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Thread: Konig vs. Quincy Flatheads

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    Default Konig vs. Quincy Flatheads

    On 7-19-09 I made a post on a thread entitled “Konig History” that appeared under the topic “Outboard History” on BRF. This post had to do with my experiences and memories concerning the competitiveness of the Konig brand of outboard racing engines, built in Germany, against the Merc/Quincy brand of engines manufactured in the US by Quincy Welding in Quincy, Il. These engines are and were most commonly known as “Flatheads”.

    In the content of that post I made the statement, here paraphrased, that “Quincy Flatheads had reached a plateau in their development several years before, and except for rare occasions, were not much of a threat to win”. So as to clarify my phrase (rare occasions), what I meant by that was as I was attending at least 8-10 races during the course of the summer during this time period, and I only saw Gerry Waldmans team at the Nationals (APBA) and NOA World Championships, I considered those two occasions annually to qualify as "rare ocassions". Also the Quincy Welding team usually made those races also, but they did not attend many other races in the midwest and south that I was present at. I also made several other comments that were based on my own memories and experiences as an owner and driver of C and D model Quincy Flatheads purchased when I started back racing C and D Hydro in 1968, after a layoff of approximately 9 years. The C Flathead was purchased from Bill Seebold Sr., over the winter of 1967 while he still had his Merc dealership in Granite City, Illinois, and I do not remember now 41 years later who I bought the D from, except I had a habit of not buying “junk”, so I assume it was from someone who had taken good care of it. The reason both these motors were for sale was because the new VB, VC, and VD Rotary Valve model Konigs had just been introduced for sale in the US a short time previously and the Konig was proving itself to be superior even then, based on early race results. The Konig motor had been approved by NOA (National Outboard Association) and competed in 1967 in sanctioned races, and a VC Konig won the UIM John Ward race that year in Canada. Jerry Waldman, using a Quincy Flathead finished either 4th or 5th in the John Ward race. Waldman was also the first Flathead finisher. The Konig Rotary Valve models were not approved for use in APBA until 1968.

    Since everyones memories are colored by their experiences, I will relate in a very brief manner mine, regards the Flathead engines I purchased.Both the C and D Flatheads I purchased were delivered as soon as purchased to Stan Leavendusky’s shop in Kansas City, Ks., where they were competely gone thru and anything needed was done. I had good reason to trust these engines to Stans’s workmanship as he was furnishing all the pistons used in the Flathead engines to Quincy at this time, plus he had a lot of experience running them as his son Stan Jr. was running C and D Runabout at the time with Flatheads. In addition, thru his business Stan’s Custom Pistons, he was doing a lot of work for drivers all over the US on not only Flatheads, but Konigs and Speeditwins in the C-Service class. In other words, he was a very accomplished machinist and mechanic known for fitting pistons, fabricating tower housings, etc. In 1970 or 1971 latest, they (Stan Sr. and Jr.) bought Konigs and competed with them from that time on, as even Stan Sr. could not make the Flathead competitive anymore, and since the object was to win races, they ran what they felt they had the best chance to run up front with. Based on that experience (seeing Stan’s performance with the Konig’s versus Flathead) convinced me, that especially since I had been out of boat racing for a number of years, and lacked experience, I had better have engines at least equal to what the winning competition was using, and at that time and with the drivers I was competing against, the move was definitely to Konig. In addition in 1969, the 2nd year back for me, I allowed Rex Hall to put his equipment on my trailer, as he had been boat racing for several years prior, had a VC Konig, and I felt his experience would be valuable to me as I had been out of the sport for a number of years as previously mentioned. Based on those experiences, running off the same trailer with Rex, seeing the performance of his engine and other Konigs in 68 and 69, I purchased, in 1970, a VC Konig and the next year at VD Konig (both Rotary Valve) and immediately became much more competitive in those two classes, just by changing motors.What was eye opening to me was the fact that even though I had all the latest mods in my C from Quincy, at a cost of just under $800.00 (1970 dollars) by just changing motors (same prop and setup) I gained 4-5 MPH.

    I wanted to give the readers of this post the benefit of my experience and memories of that time, and a short synopsis of my own experiences so a better understanding can be had of the reasons why not only I, but MANY others made the chang to Konig during this time frame. I did find it somewhat difficult to make that change, as my formative years growing up were during the WWII time frame, and I was definitely a US motor user unless circumstances beyond my control prevented that. The increase in performance between the motors was a real eye opener, as was the smoothness with which the Konigs ran, and I saw quickly that I had to have a Konig if I wanted to be at all competitive during this time.

    So what does all the above have to do with Konig VS Flathead? As stated earlier, I made the comment in the Konig History thread that, in my opinion the Flathead had reached a plateau in its development. Original Looper 1, who maintains the website devoted to all things “Flathead”, very shortly made a post basically stating that “since peoples memories fade over time, that is why it is good to have written history”, and disagreed very stongly about my take on, and memories of that time in Alky boat racing regards competitiveness of different make motors. These comments would seem at first glance to raise doubt about my memories of some of the best times of my life. Since they are MY memories, and I lived those times, experienced what I did, competed with a Flathead aginst Konigs, and then after purchasing Konigs, competed the other way, I think my memories are pretty good. BUT, the post got me thinking, and not only did I decide to go back and recheck my memories by accessing all the written documents I and others of my friends from the same era had and could find, but also I picked their brains and memories to see if they matched or closely approximated mine. Based on those conversations, material I had here, and also much that was sent to me, I have compiled a “history” if you wish to call it that, of that time from 1968 thru 1972 of which I was speaking when I made the comments in my earlier post regards the competitiveness of these motors against each other.

    The information that will be posted in future posts about that time frame over the course of the next several weeks, has been taken from the offical publications of both APBA and NOA (Propellor and Rooster Tail respectively), official programs at both National and World Championships, advertisements in these publications, recap letters on races sent by people like Carl Rylee from Alexandria, La., the usual referee at those events, and also the many conversations with friends already mentioned from that era. NOA of course no longer exists, but in the 50’s, 60’s, and early and mid 70’s (even later for OPC) was (in my opinion) the equal to APBA in the number and quality of races sanctioned for Alky Outboard Drivers. There were some geographic areas when APBA or NOA might have a percieved advantage insofar as numbers of drivers, i.e., in that NOA was primarily a “southern” orginazation versus APBA being a “northern” sanctioning body, although drivers from both locals attended races sanctioned by each organization. In my experience during that time frame, I saw very little difference in driver and engine/equipment quality between the sanctioning bodies. NOTE: THE PREVIOUS STATEMENT CONSISTS OF MY OWN THOUGHTS AND MEMORIES, SO EVERYONE NEEDS TO MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICE WHETHER TO ACCEPT MY RAMBLINGS AS FACT OR FICTION.)


    One thing I would like to make VERY clear is my admiration for the person and accomplishments of Jerry Waldman, who used Quincy Flatheads (at least when I was privileged to see him race) exclusively in the Alky Division, except for his C Service, Section II adventures. Even that was a “Merc”. although with a Speeditwin lower unit. I am including at the end of this post a rememberence that appeared in the APBA Propellor and was written by Charles Strang. This is being included so that those who were not involved in our sport when he was competing will be more aware of his accomplishments. Waldman was also a very accomplished Stock Category competitior, and there is a memorial award in his name presented in the Stock Category each year.

    Mr Strang’s name should be familiar to most who will read this and have been around or interested in Outboard Racing. He is a past president of OMC Corp., and also worked for Mercury when Keikhaefer owned the company. He is also the father of the Mercruiser Outdrive. One rumour I have heard over the years, and perhaps someone who reads this can offer further insight to whether it is true or not, is that Strang was actually the owner of the equipment that Waldman campaigned in the Alky division. Conformation or denial of that rumour by anyone “in the know”, would surely be an important part of the history of Outboard Racing. I have heard it mentioned by several folks who have been in a position to be close to the situation, and based on that situation, it lends credence to the rumour.

    VERY IMPORTANT:

    If you have interest or knowledge in this subject, please read the following posts and counter claims (if any) very closely. I am sure anyone interested enough to do so, will see trends emerge relatively quickly after 1968 and be able to make their own judgements and conclusions. If nothing else the time spent here should add to the already large amout of history about the competition between the various motor manufacturers of the time period. I want to thank all the folks who helped to make this information, and what is to be posted over the next several weeks, available to me, both copies of written/published documentation, and personal experiences related during many late nite phone calls. The names of the persons who have helped with this read like a who’s/who of the last 40 years of Alky racing, and I very much appreciate the time they spent helping to put this together.

    IF ANY PERCEIVED INACCURACIES ARE FOUND IN THESE DOCUMENTS TO BE POSTED, please contact me, and with ACCEPTABLE AND DOCUMENTED proof, corrections will be made asap if errors have found to have been made. I have no wish to have anything but correct information in these posts.. I have used National Championships in APBA and World Championships achieved in NOA to demonstrate the competiveness of these engines in the time frames involved, one engine versus the other. I used this criteria for several reasons. APBA Hall of Championship induction has first and foremost the requirement that a National Championship MUST be achieved (in the PRO or ALKY Division) before further consideration can take place for that award. Then other criteria are taken into consideration, such as Competition Records, Straightaway Records, High Point Awards (not necessarily in that order) but it all starts with a National Championship win. If you ask most boat racers who have competed at all levels of competition which award would mean the most, the usual first answer is a Nationals win. NOA World Championships also stood first in the “pecking order.” Another reason for the emphasis listed, is not every sponsor had the location, or financial wherewithall to put on a Kilo or Competition record course requiring expensive timing equipment, pay for surveying, etc., so these type records were not available every year except at the Alex course in the late 60’s early 70’s while Carl Rylee was in charge. National Championships were available every year, but not the other type courses and competitions,, so records set might stand for a number of years, but mean relatively little on a year to year basis, especially after several years after they had been set, new or improved motors introduced, but no competition with or for them for the reasons listed. Exception of course is a B Hydro record set by Gerry Walin of 100+ that stood for many years, but as stated, that was an exception.

    Another thing not taken into consideration in this examination are Championships or records set in the F or X Hydro or Runabout classes. The reason is very simple. There were not enough REAL (48 to 60 cubic inch) Konig engines made to provide competition of a meaningful basis against all the 44 and 6 Flatheads available and racing in the time frame discusssed. Best I can ascertain, the total was not more than 5-6 and IMHO that is just not enough competition to be able to make a satisfactory judgement. The first time (to my knowledge) that a “true” F motor was brought to the US by Konig, it won the UIM Championship at Phoenix, Firebird Lake. That race has been covered in other threads on BRF, but the short information is it was an opposed 6 cyl, on a laydown proprider hydro, driven by Hans Krage. The majority of the other “so called F” Konigs competing prior to that time were either bored out D’s or the very limited 48 cubic inchers and the 8 cyl (two C’s back to back) purchased by Marshall Grant. The engines that were brought here, except for the 8 cylinder, were really legal OE motors that competed in Europe on both tunnel boats and hydros against the motors being run at the time by drivers like Lars Strom, who is a member here on BRF, and has related many stories of his racing experiences during this similar time frame. To compare a bored out D, or the other very few Konigs being run in the F classes here in the US against 44 ci up to 60 ci Flatheads is, in my opinion, not a fair representation of a fair and even competition. That being said the smaller Konigs did sometimes come out ahead, especially against the 6 cyl Flatheads, primarily because of the lower mounted height of the motor on the boat, making it corner better and quicker around the race course.

    The above should give a good overview and my reasoning for using the criteria I did and making the decisions I did as to what information to include and what not to. The way I have done this may not please everybody, but that is not the reason I did it. If after reading the rest of the posts that will be arranged by year, 68 thru 72, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing it a different way, but in my judgement, and I think most boat racers of that era, THAT COMPETED THEN, I believe the way I have compiled the information is fair, factual, and as complete as possible in the time frame I have taken to compile it. What I thought was going to take very little time, has turned out to be quite a project, not in the least because I have tried to be correct in my conclusions, using the best and most complete information I could find, and again I thank all the others that helped in that search.


    ONE LAST THOUGHT:

    Figures don’t lie, and that is the reason when you look at Jerry Waldman’s accomplishments with Quincy Flatheads the last couple of years of his life, you have to be amazed at his ability as a driver, setup and prop person. Even though when he went out on the race course to compete the last year or so prior to his accident, and knew he was outnumbered Konig versus Flatheads, he still managed to accomplish what he did. He was an amazing person and driver, and Quincy Welding’s image and winning record the last several years they were in business, was greatly enhanced by what Waldman did, ALMOST SINGLEHANDEDLY to the benefit of the Flathead engine, towards the end of his racing career. By that time the majority of the fast guys either had Konigs, and very few Flatheads were competitive in the major races of that time. Whether you like or accept that fact or not, it is the situation. Truth be told, in my opinion anyway, and based on the very small number of Flatheads that were championship competitive at this point, his winning record is all the more remarkable. I hope all who read this enjoy it and learn something about the engine winning history of this time frame. I did.

    Bill Van Steenwyk

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    Default Article on Jerry Waldman from APBA Propellor

    Please see attachment for article
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    Default Documentation for 1967-68 results

    The following are pages from APBA and NOA publications, including ads.
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    Default Some additional info about the winner 1967 John Ward Race

    John Ward Trophy Race / Valleyfield/Quebec, Canada 1967

    Ron Hill drove equipment owned by Harry Bartolomei. The boat was a Schultz European Proprider design, powered by one of the first VC Rotary Valve Konigs to make it to the US. The VC Model had a "tin can" silencer, and had been approved by NOA in 1967 but had not yet been approved by APBA. That would take place in time for the 1968 racing season for APBA Sanctioned racing. Since the John Ward Trophy race was a UIM race the approval by US sanctioning bodies was a non-issue. Some of the drivers competing were Ron Hill, Fred Hauenstein, Bill Seebold driving equipment owned by Dick O'Dea, and Jerry Waldman with a Quincy Flathead.

    Ron Hill won one heat and Hauenstein won the other. Hill won the trophy based on a better finish in his other heat than Hauenstein. Seebold was 3rd, and Waldman either 4th or 5th. The boat driven by Hill was brand new, had just been picked up before the race, and not tested before arriving at Valleyfield. The boat was a kneeler but Hill laydown in it part of the second heat, after being thrown back into a lay down position in a corner, and stayed that way for the balance of the race.



    Some competition results from 1966 have been made available a short time ago, and the results there are as follows"

    1966 APBA Nationals
    Out of 8 classes contested A, B, C, and D Hydro and Runabout, Quincy won 4, Konig won 2, and 2 do not have information available to me to post.

    1967 APBA Nationals
    Konig won 3, B and C Hydro, and D Runabout, (Konig VC Model not yet approved)
    Do not have won records of Flatheads at this race.

    1967 NOA World Championship
    Konig won A, C, and D Hydro, and B, C, and D Runabout
    Konig won 6 out of 8 Championships

    1968 APBA National Championships (1st year V model Konig legaql in APBA)
    A and D Hydro Konig, D Runabout Konig
    B and C Hydro Flathead, A, B, C, Runabout Flathead

    Recap of APBA Nationals 3 Konig, 5 Quincy

    1968 NOA World Championship

    I have no results available for this race. Anyone who has these documented results, please forward to me and I will post here.

    1968 NOA Hi Point Winners

    Overall High Point Driver (Bill Seebold) Konig
    B, C, and D Hydro Konig, D Runabout Konig
    A Hydro, Flathead, A Runabout, Flathead

    I have winners for the other runabout classes but am not sure of the motors, as all drove both Konigs and Flatheads in this time frame.

    Recap of Hi Points Overall Konig
    1 Runabout Class Konig, 1 Runabout Class Flathead, rest UNK
    3 Hydro Classes Konig, 1 Hydro Class Flathead


    I thank all who helped in supplying copies of information and other documents from this time era.

    Next to come is 1969
    Last edited by Bill Van Steenwyk; 08-25-2009 at 07:35 AM. Reason: correction on boat type and heat finish

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    Default 1968 NOA info found

    I have just been furnished information on records, both competition and straightaway, and 1968 winners of World Championships at Alexandria, La. I will post this info when next posting information/documents from 1969.

    Thanks again to all who are helping with this history.

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    Default

    Bill,

    You obviously have put a lot of time and effort into this subject.

    I feel compelled to address one issue, "Rumours" or as we say here in most of the USA "Rumors".

    Hopefully you will agree that I was closer to the situation you mentioned than any other regular contributor to this forum including Paul Christner. He was still a kid in school at the time.

    I have never seen an invoice with Charlie Strang's name on it, nor have I ever seen an invoice with Johnny Cash's name on it. (Another rumor that was once popular)

    There have always been rumors about the ownership of engines of other makes that I cannot address, but as far as I am concerned that's all they are, just rumors.

    The name of this forum is "Boat Racing Facts" and to your credit you have listed a great many facts. Some I am not happy with, but they are facts!

    There have always been rumors that the more successful Quincy customers had access to special engines that were not available to the general public.

    I can honestly tell everyone, "That is simply NOT TRUE"!

    Please, let's all stick to the facts and leave the rumors to the gossip columns!

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    Default Thanks for the input Gene

    I appreciate your comments Gene, and that is the type of information I was looking for. This rumour about possible ownership of the equipment has been around in several forms (or at least I have heard it) since Waldman's accident, and I have heard it from a number of different folks over the years. I am glad to have you and others that were active in the sport AT THAT TIME contribute to this thread, and it is appreciated.

    As previously stated, if anyone has contributions to make to this information that is correct and can be documented, it is welcomed. 1969 Depue Nationals is the one area I still don't have complete information on. I wish now I had not given away all the info I had from that era. Anything you or anyone else has would be appreciated for inclusion in this thread.

    Everyone has the right to be proud of what they or their family has accomplished in any endevour, but others have a right to their memories also, especially if they are factual. As you so aptly put it, that is what BRF is all about.

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    Default Post number two includes results 68 and 69 information

    Posted below are results and also some documents pertaining to 68 and 69 APBA National and NOA World Championship races. As an interesting side note about Ted May, the winner of B Runabout in 1969 at Depue, Ron Hill related the following story. Both the boat (borrowed SeeJay from Carl Meyer) and the motor (VB Konig borrowed from Dave Mayer) had never been driven before the qualification heat attempt by Ted May. He won his qualification heat and then proceeded to win the Championship with all borrowed equipment. Ron did not say where the prop came from, but perhaps that was furnished by him. After seeing Ted win the Championship with this combination, he decided he should have driven it himself!! According to Ron, even though Ted May had a long and varied boat racing career, he believes this to be the only Championship Ted ever won, and he did it with borrowed equipment thrown together at the last moment.

    Winners at DePue 69 are as follows:

    AR Ralph Donald Konig
    BR Ted May Konig
    CR Jerry Simison Konig
    DR Bill Seebold Konig

    AH J. Waldman Flathead
    BH Bob Hering Flathead
    CH John Schubert Konig (his own equpment, not Dick Odea's)
    DH J. Waldman Flathead

    Results 5 Konig wins, 3 Flathead wins

    Results of 1968 NOA World Championships that were missing from the first post are included in the first document. Also on that document are competition speed records set at Alex along with 1/2 mile Straightaway Records. I do not have documentation stating when these records were set. If anyone has this I will be happy to include it. The documents will be added later this evening.

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    Default Program and other confirming documentation

    Programs and Carl Rylee letters
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    Default Some Adds and Changes...

    Valleyfield 1967, the Schultze Boote I drove for Harry Bartolomei was a kneeler. The cockpit was so long and the floor was so smooth, when I squeezed he throttle, I had to lay down because my arms weren't strong enough to hold myself up. I found, laying down with my feet on the transom, that I could drive quite well. Freddy had a 3-1 and I had a 1-2. Time was NOT a factor as Freddy set a Canadian World record with his time.

    More when my arm is out of the cast...

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