each other.

    Some of the A and B runs just amazed teams with larger engines/classes seeing such small things going so fast. The roars and racing of class Ds and Fs both 4s and 6s in Deflectors and Flatheads always brought people to their feet for the entire heats they ran. I have no memory on how fast the speed runs were speed wise but speed and lap timings were going on of some sort by various individuals and officials with boards and several stop watches on a very well measured and bouyed course.

    When you see a 6 Flathead just squirt past a 6 Merc Deflector Alky and they were the fastest boats there, sometimes 2 to 3 six banger Deflectors against a couple of Flathead 6s and a couple of Flathead & Deflector Merc 44 cube Fs that was just plain fast. Watching a Flathead 6 outspeeding a 44 cube Flathead class F at the end of the straights was amazing as the Flathead 44 class Fs would be faster out of the turns until 2/3 rds down the straights where the Flathead 6 would pull up and then just barely pass the Flathead 4, then they would amost immediately have the next turn to contend with seconds later. It was dueling.

    No one with a Flathead 6 ever made prolonged runs spanning too far outside the bridge on the south as a start to anything past the last turn bouy. We did hear that they could bat past 100mph though. There was an understanding about the distances limits stated at drivers meetings as there were pleasure boats anchored outside the extreme ends of the race course enjoying their view monitored by harbour police in their boats.

    I have asked others over the years about Flathead sixes doing all out prolonged speed runs for "topped out" speed but all I ever got was comments about the drivers loosing their nerves trying to do it because the speeds produced too wild a ride for their drivers. Surely those engines could have done in the 150+ mile per hour range with the right kind of hydro?

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    Default "Splitting Hairs"

    Good evening Paul:

    Re your splitting hairs comment:

    Your documentation is certainly better than my memory, although if you only loose 2.8 MPH from your memory in 37 years, more power to you.

    Also I think you may be a little too sensitive about my comments about the usage of nitro. If you will notice, I did NOT say that Jerry used nitro on his run, merely that its usage was widespread in Flatheads at that time, at the Flathead factory's urging. I have personal knowledge of that as I talked to your dad about using in my engines and decided not to. I suppose you could say that my use of the word "all" in my comments meant he was using it also, but I have no certain knowledge of that ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I will certainly admit that the word "all" in that context was a poor choice.
    I do know at that time, as you relate, that nitro was being touted as a way to beat the fast Konigs, and a large number of Flathead users, including our mutual friend Phil Howard was using and experimenting with it. Again, I have personal knowledge of that as I had both a C and D flathead at the time and was also encouraged to try it as a way to get more power and consequently speed out of my engines. I declined, as I was having enough problems keeping them together as it was, and saw the problems other racers with Flatheads that were trying nitro were having as you relate. I almost was ready to take Stan Leavendusky Sr., as a deduction on my tax return as a dependent, with all the dollars I was depositing with him to keep them running. I finally solved the proplem (that I could not afford) by purchasing first a D and then a C Konig. They worked out to be both faster and more dependable, at that time, for me.

    Nitro was legal at that time, and could be used or not depending on the choice of the driver/owner. I do stand by my statement that I have NEVER seen a D Flathead accelerate like that one did, starting from a very low speed just before the traps and achieving the speed it did with no more run than it had. If your Father said it was straight methanol, I certainly won't argue the point. Unfortunately neither he or Jerry is available to clear up the matter. The record set, whether 114 or 116.8 was a great achievement for that time, and what they used in the tank is really not a point of contention with me, now or then. I mentioned it in context with the great achievement that it (the record) was, in that time frame and the attempts to make motors (flatheads) perform better, especially with the short run up to the traps. Perhaps I was "assuming" a little, but knowing Waldman's close association with your Dad and Quincy Welding, that would not be an assumption wrongly made, by anyone around boat racing at that time,


    That was also the first time I had ever seen a boat set up for a Kilo run, and after the run I went down and looked at the boat and motor combination. The lower unit looked to be a Quicksilver, reshaped with a whole different look, and the motor was kicked under so far the point of the lower unit was almost touching the bottom of the boat quite a ways forward of the transom.

    If I was a couple of MPH off, so be it, I was there and certainly saw history made with that run and subsequent record. Would still be interesting to know if there really was a "tiger in the tank", no matter what you heard. WHETHER THERE WAS OR NOT IT DOES NOT DIMINISH THE ACCOMPLISHMENT, especially all these years later, and that was the point and the thrust of my post.

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    Default what ratios did jerry use

    hi all,

    as i have been restoring the loopers and now a few quincy zs i've heard a lot of stories about jerry waldman. i am courious about the gear ratios he used. i've been told he used the d quicky lower units on his engines that had a modified shape to them and used 15/16 gears. i have been told he would really accelerate out of the turns. over the summer i purchased some items from larry latta's estate that included several items larry bought from jerry's estate. some of the items included several spray shields and d quicky gear sets. the gears included a set of 15/16 gears and 13/16 gears. these gears are on d quicky prop shafts.

    up for discussion..... has anyone heard of the 13/16 ratios? could thses gears be used on a unit for a kilo run? anyone ever use them.

    frank

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    Team Member Tim Chance's Avatar
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    I rode with Wayne Walgrave at the Nationals one time in F Runabout with his six-cylinder Flathead. Bruce Nicholson was the winner with a Konig and we finished second. The six had miles-and-miles per hour top end but Bruce could get through the corners much faster.

    At the end of the straightaway we were going as fast as it would go; and Wayne never backed off. I can only assume that he never backed off when he had that motor on a hydro either.
    Thanks lehre thanked for this post

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    In 1972 or 1973 my dad drove Larry Latta's for an average 109, just a few tenths under 110 at Kaukauna, WI. This was with the competition set-up since they wanted to get a baseline on the first run. They used a 14' Byers that was built for the weight rules. As the story goes, the wind was soo bad the chop was about 2'. The runs are some evidence as he went down wind in the 115's and into the wind in the 104's, thus the average. They never made another run. Don't remember why, I was only about 12 yrs old.

    About 1979, after dad bought the bought, Ed Karelson saw it run at Parker, AZ and estimated that he could build a boat for it to run in the 130's. So Paul's estimate is probably accurate.

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    Team Member F-12's Avatar
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    Default 6 banger flathead.....

    I always heard that the top speed was found on a warm evening in Minnesota. I think Wayne Walgrave told me the top speed is several seconds after you fill your shorts. Could be wrong...........but it sounds like the truth.
    Charley Bradley


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