Class Consolidation....

[wholtzclaw]

Just wanted to start a small discussion about some class consolidations and everyone's opinion,...

My thought behind doing some consolidation, is that if they are done properly, people can merge classes with minimum cost, increasing the strength of a class, and making a "path" for people to follow easier.

I think this could be advantageous in several areas, what does everyone else think?

I think you may have some attrition due to people just refusing to change, but think you may see a net increase because of the seemingly bigger classes(?)

Wayne

[Mark75H]

Its a noble and worthy ideal, but the application is nearly impossible. No 2 classes are identical enough to combine without some handicapping. No one wants to run slower than they already do ... there us often someone who figures out how to go just as fast with the handicap. More often the handicap scheme's first iteration has a major error and either the boats aren't slowed at all or are slowed too much. How do you handicap and equalize both top speed and acceleration?

Solve all of these problems and you will have many backers, leave out any single one and no one will support your method.

[Skoontz]

Talk to the guys in NBRA about how they work it...It makes a great deal of sense and would solve a lot of time on the wwater problems. But implementing anything that would make sense is often near impossible to pull off. I've thought for years you merge classes, runa 2 hour long race with different start times, like Parker is run would make a great deal more sense to the crowd who would buy tickets and consessions as soon as the races moved to places where people were walking by. Then, without dropping a half million dollars of forums that already exist privately, you will see growth. But who am I.....

[Mark75H]

Running classes together on the course is different from consolidation.

I am for running close classes together to shorten the day. I think there should be a rigid bracketing scheme to allow all boats that fit under current rules to run at every race for their category.

[jrome]

I have thought for years that the biggest problem with boat racing in the US is we have too many classes. Everybody cannot be a National Champion. In other countries in the world, they do not run as many classes as we do. Consolidation would put better shows on the water. In Lone Star we ran A and B Hydro and CDF Hyrdro. We scored 1st place in each class and after that you got second, third, forth and so on, no matter which class you were driving. Lots of boats on the water, great show for the spectators. You can run more heats because of the consolidation of the classes. But, I know of no one that wants to give up their class.:D Just letting you know what we used to do successfully in Texas.....Also, I saw Tommy Christopher win X Hydro in Alexandria with an A Hydro.

Just Saying..........................Not Preaching...........................

[AZOutlaw]

As an SORC member, I made the motion at the last National meeting to adopt Dean Sutherland's class reduction proposal for the Stock Category. With the understanding that Parody Committee's would be formed, the SORC actually sent it to membership vote. It failed with 2/3 membership voting to leave as is. :confused:
Not saying that another proposal won't be submitted again this year. :D Many of the supporters of the defeated proposal from the SORC, will be tweaking, and presenting another class reduction proposal at this years national meeting.

[Skoontz]

Explain consolidation vs running together...In my meaning, running classes together is consolidating the burden of the day, and you will see full fields vs 4 boats at a time runing the course...You simply score each class differently. You are consolidating the amount of water time taken. Thats the gold of the day, the most valuable thing of the day is time on that water. Cut that down, dont drag the days out so long with all the wait time bnetween classes, get the show on a busy lake and watch it grow.

[wholtzclaw]

By consolidation, I mean elimination / merging of classes;

There are a handful or more of classes, where the equipment, speeds / etc. are close; it needs to be kept fair, so someone would have to change something.

As an example; in Outboards, CSH and 20SSH, both classes use essentially the same powerheads - well, I should say CAN use the same powerheads (the Yamato 102's and 302's are legal in both classes, 20SSH allows the Sidewinder and Yamato 80). Age to run, 15 vs 16, and 440 vs 400 lbs. VERY close if you ask me. Seems to me that if you put these two classes together, that you would have say 20 boats together, instead of 2 10 boat runs. I feel that the bigger fields make more entertaining racing (to market), and you would save time on race-day trying to get everyone through their heats.

So, to take these classes, I'd say, essentially split the differences; Change the max hull weight, split the difference, make it 420, drop the Yamato 80 and the Sidewinder, and change the age to 15. Now you have one class. I understand the guys with the Yamato 80's, and the Sidewinders would seem to be without a place to go, and this again is the downside to this; you can't force them to go out and buy new motors; it is this that I have no real solution too.

I know it will never happen because of the slight differences, again, just seems to me that it would be better for the sport to have say 3 levels in each category, thus instead of having 100 drivers participating in 6 categories, you would have 90 drivers participating in 3 categories.

I would also think that If there were enough cooperation that the odds of getting an outboard manufacturer on board to start producing motors here in the US for all classes would be better, and thus, making things more affordable. You could viably use a single racing lower on a 15, 25 and 35 hp unit, same mid section, just swap powerhead to bridge between the suggested 3 classes.

This kind of problem isn't limited to outboards, but OPC and other classes as well.

I could also see some viability of running a race like the Baja 500, or the LeMans races, with all the classes on the course at the same time, and total time would take things for each class; You'd likely see more "racing" too, as the number of boats on the water would increase traffic. The downside of this is the timing; we would need a viable computerized timing system, which is a fairly large expense, or even more scorers during a race, again, added expenses. Also, imagine the number of restarts with too many boats on the course; you may not get more than 2 or 3 laps of clean racing...

Anyway, just my thoughts; I've made a decision of the "path" I will be taking getting involved in boat racing that take into account the area I live in, costs, and "natural progression", but I'm still not sure, and I've been at this whole boat thing for a long time, and working with boat racing for a few years now.

There is no perfect solution I don't think, but just wanted to hear some other opinions.

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it :)
Wayne

[Mark75H]

The problem is if you match top speed, there is still an acceleration advantage.

Generally the parity choice comes to whether one class passes the other at the end of the straight or coming out of the corner.

There is no 100% parity and its so off that it can never make it "fair". The only group that is even close is the C/20 you already mention. Since they are already running the same powerhead ... just eliminate C. Try that politically ...


Multi class Marathon racing already exists, its just not popular - evidenced by the fact that you were not aware of it.

There is nothing that can be done that will attract a major manufacturer to produce small racing outboards again ... its part of the past that will not come back. Ditto on "affordable" small race motors. Manufacturing and distribution costs are too high. The past several generations of small racers were made and sold at break even or loss and the bean counters know this. For quite some time to come, the bean counters will rule.

[David Mason]

Take a look at the classes NBRA does run. They have very effectivley consolidate/combined every class that APBA Mod/Stock Outboards has. I can honeslty say the competition is very close, there is no clear engine of choice. I think to many people listen to each and every cry of parity and don't move forward with action.

I just saying.... not preaching. Experience has shown me what they do is working.

[Skoontz]

Exactly wehy I uised it as an example Dave.
It amazes me when NBRA is brought up around APBA members, it is discounted as a non option. The successes of NBRA simply make sense and either should be adopted, or followed rather than what is currently going on.

[john miffco]

here in texas sport created for 2011 a new class F1 SPORT
which includes
legal 120s and opti runnin for 120 points
modified 120 and production 200 for F1 sport points
all runn together with aprox same lap times

had 18 show for port neches
and and 13 show for out little local highlands
thats more boat count then has shown at any national event ths yr

so consolidating,works
brings back more boat count and competition
these 3-5 boats in a class with basic same hull
needs to get together to save their class
sport is not growing and never will with a new world out there
apba being 10yr+ late on doing any advertising is way too late
when u can watch bowling and poker on network tv
and have to work to find a video of a boat race

[wholtzclaw]

John,

I see what you've done, but have your results shown ANY favorite set-up; and this is a tough call; how much of it is driver and how much of it is equipment.

Perhaps another option would be to set up the course where there is no set favorite; almost like a short track in NASCAR, top speed isn't as important as acceleration and set-up, again, you have boats that accelerate faster, so maybe they are at an advantage, so it would need to be set up with the straits long enough for the fast, but not quick, boats to make up the distance.

I think it would be interesting to run as many classes at the same time as is safe; the traffic itself would make it more of a race, passing lap traffic / etc., than just who's fastest.

Again, I don't think there is a clear solution, but it's interesting to read the feedback.

Wayne

[john miffco]

as in any type of motorport racing
good driver ,equiptment and set up takes u to the upper ranks
any 1 of the 4 motor combos with right driver and boat will have even chance

we did the research last yr on the 2.5 to a 120
the 2.5 stock with 120 tuner to keep rpms down
ran same lap times as good 120 set up
also found lots of people with 120 motors dont want to buy new equiptment
so tighter heads and any tuner lets 120 ,,,rest is legal 120 specs
motor breath but life is shortened

to be affordable is why we chose the production 2.5 200 bone stock block
no expensibe motor internals all oem style parts
with 0 grinding allowed and 120 carbs and electronics with 120 tuner
to have a motor last forever

these 2 set ups run about equal
120 more rpm
2.5 less rpm but more punch out of corners
same lap times

then legal 120 and opti for point chase drivers
as we know the opti keeps up
and a well set up 120 such as glyn or any other fine set up 120 and good driver
runs with them all

we achived more boat count and a more affordable motor with the 2.5 200
everybody so far all seems to be on the same page as far as miss matched qualifying positions with 120,,opti,and 2.5 all being there in the mix
not 1 mortor dominating the line up

the prefered engine in my mind
is the production 200
less rpm and wear on motor,,,,,,,
1st 2 races no 2.5 broke
have 2 more races coming up
to get ruling more clarified and fine tuned to be fair for all
but pretty damm good start,,,,,