PDA

View Full Version : Technical Info on Ray Hardy's "GADGET"



Bill Van Steenwyk
01-20-2007, 09:33 PM
As promised: If any who have read Wayne Baldwins "Master Oil Racing Team" thread entiltled "an Amazing Story" about racing with the four cylinder VC model Konigs in the 70's, are interested in the device that Ray Hardy came up with to improve drivability and acceleration, this narrative will give some insight to the idea and development of it and how it all came about. You may also want to look at pages 34,35,36,and 37 of the above mentioned thread for further information and background as to the reasons for the fabrication of the device. The "gadget" was primarily developed to overcome the fact that the "ZAK STACKS" that Harry Pasturczak came up with in the late 60's, and did not slide, were put at a disadvantage when the Konig's came with sliding pipes and the later design that improved them even more by changing the casting of the block to move the exhaust ports closer together. This basically obsoleted Harry's pipes as the elbows which were castings would not fit the port spacing anymore on the newer block design. Harry felt it was too much trouble to make new patterns, along with the issue that the design he was using that dumped both cylinders that fired together into the same chamber (which was opposite from the way Konig was doing it) was much more difficult to have the pipes slide on than the fabricated "Y" type manifold that came on the motor from the Konig factory. He did make some attempts to overcome this and some pictures and a description of how they worked are on the thread previously mentioned. The device was only used by a few racers in that time period, primarily ones that Ray Hardy had a close personal relationship with, and the few that had it were all sworn to secrecy not to divulge any details about it or the fact it was being used. Even now, more than 30 years after the fact, the number of people who seem to have either had one he made, or may have known about it, probably is less than 10 to the best of our knowledge at this time. It has been suggested that the details of the device be divulged so that anyone who now would wish to take advantage of the benefits of it would be able to do so. The original racers who had one have discussed this on this forum and otherwise, and it has been decided to give anyone interested the same basic information and ideas that I first gave Ray in the early 70's and see if the technical minded of you out there today are interested in trying to duuplicate or improve on the original idea and concept and possibly bring some of the old Konigs out of the basement, make the few that are still on the water more competitive, or even adapt the idea to the Konney motor, the new generation of Konig type design.

To the problem: The Konig design with the external rotary valve was a very good design, and was top dog for a long time, but one thing that could have made it more competitive individually against others of the same type, or different engines that were equal in HP, would be the ability to adjust the rotary valve timing while the engine was operating. Depending on course length, configuration, etc., the timing of the rotary valve was a compromise. You either timed it for good or better bottom end and then the top end suffered some, or the other way round. Either way, what you gained on one end you lost on the other. Same way with the original "tin can" type muffler the motors came equipped with, you either tied it up close with the cable for top end, or left it back for acceleration. You could have one or the other but not the best of both. Because I was running ZAK pipes on my C and D konig at the time and was very competitive until about 74 or so when the guys with sliding pipes were starting to get me out of the corners, I was very interested in coming up with a way to "have my cake and eat it too".
As I was working with Harry ZAK very closely on both my engines, we were trying all sorts of things, including the differently cut rotary valve discs mentioned by Wayne on the other thread, but you still had to time it in one place and make do from there.

About this time frame I happened to read in some magazine, I believe a road racing bike publication, about some work that Rotax had done with an adjustable rotary valve. I don't remember now whether they were even successful with the project, but it got me thinking, what if? So I called Harry Zak and he said he was too busy with other projects right then, but maybe Ray would be interested in hearing the idea and could do something with it. Ray and I had been friends for a while at that time so I called him and told him about the concept and he was enthusiastic about it, especially when I mentioned how I thought it could be accomplished, namely the same way that ignition timing was changed on an automobile from low to high rpm, by mechanical means. He asked if I had an extra flywheel with the rotary valve gear on it and if so to send it to him. I did and about a week later, I got back the first prototype of the device, installed it, and went testing. It worked well enough that we definately could see potental there. I ran it at a couple of races, but the main problem was when it worked correctly, it worked very well and really broadened out the power band, making the boat quicker around the race course, but there was a problem that would occur at times with the device binding or sticking and you never knew where in the degree of travel you had that that might occur. If it was at the low end of the setting, then the same problem with the non-adjustable valve, lots of bottom end punch but no top end, or at least maybe 5MPH short of what you would normally have. Same thing if it hung on the top end side, no punch, and without the ability to slide Harry's pipes, you had a problem. Ray did a lot of work over the next several years on the device and it went thru about four generations, the last of which worked pretty well according to Wayne. I didn't have the opportunity to play with it past about 1976 as I had my hip replaced courtesy of a tunnel boat blow over and didn't race again myself until the early 80's after Eileen had retired from Formula 350.

What we learned was this: The device definately worked. The advantage of being able to have the rotary valve work in a degree range that provides both bottom end acceleration and possibly now, even more top end because of the more modern porting technology in the present day motors, would seem to be a project that would be worth someone taking on. The rewards could be very great.
The main problem with the device in the time frame it was developed seemed to be the bearing material availiable then not being able to withstand high RPM and galling somewhat, causing binding in the mechanism. It will be interesting to see if someone will take this idea and try to make it work again, 30 some odd years later.

The description of the device is purposely vague, as you will understand if you read the "Amazing Story" thread mentioned at the top of this narrative. All of us who knew Ray had great respect and affection for him, and even now want to respect his wishes about the "gadget" We also think though, he would be curious how someone else would approach the same problem and potental solution and have decided to put this very worthwhile solution to the problem of a rotary valve engine's main shortcoming in the public domain to see if and how it might be approached today.

If you have questions, feel free to ask. I can't promise we will answer you directly but I can guarantee you none of us that was privy to the secret will try to stand in your way or mislead you.

Master Oil Racing Team
01-21-2007, 08:01 AM
very well said Bill.:cool:

Mark75H
01-21-2007, 01:53 PM
I wish I had a 250 Konig. Maybe I'll save my pennies and find someone who will sell me one that they'd rather see raced than sit around and seize up :rolleyes:

Any way, here's some technical information related to rotary valve timing from Gordon Jennings' Two Stroke Tuner's Handbook:

Best opening time for a rotary valve is at transfer port closing time (or earlier if using an expansion chamber - 130 to 145 degress btdc) But the thing to note is that rotor opening time is not nearly as critical as rotor closing time ...

Rotary valve closing time is noted as generally being 65 degrees after top dead center with later closing time reducing lowing mid range power and increasing top end power.

So, what is needed is a mechanism to advance the rotary valve timing at top speed and retard it at mid and low rpm. My original idea before I learned about the automatic centrifugal Hardy-ZAK device was a manually controlled device that pulled belt slack from one side of the rotor to the other to change the timing. In my mind's version the belt path would be normal on one side and taking a longer path on the other side - when changed the normal path would switch to the other side and the indirect path would replace it. There might be some way to build a manual advance between the valve disk and it's drive pulley - some kind of a spiral rack or something

David Weaver
01-21-2007, 03:27 PM
Sam,

You will probably have more luck finding a 350 Konig. But, you might want to check with the Augustines, they had 2 4-cylinder 250's. Pop even took one and converted it to a reed valve configuation. Never quite got it right, but Pop loves to tinker.

David

Master Oil Racing Team
01-21-2007, 03:29 PM
Seems to me we did a little bit of thinking along those same lines of your mechanical advance also Sam. That was before Ray came up with his automatic advancer.

We used to have a degree wheel that fit on the rounded upper portion of the flywheel nut. I think we got it from Harry Pasturczak when he first started making rotary valves. His were much better than the original Konig rotary valves which tended to warp while running and hang up on the housing when closing. Later Konig valves were of a better metal.

Harry also made some different cuts that lengthened the duration. One I think he called a 72 degree valve. In the end we ended up running a valve with the standard Konig cut and one that had an eighth inch cut off the closing edge.

Looking at my test sheets on our advancers here are a few of the entries.

On our 350 in several series of tests of the CAV IV we had the closing set at
.027 ATDC one run and .007 BTDC on another. With the RAV we had it set .005 ATDC and it would move 400 thousandths. Something doesn't seem right about my notes on part of this but I can't remember.

On the 500 with the CAV IV we set it at .040 BTDC then the next run it ran better set a top dead center. Then we changed some guts and it did better at .030 BTDC

On the 700 with CAV IV it was set at .010 BTDC and ranged to .120 ATDC.

We did all this testing with a dial indicator rather than our degree wheel.

Mark75H
01-21-2007, 04:35 PM
Sam,
You will probably have more luck finding a 350 Konig. David

I know ... but I'd rather not go quite that fast ;) 250 is more than fast enough for me these days :)

Jeff Lytle
01-22-2007, 09:13 AM
And simple too, it's a wonder Dieter never thought of the idea, so we know it never made it to Germany.

Canada either!....................Eh?

Master Oil Racing Team
01-22-2007, 10:24 AM
....it just didn't stay there.;)

I ran one in Berlin, but Dieter never poked around my motor. He would look, but not go beyond that. But, there is no telling what he had played around with. I cannot imagine that he didn't think along the lines of some way to change the valve settings while under way. He also didn't go any further with the water injection and I was there to see what that did on the dyno. It may be he thought more gadgets just make things more complicated. Although the great thing about Ray's device was that after it was all worked out, it was simple.

Jeff Lytle
01-22-2007, 11:29 AM
Armands?

corin_huke
01-22-2007, 11:51 AM
....it just didn't stay there.;)

I ran one in Berlin, but Dieter never poked around my motor. He would look, but not go beyond that. But, there is no telling what he had played around with. I cannot imagine that he didn't think along the lines of some way to change the valve settings while under way. He also didn't go any further with the water injection and I was there to see what that did on the dyno. It may be he thought more gadgets just make things more complicated. Although the great thing about Ray's device was that after it was all worked out, it was simple.

I am sure Dieter, as with the modern engine builders of Rossi & VRP, have looked at a whole host of things over the years which have never seen the light of day. You only have to have a poke around Rossi's place to see what he has tried (and dismissed) over the years - there's a lot of stuff lying around!!

As for water injection, although Dieter didn't pursue it and certainly I cannot remember Peter running it, Peer Krage used it to good effect for many years - mostly on his 0-500 and 0-700 if my memory serves me correctly. Peer's water injection set up was pretty much as described in the other thread on BRF

Master Oil Racing Team
01-22-2007, 12:56 PM
No Jeff--Mine and Tim Butt's.

Corin--I was long out of racing by the time Peer started, but Walt Blankenstein left the injection system over there and it was made out of the same type of equipment that was described earlier. I just didn't remember any check valves.

Jeff Lytle
01-22-2007, 01:10 PM
Oh yes.........Valleyfield. I thought you were saying a Canadian had one.

Master Oil Racing Team
01-22-2007, 03:09 PM
No, I kind of cheated on that one Jeff.;) As I remember...the question was whether or not one ever made it there......eh?:D

Somewhere I have some notes made up by Harry Pasturczak regarding rotary valves. Anyone who has ever seen notes or drawings by Harry will remember them as masterpieces. Everything he did was extremely precise.

Guy
02-01-2007, 12:15 AM
[QUOTE=Master Oil Racing Team;28143]Seems to me we did a little bit of thinking along those same lines of your mechanical advance also Sam. That was before Ray came up with his automatic advancer.

We used to have a degree wheel that fit on the rounded upper portion of the flywheel nut. I think we got it from Harry Pasturczak when he first started making rotary valves. His were much better than the original Konig rotary valves which tended to warp while running and hang up on the housing when closing. Later Konig valves were of a better metal.
QUOTE]

Wayne,
I ran RB and 350 Hydro back in the late 80's & early 90's. Jack Gosman did most of my (and my fathers) motor work (as we both lived just a few miles from Jack), so I used to hang around his shop quite alot. I definetly recall back then, Jack designing & experimenting with a mechanical Rotary Valve advancing/retarding strategy on one of his 500's. If I remember correctly, he was basically trying to allow the Rotary Valve to stay Open longer only at WOT (wide open throttle). Without reveiling to many of his secrets (yes I agree with you, that performace enhancements should be "Learned" and NOT "Shared"), he basically made & installed a "2nd" Rotary Valve plate that was adjusted based on a certain throttle percentage.

I thought his idea & approach was original and pretty ingenious, but then I also thought "with how smart & creative Dieter definetly is, wouldn't HE have already thought about and experimented with having an "adjustable RV" long before this?".

Anyway, to make a long story short, it didn't really work. After some tweaking & adjustments (to the engine AND the 2nd RV), "it" never seemed to have showed any substantial performance increases (bottom, mid or upper levels) as was expected.

But like someone else said, there's a whole new breed of designers, engineers & motorheads in the world now who can/has/will apply alot of New Technology to Old(er) applications for significantly higher performance gains.

Case in point, who else here remembers being at Lakeland and watching Chris Hellsten totally annihilate most all of the best "350's" in the country with his new Rossi "250" (and he really didn't even get a great Start to boot)! After that first heat was over, everyone pretty much knew that they've just witnessed a whole new page (in Technology & PRO Racing) has been turned.

Guy

Master Oil Racing Team
02-01-2007, 06:22 AM
Jack Gosman definitely did good motor work Guy. When your Dad showed up at a race, he was always one of those to beat. He was plenty fast and knew how to drive.

As far as Dieter goes, I am like you and think he must have played around with it. He may have decided potential problems outweight any gains. You know his motors were really pretty basic and would run good out of the box. When you think about additional gadgets to perk up the motor, you also throw in more things to happen.

And your point is exactly right about the technology Guy. That's what always kept us in the Pro division. If we wanted to play around with something we could do it without having to worry about any gray areas. We never thought of the concept of the additional rotary valve plate, but who knows---someone else could come along and combine or improve on ideas and make it work.

Hope you and your Dad make it to DePue. (Is is still on?)

Fred Hauenstein
02-14-2007, 12:06 PM
Valleyfield was one race where I ran my gizmo. I also used water injection for quite a few years, but it mainly helped really low RPM.

The RV timing on the Konigs varied with displacement (volume and inertia of the air stream). Wayne: I think your valve timing numbers refer to something other than closing. I ran about 0.750 ATDC closing on my 500 and 0.850 on my 700, if I remember right; and the 350 ran 0.575 to 0.600. I found a ZAK note on his RV disks. I'll scan it (- then I'll "foul out" on posting....help)

Sam: Hint: You need to retard the RV at high speed, not advance.

A note about RPM-related, adjustable devices linked to the throttle. They only work if you intend to accelerate at part throttle.;)

Fred

Master Oil Racing Team
02-14-2007, 12:35 PM
You know Fred, I was wondering exactly the same thing when I looked at my old test sheets. There were a couple of entries that seemed crazy. It's been too long for me to remember exactly, but I think it is all a matter of reference points. I think we were measuring from a point of the disc just starting to close rather than at the physical point of closing.

The way our CAV and the later RAV was set up was at lower rpm's it would be close to the static closing as we measured. When it was at speed, the timing would change. At least it would on the RAV. The changes on the CAV were only temporary on the occasions that it wouldn't stick. On the CAV the timing would change temporarily as you accelerate, but when the rpm's stablized on the straights I think the timing moved closer to the original timing. At least that's my opinion. We called it advancing because of the way some similar devices worked, but I get confused on which way it went. I need to free up my old RAV and check it out.

Fred when you say you "foul out" after posting, do you mean you get a notice that you are not logged on? If that's whats happening you can do something with the remember me box, or what I do is scroll down and log back in then the post goes where it is supposed to.