Fastest Run By A Quincy Flathead 6 cylinder?

[RichardKCMo]

Gene, what was the speed?
I would like to know compared to the mods on gas as those SEs seem to be fast specially that big six from Tx.
Richard

[Gene East]

I believe Jerry's speed with the F deflector was 108+. That was a year or 2 before Waldman's amazing run of almost 117.

Personally, I thought Peterson's run looked faster than 108.

I don't believe the Mods today;35-40 years later, come close to that in spite of what some claim.

But speed is relative. The important thing is competition. I enjoy watching a race where 4 or 5 boats; on a short tight course, all have a chance to win even if they are running 15-20 MPH slower than the "Big Boys" claim to be running.

Years ago, boat racing lost a great deal of spectator appeal by going to long, long straight aways and wide sweeping turns for the sake of high speed. Sure, those long high rooster tails are pretty but I believe the spectators want to see action.

As you may suspect, I don't go to drag races;car or boats, for that reason. I love seeing drivers mix it up in the turns. (With respect for everyone's safety, of course).

In any type of racing, "It ain't who's fastest. It's who's firstest"!

Like you Richard, I'd like to see and HEAR more 6 bangers in the SE classes.
My hearing is already shot, so what could it hurt??

[Allen J. Lang]

If I remember right, I heard someone say the the Late Bill Fales ran the traps in NOA at about 107 mph when he blew his 14' DeSilva over backwards breaking his back. I remember Bill telling me that he will never run that rig again without a riding mechanic.
Ye Olde Desert Geezer

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I had the good fortune and pleasure of visiting with Jerry on the phone earlier this afternoon for a while, and while it was impossible to get all 37 years since the Kilo's at Alex described earlier in this thread discussed, we did get a good start. Jerry is like I was (and still am to a good degree) when I first started posting on BRF, that is, not real sure about how this all works, but he said he is going to try to chime in from time to time, or at least let me know his impressions and memories of things discussed here, so that they can become part of the history on BRF.

He did mention that his record run thru the Kilo at Alex was done with a strictly competition setup, even to dragging a speedometer pitot tube. He stated that the last time he looked down at the speedometer it was just passing 110 MPH and that was on the run with the wind that was timed at 114 MPH. The other run into the wind was, in his words, "somewhat unsettling" as the boat was getting very loose going into the wind. The two way record set was a little over 108 MPH. He had made several earlier runs that same day with no wind, and they were not as fast.

He also said he does not know where the recollection about a deflector 6 he ran in a Kilo attempt earlier came from, as he never had a deflector 6, only the Looper. Any attempt at a Kilo with a deflector must have been a different driver. He shared many other thoughts about that time frame with me, but those are his stories, not mine, so unless he asks me or others to assist, I will hope he can find the time to participate on this forum and tell them himself. He was one of the top competitors of that time frame, with both Quincy and Konig equipment, so he has lots of experiences to share.

He did say, right at the end of our conversation, that he competed many times in that time frame against Gerry Waldman, usually driving a Konig, when Gerry was driving Flatheads, and was always amazed what Gerry was able to do with, what at that time, were motors on the downside of the horsepower curve, taller and more top heavy, and otherwise disadvantagous against the Konigs of the day. In his opinion, it makes Waldman's, and other drivers of that time who were racing Flatheads and winning races, accomplishments even more impressive than they look today. He said regards that, "if Gerry had been using Konigs the last year or so before his death, all the rest of us might as well have stayed home, he was that great of a driver, set up guy, and all round boat racer." He went on to tell about the time that Gerry won all the Hydro classes at the DePue Nationals, and he competed against him in F hydro with his looper 6 against Waldman's 44. They both were giving it all they had and Jerry finished second to Waldman's first. After the race, Gerry told him "I could hear you squeaking back there". Jerry said he could almost catch him at the end of the straightaway, but there was no way to get around the corner as fast as Waldman because of his set up ability and also the higher center of gravity of the 6 making it top heavy in the corners.

As to how fast a Looper 6 might run held wide open for a long run, he feels he did the best possible at that time when he set his record, with the boats,
(he ran a 13'8" Marchetti) props, and other available equipment of the day.
What I took away from the conversation was that maybe today the Looper 6 could do a little better with the better boats, props, technology available now, but at that time that was about all that was there. I did not ask him what he thought Gerry Waldman would have been able to achieve with the Looper 6 but I will surely do so the next time we talk, and in the mean time that will surely be something to speculate about.

[Gene East]

Glad to hear you got to talk with Jerry; and if you're reading this Jerry, come join us.

We'd all love to hear from you!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

At this point it appears that Gerry waldman and Jerry Peterson were both attempting the records with competition setups, with some tuck as they weren't going to accelerate out of the corners. They knew that they were racing at speeds that equaled or exceeded the kilo records of that time. As has happened before and since, the horsepower of the motors were capable of pushing the boats beyond what they were designed for, and when bigger and modified boats were built, drivers found that they were racing at speeds that were previously on the edge.

What Bill Van told about Jerry finishing second behind Waldman in the 6 VS 4 is what I have also seen. The 6 cylinder looper was an awsome machine. There can never be a better sounding race motor than that. But the courses we ran on were too short and narrow to see just how fast a 6 cylinder looper might have been. The boats at that time would not have been able to handle the speeds for a longer straight, and then shut down for a wide high speed turn. I am of course talking about hydros. The extra weight and ability to move the deck rider around to counteract the high center of gravity worked extremely well in F runabout.

Bill Van...thanks for sharing your talk with Jerry Peterson. I do hope he does chime in with his memories. He was one of the great young superstars I admired when I first started. And it was great to talk to him at the reunion in DePue.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

Jerry and I discussed setups, Kilo versus competition, and notwithstanding the earlier comments atributed to Gerry Waldman, that he mentioned to someone that the set up he ran to set that D Kilo record, was a "competition" setup, Jerry Peterson went down and looked at Waldman's Kilo setup, just as I described I did also, when Waldman came in from the run and the boat was sitting on the bank. I can't now remember whether it was in Waldman's pit area, or in inspection, but both our memories are the same about the way the engine was sitting on his boat. As I described, it looked as though the tilt pin was completely removed from the clamp bracket assembly, and the tower housing was sitting directly against the transom, with the point of the unit almost touching the bottom of the boat ahead of the transom. In other words, a completely tucked under setup. If that was a "competition setup", and I am not saying it was not AS FAR AS WALDMAN WAS CONCERNED AND THE WAY HE NORMALLY RAN, it did not look like a normal competition setup to Jerry or I,i.e. normal for everybody else, with the propshaft of the unit more or less parallel with the bottom of the boat or SLIGHTLY kicked in or out as was common practice at the time for the way the majority of the boat racers at that time ran their boats.

Just as two people will describe anything differently, the "seeing" is in the eye of the beholder, and that is something both Jerry and I agree about, that Gerry Waldman "saw" things that the rest of us mere mortals could not or did not see as far as props, set up, etc. That is what made him what he was as far as a boat racer, and then the majority of us kind of tagged along after. I am sure it was just not the tucked under deal, but a combination of a lot of factors. Maybe one day Bobby Hering can or will shed some light on the matter. Who better than his racing partner.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

What Wayne mentioned in his post about the awesome sound of a Looper 6 is what I believe to be one of the main reasons for the "mystique" that surrounds this engine. I remember going to DePue in the late 60's and AT LEAST 5 or more miles away, probably 10, you could hear that "wail" when one was running. There has never been anything like that sound, before or since.

I never ran F Hydro, but I can only imagine what it must have been like to being overtaken by one of those monsters. If by luck you got out front of one on the start, you knew they were probably going to pull up on your rear on one straight- a -way or another, and to hear that sound coming up behind you must have been something. Probably best described as "BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID".

I sure hope somebody finally gets that recording of one on BRF. The site will never be completely perfect till that happens.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

What I was referring to Bill Van was that Gerry Waldman nor Jerry Peterson had trick lower units, special boats, extended transoms, jacked up motors with remote water pickups, or anything like that. They used the same boats and motors they race with but just some adjustments so they could go as fast as they could in a straight line without blowing over. That is what I understood they did in their attempt at the kilo. There was not enough room at Alex to do the trick stuff, and as fast as they were running they knew they were close enough already to the records. In my book, that is very cool, and to me your observations were right in line with the way the McKeans set their boats up, but with motors maybe a little deeper.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

I understand now what you were getting at when you were more descriptive about "trick setups". Gerrys was not at all "trick" in that sense of the word, like some of the pictured lower units that stick out way behind the boat, etc. The only thing you could describe as trick possibly, was the way the Quicksilver lower unit was shaped. I never saw any of the units that he ran at DePue or elsewhere for example, so I don't know about that as I never looked before or after. The unit he had on that day looked to be a standard quicksilver with material (aluminum I suppose) added to the front of the skeg above and below the torpedo portion of the unit. It was not straight but somewhat curved like a sickle blade, sort of a cresent shape. Aside from the extreme tuck under angle, that was all I noticed. As you said, with those type competiton setups, the records set in that time frame are all the more impressive. If boat racing excites you, all that were racing in those years were privliged to witness those runs.