Konig pipe stingers

[Jeff Lytle]

Here's a question I bet some of you don't know the answer to:

You will notice on Wayne's pictures showing Konig Outboards that some of the pipe stingers were straight, and some were curved downwards. Anyone want to take a guess?

Most of us older (Ahem :D ) Konig guys should know, let's see what kind of guesses we get.

[BRIAN HENDRICK]

As the boats got bigger and faster, we thought we could keep the nose down by creating more lift at the transom.
So some copied what Hubbell had done much earlier with his 'B' Wildcat stacks and pointed them downwards. ;)
PS; -spoke to Ernie Wilson at the Gravenhurst, ON, ACBS show last week. :) He could answer this. :confused:
Also saw this Schutze CRH 'laydown' with a FB Konig on it that looked very familiar. :rolleyes:

[fred tyson]

As the boats got bigger and faster, we thought we could keep the nose down by creating more lift at the transom.
So some copied what Hubbell had done much earlier with his 'B' Wildcat stacks and pointed them downwards. ;)
PS; -spoke to Ernie Wilson at the Gravenhurst, ON, ACBS show last week. :) He could answer this. :confused:
Also saw this Schutze CRH 'laydown' with a FB Konig on it that looked very familiar. :rolleyes:

well when myVB72149 Konig came in from Scott Smith in 72 it had the turned down stingers on it, asked him why and he said it had to do with the UIM rules overseas, odd that several other new V series engines of that year all had the same stingers

[Jeff Lytle]

asked him why and he said it had to do with the UIM rules overseas

Correct, it was a UIM rule originally...............But what did the bent stinger do that the straight one did not?

[Jeff Lytle]

Also saw this Schutze CRH 'laydown' with a FB Konig on it that looked very familiar. :rolleyes:

Cool!

[Frank Volker]

About the spitters on the Konigs, if water injection was being used, the aerosol of water, oil, fuel would be sprayed over anyone behind the boat. Pointing the spitters down would at least partially eliminate that.

[smittythewelder]

I supposed it was about noise suppression, aiming it into the spray . . . . Additional effects of the curved pipe, complete with wrinkles an the inside of the bend, would be to raise back-pressure, increase piston crown temperature a little, and effect the reflected waves in the same manner as a smaller diameter straight pipe. Okay, tech gurus, did I get that about right?

[Frank Volker]

I supposed it was about noise suppression, aiming it into the spray . . . . Additional effects of the curved pipe, complete with wrinkles an the inside of the bend, would be to raise back-pressure, increase piston crown temperature a little, and effect the reflected waves in the same manner as a smaller diameter straight pipe. Okay, tech gurus, did I get that about right?

Considering UIM's tight noise rules, that would be a good reason for pointing the exit tubes downward. I think they (UIM) at one time required something like no more than 85db (or 90, maybe) on a drive-by test at max speed in both directions.

I've never seen one of the subject engines, but I'm guessing that any wrinkles are the consequences of a simple mandrel bend. I would be surprised if the engine performance was enhanced by the wrinkles and/or bends.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I wasn't a UIM member in those days so I can't say conclusively about the DB's because that is certainly something they might do, but it's not what I was told at the time that was the reason for the bend. So let's hear some other ideas about why the downward bend. UIM rules are correct though.

A side note to Frank. Good thought, but the first time Dieter ever experimented with water injection was in 1976.

ADD: The cans in 1966 WERE the result of noise and they were the interim between open megaphones and sliding pipes. It was during the time of the cans that Harry Pasturczak came out with his ZAK STAKS.

[Original Looper 1]

I believe the reason why UIM moved to require expansion chamber stingers to be in a downward arching position was to lessen the impact of the engine/pipe/stinger assembly in racing accidents. In other words, to soften the intensity of the impact of the force of the stinger during racing contact in collisions.

thanks,

Paul A Christner

[Jeff Lytle]

I supposed it was about noise suppression, aiming it into the spray . . . .


Considering UIM's tight noise rules, that would be a good reason for pointing the exit tubes downward. I think they (UIM) at one time required something like no more than 85db (or 90, maybe) on a drive-by test at max speed in both directions.

You guys are both on the right track about the noise issue, but I think Wayne and Paul are also onto something...........

[Frank Volker]

Perhaps UIM imposed a dimensional spec stating that no part of the motor or its attachments can extend beyond some datum; for example, the top/center of the transom.

[Donald]

Dieter was just trying to comply with the UIM db rule at that time. His later design was so quiet you could hear the carbs sucking air. They are still made by Konny for use in Europe.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

You guys might be right that it was to deflect the noise down to dissapate it, but it was always my understanding that it was because of safety as Paul had said.

I've only been to three European race courses and two of them were single bouy turns. There may be twenty or more drivers hitting the first turn together and they will all be slowing down considerably to make the turn. Most of the boats I raced against were all laydown cabovers. They run great in rough water and with the drivers body above the deep sponsons they can scrub off speed quite quickly. So just imagine someone in a cabover not quite judging it right and diving off into a bunch of spray. Straight pipes of a boat in front are just about eye level with the boat charging up from behind. I'm sure it does a great deal to reduce db's and that was certainly the reason open megaphones were banned. But I think the initial rule for the bend was safety and noise reduction was a side benefit.

[Tim Chance]

My new 1972 Square Block C had curved down stingers and Scott Smith told me at the time it was to make the motor quiet with the noise pointed down into the water. I had Zak cut 'em off and weld straight pipes on.

[dave dalton]

seems l remember somthing about safety (UIM).aiming down for projectiles escaping.(pieces of pistons,rings or spark plugs.l know l have launched all of these out the pipes!!

[epugh66]

I'm going with the noise supression reason.
As a side note, the inside of Dieters dyno room was lined with different expansion chamber designs. It was also dark, wet and smelled of castor oil.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I seem to remember remarking to Harry Zak about the turned down stingers when they first came out in I don't remember what year, but he said he had been told that it was done as the result of an accident in Europe somewhere when a trailing boat ran into the rear of another and the straight stingers acted as "cookie cutters" on someones body, and they sustained some serious injuries. I don't know any more specifics as that is all he seemed to know also, but supposedly after that accident, UIM acted very quickly to put in a rule having them bent down to eliminate the open end of the stinger acting as a punch on someones flesh, much as the PRO commission at the time in the US made the rule about enclosing the magnets on the Konig CD ignition after one of the Small brothers was injured at a race in Fl. when a flywheel disintergrated while the motor was dry fired on the beach. I don't know where Harry got his information, but he usually didn't say much about a situation unless he was positive about it. When I first saw them I thought the same as an earlier poster, must be to give some tail lift on the boat. Whether there was enough opposite reaction to really make that happen would be interesting to know. Anybody out there do any testing of that theory???, straight versus bent down???

[Mark75H]

Since the earliest pictures I have of expansion chambers show bent pipes rather than straight, I'm pretty certain it was a noise consideration.

Note that both of these motors are from 1961

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Herr Joachim DuCoffre would know. Who out there has an old UIM rulebook?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Wayne:

I sent an E-Mail last evening to Mike Ward. Perhaps he would know something regards this due to his research into UIM past champions, business, ect. Haven't heard anything yet, but he has probably been busy with the OSY WC last weekend as he is the Yamato dealer over there as you probably know. Maybe he will chime in with something on this.

Bill

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I had a e-mail back from Mike Ward today regards the question about straight versus bent down stingers. He indicated he has a photo taken in 1964 at the European Championship showing the motors equipped with the bent down stingers. Later in the early 1980's Dieter introduced the glass pack silencer that is still used today.

Short and sweet, it seems to be that the reason for the bent stingers was for noise reduction mandated by UIM. He did not say whether motors shipped to the US were equipped with straight stingers versus curved after the UIM noise regulation took effect and we did not have any noise regulations here, and I don't really remember if the Konigs and Yamatos sent here had straight stingers, although I know some did have the curved type. Perhaps the straight stingers that we still continued to see were that way on US mfgd pipes. Usually if there is a regulation that has to be met in any group of countries. the mfgr usually just manufacturers everthing the same for cost purposes, no matter where it goes.

Short and sweet, it was a noise and not a safety issue, although the end result would seem to be safer if you ran into someone from the rear.Mike also said he does not ever remember any European boats ever running straight stingers,always curved, so it must be a long standing rule.

SAM RULES.....

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Okay guys...I concede too. And BTW Bill Van...thanks for the pipes for my motor. It is now almost complete.

[rbengines]

Okay guys...I concede too. And BTW Bill Van...thanks for the pipes for my motor. It is now almost complete.

Wayne are you building a Konig too. I just bought a powerhead from Rex Hall and I'm gathering a few part.(250 square block)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

It's my old 700cc Konig that I found here on BRF Rusty. I got most of it back, but some things were missing. Dean Wilson Jr. and Joe Rome gave me original spark plugs, and at the reunion Artie Neadeck gave me a lower unit and of course the pipes from Bill Van. Ray Yates has a prop for me that I haven't picked up yet, so the only thing I lack is a rotary valve belt. Joe can get it for me if someone can supply the dimensions.

[Donald]

I guess this is the place to post this. I came across this photo of a SEBA race in 1956, which shows how Dieter mounted his pipes on the 250 engines. This was the first year that Koenigs were available in the USA, and my engine, which I bought in 1957, came with these straight pipes. I also bought a 350, which did not have pipes at all, but Dieter had them available in 1958, but I opted for the ones Blankstein made that were curved back.

[smittythewelder]

This is remembering way back, but I think the kart guys' solution to the likely substantial discomfort of recieving the end of an expansion chamber stinger in the face was to require everybody to weld a good-sized fender washer around the end of the stinger.

[Gene East]

I guess this is the place to post this. I came across this photo of a SEBA race in 1956, which shows how Dieter mounted his pipes on the 250 engines. This was the first year that Koenigs were available in the USA, and my engine, which I bought in 1957, came with these straight pipes. I also bought a 350, which did not have pipes at all, but Dieter had them available in 1958, but I opted for the ones Blankstein made that were curved back.

A couple of years ago, I mentioned the first German built outboard racing engine I ever saw had the name Koenig cast on the flywheel. This was an "A" motor that was bought by Harold Chambers in 1957. I began working in the pits for Chambers Equipment Co. in 1958

Several people have told me I was mistaken, the name was always spelled Konig.

It feels good to have someone with the credentials of Ralph Donald confirm something I have believed for over 50 years.

Thank you sir!

[Donald]

Gene, to clarify the spelling of Koenig as used in english, we do not have a provision for an umlaut on our keyboard. The umlaut in German is two dots over the o which gives it the ker sound in German as opposed to no umlaut and Koenig should be pronounced kernig in english. Although it is supposed to be pronounced kernig, most still say Konig which is actually König in German. So the correct way to spell König in english is Koenig, but still pronounced kernig. Gee, this sounds aufully convoluted. I hope it makes sense.

[Danny Pigott]

Ralph do you remember where this SEBA race was. I can tell that GC 10 is a A/B Swift Hydro can't tell much about the others. I can remember seeing the A Konig with the pipes in the pic,. seems like one went up and one down.

[Gene East]

Gene, to clarify the spelling of Koenig as used in english, we do not have a provision for an umlaut on our keyboard. The umlaut in German is two dots over the o which gives it the ker sound in German as opposed to no umlaut and Koenig should be pronounced kernig in english. Although it is supposed to be pronounced kernig, most still say Konig which is actually König in German. So the correct way to spell König in english is Koenig, but still pronounced kernig. Gee, this sounds aufully convoluted. I hope it makes sense.

Thank you for the explaination regarding the umlat. Sam Cullis also explained that to me.

Was the e added on some early engines shipped to the US in an attempt to have Americans pronounce the name correctly?

When you spoke with Dieter privately, how did you pronounce his name? What I'm asking is: Was he comfortable with most Americans mis-pronouncing his name, or was it simply a matter of doing business?

I understand Honda is pronounced differently in Japan than it is in the US as well.

In any event Herr Koenig/Konig was a worthy advesary. I had a great respect for him.

[Mark75H]

Yama-toe in Japan

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I don't know about Ralph Gene, but it was probably the same with him. Most of the people I was around that knew Dieter called him Dieter. When it came time for introductions in a crowd of people where some knew him and some didn't it was either in Germany or Austria, and they knew how to correctly pronounce Koenig. I haven't spelled it correctly in all my posts because I have just gone by how his name has been written in English over here for so many decades, but Ralph is correct. Except my pronunciation has a little "ish" on the end. Steve Litzell tells me that's a Berlin thing.

I never recall Dieter being embarrassed or put out by pronunciation of his name and I think if anybody could mess it up, it would be his overseas distributor Scott Smith with his Georgia accent.;):D. But I think most everybody was on a first name basis. Dieter would sometimes call my Dad Mr. Baldwin, but he also called him Baldy.

In the German language my name is hard to pronounce for some. In 1975 Dieter was giving me a tour of Berlin and he spotted a prostitute on the sidewalk. I would not have known, because she wasn't dressed like some you see in the movies. Dieter pointed toward the curb and said "look...there is a prostitute. We will speak to her." He was just wanting to show me the sights and sounds of Berlin. Dieter pulled over and struck up a conversation. He told her I was a boat racer, and came to Berlin from Texas. He told her my name was Wayne, but she could not get it at all. In trying to coax her on Dieter slowly said "Wwaayne....Wwaayne". Remembering Dieter said most Germans have a love for western movies, I said "like John Wayne". Her eyes lit up and with a big smile she replied "Oh! like JOHN Vayne" I said "Yeah."

[Donald]

Wayne, you and Steve are both right. Berliners pronounce Koenig with an ish sound, but nig, I am told is correct. Also another pronunciation peculiar to Berlin is the word for "I", which is correctly pronounced "ish", but in Berlin you will hear icke for I. I have verifyed this with my friend from Berlin, Thomas Wiegrefe, who is visiting Naples now.

[Smokin' Joe]

Thank you for the explaination regarding the umlat. Sam Cullis also explained that to me.

Was the e added on some early engines shipped to the US in an attempt to have Americans pronounce the name correctly?

When you spoke with Dieter privately, how did you pronounce his name? What I'm asking is: Was he comfortable with most Americans mis-pronouncing his name, or was it simply a matter of doing business?

I understand Honda is pronounced differently in Japan than it is in the US as well.

In any event Herr Koenig/Konig was a worthy advesary. I had a great respect for him.

Germans still write oe,ue and ae in passports and other international documents because the symbols ö,ü, and ä don't exist otherwise except in Swedish (Finnish?), not even in Norwegian (although they're easy to make on any Mac). My wife's name is Küffner and I hate it when Americans say 'Kuffner'. I'm betting that Wayne pronounced König correctly since he knew Dieter pretty well and even traveled with him. Here in Texas where the name is common (König/King) the Texas-Germans say 'Ka-nig'. Me, I always say König, even to a 'Ka-nig'.

When the pipes point downward the sound waves reflect off the water, I'm not sure there's a great difference in noise level whether pointed straight back or down.

[Smokin' Joe]

Wayne, you and Steve are both right. Berliners pronounce Koenig with an ish sound, but nig, I am told is correct. Also another pronunciation peculiar to Berlin is the word for "I", which is correctly pronounced "ish", but in Berlin you will hear icke for I. I have verifyed this with my friend from Berlin, Thomas Wiegrefe, who is visiting Naples now.

The pronounciation Königh' with soft 'gh' extends into northern Bavaria as far south as Franken.

[Smokin' Joe]

Yama-toe in Japan

Ya-MA-ha instead of YAmaha.

[Smokin' Joe]

Ya-MA-ha instead of YAmaha.

Well, I'm waiting for parts from SeaWay for several motors, am at loose ends, and you guys haven't given me enough entertainment tonight to get me past 21:31 so I think I'll go read 2 pages of 'Merchants of SPEED' and fall asleep behind the hot rod wheel.

Servos!
Joe