"Name That Outboard"

[Sam La Banco]

Good Answers Bob AND Tim. Here are a few more pictures of the block.

[Sam La Banco]

Tim the increase in volume was in the spacing of the manifold in front of the reed plate.

[Tim Kurcz]

Hey Sam,

Those images tell the "rest of the story" - thanks for sharing. This engine lends itself well to the side mount carb between the transfer passages. It's fun to see someone take full advantage of an engine's potential. Very clever making a radical pontoon boat motor!!!!

Also, thanks for the clarification about CC -vs- manifold volume. The out front spacing makes more sense! Here's to more wild engines on this thread!

Tim

[Sam La Banco]

One more block photo, Here is what the pistons looked like.

[Tim Kurcz]

Looky there....... Pressure fed piston rings to improve contact and the slick vertical passage feeding the cylinders. Not all engines have such features. Still, this is pretty complex machine work. Excellent tricks!

Tim

[Fastjeff57]

Early '70s motorcross engines were all piston ports (other than Yamaha). They made great power but loaded up like crazy if bogged at low rpm. A hydro might have trouble getting on plane with one, but it would go like stink afterward. The main advantage is a clean, open hole for air/ fuel to travel through without the restriction of a reed to open and stuff its way through.

Jeff

[Mark75H]

Early '70s motorcross engines were all piston ports (other than Yamaha). They made great power but loaded up like crazy if bogged at low rpm. A hydro might have trouble getting on plane with one, but it would go like stink afterward. The main advantage is a clean, open hole for air/ fuel to travel through without the restriction of a reed to open and stuff its way through.

Jeff

In the 50's and 60's Konig made successful piston port race motors. The "trouble getting on plane" problem is solved by the prop slipping like a clutch on take off.

[Sam La Banco]

Piston Ports are great, but they work best over a narrow RPM band.

In the case of this motor with the combination of both a piston port and large reed area, the intake timing is spread out over a lot of crank rotation time.

It's able to take quite a gulp with out to much spit back. With the folded meg closed exhaust system, I'm sure Dave has the volume figured out to get a good plugging pulse at the exhaust ports just at the right time to keep it in the cylinders too.

[Tomtall]

Well ------------ I just wanted to jump in here guys and post the answer from the engine builder of "Name That Outboard" engine#16. Some great stories and tech. topic created by this mod build. Keep it coming!:)

The builder has the following to say of what went into this build.


In summary, this is a uniquely modified 32ci OMC, from ~ 1980. The engine is a two cylinder cross-flow with;

*Dual path induction with progressive linkage
*Two barrel carb feeding reeds on the front
*Single barrel carb feeding piston ports on the side
*Low inertia flywheel powering a dual firing ignition system
*Dual spark plug fast burn combustion chamber
*Single ring pistons with pressure ported ring groove
*Each cylinder with paired transfer ports, paired exhaust ports, and single piston port
*Folded expansion chamber tuned exhaust, within the tower housing
*Mercury MK55H 1:1 gearcase

[Tomtall]

I believe this engine has caused more posts than any engine in the BRF "Name that outboard" thread and for good reason. Countless hours went into the R&D of this wicked mod engine and it was ahead of its time. I have one last bach of pictures that have been shared with by sources unknown that show some of the port work that went into this engine. Also a few pic's from Sams posting "Dave's motor made quite an impression at a race in Wis. when we just set it on my boat or Paul Pittmans to see what would happen, it was almost a riot."

Coming up next for engine #17 another Merc. mod engine in the works by noted engine builder Tim Kurcz.

[Sam La Banco]

What's really interesting about this sequence, is what it says about how much Stock Outboards love this stuff.

The Miss Budweiser unlimited boat was on display at the race about 50 yards from where we were pitted, when we hung the motor on......... well you can see what happened.

Most of region 7 showed up, can you name the guys in the pictures?

[champhotrod]

Memory shot!
Sam, I see you, Paul Pittman, Mike Crawford, Tom Kargus, Bill Heberer, Del Snyder (with Kid Kraft cap) Skip Sheleski, Mike Hoffman, Kevin Komorowski,
Len Gerritts?

Cooper Jess

[BPIII125V]

Sam,
what race was that at? is that Dee in the top pic behind the engine?

Bill

[champhotrod]

Bill,
I do not see Dee in the picture. I think that is Mark? somebody next to Heberer.
Tom Kargus is right behind the engine. Pat Quigley and Mitch Sears are in one of the pictures.

Cooper

[champhotrod]

People pictures from Oshkosh

Cooper

[Chip Trampe]

1st Oshkosh picture: Dewey Berghauer behind his nephew Tom Kargus?
2nd Oshkosh picture: John Puestow (Snoopy) in front of Coop on the left side of the group?

[Ron Hill]

I thought that might be Dee wearing glasses.......But I don't see Dewey. Is that John Puesto's head to the left of the guy in the Hot Rod jacket???????

Who is in the Mercury jacket??? Who is in the Hot Rod jacket???

[Sam La Banco]

I'm in the Hot Rod jacket, Dee is keeling down next to the tower housing, if you look you will see him on the lower left.

[Ron Hill]

Yeh, pretty sure that is Dee....Who is the tall guy with glasses in the back???

[Sam La Banco]

Can't remember that guy's name. I also see Warnock, and Palmquist.

[BPIII125V]

in the top people pic, is that Greg Berghauer on the right in the brown jacket?

Bill

[Tom Kargus]

Picture #2:

Kevin Komorowski is the tall blond in the brown jacket on the right.

Jeff "Aynard" Vanstrom is the guy on the right in the blue t-shirt that says "Menasha".

Dennis Zolkoske is the guy in the silver Mercury jacket.

Teddy Evans, Dan's brother is in the camo rain coat with the red/white hat on the right.

I think that is Dick Engler in the beard on the left.

[Tomtall]

OK ----------- Thanks everyone for the naming of people in the last post pictures. You guys got great memories!

Our next engine is in the process of build up by BRF engine builder Tim Kurcz. This is another mod engine Tim is building for the up and coming season. What we need to know is what is Tim building here? Those pipes are wild looking! But check out that induction system in the works. Any ideas what Tim has up his sleeve on this one?

Good Luck!

[JohnsonM50]

Hi Tom,

You've got to love this site! Never heard or seen of this engine before, but somebody knew what they were doing. Definitely an OMC with twin plug heads, a two-bbl front and auxiliary one-bbl at the transfers with a cam linkage. Interesting it has a D-Merc gearcase which tells me it had to make some power. Also, it appears the exhaust is totally enclosed; perhaps an internal expansion chamber? Judging from the boat vintage and the 2-blade prop, I'm guessing it ran early FE taking advantage of the no-minimum weight rules, because it's way too radical for 25Mod........

Tim

Looking again, there are what appear to be three reed plates behind the front carb. Perhaps these are spacers to allow higher reed opening.

Id be afraid to use an AB foot, 3" thumpers at least. The only things that even look like they are where they were are the head, coils & custom flywheel. The pump is moved & was where the aux. carb is. Very cool.

[Tomtall]

OK - Its been a while since we had a engine posted here so here goes.

This engine was recently displayed at the 2009 Fall AOMCI meet at Mark Suters. It is another exotic Mod outboard that has been built over the past 2 years.

Can anyone tell us what the engine is? What mods were made and the brain behind this one of a kind mod outboard engine?

[Lars Strom]

The block is from a 50-60 2 cyl. OMC or..

A OMC fuelpump and ignition.. on a Merc Mid section..
the rest I dont know..but I like it..

Maybe a SST 45 High Perf...

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

The block is from a 50-60 2 cyl. OMC or..

A OMC fuelpump and ignition.. on a Merc Mid section..
the rest I dont know..but I like it..

Maybe a SST 45 High Perf...

By the mystro Tim Kurcz

[Allen J. Lang]

You have to give Tim a lot of credit for what he comes up with. He takes class rules and works from there. Be it OMC or Merc, he is willing to try anything. :D
Ye Olde Desert Geezer Al :cool:

[Tim Kurcz]

Thanks to Lars, John, and Al for responding.

You guys sure pegged me as the builder way too quickly! Based on the images, can determine the modifications? Hint: This is an APBA FE/850 legal engine that began life as a 45SS. Good luck!

Tim

[Tomtall]

Well they did good didn't they Tim. Of course not to many people do work like yours either. OK lets try and figure out what Tim built here.

[Jeff Akers]

Well lets see, we have carbs and throttle body's from an OMC V- ? looper, A custom billet intake manifold, twin fuel pumps/with a manual primer,The tower and expansion chamber are custom pieces mated to a 45 gearcase. The ignition and cylinder head is were things get a little tricky. It looks like he's running dual OMC 2cyl power packs going to four dual OMC coil assemblies and then to the "custom 8 plug head". The main thing I don't understand is were the other two sets of ignition primary leads are coming from. Unless he has just spliced into each of the existing leads coming from each pack...... It will be interesting to know why you thought it needed 8 plugs to fire the little beast:eek:

Interesting Ideas Tim, I would love to try it out on my boat to see what it would do in comparison to my 3 cylinder.:D

[Powerabout]

There is another thread on this head courtesy of Tim
I asked about the ignition on that

[Mark75H]

This is an APBA FE/850 legal engine that began life as a 45SS.

I see more than the 2 carbs that the 44.9 twin is limited to in 850/FE

[Tomtall]

I see more than the 2 carbs that the 44.9 twin is limited to in 850/FE

Sam - Are you sure there are 4 carbs. here. Look at the 90 hp OMC parts list and see what part is called the carb.;)

[Mark75H]

Hmmm ... so Tim intends to use the parts list description and the fact that they have a single shaft to claim they are tall 2 barrel carbs meeting the letter of "that same manufacturer's carburetors"

[Tomtall]

Yes I believe that is his intent. The block that the throttle shaft goes thru is called the carburetor in the parts description.

[Tim Kurcz]

Jeff has most of the hardware correct (carbs are from an OMC 90HP V-4) except the inlet manifold is a casting - fully machined for weight reduction. The midsection is my copy of Rich Welch's six cylinder Parker box tower, improved with a vernier thrust control similar to the 45SS, but on a Merc clamp & swivel. It uses a yoke to encircle the pivot pin, but why? And we all recognize the 45SS gearcase; fast, bullet proof, and parts are readily available.

As for ignition, the second set of ignition primaries are indeed spliced. But can you explain how it fires 4 plugs per cylinder? The next question is what benefit might 4 plugs (firing simultaneously) do for the engine and why?

Sam is concerned that there are four carbs instead of two. The parts list clearly shows that each two barrel is only one carb, and FE/850 rules clearly state two of "any OMC make/model carburetor" for this powerhead. These just happen to be vertical instead of horizontal shaft. But why choose these?

There are a few other mysteries yet to be identified. Keep thinking and see where the images take you. Good luck!

Tim

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

From the time I first got interested in racing engines of all kinds, I read everything I could find about the proprietor of the "Best Damn Garage in Town", Smokey Yunick. For all those who followed NASCAR and INDY CAR in the years after WWII and into the 80's, he was the leader in ingenious interpretation of whatever rule books governed whatever type racing he was involved in. He was mostly involved with 4 strokes, but lots of what he theorized about and came up with had possible applications with 2 strokes also. He was a mastermind at getting out of the rule book what would benefit him, and usually those loopholes went right over everyone elses head. He really was an innovator and original thinker. If you want more information about one of the most innovative mechanic/builders in the history of internal combustion engines, there are several books, including his autobiography available. I am sure if you googled his name, much information about him could be found. Harry Pasturczak, who many who frequent this forum have heard of and knew, was much the same type thinker insofar as getting the maximum from an engine, by trying unusual and out of the box thinking and modification.


All that being said, I have read, and looked at pictures of engines that Tim Kurz has built that have information about them published on BRF. I especially was interested in Sam's comment about the carb being used on the most recent engine shown, and then Tom's comments about the whole assembly being called a "carb" not withstanding it having two barrels or venturi's. This type of rule interpretation by Tim is worthy of coming from Smokey himself, and this is what more of is needed in boat racing today. I especially would like to see Tim Kurz spend some time on a PRO engine, as his original thinking, factory like workmanship, and general engineering knowhow are obvious from the information and pictures posted about his engines on this thread. At this time anyway, most of the engine builders for the PRO Category are competitors themselves, and there is always the thought you don't get everything from someone building your engine that you also compete against. Human nature at work again.

I wish I had known about him after Harry passed away in the early 90's, if he was doing this type work then, as I surely would have wanted him to try some things with my RB engines.

[Allen J. Lang]

Hi Tim- Can you hear the gears turning as they try to figure out what you devised? Who gets the honors of testing? What else do you have up your sleeve?
Al :cool:

[Powerabout]

Jeff has most of the hardware correct (carbs are from an OMC 90HP V-4) except the inlet manifold is a casting - fully machined for weight reduction. The midsection is my copy of Rich Welch's six cylinder Parker box tower, improved with a vernier thrust control similar to the 45SS, but on a Merc clamp & swivel. It uses a yoke to encircle the pivot pin, but why? And we all recognize the 45SS gearcase; fast, bullet proof, and parts are readily available.

As for ignition, the second set of ignition primaries are indeed spliced. But can you explain how it fires 4 plugs per cylinder? The next question is what benefit might 4 plugs (firing simultaneously) do for the engine and why?

Sam is concerned that there are four carbs instead of two. The parts list clearly shows that each two barrel is only one carb, and FE/850 rules clearly state two of "any OMC make/model carburetor" for this powerhead. These just happen to be vertical instead of horizontal shaft. But why choose these?

There are a few other mysteries yet to be identified. Keep thinking and see where the images take you. Good luck!

Tim
Your trying to get it to meet current emission regs?
Your running nitro and thats hard to light and burns slow?

Charge coil split to a pak on either side, coil output split to the '2 coil paks' and one on each side = 4
Triggers obviously split as well
Easy to make staggered throttle with those vertical shafts.
How fast does it idle with all those butterflys or are the stb set customs?
Great job Tim

[Tim Kurcz]

To Bill, Thank you for such a thoughtful post. I'm honored and humbled to be compared to Smokey - I've read his book - and like you pointed out, develop what the rules don't restrict. The 45SS twin "Piranha" is one of my finest examples.

It will be developed in the tank this winter, ready for the lake next spring. The goal is 2hp/cubic inch which will put it in league with most triples. At 40# lighter and shorter, this engine on a D-mod hydro with a light driver will be quite competitive in FE/850, especially on tight courses.

Though I've never modified a late model alky, I've had the Quincy's and Parker loopers apart. As Al Lang pointed out - it doesn't matter what engine make or displacement, there is almost always room for improvement - depending on the rules. If you've got a PRO that needs help I'll be glad to look at it.

Thanks again, you made my day! Tim

PS: If you look closely at Tom's photo's you'll see the progressive carb linkage neatly in place. Also you're right - I always build a little edge into my own equipment.

[Tim Kurcz]

For Powerabout, Good try - Emissions control is not a goal, and mods run on gas & oil. Hint: 4-plugs will deliver a faster burn. Otherwise you're right, the spark is split between two fully independent ignition systems, actually cross firing two plugs in opposite cylinders to accomplish the light-off. The question stands: What is the theory behind the multiple plugs?

Tim

[Powerabout]

Tim
The burn will be faster as you say plus the flame front travel will be shorter as the plugs are closer to the cylinder wall.
More complete burning to help prevent a lean detonate?
Small plug gap so shorter rise time before firing so less chance of missfire?

I dont really know the multiple plug story in a 2 stroke never read the SAE paper on that.
I see 2nd Effort did them for their V8's but I dont know why,
along with Land & Sea.
Cheers

[Tim Kurcz]

Burn rate is faster indeed. Though it may have some effect on resistance to detonation, that is not the intent. Hint: Faster burn allows a shorter spark lead (advance). Why bother?

[Powerabout]

then you wont need a spark retard device at high rpm but gain the low end with the correct tiiming at that rpm and therefore less sensitive to exhaust tuning as well?

Easier to pull start when using fixed advance?

[Tim Kurcz]

If we could light off the mixture later because of multi-point ignition, say at 10 degrees BTDC instead of 20, it makes sense there will be less energy lost overcoming rising cylinder pressures BTDC.

[Mark75H]

Isn't the same thing often achieved with turbulence?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Tim:

The reason I mentioned the PRO category as one you might look toward to further showcase your talents, is there is no rule book (per se) to get in the way of creative, original thinking, other than the CC displacement limits of the individual class you want to work with, insofar as engine/motor mods. Even though it is always fun and I am sure you get a great kick out of "working" the rule book in the MOD category, you can still have the "in the spirit of the rule" thing bite you if the Technical Committee you have to deal with decides you went too far and makes your modifications illegal, even though they meet the "letter of the rule", just because they don't want someone running away from the competition for whatever reason, ala NASCAR these days.

I appreciate your kind offer of engine help, but my racing days are over. I did manage some accomplishments, met a lot of good folks (some of whom even still talk to me, no matter the "radio rule" controversy several years back) and all in all had a great time being involved in boat racing from the mid 50's until 2004.

Good Luck in your future engine building and racing endeavours. With the type workmanship and thought process that goes into your engines, you can't help but be successful. I will look forward to seeing more of what you come up with in the future.

[Tim Kurcz]

Here's my best to catch up on all.

For Al and Jeff, I'm driving this one with assistance from Jim Robb, Jason Hay, and Rich Welch. This will follow careful indoor tank testing this winter to sort out the bugs.

For Sam, I have no knowledge of combustion turbulence theory, but know spark timing and flame front are controllable; something I can develop with less than factory tools and funding.

For Bill; Again, I'm humbled by your thoughtful and eloquent post. Engine design and development developed into a passion in the mod division primarily because alkys were way beyond my reach. Mentors were Bud Parker, Harry Brinkman, Harry O'Brien, and Mercury master mechanic John Carlsen - mostly stock/mod guys. My goal is to build on their teachings and support the sport with ever improved engine technology. Gotta tell you, in the few races where I raced the Mod with alkys, I found the sweet smell of castor and alcohol, well intoxicating! That said, shoud the opportunity ever arise, I'll most certainly take a shot at alky building.

In case any answers were missed, I'll take a shot at it later. Thanks to all for your interest and comments. I'll post performance detail as it develops.

[Tomtall]

Tim - Thanks for allowing me to share your project on the net. It's always fun to post your exotic mods here on BRF.

Here is the spec. sheet Tim had posted with his new build at the fall meet.:cool:

[RogerH]

Tim,
I'm still very curious about your very innovative ignition. I recently got the Wilbur Weeks dual plug heads firing on the Johnson RS by using one trigger firing the two CD modules, but used the dual coils, wired in series, per cylinder. Your approach is different as you have dual modules and coils per cylinder, and they are not wired in series as a result. Each module charges two coils, but split between the two dual coils. Is that correct? Thus the two modules charge all four coils (per cyl). This maximizes the spark energy by maintaining the energy (saturation) to the coil that the system was designed to deliver. With a new trigger system, you could "offset" the trigger to one module slightly to get more dwell, but that might be problematic to do within the confines of the flywheel. I still am "nervious" about the "alternator" type of CD system, but they seem to work very well.
If you are doing what I think you are, this shows the flywheel magnetics are able to trigger two CD modules in parallel. The way I did the RS shows the CD module is able to charge two coils in series. Your solution is electrically superior as the energy delivered to the sparkplug is maximized. I really need to test my system at max. RPM to know I have enough saturation in the coil to produce enough spark. Wilbur ran this system with good results, so will give it a try. Otherwise I've got to invest in two more CD modules and do what you have done. Don't have pictures I can access now, but can add them when I get home tomorrow if interested.
Bill, you have a lot of experience with ignitions, what's your take? Another great project Tim!
Roger

[Tim Kurcz]

Hi Roger,

In this case, there are two fully independent OMC CD2 ignition systems mounted under the flywheel 180 degrees apart - as close as tolerances permit. As each CD2 primary is capable of firing only one paired coil, the Piranha relies on the two systems firing two plugs each phased 180 degrees apart. This provides simultaneous spark for all four plugs.

My guess is your twin plug six can use the same method with split primaries to 12 individual or 6 paired coils. Good luck!

Tim

[RogerH]

Tim, I want to understand your terminology "split primary". I see that the dual coils are bolted (grounded) to a mounting bar. By split primary, are you attaching each primary wire to two coils, with one connection to each of the two dual coils per cylinder? If so, this puts those two coils in series with each other. I did the effectively the same thing by useing a nylon bolt to isolate one of the coils from the other in the dual coil package.
Isn't terminology great!!! Makes it hard to explain.

[Tim Kurcz]

Piranha coils are fired in parallel by a split (spliced) primary lead. The only trick for this application is using two fully independent CD2's 180 degrees apart to fire four plugs at once.

Your six should be easy by comparison; simply split the primary and feed both coils.

[Powerabout]

Interestingly one system halves the pak to coil resistance and the other doubles it.
I wonder which one the pak prefers?

[Tim Kurcz]

For Roger, Powerabout, et al.

Easy tests are to use an inductive timing light on each spark plug lead while the engine is running; this proves function and timing. You cross check with an inductive tach to confirm each system is delivering the same rpm.
These tests will tell you if you're actually firing 2 (or 4) plugs and at the correct time.

[Tim Kurcz]

Here are a few views of the Piranha rigged for testing - if only the weather would cooperate. It looks small for the boat!

[RogerH]

Interestingly one system halves the pak to coil resistance and the other doubles it.
I wonder which one the pak prefers?

Tim & others,
This is exactly what's been bugging me. With the coils in series, they both see the same amount of current. This provides the same maximum current to both coils that the CD is able to provide (given the combined resistance of both coils). With the coils in parallel each coil gets half of the available current from the CD. That current may be larger, as the coils in parallel will have half the resistance of the coils in series. This may be a wash as magnetic flux is directly proportional to the current, not the voltage. I thingkthat Powerabout is asking a good question. What does the power-pac "like". Neither application is what it was designed to do. The corresponding question is which wiring (series / parallel) provides the best spark at RPM. All I know is that Freddy Webb told me that Wilbur Weeks definitley advised that the coils should be wired in series for the dual plug heads on the RS. Hey Bill, can you provide some advice on this???

[RogerH]

Here are a few views of the Piranha rigged for testing - if only the weather would cooperate. It looks small for the boat!

Tim, Very impressive!!! Why am I not surprised, everything you do is excellent and full of detail! Let me know when you will be racing this, I'll try to get there.

[Tim Kurcz]

Hi Roger,

I understand your concern and need clarification. How exactly are you wiring the coils in series?

[Powerabout]

It would be easy with the old style coils with external earths/pigtails i guess?

[RogerH]

Hi Roger,

I understand your concern and need clarification. How exactly are you wiring the coils in series?

Tim, I'm glad you see the "concern". I don't know anyone intimate enough with these CD systems to inquire to.

Here's a picture of the RS from the back. Note the "white" nylon 1/4x20 bolts holding the coil to the bracket. This isolates one side of the coil from ground and then I jumper (split) the primary to that point. Thus the one primary fires both coils in series. I have not run this motor but have used a pull rope to verify that all of the plugs are firing appropriately.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Roger:

I remember well the conversations we had about a year ago about aftermarket CD ignitions systems available and how they might be adapted to a specific engine you were working with at that time. That being said, I have absolutely NO experience with the OMC ignitions that Tim is working with, or any experience of a similar type setup to accomplish what he is doing with the engine shown in his most recent posts. The only engines I ever worked with that had two triggers firing 180 apart are the Phelan type used on Konigs and I also used that type on my RB that was only two cylinder but of course fired 180 apart (one cyl) instead of two at the same time like with the 4 cyl Konig.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Bill

ADD: We did have a programmable CD/battery excited ignition on a 125 engine also. Worked will but only a single cylinder with one trigger and one coil.

[F-12]

The only thing I remember was a test from OMC training school. Whenever there was an issue with components, you get a 5 gallon bucket of water and throw all the parts into the bucket. All the parts that would float were good.........

Roger, you always have the best toys.

[Tim Kurcz]

Hey Roger,

Got busy preping for winter..... Now that the ignition system is all figured out, how about posting some images of the front of your RS and the whole boat? Looks like a tunnel to me.

Tim

[RogerH]

Hey Roger,

Got busy preping for winter..... Now that the ignition system is all figured out, how about posting some images of the front of your RS and the whole boat? Looks like a tunnel to me.

Tim

I am getting close to getting the boat and motor ready. Trying to have it for the Florida Spring events. It is a Ranato Molinari 17' hull that John Hervat says he pained for Phil O'berry in 1970. I know that Randy Gore and Rudy Foote drove the boat, although I have not been able to contact either of them. Freddie Webb (AL) sold me the motor (two powerheads) and he had purchased the NOS gearcase from Pete Nydahl. Per our previous discussion I'm running a larger bore Wilbur Weeks preped block and have the RS block also. I'm finishing one exhaust filler block that was warped beyond repair to complete the motor. I have the boat ready for Gary Pugh to put new decks on and have prepped the interior already. I re-rigged the boat for a show before the hull restoration was started. It was structurally sound everywhere but had been outside for years (in NY) and the deck top layer delaminated in a zillion spots. Should be a "simple" put it back together once the paint is finished. Will paint it the same scheme, shy of the lettering and keep the cancer ad, as Phil died of cancer. The Johnson RS and Evinrude CCC are the same motor except for their colors - and super rare. I believe they started in 1976 but their usage was shortened with the advent of the V8. Gary Pugh thinks the boat is newer than 1970, but John Hervat was quite sure of the timeframe he painted the boat. It's never had anything but an RS midsection bolted to the transom for sure. I tend to agree with Gary that the shape of the boat indicates it more inline with the mid-late 70's (when the RS became available) than 1970. What year do others think the boat is???

[RogerH]

I believe this is Keith Scotton's boat in Texas. I don't have any contact info for Keith or I'd ask him if he knows the year of his boat. They look identical to me. Keith, you out there???

[Tim Kurcz]

Wow Roger,

A very cool ride! I've never seen the RS unshrouded - looks like 1-3/16" venturi two bbls, or are they 1-3/8"? It's incredible this was built in the 70's. Must be a 100 mph ride - what fun!

Tim

[Tim Chance]

Wow Roger,

A very cool ride! I've never seen the RS unshrouded - looks like 1-3/16" venturi two bbls, or are they 1-3/8"? It's incredible this was built in the 70's. Must be a 100 mph ride - what fun!

Tim

I saw one unshrouded. It was at one of the Billy Seebold tunnel boat races here in Saint Louis back in the Mercury vs. OMC days during the 70's. I was a turn judge and an OMC guy blew over in my corner and blew the engine cowl off so the powerhead was right there in plain site.

You should have seen the OMC brass when they towed the boat in. Yelling "cover it up, cover it up." I think Charlie Strang would have had me arrested just for looking at it if he could. But really it meant nothing to me, all I knew is that it didn't look much like my Konig.

[Powerabout]

Nice Roger
even got the original postive engaging solenoid on the starter.
We had quiet a few in OZ back in the day.
Still got the harmonic balancer on the crank?
Cheers

( I guess quite a few shared amongest 18 million is a relative term...)

[RogerH]

Nice Roger
even got the original postive engaging solenoid on the starter.
We had quiet a few in OZ back in the day.
Still got the harmonic balancer on the crank?
Cheers

( I guess quite a few shared amongest 18 million is a relative term...)

Powerabout,
When I bought the motor it was in pices and came with two blocks. The original RS block does have the harmonic balancer and I decided not to run that block out of fear of destroying it (the crank). The block you see there is the next larger bore (think it was the 225hp version) and it doesn't have the harmonic balancer. This caused some problems I'm glad I found out early. The harmonic balancer on the RS crank is about 1.1" longer than the standard crank. This didn't allow enough engagement of the driveshaft in the RS lowerunit. I decided to have the gearcase splined and made two stub shafts that will work with either block. Chris Carson did the work, and said that was the hardest drive shaft he had ever worked on.
I'm anxious to get the motor running and to drive the outfit. Headed for the APBA and other Vintage events with it. Went to the APBA driver's school to drive a SST120 to get ready. Great FUN!!! What a ride.

[RogerH]

Wow Roger,

A very cool ride! I've never seen the RS unshrouded - looks like 1-3/16" venturi two bbls, or are they 1-3/8"? It's incredible this was built in the 70's. Must be a 100 mph ride - what fun!

Tim

Tim, the carbs are 1-3/16. They were a unique P/N for the RS & CCC. They seemed very basic inside but have no idea if there were any "tricks" there.

I drove a Seebold SST120 in Dayton this year to get ready. Chris Fairchild warned me this vintage boat won't turn like the Seebold does. Love the 4G's in the turns! What a blast. Takes some getting used to, as it feels like it would barrel roll if it were a hydro.

[Powerabout]

I always wondered why the RS/CCC used horizontal twin barrels when after 20+ years of V4 work they worked out this was the way to go?
( cost??)

[RogerH]

Powerabout,
Just a guess on my part, but I'm thinking that the geometry given the narrower V required the carbs to be vertical vs horizontal. I'm not sure if the spacing of the cylinders on the opposite banks is less also. Note that the 90 degree V RS/CCC has a lot of distance between cylinders. I think they were trying to package the V4 as tight as possible in height and width.
Roger
PS: Cost reduction is a given - LOL! It's very hard (if not impossible) to do it right AND cheap.

[Glenn Coates]

Perhaps there is one here that you don't have in your collection. I saw this for sale on Kijiji . Joe @905-964-6002. $40 each

Glenn

[Skoontz]

Perhaps there is one here that you don't have in your collection. I saw this for sale on Kijiji . Joe @905-964-6002. $40 each

Glenn

The one standing up all the way to the left on the wall....Is that a 22 cubic inch OMC? If so where are you at and what will it cost to ship...

[capnzee]

It appears there are three engines standing against the white back drop. The one to the left seems to be a 2 cyl Mercury from the early 50's. Could be a 7 1/2 hp merc rocket or hurricane or it could be a 10hp lightning, hurricane or super 10 hurricane. The engine in the center looks to be a small 2 cylinder OMC of 3 to 5 horsepower with a 360 degree swivel for fwd and reverse. That would put it in the very early 50's or maybe even 49. The engine to the right appears to be an OMC "big twin". It may be a "36" cu. in. because of the solid mounts below the swivel pin. Just a guess but I grew up in the 50's and these were the engines I grew up with. :) Rod

[Skoontz]

I meant to say, standing on the right side of wall....The tower housing looks like a 22 cu in OMC, so does the recoil

[JohnsonM50]

I meant to say, standing on the right side of wall....The tower housing looks like a 22 cu in OMC, so does the recoil

I think its a 22 also,the angle where the watered exhaust exits is the give away on the mid. Could be an 18, 20 or 25 of quite a few years.

[Glenn Coates]

I thought the one in front of the Ford lawn tractor was the most interesting.

[Rotary John]

Perhaps there is one here that you don't have in your collection. I saw this for sale on Kijiji . Joe @905-964-6002. $40 each

Glenn

The blue & white motor in the front with "MAC" on it appears to be the MAC 10 Wankel outboard. It used a Ficthel and Sachs rotary and was made by an Italian firm. Its quite a collectors piece.

[TBuck2003]

Roger cool project for sure. That is for sure not built in 1970, for a lot of reasons. I would say that is somewhere between 1974 -1976 leaning towards 75 or 76. Nothing power wise in 1970 was even close to that power,and the boats were built with a lot of lift in them primarily for V-4s 99ci and inlines good to about the 100mph range with that power. A boat from that era with V-6 CCC would of been a deathtrap immediately. The pickleforks and rear cowl also scream out mid seventies. Awesome Find !!!!!

[Mark75H]

I agree with you and Gary Pugh, the boat is much newer than 1970.

[Lars Strom]

R. Molinari switched from Mercury to Evinrude 1977..and changed the design
of the boats at the same time..

I am pretty sure the boat is from 1977 or newer..

[Mini Max]

One of Two

[Mark75H]

If you can name the owners and locations, I'll go with 2.

[Mini Max]

I have confirmation on one, and was also told by Ronald Lietha that he was offered one to buy, but had not the interest at that time. Just don't know if it was the same one or different.

A note from Bernie Bergen suggests its reasonable that there may be another. In response to my asking.......


Not a clue - I didn't get there until 1965 - we did have a locked "vault" up in the barn but the few times I was in there I don't remember seeing anything like this.
This probably would have come out of Oshkosh Plant 6, which was torn down about 10 years ago.
I would believe that there would have been this welded proto, then something cast to prove out the sand molding for fill, porosity, etc. and then used for dyno work and finally boat test. Interesting though -

[Mark75H]

Pretty sure you will find that there is one

[Mini Max]

Not many of these around either.

[BILL HOCTOR]

:confused: SAAB>>>>>CRESCENT???????????

[Mini Max]

Not Swedish. The name is written clearly on top of the Flywheel.

Oh, I forgot to post that picture.

[Mark75H]

But it is European. ;) The next version of this motor was one of the first to have expansion chambers

Its a 500cc motor and it won the European and World Championships when it was equipped with chambers.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Carniti??

[Mini Max]

The motor is displayed in the entrance to Fabio Buzzi's factory in Italy. One of his engineers designed it when working for Carniti. The guys in the machine shop there have another not so racy engine in line for restoration.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Thanks for the confirmation. I thought I had seen a picture (s) some time ago of that motor, but could not for the life of me remember the name, so I called my friend Ralph Donald, who is the only active boat racer I know well, older than I, that I thought might be familiar with it, especially with all the European racing he has done for the last 30 or so years. After I described it, he mentioned Carniti, and then I remembered the name. Looks like motors are still manufactured under the Carniti name, only they all look to be diesels, or at least I did not see any gas engines. Seem to be quite well thought of in the diesel variety. The "V" configuration is not all that unusual, but that is the first one I have seen with the cylinders pointing forward. If that was a "one off" as you seem to indicate, or if several were built by Carniti, the person who designed/built it put a lot of time into it as it looks to be very professionally done, especially the header casting (at least looks to be a casting) and how they join into what looks to be also a cast tower housing. Normally castings are not used unless it is thought there will be a good number of motors sold, because of the mold cost. I wonder which came first, that idea, or the 20H "toilet bowl" idea.

As Sam mentioned, there might have been models with expansion chambers?? Any photo's of those?

[Mark75H]

The 20H came first. There are pictures of the Carniti with pipes here on BRF

http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2537 and on some other threads

I think total production of all versions of these was less than a dozen. Seems to me the Europeans say there were only 5 of the motors with pipes. I was surprised to see this version with the closed up exhaust.

[Mini Max]

These are some cropped shots of my baby.
I believe that this particular engine was never run except in a tank 60 yrs ago and 6 yrs ago.

[G-10 Brian]

Is it a Martin "60" Hi-speed ?

[JohnsonM50]

Is it a Martin "60" Hi-speed ?
It does have a righty prop,

[Mini Max]

Correct. This was a no serial number experimental factory engine. The twist grip decal was a bit of an insider laugh. No water pump so notice the forced cooling water holes on the leading edge of the foot. I used to read the old Mechanix Illustrated boat building issues like most kids read comic books and the "Yellow Jacket" was one of my favorites. It was powered with a "High Speed 60" I never actually saw a Martin where I grew up until this one appeared.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I remember the Martin motors from the mid 50's when I first got interested in boat racing, but there were not any in the area I first started (Arkansas). I remember some articles in "Boat Sport", maybe even tests, and I seem to remember they used poppet valves for the intake like a 4 stroke automobile engine, and then of course the regular type ports that are visible in the photos for the exhaust. The location of the holes for cooling water in the upper portion of the lower unit would indicate you could not run the motor very high, or you would lose cooling water, unless there are some more water inlets on the bottom of the torpedo that are not visible in the photo.

What is the purpose of what looks to be a needle valve of some sort just below the cylinder head on the left hand side of the rear view of the engine photo? Can't really see where the copper tube goes from there. Is that an adjustment for more or less cooling water to the block and heads in some way?

We always heard the Martin would give the Merc's of that vintage a hard way to go, but there were never any around to confirm that information in our area. Also not much stock racing period, as most was NOA Division 1 or IV. Can't remember now which was which, but remember that one was "alky" and one was stock, and most of the racing in our area was what is now Mod and alky. Maybe it was division III and IV, just don't remember.

Thanks for the photos. Brings back some nice memories of a fun time in my life.

[Mini Max]

This Martin 200 was an example of a no serial number factory race motor also.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

That motor looks like it just came off the assembly line!! Have you run it on the boat it is hanging on, and if so what kind of speed? Also have you had a Merc on the same boat and how did it compare. We always heard that the Martin was at least as good and maybe even superior to the Merc of the time, but politics might have had some impact on whether the motor was given a fair shot in the approval process. I don't remember anything about that aspect of the situation. If you have info about that it would be very interesting and add to the history of the time about the Martin motor.

[Mark75H]

The Korean War was the big problem. When aluminum was taken back off the restricted list, ACCOUNTANTS at Presto screwed George Martin. I would not be surprised if there was not some payoff from big Carl.

As far as speed ... that's why Merc came out with the 20H ... the racing 200's were equal or better than the KG7H.

Don't confuse the fishing 200 with a nose cone with the racing 200's like this one ... not the same beast


A motor without a serial number could not have been raced at APBA or NOA races while Martin was in business ... but could probably race at the local races near the Martin plant where many of the famous Martin wins took place. This changed a few years later to allow Mark30H clones to be raced in Stock.

[G-10 Brian]

Sam, I don't think there were any fishing 200's. They were all Hi Speed with 1/1 gears in the lower units. They came with round nose cones, a standard length tower housing and a small two blade aluminum prop. The pointed nose cone and short tower adapter and drive shaft were factory add ons. This engine was made to compete with the KG-7Q and KG-7H and the 15 Champion Hot Rod. Do you know of anyone who actually owns a Martin 200 with a fishing lower unit? Gear shift, 3 blade prop etc.

[Mark75H]

Round nose 15:16 non shift motors were fishing Martin 200's ... see, you've already fallen into the trap George set

At the time the 200's were made, there weren't many FGS motors ... the 200 did not stand out as it does today. Just because it is not have full gearshift does not make it a race motor.

The short tower & driveshaft could be retrofitted to a fishing 200, but they came std on the race motors from the factory.

The race motors have a different model number from the fishing motors

[G-10 Brian]

So what exactly was George's "Trap"? 1/1 gears and a small aluminum two blade prop must have been a poor performer on a fishing boat!

[Mark75H]

All you have to do is prop it down ... no performance problem at all. Boats were nowhere near the size of today, practically no one would have put a Martin on a barge.


He made you think his fishing motor was faster than it really was

[G-10 Brian]

Did the factory offer different props? Can you think of any other 20hp fishing motors that had 1/1 gears? Was Martin working on a full gearshift lower unit for the 200 when the company went out of business? If I remember I'll ask George's son-in-law next time I talk to him.

Very interesting thread on the forgotton motors, keep the pictures coming!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark75H]

I think the Champion fishing motors had pretty high ratios, pretty close to the Martin 15:16 ratio

Merc fishing motors mostly used 16:21 which was later successfully used on the 20H in racing

I believe Martin was working on a FGS version .... he saw the writing on the wall that FGS would become standard a few years down the road.

Again, lack of shift and ratio alone do not make a motor a race motor. The pitch of the aluminum prop supplied on the 200's is completely appropriate for fishing. Ask the next time you see him.

[JohnsonM50]

I think the Champion fishing motors had pretty high ratios, pretty close to the Martin 15:16 ratio

Merc fishing motors mostly used 16:21 which was later successfully used on the 20H in racing

I believe Martin was working on a FGS version .... he saw the writing on the wall that FGS would become standard a few years down the road.
I saw a Martin 200 basket case at an AOMCI meet. The block was very light & had large square ports & poppet valves. A pal bought & restored it nice. I think the gears were about 14 or 15:19. Its a fishing motor but fairly quick on his hydro.

[G-10 Brian]

I don't think fishermen were the "Target Market" for the Martin "200", I think the engine was aimed at the performance enthusiast, the guy that wanted a fast boat, you know like all the ones on BRF!

[Mark75H]

Look at the ads for the 200 ... and ask George's son-in-law

[Mini Max]

I would give my left nut for this engine.

[Mini Max]

I would give the right nut for this one.

http://www.forumpictureprocessor.com/pictureprocessor/images/150MPH%20engine.jpg

[Tomtall]

If I understand your last two posts correctly then, IF you could have these two engines AND if you gave up what you said you would to get them that would make you a ----------

"Eunuch". 1. A man with his balls (testes) removed. Often used in royal courts to guard female royalty and concubines. 2. A man who is incapable of reproduciton. 3. A guy who doesn't seem to be interested in women, but also excluding homosexuality. They are just not the dating type. 4. A gutless wonder. 5. The third sex. The Non-sex.


That's just wrong ------- I don't care how cool those engines are. :D

[Jeff Lytle]

Oh what guys will say!

Nice engines!

[JohnsonM50]

[QUOTE=Tomtall;96114]If I understand your last two posts correctly then, IF you could have these two engines AND if you gave up what you said you would to get them that would make you a ----------

"Eunuch". 1. A man with his balls (testes) removed. Often used in royal courts to guard female royalty and concubines. 2. A man who is incapable of reproduciton. 3. A guy who doesn't seem to be interested in women, but also excluding homosexuality. They are just not the dating type. 4. A gutless wonder. 5. The third sex. The Non-sex.


That's just wrong ------- I don't care how cool those engines are. :D


Right! :eek: not to mention no longer having stones to go :o or be the 'nut' behind the wheel :rolleyes: at least they could no longer bust-um :D

[Mini Max]

Wasn't this thread "Name that outboard" ?

If no one recognizes one famous and one unknown but should be famous engine, then

How about naming a Big Johnson?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Would the second engine pictured with the single megaphone be the V-4 OMC that set the absolute outboard record (at the time) with Gerry Walin driving?

[Jeff Lytle]

How about naming a Big Johnson?

Nice PR! :D

[Mini Max]

Johnson PR-50

This is the left nut engine.

The right nut engine is going to take some head scratching as that is an unpublished photo except for one time by Sam Cullis.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Johnson PR-50

This is the left nut engine.

The right nut engine is going to take some head scratching as that is an unpublished photo except for one time by Sam Cullis.

They both are V-4 OMC (Johnson or Evinrude) powerheads. I believe the first might even had beean 89 c.i. & the second was a 99 c.i.

[Mark75H]

John is correct on both. The single pipe 99ci motor has been seen in other pictures but never close up like that pic shows it.

[Mini Max]

Starflite Too is in existence with a tower and foot only. I would surmise that "Too's" power head went to Starflite III with a new tower and foot. Starflite IV would then have had a new power head with also a new tower and foot. I thought I understood that Hubbell made 3 of the down angle foots for the project. The above accounts for 3 down angle Hubbell foots.

I have a more common Hubbell overdrive lower unit that was allegedly for a Bedford Davie speed record attempt, but the boat was too scary. anyone have info on that premise?

[hydroplay]

I can't remember which of the Starflite boats was on display at the Milwaukee airport for years. As a kid, i didn't get to fly much but occasionally went to the airport with my dad. I think it was one with 4 long megaphones. OMC had their hanger right next to the commercial area at the MKE airport and did get to fly a bit on their KingAir when I was older. Also saw one of the Starflite boats in general storage in Waukegan when working on A and 45SS stuff. Maybe it was the same boat?

[Mini Max]

Identifying the evinrude 99 inch outboard.

Karen Black in Five Easy Pieces" blinked her come hither eyes at Jack Nicholson and smiled saying "Hint" "Hint"

The attachment photo was named 150 mph engine.bmp

Hint, Hint ;-)

[Mini Max]

No definition on the 99 cu inch OMC? You have seen it a hundred times but not realized it.

Its not this motor.

[Powerabout]

would I be right in saying if it had a distributor it was 89 and if it was mag cd it was 99?

[Tim Kurcz]

That movie was 1970, but the engine shown appears to be an earlier model. What gives?

Tim

[buff5]

Hi: Anyone got one for sale?, can be complete, running to a basket case or parts. Can pay cash or trade some interesting early50's Mercs, Wizards, or even racing stuff, up, down or sideways. Pics & price please. buff10@charter.net
Thanks

[Skoontz]

The 99's had CD breakerless ignitions, under the flywheel. Dad had a few quite choice words when someone left a key on and he touched a plug wire.... 50/60/75 HP V-4s had that rectangular distributor as shown in the pics, 80/100HP v-4's had a round distributor at the back of the block, center of the exhaust manifoild, at least the way myu sick twisted memory works....

[JohnsonM50]

Tim, your right about the Dykehouse can, it does work like the folded systems found in a modern production motors midsection.

But if you think the Ign. was trick on this motor, the side carb setup was really cool. I wonder if anybody can figure it out.

We tried this motor on a borrowed hydro intended for a yamato 80 motor, what a ride, not even close to enough boat. There is an old picture around maybe I can find it, you will see what I mean.


The side carb on this is not new. [It is new for the 31.8], but the earlier late 50's early 60's 35/40's had an available kit to add 5hp that was a side carb. The 2 barrel here is probably from an OMC V4, 85hp or so. Anyhow, an awesome build, would like to know more.

[JohnsonM50]

The low center intake port is part of the mod I'm assuming? Was anything done on the exhaust side?