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Tomtall
11-01-2008, 08:47 PM
OK BRF members and visitors ----

I'm starting a new thread to wet the pallet of the exotic outboard motor gurus. I will be posting various motors that have been made over the years and it's your task is to try and let us know what the heck it was and is.

I will post the answers for each within a few days.

Good Luck! :D


Here is the first one --------

Master Oil Racing Team
11-01-2008, 09:58 PM
Wow...Tomtall....that is great. I have missed your other thread. Glad to see you back with another teaser.:cool:

Stuboat97
11-02-2008, 05:24 AM
Saw it in person yesterday in MI. Met the builder. Will let others comment a little first.

Allen J. Lang
11-02-2008, 05:54 AM
Hi Tom- As with Stu, I know the engine and the builder and will with hold my answer. Also know how well it ran. :D

Ye Olde Desert Geezer :cool:

proprider01us
11-02-2008, 04:13 PM
Personally saw it get pulled out of the trunk of Tim Kurz car. Tim does a great job of "thinking outside the box". Didn't take long to start getting it competetive in FEH that weekend. Very cool idea.:rolleyes:

Tomtall
11-02-2008, 04:17 PM
OK Joe -

We know Tim built it and it runs FEH according to your post, which is correct, but what is it and what was done to it ?????

J-Dub
11-02-2008, 04:42 PM
From over here on the Left Side of the Map, I looks like he took a 44 and put, I am guessing pyramid reeds, in front of each cylinder in order to eliminate 13 of the 17 left turns it takes to get fuel to the combustion chamber of the traditional Mercury reed cage. Now what happened to the original reed cages? Are they now additional main berings or are they "just along for the ride?"

J-Dub

Tomtall
11-02-2008, 04:53 PM
JW got it. Great Job! The following letter describes the history of this fire breathing Mod engine. :cool:

Allen J. Lang
11-02-2008, 07:45 PM
Thanks for the posting Tom. It's great to see the product of great minds of Tim, the late Bud Parker and the late Harry Brinkman. Bud and Harry knew their Mercs and so did Tim along with how to make an OMC really run. Even though I am an OMC fan, I got to give credit to the 3 gentlemen on their knowledge and workmanship.
Ye Olde Desert Geezer :cool:

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-02-2008, 09:42 PM
I don't have to use my imagination anymore after seeing what he was talking about some couple of years after talking to him. Bravo Tim! The engine is sure impressive. You got me moving on my project as a result.

Tim was such an inspiration I am in a mockup stage too doing a similar kind of engine with 4 carbs, Merc 44 block as the basis but the difference is that I am using Nydahl front case castings, Tillotson KC-6 carbs, P4D Merc magneto and Bayer stacks. This could become a meeting of engines not only on display but an "unlimited gassers class engine" for FE for these Merc 44s.

Way to go Tim!!!!! :)

Anymore thinking of doing this too now??

Tim Kurcz
11-03-2008, 05:15 AM
Many thanks for your kind words regarding my 444 project. It's truly an honor to be considered part of engine building history, and a surprise to see it appear so quickly on this site.

To answer the (original) reed cage question: The 444 uses bronze Merc cages as crank bearings only. The reed openings have been blocked off completely.

As indicated, casting kits are available, and I'll be happy to assist others with the build process. What you see is the serial #1 prototype. Serial #2 is in construction, and as a result of Mark Suters show, serial #3 castings will become an engine this winter also.

Here's to the "unlimited gas modified" concept! Good building to all.

Tim

J-Dub
11-03-2008, 08:50 AM
Cool engine!
The guy that owns the 6-Looper we are building has a Quincy crank case with the 3 traditional carb locations, plus six small openings off center to the starboard side for little chainsaw carbs and reeds. It appears to also be one hell of a lot of work.
I will admit. I don't have the guts to attempt that one. Ya can't just go scrounge up Quincy parts when you find out the hard way you jetting ain't right. I think I'll leave those parts at his house as a conversation piece.

J-Dub

Dan M
11-03-2008, 09:37 AM
J-Dub,
The "9 carb" case sounds like one that Joe Michelini ran back in the day on his Aermarine cabover. Last saw it a a race in Springfield Il in the early 70's.

Dan:D

J-Dub
11-03-2008, 10:15 AM
I believe that it is the same engine. In fact I believe Paul verified the # for Ken.

J-Dub

Tim Kurcz
11-03-2008, 10:29 AM
Thanks for the kudos J-Dub. The design choice I made was to eliminate the (restrictive) Mercury reed cage entirely. The challenge was to keep packaging tight to contain crankcase volume to Mercury factory levels.

You can build a pyramid reed six with my design. After all, it's just another pair of Merc cylinders. Fixed jetting is recommended as there is no inter-cylinder balance. In effect, you have six one-cylinder engines stacked together. Does this clear up the picture?

Tim

J-Dub
11-03-2008, 10:56 AM
Tim,
I get it. Its just I haven't had the time to do it, and my Dad has the mill which is about 45 minutes away.
In my brainstorm, and there have been a lot of storms in my stupid little brain, was to move the induction way over to the starboard side in line with the intake runners, similar to the Yamato 80. This way the windage in the crank case is working with you to improve the flow.
Whats your opinoin?

J-Dub

Tim Kurcz
11-03-2008, 02:23 PM
Hi again J-Dub,

Been there and done that: The offset carb location sounds good, and I tried it initially to save the mag mounting bracket. It requires a heavier, more complicated casting as split line fasteners need to be incorporated. Another downside is a huge increase in crankcase volume for front facing carbs.

The third approach I took bolts/bonds to the existing carb studs and requires no welding. There is no distortion of the crankcase, and best of all, practically no increase in crankcase volume as the reed cage is within 1/16" of the rod swing. The only thing you lose are the starter and ignition mounting features. A small sacrifice easily overcome with the excellent Roskowski ignition system.

Tim

Tomtall
11-04-2008, 07:22 PM
OK --------------- First thanks to Tim for his input on that awesome engine he fab'd up and built and having the chance to talk with him at the meet.



Onto the second "Name that outboard". Can you tell us what this second engine is and maybe the era it came from?

Good Luck! I'll post the answer and some history in a couple days. ;)

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-04-2008, 09:00 PM
Nice!! I think this thread is going to be highly educational! Way to go and thanks Tim, for getting it going with a bang! :)

RichardKCMo
11-04-2008, 11:18 PM
I don' know the answer to the 2nd , had the 1st one but some one beat me to it , i'm glad your back on track will read with int.
RichardKCMo.

Tomtall
11-06-2008, 05:36 PM
Well looks like no takers on this. It was one of the many engines owned and on dispaly at Mark Suters collection in Michigan.

David Weaver
11-06-2008, 06:58 PM
I had one of these, but with the original Konig crankcase. Used a battery and points for ignition. Ran water injection into the pipes to help pull bigger props and for acceleration out of the turns. I got this engine from Jane and Ralph Smith (P-102). I will try to find a photo of it when I return from the USTS meeting.

fbref5269
11-06-2008, 06:58 PM
hi all,

what kind of ignition was used on the m? i need the light blue coil for the 125 quincy z i'm restoring. the same thing was used on mine but have not been able to find one. anyone know where i can get one or what it came off of. i know it is made by presolite, but no one has ever seen one.

frank

Tomtall
11-08-2008, 05:50 PM
OK -------------- Here is engine #3 of "Name that outboard".

Can you tell us the manufacturer,class and year of this engine?

If not just guess.:D

Good Luck!

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-08-2008, 09:42 PM
Without seeing the other side of the block it sure does look like a Harrison class B Alky circa 1966-67 to me. :)

There seems to be some lower profile that would say the Harrison still has an Anzani gearcase under it.

In the background is a Stock Outboard racing British Anzani A or B Gasser with factory block wrap around ducted water level exhaust. The engine sports an original Amal Monobloc carb.

Beautiful engine!

Mark75H
11-09-2008, 09:32 AM
I think you are right, John. I'd guess the same thing.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-09-2008, 10:21 AM
Restoring some of them has its pluses. They are a wonderful American outboard racing machine.

Tomtall
11-09-2008, 11:00 AM
Well -------------- John you are correct. Except this engine is listed in the Mark Suter collection as being a "A" class Harrison outboard. The reason? It's actually a "B" class Harrison sleeved down to a "A" class displacement. (see following posts regarding this) I liked the progressive linkage set-up on this engine.
Cool engineering.

I also want to compliment you on spoting the engine behind it as a British Anzoni outboard. Both engines name cards are listed below.

Great Job! :)

hydrodriver
11-09-2008, 02:41 PM
This photo was taken at Kaukauna Kilo's in the mid 1970's. Maybe it will help in your reassembly of the beast.

Mark75H
11-09-2008, 03:16 PM
I'd like to see the insides before its put back together as well. Its hard to see the motor behind all those carbs

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-09-2008, 05:22 PM
Tom Tall:

Mark Suter has a description problem. He might have it described as a Class A Alky but the problem is that the block has the class B number of head bolts and bolt pattern (class A Harrisons used 6 bolt heads where class B Harrisons use 10 bolt heads). The Harrison B block I am restoring has the same number of bolt/stud holes at the head as his does, 10 bolts. In fact his ignition coil pack of 2 also sits on the same cast holder as the class B Harrison. Class A Harrisons as well as class A Anzanis used only a 6 head bolt/stud pattern and from the study I made are interchangeable.

It could be that Mark Suters's Harrison is a sleeved down bore to class A (15 cubic inch) class B Alky block. Only taking off the head and measuring the bore will verify the displacement. Harrison already knew from what they knew about class A and B Anzanis using a 6 head bolt / stud pattern that for class A the 6 bolt/stud pattern would do but as 6 bolts for class Bs the Anzanis heads leaked without special work needed be done to minimize leakage so on the Harrison class B engines they, Harrison added 2 more head bolt/studs per cylinder (10 in total) to surround each cylinder just like that of a Quincy Flathead 2 cylinder A or B to eliminate the head to block leakage possibilities from happening and that did the trick for the class B Harrisons quite well.

One other point is that I have had some information from others that Harrison class As didn't come with 3 carbs like Mark Suters, only 2 at most.

This why I believe Mark Suter's Harrison is not a class A but a class B Alky. It sure does not take anything from its collectors value as a class B as with a class B like that Harrison set some amazing competition records. Some one might have sold it to him as an A but sometimes when these engines come up for sale the seller might not know anything about them clearly as a result I think he got a more valuable collector engine as a result, maybe? :)

Tomtall
11-09-2008, 06:25 PM
John -

Thanks for your input. I know that many highlights came out of the 1000cc knoig post I did on that engine which in turn allowed Mark to restore it as close to original as possible. Possibly your input on the Hirrison will shed some new found light on it as well. If in deed the Harrison does prove to be a "B" class engine then I will make sure the post will be updated. Until then I have to except the fact that Mark knows what he has. I take your input seriously by the way as I know you know your stuff on these exotics as well. Thanks again.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-09-2008, 06:41 PM
Tomtall:

There is a Harrison section here on BRF with loads of pictures as well as pictures in the Anzani thread as well with interlocking comparrison pictures and write ups. They should help Mark Suter to positively identify if his beautifully restored engine is a Harrison A or B once he takes the head off to measure the bore.

No matter what Mark's engine is I am only at a starting point with the A and B Harrisons I am restoring as they are more Harrison / Anzani 1 and 2 carb hybrids as his more Harrison with 3 carbs as to a very lesser degree Anzani which on his seems only to be the Anzani gearcase on his. Put a Harrison gearcase on his and his becomes all Harrison and not at all any kind of a hybrid what so ever once that is done. It would then be a purely American racing engine.

Tomtall
11-09-2008, 07:11 PM
OK ----------- This ones a little different. Pro class engine. Can tell us the make and class.

Good Luck!

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-09-2008, 07:19 PM
I was looking at Mark Suter's collection on the Quincy website trying to figure out if Kawaski ever made a made of racing outboard racing engine, 250cc or what ever so that looks like it? It was built and run successfuly by Michael Schmidt in the mid 1990s?

Mark Suter
11-10-2008, 03:57 PM
John, you were quite observant to notice the block and head on my Harrison. The reason I labeled it as an "A" is because the block has "A"s stamped all over it. But you raise a good point that the block was originally a "B". You got me wondering so I popped the head off and measured one of the bores... it was 2.057" in diameter. So it definitely is a sleeved block with the "A" displacement. The motor came from the Porter auction and that's as much as I know about its history. Any chance you know any history on this one?

Tomtall
11-10-2008, 04:08 PM
John -


I was looking at Mark Suter's collection on the Quincy website trying to figure out if Kawaski ever made a made of racing outboard racing engine

Your on the right track but have the wrong manufacturer.;)

Allen J. Lang
11-10-2008, 04:20 PM
Tom- Is that a Yamato? I thought I had seen one for sale not to long ago that looked like this one.
Al :cool:

G-10 Brian
11-10-2008, 04:29 PM
John -



Your on the right track but have the wrong manufacturer.;)

Nicholson Yamaha 250cc, Yamaha TZ 250 road race cylinders Yamato crankshaft built by Bruce Nicholson. Bruce has built 125cc - 250cc - 350cc - 500cc and 700cc engines, most with Yamaha cylinders, a couple with Honda cylinders one with VRP cylinders and his last one was a 125cc Rossi with a balance shaft. I think about 15 engines total with more on the way!

Tomtall
11-10-2008, 05:10 PM
Bingo !!! -------------- Brian Matheson is absolutly correct. Great Job. :)

Tomtall
11-10-2008, 07:38 PM
OK -------------- Time for a change. Time for a vintage production race engine. The engine below is a Martin 200. Can you name the year the 200 was introduced to the public? What size Martin production race engine was made pror to it? and for a bonus what the name of the company that made these cool looking engines?

Good Luck! :)

Mark75H
11-10-2008, 07:45 PM
The pressure is really on now ;)

Roy Hodges
11-10-2008, 07:50 PM
was it the Presto company? I think, they only made it 2years,( the 200 Race motor ) maybe 1953&1954. Seems like all the Martin dealers in the S.F. Bay area switched to Mercury (Keikhaefer ) in 1955 ,after Martin went out of business. They said that the Martin was best fishin' motor made.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-10-2008, 08:25 PM
Mark Suter:

I wished I did know more of the history on these engines or yours but no, I don't know that much yet. Out of every dozen Anzanis in A or B Alkys running back in the 1960s running NOA every year in my home town there would be a couple of Harrisons too. They were in a "teething" stage that did not have the running consistency of its Anzani cousins. Until I got here on BRF I had no idea they were even related, never mind to some degree interchangeable other than by crescent stack system shape. I has been quite an eye opener for me! I wished Kay Harrison would do a lot more posting here because he could sure explain it all than just obvious speculation on my part from doing restorations.

Its definitely a class "A" Alky Harrison by the bore size alright. It must have quite the thick ferrous liner or when they cored the bore for a liner they just did so for a class A standard sized bore ferrous liner in what was evolving into a B block? To machine head CCs and shape from practice makes perfect was already there. I have it's big bore brother here with "B" stamped on it that looks indentical as yours from the outside and from wear characteristics it saw lots of racing time as a B Alky. It looks virtually the same other than bore size completely. My B Harrison block fits acturately on the A-B British Anzani crankcases. Whether my two blocks would fit Harrison crankcases interchangably with littlle machining I have no idea. From all this it seems that the Harrisons were quite evolutionary as time went on making them more and more Harrison and less and less Anzani. looks like we haven't seen all the variants yet?

No matter, your Harrison is one great looking collectors piece be it an A instead of a B. It very well be more rare as an A than as a B!

The class A Harrison block, six bolt head and peripherals I have here is interchangeable with an A class British Anzani Alky. When you look at the Harrison and Anzani threads I have here on BRF you can see why your engine left me scratching my head profoundly so. :)

mac19f
11-11-2008, 10:55 AM
The other Martin production race engine was the "Hi Speed 60". A 6 hp block with some special powerhead goodies and a special racing lower unit. These are far rarer than the Martin 200 engines. Engines were designed by George Martin and made by the National Pressure Cooker Company.

Roy Hodges
11-11-2008, 01:05 PM
The other Martin production race engine was the "Hi Speed 60". A 6 hp block with some special powerhead goodies and a special racing lower unit. These are far rarer than the Martin 200 engines. Engines were designed by George Martin and made by the National Pressure Cooker Company........................................... .....
.................................................. .................................................. ..................................
Same company . I just looked up the presto pressure cookers, this is a newer name for same company. I am guessing that the Martins were made by presto because of the ALUMINUM foundry owned by presto (National Pressure cooker company . ) I noticed the good looking gearcase on the Martin 200. Looks like Mercury copied the shape for the Speedmasters , because NONE of the Quickies looked like that . Lon Stevens told me 35 years ago ,that the quickie had the nose pointed up slightly , & he did NOT like that . I think that would be like trimming the motor "in" instead of out , or being perfectly perpendicular .

Tomtall
11-11-2008, 02:07 PM
Well --------------------- Very good you all are correct in one way or another. Great Job!

There was a fantastic display put on by Roger Dykhouse and his close friend (you will have to excuse me Rog I couldn't remember his name) showing the primary production race engines used from the late 1940's to the mid 1950's. This great looking Martin 200 was part of that display. Here is a little bio Roger made regarding that engine.

Tomtall
11-11-2008, 05:36 PM
OK ----------------------- Engine #6 is dated from the late 1950's. It came from the other side of the pond. Can you tell us what make and class the vintage race engine is?

Good Luck!

Mark75H
11-11-2008, 05:44 PM
Konig C (and that is the name of the image file, too :))

Mark Suter
11-11-2008, 05:55 PM
Before we get too far removed from the Martin motors, the guy that helped Rog Dykehouse put together the beautiful display of '40s and '50s Class "B" motors was Jack Gilbert. That display was absolutely stunning and was one of the biggest attractions at the meet.

Tomtall
11-11-2008, 06:01 PM
Thanks Mark. I agree those enines were all 10's.

Sam - Sorry I forgot to rename that file prior to posting like I did the others.
You are correct. It is a "C" class Konig. Great detective work.:rolleyes:

Mark75H
11-11-2008, 07:35 PM
A note to Mark ... according to all the literature I have the 1956 Konig C model name is "HRE"

Tom, I would have recognized that motor in the dark ... its one of my favorites.

Master Oil Racing Team
11-11-2008, 07:50 PM
So that was the 28th "C" motor made of that configuration. Does anybody know what HRE means?

Bill Van Steenwyk
11-11-2008, 09:34 PM
Wayne:

Means "Helluva Racing Engine". That was easy.

On a more serious note, I was present at the first race (supposedly, or at least that was what we understood) where Dieter Konig raced his engines here in the US, It took place at Little Rock Boat Club, in Scott, Arkansas, at an "old river" lake where the Arkansas River had once run, and then over time it changed it's course and left several "horseshoe" shaped lakes. Same type situation as Horseshoe Lake in Granite City, Il., from the Mississippi River, where you and your Dad raced several times. He ran A, B, and C Hydro with a single, twin, and three cylinder engines in those three classes. We were told he had never made a clock start before, and it looked that way as he would be on the backstretch when the rest crossed the starting line. Within 2 or 3 laps he had caught up and passed everybody and won all the races he entered that day. Next weekend was a race in Memphis, Tenn., where he basically did the same thing. I believe this was in 1955 but I could be mistaken about that. I don't know whether Scott Smith was with him or not. I always meant to ask Scott about that time and never did.

The one thing nobody was mistaken about, was they had seen something they would never forget, and it basically obsoleted all the SR's, KR's and PR's that he thrashed that day. Very shortly thereafter the Quincy's became very competitive also, so "alky" boat racing changed drastically and forever. For someone who has always been a boat racing enthusiast, I feel very fortunate to have been present at that race, at that time. We were also told that he built the engines as the classes were being run, by adding cylinders from a single cylinder A, to a 2 cylinder B, and then a 3 cylinder C. I was not in the area where he was pitted, so I have no personal knowledge about that, but it sounded plausable, and certainly made a good story.

Mark Suter
11-12-2008, 07:06 AM
Sam, the reason I put "HE" on the card under "Model No." is because that is what is stamped on the motor crankcase (i.e., serial no. "HE5628").

Mark75H
11-12-2008, 04:01 PM
Thanks, Mark.

Tomtall
11-12-2008, 08:23 PM
OK ----------------- First off thanks everyone for the history lessons. Some great stuff being posted here.

The next outboard is shown below. It's a mutt of sorts. But we're looking for the base powerplant manufacturer. Do you know what make this motor is?

Good luck!

J-Dub
11-12-2008, 08:40 PM
Yamato 250 with the 4 degree surfacing kilo unit. Did they call that one an "R-A"?

Tomtall
11-13-2008, 03:25 AM
Well -------------- JW you are absolutly correct. Great Job!
And what a wild looking gearfoot as well.

Tomtall
11-13-2008, 03:31 AM
OK ----------- Nothing real special and out of the ordinary but some BRF members may never have seen one. Can you name this more current PRO racing outboard? For a bounus can you tell us who raced it?

mac19f
11-13-2008, 06:27 AM
GRM also known as a Rossi. 350cc. I believe this is the first one run in this country by Rossi himself at Cypress Gardens.

Mark Suter
11-13-2008, 10:10 AM
This GRM motor was also raced by the Thirlby PRO racing team after purchasing it from Guiseppi Rossi.

Back to the prior Yamato motor for a second... this special kilo lower unit was the very one that Sean McKean set numerous world speed records with using a number of different displacement Yamato powerheads. It really has no link to this third-port 250 motor but I had to find a place to display this important piece of racing history.

J-Dub
11-13-2008, 11:29 AM
How long ago was Sean running that unit? It had to have been prior to '95.

J-Dub

Tomtall
11-13-2008, 02:22 PM
Well --------------- Greg McCreery is correct! It is a Rossi 350. Great Job.

Mark Suter
11-13-2008, 03:35 PM
How long ago was Sean running that unit? It had to have been prior to '95.

J-Dub

J-Dub, thanks for asking. I went back through my correspondence with Jim McKean looking for your answer and found my earlier statement to be quite erroneous. The only world kilo speed record set with this lower unit was when it was on a 250 Yamato motor in 1992. Sean McKean did set kilo records in 350, 500 and 700 hydro classes but they were NOT with this lower unit and they were in the 1995 to 1998 time frame. The kilo lower unit still has some historical significance, albeit less than what I had originally indicated. I apologize for the error.

David Weaver
11-13-2008, 04:08 PM
Well --------------- Greg McCreery is correct! It is a Rossi 350. Great Job.

In my opinion, when this engine showed-up at the 1998 O-350 World Championships at Cypress Garden, it represented a inflection point in the advancement of PRO racing in the US. With the exception of 2 competitive Yamato's, the GRM was the class of the field. Most US drivers were racing Konigs in 350 and scratching their heads afterwards. Never again, would a Konig seriously compete in 350 hydroplane except at an individual race or two. The 3-cylinder Rossi'd would dominate until the first 2-cylinder VRP's appeared.

Also, this race featured an APBA 125cc world championships. This was the first time that the Europeans had seen our single-cylinder class. Pete Hellsten had begun developing the Mac Minarelli engine. Eventually, the 125cc MAC would be produced by the factory. This event planted the seed for O-125 in Europe. We just saw how popular this class has become in Europe over the past 10 years.

We see few of these 3 cylinder GRM's at US races, but these engines remain very popular in Europe O-350 racing today.

DW

Tomtall
11-14-2008, 05:42 PM
OK ---------------- This next engine has shown up on BRF before but there is a great deal of history posted on it so I thought I would add it to this thread. Can you fill us in on some of the story about this home brew engine?

Good Luck!

Tomtall
11-15-2008, 07:05 PM
Well ----------- this engine was talked about in the 2007 AOMCI meet thread a year ago. Mark Sutter had the following to say about some replys about it.


Triple Carb 250 Opposed Twin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Suter
Eric, as far as I know, the 250 opposed is a Konig-built motor. Ed Thirlby told me it was raced by a guy named Harry Hardin out of Port Huron, MI. It has what appears to be a factory serial number on it (RA7080). The crankcase looks like it has been modified to mount 3 carbs in place of two but otherwise looks like it was designed and manufactured for the 250 application. Ed said it was not a very smooth running motor but it was very competitive. I bought it from a collector in Michigan who got it from Dale Robertson. Dale said it never was very competitive. With these two conflicting stories, I am not sure what the real story is on its performance. The pipes are fixed (not sliders).

I tracked down Harry Harden (who is from Linden, MI) and got the real story on this motor. Harry built it himself largely from available Konig parts in 1968 or 1969. Although he had ignition problems early on (hence the high speed miss that Ed Thirlby remembers), it was significantly faster than the Konig alternate firing twins at that time. Harry said he won a lot of races with that one-off motor... particularly after he changed coils and fixed the misfire issue. Apparently he got Deiter's attention because Deiter reportedly did follow up and build some opposed twin A motors. Although the serial number looks somewhat like a factory number and implies that it was a 1970 build, the number was "fabricated" by Harry only because NOA required that each motor be numbered.

RichardKCMo
11-15-2008, 11:55 PM
Tom, great thread, though , i won't know many answers , allways liked the alkies , as before the 50s there was nothing else, i meant to say before mr C say what? but at any rate will read with int. Nothing like the sound of an old oppossed cyl. american motor turning unheard of rpms probly 7k
RichardKCMo
btw that's 1 reason i identify with the sound of d mercks, when i go to a race when i stop at the local store , i listen for the sound as i get iced up for the day, and then i have a sense of direction.

Frank Volker
11-16-2008, 06:06 AM
I recall in one of the early races of the flathead engines, we went to a race in (I think) Constantine, MI. I believe this would have been about '64 or '65. We were especially interested in how the FA was going to compete, since most R&D began with this engine. I remember watching a guy testing this 2-cyl opposed A Konig. It "sounded" really slow, but during the A runabout competition, he had no problem accelerating away from everybody--including us. I believe he won every race he was in. We were stunned, to put it mildly. I don't think he ran hydro class, but I could be wrong. The name "Hardin" certainly rings a bell, but I'm certain it was before '68.

Frank

Mark Suter
11-16-2008, 06:59 AM
Frank, when I talked to Harry Harden last year, his memory seemed quite fuzzy on some of the "facts" about this motor. While he seemed to have a quick answer to when was it built ("either 1968 or 1969"... I just went with the earlier year), he could not remember what crankshaft he used. So I guess it is possible he could have been in error on the build date. The five head bolts indicate that the cylinders are from a Konig FA motor. When were the first FAs available in this country? The answer to that might help tie down when this "home-brew" was actually created.

David Weaver
11-16-2008, 08:23 AM
Frank, when I talked to Harry Harden last year, his memory seemed quite fuzzy on some of the "facts" about this motor. While he seemed to have a quick answer to when was it built ("either 1968 or 1969"... I just went with the earlier year), he could not remember what crankshaft he used. So I guess it is possible he could have been in error on the build date. The five head bolts indicate that the cylinders are from a Konig FA motor. When were the first FAs available in this country? The answer to that might help tie down when this "home-brew" was actually created.

My dad still has his 1969 FA Konig. This was a two cylinder with sliding tuned exhaust. The carbs are located opposite of one another. This is the engine that in John Shubert's image. The earlier versions of FA's used either a can or open exhuast (as did the FB's). The fly-wheel on the subject engine suggests to me that it is based on model predating the 1969 FA. The fly wheel on my dad's FA is similar to those used from the 1970's until the end of Konig.

Master Oil Racing Team
11-16-2008, 08:50 AM
I posted a pic our our 1966 FA on Paul Christner's Quincy site. It has the same style crank plate as in the 70's. Also, the pipes were fixed and didn't have a cylindrical center section. They were long tapered megaphones, then at the end there were shorter reverse cones, then the stingers. The FA's were opposed firing, but inline, and while most were aluminum blocks, there were some that were cast iron. We got a cast iron one around 1967 that I think came from Marc Johnson's Dad Randy. I don't know the year it was made though.

Frank Volker
11-16-2008, 11:01 AM
Wayne -I seem to recall that the pipes you describe are the ones that were on the opposed A that gave us the spanking in Michigan.

Frank

Mark Suter
11-16-2008, 11:04 AM
Dave, my take on the flywheel is that the use of an HRA version was was more related to what fit the crank that Harry Harden used as opposed to what the primary "donor" motor was. I went out and pulled one of the heads off to look closer at the porting and other block features. As noted before, the head bolt pattern was five bolts as in the FA (the HRA has six). The block mounting bolt pattern looks like FA and quite unlike HRA). The block height (from crankcase mounting surface to head mounting surface) is the same as FA and about 1/4-inch less than HRA. The HRA cylinder has a transfer passage that swoops outward in a generous arc which goes well outboard of the confines of the block on this motor. I looked at the porting in this motor and the number and basic locations of the ports are similar to what I have seen in the FA but there are some differences (not enough to make me believe the blocks are not made from FAs). The blocks are iron and have been extensively modified with such changes as elimination of the reeds in the block (probably because he chose to use reeds elsewhere... between the 3rd carb and the crankcase). The other notable unique feature of this motor is that the plugs are offset from the bore centerline. The motor is quite unique and certainly required a lot of development to get it running as well as it did.

Wayne, I have two FAs and they both have iron blocks and slider pipes. This opposed motor may have excelled early on in the life-cycle of the FA because the early motors had fixed pipes. The advent of the sliders may have been part of the reason why the success of this motor was relatively short-lived (to my knowledge, Harry never tried sliders).

Tomtall
11-16-2008, 03:32 PM
OK ------------- The #10 engine of this thread is different for sure. It was one of two built and competed with success for many years. The one pictured is of the Mark Suters collection and Mark has provided some interesting informaton regarding these engines from the past. But first we need to know what the heck it is. Can you also tell us what class it may have competed in as well?

Good Luck!

leehall91
11-16-2008, 03:40 PM
Well it is a john deere liquid fire snowmobile motor thats all i know :)

Glenn Coates
11-16-2008, 07:07 PM
Kawasaki I believe was the supplier to John Deere.

Ronny W.
11-17-2008, 05:13 PM
its 340 cc i would gess it would run 350H and its a john deer snowmobile motor.

Bill Van Steenwyk
11-17-2008, 05:35 PM
I seem to remember one of these in the early to mid 80's making an appearance in the upper midwest, maybe Constantine, that was used as an RB. This engine looks to be much more "finished" and cleaner than I remember the one I was thinking of though. Perhaps the same engine with some "TLC"??
Can't remember who had it, but the John Deere brand sticks in my mind. Like the other post, I think it was an snowmobile engine. Nice work on the adapting of the tower housing and lower unit. Very low mounting on the transom of any boat, and the carb on the opposite side for water protection in the corners. Almost looks like something Harry ZAK would do, or had some input into. Looks to be a Konig (Phelan) ignition, and a very nicely fabricated, sturdy pipe bracket for the two cylinder, alternate firing engine. With the inherent imbalance problems that design of engine had at a certain RPM, it would need to be heavy duty. Very Nicely Done. If the owner is around I would be very interested in how it ran, especially if it was an RB.

Jerry Peterson
11-17-2008, 08:16 PM
John Deere had the best cross country snowmobile racer avaliable in 76,77,&78.They used the 340 Kioritz engine.During that time period there was a very extensive cross country racing circuit and the premier race of the year was from St.Paul,Mn. to Winnipeg,Manitoba.A 500 miler.John Deere wanted to win that race and they had built the sled that could do it.Brian Nelson was riding for them and he had previously won the big one.The Kioritz engine was very fast but had a piston problem that they couldnt figure out.
The week before the race the Kioritz factory had a race engine flown to the Moline Ill. airport.Harry Zak solved the problem and fixed it.Brian Nelson won the race with that engine.Harry's name was never mentioned,as usual.

Bill Van Steenwyk
11-17-2008, 08:37 PM
Jerry:

I think you are exactly right. There was a young kid (at the time) who used to pit for Ray Hardy and John Winzler. I can't for the life of me remember his name now, but it will come back in the middle of the night sometime. Anyway, he was very close with Harry and Harry kind of took him under his wing when he (the young man) went to work for Kioritz in Chicago. He really did not know much about two strokes other that the general theory at the time he went to work there, but with Harry's help he quickly rose thru the ranks and I believe was promoted eventually to a very high position with Kioritz. Harry was VERY helpful to him and basically taught him everthing he knew about engines. In turn, the young man was very greatful to Harry and did many nice things for him in return, including providing him, at little or no cost, many Kioritz products such as lawn trimmers, chainsaws, etc., that were NOS that were going to be scrapped when the newer models came out. Harry sold these, made a little cash, and everybody was happy. I think the young man would gladly confirm that he owed his success with that company to Harry and what knowledge he imparted to him. As you said, something very few people ever knew about. I happened to see a program on the History Channel about two years ago about all kinds of lawn and garden power equipment. It was narrated and the equipment demonstrations were done by this young man, who at that time was still employed by Kioritz.
I tried to find him two years ago after seeing the program as Mike Krier and I wanted him to present the ZAK Award that year, but unfortunately he is not with Kioritz anymore and I was unable to locate him, either there or in Chicago. Kioriz products also go under the name of ECHO.

Just remembered his name (before the middle of the nite) ANDY KUZMAR

Tomtall
11-18-2008, 06:27 PM
Well ---------------- We had several good answers regarding this custom built Pro engine. It is one of my favorite engines on dispaly at Mark Suters just because of its uniqueness. One heck of a fabrication job. Here is what Mark has to say about the Deer.


It was created from a mid '70s John Deere 340 "Liqui-fire" snowmobile engine and used Konig electronic ignition, a single Carter N carb in lieu of the original dual 34mm Mikunis and Konig LU with 12:15 gears. It was tied together with a simple aluminum frame and Mercury clamp and swivel brackets. The engine was originally manufactured for John Deer by Kioritz in Canada. Two JD racers were created... the first by Millard Peck from Karlin, Michigan and the second by Keith Schictel of Kingsley, Michigan (my motor is the second one... Skip Paul in Indiana now owns the first one). The JDs competed in the PRO Restricted B class. When first made, they could only use one pipe but a later rule change allowed Keith to switch to the two pipes now seen on the motor. The late Tom Squicciarini bought this motor from Keith and continued to race it well into the late '80s. Tom told me that the two JDs handily beat the competition (largely early Konig Bs) for about 8 years until the class rules changed to enable the use of Konig VB motors. The VB was way too much motor for the JD to remain competitive.

Dan M
11-18-2008, 07:01 PM
Jerry/Bill,

I remeber Harry telling me what he found wrong with the early Kioritz motor. The motor was one of the first liquid cooled motors to be used for snowmobiles. If you look at the pictures of the RB outboard, you will see that the casting is very large. There were 4 "gussets" in the casting that basically held the bore in place. When they would start the motor, it would warm up evenly, and it would seem that there was nothing wrong. When the thermostat would open, the ice cold water would rush into the cylinders, and the gussets were so massive, they would shrink due to the temperature drop, and the motor would "cold stick". They would shrink so much that the cylinder would take on a square shape and lock the piston on the bore. Harry machined down the gussets, which helped, but the real fix was to put a small hole in the thermostat that would allow circulation of the antifreeze so the coolant would heat up evenly and the motor would never see the massive temperature drop.

To Jerry's point, this was another thing that Harry never was credited for. From what I remember, John Deere was ready to scrap the liquid cooled machines until Harrys fix allowed them to keep them on the market.

Dan

Bill Van Steenwyk
11-18-2008, 07:57 PM
In reading the short history by Tom Tall that he got from Mark Suter, I think there are either some misunderstandings or misconceptions involved in the story about the two engines (John Deere's) insofar as rules for the class at the time and also the dominant engines in the class at its peak.

First, the RB rules never specified that an engine, OF ANY MAKE, could only have one pipe. The rule was formulated from the get-go that it either had to be an expansion chamber exhaust or else exhaust below the cavitation plate as the standard Yamato 80 of the time did. The rule was formulated this way because of noise concerns coming into play at that time, and also because the stock model 80, which was the RB class baseline engine, had that type of exhaust system (under water below the cavitation plate) which also served as the cooling water intake for the engine. In the indicated time frame those engines (the John Deere's) were supposedly built, there were very few RB's with more than one pipe, but there was absolutely no rule against the number of pipes that could be used.

Secondly, the most widely used engines in the class from its inception were the Yamato 80's, which as mentioned earlier was the baseline engine. The rules were written by a committee appointed by the PRO Racing Commission to answer a need that arose when the large number of drivers that had come into PRO with the Formula 350 class using the Model 80, were in the last year or so of their five year eligibility to run the class, and were in danger of being lost to the PRO Category if something were not done to give them a class to go on to by modifing the engine they had been running for the previous five years. That was the genesis of the RB class. Other motors in the same size CC category were also legalized, such as the Quincy Looper B, the Quincy Z 350CC motor, several stock category engines, and even some of the older Antique class motors. The class was also open to any other engines that met the CC displacement versus carb venturi dimension that was put in place to try to achieve parity among all the different engines that came out of the woodwork and peoples basements to participate in the class. I saw other engines used that were from 4-wheelers, bikes, and a variety of uses.

The class rules were very basic and simple, CC's versus a committee mandated carb size, no open exhaust, and for the first 10 years or so, limited to two cylinder, alternate firing engines. The VB Konig mentioned was legalized for use in the class, but never became a force, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, because it was restricted to one 25MM carb. I understand there were a few tried in that configuration, but supposedly could not get enough fuel thru that size venturi, and had either sticking/burning problems because of a too lean condition, or were just not competitive with that size carb. I certainly don't intend to cast doubt on what Tom did or did not say, especially now that he is no longer here to have his say, but I was closely involved with the class, both on the committee that set the rules, and as a competitor in the class and held most of the records both competition and straigtaway, which never was broken.

I never remember the John Deere's as being any type threat to the other engines that were the predominant ones that participated in the class. That does not mean they did not win some local races, but at the USTS and National Championships during the time the class was popular over a period of 15 years or so, I never saw one that was competitive against the others of the day.

Again the narrative above is not meant to cast aspersions on anyones stories, but to try to clear up some seemingly misconceptions about the RB class.

Bill Van Steenwyk
11-18-2008, 09:11 PM
Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of this engine, and have no idea where it might be now. It might possibly have gone with a large amount of engines, parts, etc., sold to R.C. Hawie by Butch Leavendusky after the death of his father, Stan Leavendusky Sr. a few years back.

It was made from a "D" Konig that had spit a rod thru the side of the crankcase and ruined it for anything else. Stanley Sr., sawed the motor in half lengthwise and made a 349CC engine from the two top cylinders of the orginal engine. It was first constructed with the rotary valve in place, but we found (Butch and I tried it both on my Hydro and his Runabout) that after starting it with the prop out of the water, as soon as the motor was dropped in the water and a load put on it, it would throw the rotary valve belt. Not break it, but merely throw it off. We surmised this was because of the "big hit" every revolution from two cylinders firing together intead of two firing impulses every revolution when it was a four cylinder motor. Stan Sr. had given the intake some thought, and due to his thinking this might possibly happen, we had a reed valve setup that we were able to try at the same time. It started very well and jumped right on plane, had lots of power, but rapidly ran out of RPM and was not as fast as the competitive two cylinder alternate firing engines legal at that time. This was possibly due to the carb being used was a 25MM which was the largest carb legal in RB at the time, and the standard Konig carb was 40MM at that time. Add to that the fact that because the class rules at the time mandated an alternate firing engine, we just never fooled with it again. Basically what we had was a Konig two cylinder opposed firing "B" with a restricted carb. Just like the later Yamato 2 cyl "B's" and other opposed motors of that configuration and ignition advance of the day, it was a bear to start and would pull the starting rope thru your fingers in a moment, causing you to say "darn it" or something similiar. I don't know whether RC ended up with the engine or not. The last time I saw it was in Butch's shop with the reed valve on it. If RC does have it perhaps he could post a picture, as it certainly meets the criterea here of unusual engines.

Mark Suter
11-19-2008, 07:27 AM
Bill, I certainly appreciate your comments on my write-up... especially because you were so heavily involved in the RB class. I try to document as much history as I can get on every motor I get for my collection. All too often there is little or no information and sometimes, as in this case, the information I do get is erroneous for any number of possible reasons. The BRF forums have been very helpful in critiquing information that has been posted on my motors and I use that input to correct any errors that are pointed out. So please accept my thanks for your input... the documentation on the John Deere motor will be updated accordingly.

As you surmised, the drivers of the John Deere motors were pretty much just "local" racers, but they did do pretty well at that level. Undoubtedly, the stiffer competition at Regional or higher levels must have left them "back in the pack".

Jeff Lytle
11-19-2008, 08:14 AM
I have a pic of the John Deere taken at a race in Michigan somewhere........I'll have to look it up.

John Schubert T*A*R*T
11-19-2008, 08:21 AM
Jerry:

I think you are exactly right. There was a young kid (at the time) who used to pit for Ray Hardy and John Winzler. I can't for the life of me remember his name now, but it will come back in the middle of the night sometime. Anyway, he was very close with Harry and Harry kind of took him under his wing when he (the young man) went to work for Kioritz in Chicago. He really did not know much about two strokes other that the general theory at the time he went to work there, but with Harry's help he quickly rose thru the ranks and I believe was promoted eventually to a very high position with Kioritz. Harry was VERY helpful to him and basically taught him everthing he knew about engines. In turn, the young man was very greatful to Harry and did many nice things for him in return, including providing him, at little or no cost, many Kioritz products such as lawn trimmers, chainsaws, etc., that were NOS that were going to be scrapped when the newer models came out. Harry sold these, made a little cash, and everybody was happy. I think the young man would gladly confirm that he owed his success with that company to Harry and what knowledge he imparted to him. As you said, something very few people ever knew about. I happened to see a program on the History Channel about two years ago about all kinds of lawn and garden power equipment. It was narrated and the equipment demonstrations were done by this young man, who at that time was still employed by Kioritz.
I tried to find him two years ago after seeing the program as Mike Krier and I wanted him to present the ZAK Award that year, but unfortunately he is not with Kioritz anymore and I was unable to locate him, either there or in Chicago. Kioriz products also go under the name of ECHO.

Just remembered his name (before the middle of the nite) ANDY KUZMAR

While I was National SErvice Mgr. with Lawn-Boy, Andy was the same with Echo. Since I retired, not sure about Andy, but believe that he is still with Echo who are located in Lake Zurich, IL.

Bill Van Steenwyk
11-19-2008, 08:35 AM
Hi John:

Thanks for chiming in about Andy. I knew that Kioritz and Echo were "parent and child" or some such thing, but I don't remember now when I tried to find Andy whether I ended up with the operator at Kioritz or Echo if they are seperate offices in the Chicago area. I looked them up on the internet as I am sure Kioritz, and the person who answered the phone did recognize the name, but said he was no longer employed there. They either could not or would not give me any other details, which is sometimes company policy about past employees. I also had no luck with information on a personal number for him in the Chicago area.

Do you remember whether they are located at different locations, or were both at the same place? I would really like to find Andy if possible, as I am sure he would like to know about the ZAK Award and possibly make some contribution to it. As mentioned we wanted him to be the presenter two years ago when I was trying to locate him. Thanks again for letting me know your information.

John Schubert T*A*R*T
11-19-2008, 08:41 AM
Hi John:

Thanks for chiming in about Andy. I knew that Kioritz and Echo were "parent and child" or some such thing, but I don't remember now when I tried to find Andy whether I ended up with the operator at Kioritz or Echo if they are seperate offices in the Chicago area. I looked them up on the internet as I am sure Kioritz, and the person who answered the phone did recognize the name, but said he was no longer employed there. They either could not or would not give me any other details, which is sometimes company policy about past employees. I also had no luck with information on a personal number for him in the Chicago area.

Do you remember whether they are located at different locations, or were both at the same place? I would really like to find Andy if possible, as I am sure he would like to know about the ZAK Award and possibly make some contribution to it. As mentioned we wanted him to be the presenter two years ago when I was trying to locate him. Thanks again for letting me know your information.


Echo was & probably still is in Lake Zurich. He did report to another person, also a friend at the time, Ken Anderson, VP. Ken maybe retired by now.
You might try their HR department quoting the reason why, etc., sometimes they show compassion & give out the information.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-27-2008, 02:42 PM
The following pictures are of a Ray Nydahl based front cased Merc 44 FE Modified in the mockup stage before most of the fitting even began once Tim Kurcz got me going a couple years ago telling me about what he was doing.

The crankcase was designed to fit OMC - 3 Holer modified 6 petal pyramidal reed blocks fitted to the major front cover section (not shown) that originally by design had two Tillotson self pumping snowmobile carbs converted to methanol fuels mounted in line.

The new prototype reed block and carb manifold mount top cover not shown and still in machining stages of simple layout is somewhat pyramidal itself with each carb 45 degrees opposite to the next carb underneath it making a split V formation.

Another very simple flat plate front case cover for the Nydahl front case featuring 45 degree molded rubber carb connection manifolds and on the other side the pyramidal reeds systems is also in the works in an effort to only have to replicate the one major casting going to aftermarket for 4 molded rubber 45 degree carb mounting manifolds involved. Such rubber mounts lend themselves to using carb adapters on top to try a variety of carbs that may be suited to this application.

The Merc based ignition system will be belt driven and will be simply offset by design where the fuel pumps on a conventional Merc would normally sit. By nature the fuel pumps will not be mounted on the engine in a conventional way being mounted on rubber grommets and remote with a short crankcase pulse lines to actuate the 2 of them.

The theme is still to keep this engine as Mercury as possible, light and compact with all support peripherals close together.

Bayer aluminum exhausts are the preferred system to keep exhausts light weight.

To make the engine as total Mercury as possible and have no OMC parts (the reed blocks) I managed to get Mercury Snow Twister engine 8 port, 8 petal reed blocks for custom fitting. Other more up to date modern racing reed systems are also being looked at to keep parts more on the current side with current availability.

The question remains what reed blocks system will work best? The original Mercury reed blocks (brass ones are being used) are still there but blocked off completely.

Once all the prototyping is finished the prototype front case part (hopefully only the one casting part system) will be setup to make mold(s) for lost foam casting processes for making more aluminum copies in the future. The idea is to make the casting to fit any year or version of Mecury 44 cubic inch production engine block except the 44X type newest blocks.

Next summer the fully built prototype block completed will be featured in this section of BRF. The engine block side is all ready assembled using a center of cylinder sparkplug configuration block common to the early Mark 58s, Merc 400s and 500s and has the Bayer exhaust system in place and uses a revised though stock based in situ cast in liners with 4 intake and 4 exhaust wide port configuration to increase breathing and flow capabilities.

Enjoy the basic mockup pictures for now.

Tomtall
11-27-2008, 06:02 PM
Very cool piece. Thanks for sharing

I was wondering if the side holes were for fuel pump mounting? You stated the original design had fuel pump Tillisons carbs.. Were these side holes added on this unit due to the mock up with Merc. carbs?

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-27-2008, 06:42 PM
Tomtall: Aparently the holes you are pointing out were just some kind of pulse line hole for a line to the inlet nipples to the fuel pumps built on the carbs. There is a kind of bolted up on each side flange there with a hose nipple. I still have one of those somewhere but never had the two. That was done because the casting is not that thick there so holding a flange with an onboard nipple with a gasket between the casting and the flange was employed with two hold down bolts was for security. From looking around though any manner of pulse outlet or fuel pump type like a Mikuni pump could have still been located without much trouble in several alternate locations on either side of that crankcase. That is today's hindsight, always good but not always looked at back then with what was then avialable and thought to be standard or practical.

As I understand there was a velocity problem that very well could be intake overkill with a total 4 to 6 entry points to reedblocks in one engine feeding 4 crankcase sections / cylinders with two oversized carbs with Tillotson HD size barrels. This crankcase front was designed for use on Quincy Flatheads with the bolt pattern that used Mercury 4 cylinder front crankcase covers as earlier Quincy Flatheads did until they made their own all Quincy units later.

From its condition it did not look like it got much use on a Quincy Flathead engine. It could be an experiment that did not work up to expectation and was abandoned. Here it is again being given a different turn at use all over again.

Tim Kurcz
11-27-2008, 07:06 PM
Hi John. Looks like a pretty nice casting, most likely built for alky as you stated. Mod has a rule that says no "made for racing" parts, and that a "recognizable service block and crankcase" must be presented for inspection. Had these rules not been in place, a one piece casting would have been built for the 444 similar to the Nydahl piece.

The alternating up/down inlet bevels show it was built for the uncut OMC six-port reed cage shown. Don't dismiss them too quickly. They are quite compact for the tip length and area. This allows good flow while containing crankcase volume. If you go with the rubber adapters, my suggestion is you use the narrowest spread possible, or use straight in self-pumper snowmobile carbs as designed to keep mixture flow straight as possible.

Also, it looks to me as if the three-hole patterns on the side are for an early OMC (single chamber pulse) fuel pump. I'm guessing these were added after the fact to support float-style Merc KA or KC carbs. Possible reason: I tested self pumpers on an OMC 25SS mod in 1975 with no success. My guess at the time was the split pulse reduced performance.

Be sure to keep us informed with your build. It looks like fun! Meanwhile, I'll post some internal 444 shots to help your development. Good luck!

Tim

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-27-2008, 07:45 PM
Tim: I realized when I saw your version that you had the block and crankcase for the motors represented to the public as per the rules and then you made a stacker casting to add the carbs and reeds systems in a similar way in effect adding material to the exterior of an existing crankcase and getting what you wanted within the rules, resulting in a real good engine doing so. Here I am in fact taking away metal??? A whole crankcase front to avoid re-inventing the wheel knowing that the Alky effort back then around 1970 using that crankcase by Ray Nydahl that did not work in the way he intended it. LOL!

Looking at your casting this crankcase could be re-prototyped to be re-developed the way you did yours but then it would be easier to buy your castings and do it your way with some personal touches your probably well on your way to evolving. Any way you look at it you started something here with multi-carb (4 carb) unlimited Merc 44 cubic inch engines and you are to be commended for doing so as it stimilates interest.

I had a feeling you were going to read the riot act (the rules book) to me at some point so soon enough your going to see another version where the Merc 44 engine has the two front carbs as you would find normally but also has 2 more slightly smaller carbs, AJ Tillotsons mounted opposite the fuel pumps on reed boxes 90 degrees over from the front carbs feeding a Quincy pioneered 3 rd port variant system between the cylinders except the 3rd port is not feeding through the center of the crankshaft surrounding reed blocks up their middles. I heard that this is not re-inventing the wheel either and have heard that Quincy 3rd ports did not work either, which I don't buy but here on gasoline and with some different approaches, who knows? The viability just might be there as well? It sure is a lot of fun trying though isn't it!!!! :)

Tim Kurcz
11-28-2008, 04:10 AM
Any additional breathing around the crank mounted reed cages will greatly help the Merc. As you pointed out, that fact was determined back in the 60's & 70's. Guys like Nydahl, Christner, Parker, Fuschlin, Hubbel, O'Brien, Brinkman, O'Dea and who knows how many others took advantage for alky until the RV Koenig rendered their work non-competitive.

Shockingly, the dyno proven Quincy looper developed up to 6hp per cubic inch on alky breathing through the restrictive reed cages back then! Koenig simply did their homework and eliminated the restrictive reed valve.

Rules aside, you will find architecture issues which limit creativity. That said, you're very right, it is great fun to squeeze more out of these engines. In fact, I've been thinking of convering a MK78 to six carbs like the 444. I'd convert a MK75, but as pistons are unavailable, and it's illegal for FE anyway, it might as well build the 66! You just can't beat that sound!

When it comes to building your 444, forget about the rules and build it for you. I look forward to seeing images as you go!

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-28-2008, 10:58 AM
Tim:

I am a believer that deflector development was dropped way too soon when everyone abruptly switched from deflector or loop charged. Your 444 project shows something about what could have been back then but that didn't happen. In going through all kind of wrecked deflector Alky engines there was very little innovation going on to getting a faster colder air/fuel transfer through multi-carb pyramidal reed systems back then though the parts and principles were not unknown. The same thing in terms of shedding heat faster from a 30% bigger crown that deflectors had more than loop engines. The exhaust and intake ports could have been widened for fuel cooling and faster heat release but everyone stuck with 3 holes on each side of the cylinders. There was also serious innovation in the UK when it came to crossflow piston crown and combustion chamber design that equalled in terms of power and performance what loop engines could do without the heat soak in a deflector crown with some real differences. In the onrush to switch even that technology was patented but got lost in the onrush to loop engines.

I think that engines like your 444 effort, my effort and other efforts out there are restarting the further development of Deflector engines from the standpoint of their design where greatest power is developed at lower rpms. At the point they were dumped for loop engines they were trying to develop Deflector engines as high rpm output engines which is a place we have come to know they just cannot go. With that in mind and innovation we are going to see more engines like yours, the unlimited 44 cubic inch gasser FE types. Does SE class have any future worries from 444 type engines? Yes, from anyone wanting to get away from severe vibations that threaten to knock your false teeth out of your mouth landing them on the raceboats floorboards for later retreval and reinstallation! 444s do not suffer from those kinds of vibrations unless you blow an ear off a prop while underway. :)

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-28-2008, 02:29 PM
Tim:

The horsepower dyno figures with the advent of loop engines coming on stream in the 1960s sure must have seemed extreme in comparison to the deflectors of the day whose power curves steeply curved off while the loop engines power curves just kept going up.

This wholesale change from deflector to loop as my racing neighbour put it, put out horsepower to such a new extreme that props and raceboats are going to have to spend some time to just catch up. It was just after that time 1967 where we had Hubbel reed valves installed on my first KG-9 with Ted saying, trust them, they will make your engine faster. He was right. Local rules allowed that modification to KG9s, 40Hs and Mk50s to get them just a little more competitive with Merc 55Hs which even then were long gone allowing them to play by themselves in their front running pack while us poor followers hoped they forgot all about us growling in the rear hoping all their playing would blind them to us being sneaky to pull in amongst them with the hope of not being noticed to place higher.

Seems with the your 444 concept we can start doing some of that stuff to find some combinations that work all over again. One of my locals suggested getting 4 small self pumping chainsaw carbs and mounting them on a Hubbel reed valve concept blocks somewhere on the transfer tunnel on a Merc 44. Tim, with (in addition to the standard front mounted carbs) your concept engine built is breeding all kinds of ideas with characters since the engine was posted here on BRF. Hopefully all those ideas become some more engines. :)

Tomtall
11-29-2008, 08:28 PM
OK ------------- This next engine was a more complex home built exotic. It was only viewed in a public a few times. When it was, it caused quit a stir amoung the Mod racers. It took several years to develop and build. It did run but was short lived due to cooling issues. The exhaust stakes are absent in these pictures.

Can anyone give a description of what the base powerplant was and what was done to alter it to it current state?

Good Luck! :)

Mark75H
11-29-2008, 08:44 PM
Its the Frankenstein of Formula E ... the Kurcz 45 OMC twin Cosworth overhead exhaust valved 2 stroke. Its other unique feature was fixed motor with rudder steering as used on inboards.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-30-2008, 07:08 PM
The following pictures are that of the most powerful outboard, and an early loop charged engine along with that in a class of engine in its time, circa early 1960s.

It could have been the most powerful outboard engine ever built in its time period bar none racing or otherwise pushing any family pleasure boat. Its horsepower was in the area of 120+ at 9,000+ RPM with just 30 cubic inches (500 CCs) total engine displacement. It was fueled with a methanol base with nitromethane percentage added and engine lubrication done with racing caster in the basic mix. There could have been other mixing agents in the fuel as well combined with the other three.

Bill Tenney built it. Floyd Harris Jr. campaigned it in C - Alky Runabout in the early 1960s in the N.O.A. and only one man was strong enough to start it with a starting rope, on that rope all by himself. It was one of a kind though there were rumors of others back then and just recently in a land far far away of another. This one had the fame from being campaigned very successfully in the USA until the middle 1960s when it disappeared never to be seen again until the winter of 2006 where it came to be posted on select outboard websites. There were rumors of a 10 cubic inch bigger class D version in the works involving Ron Anderson and Jim Hallum in the north west USA in the middle 1960s as well. These rumours have since been borne out as true and one is in the future recreation works as well. One thing that was true to any of them was just how heavy they were causing many groans and few wanting to handle them while just looking at them was just fine for most!

Name the engine? You can tell the story you might know about it because to me as a young teenager starting out in stock outboard racing during the 1960s that it was a mythical Alky engine that only came real and true when it was reassembled here during the winter in my recroom in 2006! :)

Mark75H
11-30-2008, 07:35 PM
Anyone have a picture of one of those on a boat?

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-30-2008, 07:58 PM
Sam: Here is to me joining you and everyone else hoping that happens. Can I say that we can volunteer our help to those that have them but have a hard time contributing them for what ever the reason? I am ready to volunteer to make it happen. Black and white pictures are just fine too even if them came out of a Kodak Brownie. :)

Tim Kurcz
12-01-2008, 03:43 AM
It's wonderful to see the creative efforts of early builders preserved so well. Where did you find this beauty? Are the cranks geared together underneath?

You'd like to believe there are hundreds more out there in barns, basements, and garages just waiting to be found and restored, or at least photographed and shown.

Good luck with your photo hunt. In the early 1970's when I started in stock, all spare money went to the rig. Sadly as a result, there were very few photos, let alone high quality detail shots!

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-01-2008, 10:19 AM
Tim:

The engine is not a paired Harrison but definitely a paired Harrison cousin on a common engine coupling transmission. Give the engine make another guess? :)

When Bill Tenney passed away I acquired the remainder of the parts stocks from his family as it was felt more engines being restored would result in the hands of some one who was still into maintaining and using his own of which I already had two. That is happening albiet slowly as all the parts required to do a complete engine take time to find, assemble and even custom make to be able complete just one more.

There is no indication of who the builders of the common engine coupler were from from the outside but one is being dissassembled completely to restore it that they were from the UK seems pretty probable. They are built so exacting just a thumb and finger twisting on one of its shafts spins everything with a freedom of movement you would not think would exist there with such a large geared case. Its lubrication is a large internal pool of hypoid oil I am sure made the movement easier as opposed to some kind of greaseoil.

I can not say the engine is absolutely the way it was exactly when Floyd Harris Jr. was campaigning it because of the garage fire at Bill Tenney's destroyed some engines and components but not others. I used both used and NOS parts to reconstruct it. It was reconstructed with the help and thanks to BRF's member Tim Chance who more than likely maybe chased it around with his Alky powered DeSilva at some events?? :) Tim sure remembered who started and remembered those that were in pairs trying to start it when the main man starter was not there to do so.

When it comes to pictures racers themselves are probably their own worse because their on site and on the spot involvement themselves and then helping their compatriots with their rigs between heats saw little picture taking time. Their families and friends did though and here is to hoping that some that were there taking sme pictures turn up some time for post here. If people could realize they are helping to write and picture a history here maybe more could come of it.

One interesting point is that when this 4 cylinder Alky ran it did not loose a race according to all accounts. There is no information that it was ever run on a hydro, so that may be a first when it gets parked and run on Wayne Walgraves former National Championship winning 13.5 foot class F Alky Chaparral wedge hydro I have sitting here restored. It might be the only hydro around that would not sink stern first when the engine gets parked on it and set in the water. The coupled twin is just that heavy outweighing a Mark75H by some approximation of between 16 to 20 pounds.

Like some of the engines restored here, it along with others are destined for permanent display for posterity in our local marine museum in Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada, a place with a great race course that saw many, many NOA, and other association governed Alky, Modified and Stock outboard races. Its doing my little part for history that needs preservation and display for all of us. Engines like these and the variety raceboats that ran all these different engines define our collective and remarkable history as a motorsport.

Gene East
12-01-2008, 08:35 PM
Anzani 30 cubic inches.

And only 1 man could start it?

Baloney!!!

I can think of several who could no doubt do it.

One was a team mate of mine, Mark Hummesheim.

Another was a team mate of Mark's!

I'm 67 years old, and far past my prime, but I'll bet you a steak dinner, if that thing WILL crank up and run I can do it today!!!

By the way, Baldy was no slouch with a crank rope in his hands!

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-01-2008, 10:10 PM
Gene:

You have the engine name and marque right, it is a British Anzani twin block C Alky. :)

For me and no doubt others the engine was something totally mythical. What would I have known otherwise unless some one supplied the stories! I only ever saw single block Anzanis run ever and they were nothing like what is in these pictures! LOL! Tim Chance and then Paul Christner gave me most of what I know about it other than Floyd Harris posting in about this C Alky version, its the one he campaigned. These are the stories I was told and what ever they posted here or from hearing from them is all I know and now your saying something more. Do you have any pictures, please?????? Same thing when it came to the west coast effort as Jim Hallum and Smitty the Welder recalled what was going on over there to produce a class D Alky version.

I am sure you and there were others too that had the braun and the techique to start it but Tim Chance and Paul Christner put out the Paul Bunyan like stories of the racing effort of one man who excelled at doing what it took two others with two starting ropes to do.......most of the time for Floyd Harris. What am I to think after seeing an 8 cylinder Konig Alky, a GM Corvair outboard powered drag hydro posted here etc. that needed electric start???? Those earlier times were mythical with the giants of the sport doing things people today in most cases can't even squeeze between their ears in concept never mind even actually doing it! :)

Gene, you must have seen it run, there must be some stories you can post here knowing your a partisan Quincy man and lean that way.

Gene East
12-02-2008, 05:19 AM
I saw the motor once at Louisiana, MO in 1958. This was before I worked for Quincy Welding.

As I recall a Quincy 30-H won and a PR was second. The Anzani didn't play a significant role although it did stir some interest.

I was more impressed with meeting Clem Landis for the first time that day!!

For those of you who never knew Clem, you missed a TRUE LEGEND!!
But that's another story!

BTW John, I don't want to diminish your enthusiasm for this project.
In all fairness, I didn't see this motor run well because I was serving in the US Navy from 1959 t0 1962 when it was having most of it's success.

You do have something of great historic value there. Your willingness to share your collection is admirable.

Keep the snow up there if you can!

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-03-2008, 06:49 PM
Gene: Thanks for your winter wishes! LOL! We really and I truly mean really we do not get much snow up here in this end of the Red River Valley (the Red River in Texas only approaches a ditch by our standards)! All around us and south of us in particular in the USA houses get lost in snow drifts we just do not get here. Our average snowfall based on 10 years cycles is only between 14 and 16 inches which equates to 3 inches of rain. That is pretty arid. What gets us in trouble with flooding is from the melt in the Dakotas and Minnesota and their snowfall has already hit 36 inches to our 3 inches. If you want someone to teach snow fort and igloo building you have to find them south and east of us! LOL! :)

When it comes to engine and boat displays they are a history we should not keep to our selves. Their chances of getting lost by being kept to our own private collections increase the chances of being lost moreso as opposed to being let out for permanent public display. Their display will help fundraise for future marine museum development here and elsewhere way after we are all gone. That is the only hope.

Tomtall
12-05-2008, 07:47 PM
Well -------------- Sam was absolutly correct in saying
Its the Frankenstein of Formula E ... the Kurcz 45 OMC twin Cosworth overhead exhaust valved 2 stroke. Its other unique feature was fixed motor with rudder steering as used on inboards and sorry for the delay in responding Sam with the answer. Tim Kurcz built this wild 45 OMC mod with the addition of a Cosworth duel overhead cam cylinder head cut in half. It was fabed up over several years in Bud Parkers shop when Tim took the project on. Tim said the compression of this high breed two stroke was a whopping 235 PSI.:eek: It requird timming the cams and the roll over point perfectly and putting 24 volts to the starter to get it to pop off. You had one shot to get it to take. Tim said he had problems with the cylinder head getting steam pockets traped (due to poor casting design) causing hot spots that would cause the Alum. combustion chamber to sag causing poor valve seal and lose of compression. The exhaust was dumped out all four valves per cylinder (once, two intake/two exhaust) and the block was re-sleeved to use intake and exhaust ports as intake ports only. Twin two barrel carbs. feed the juice. To see this engine up close is to realize the hundreds of hours required to make it work. The engine was to be raced at Dayton Ohio record runs but after much discussion about it amoung the tech. commitee it was not allowed to run due to the boat sporting a remote rudder. Tim said this approach of engine design is similar to todays two stroke diesel engines. It just happens to run on gasoline. This and several other one off mod engines of Tims will be on display at The 2009 AOMCI fall meet at Mark Suters.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-05-2008, 09:03 PM
TomTall:

With wicked compression like that what kind of fuel mix was relied upon?

With a valve train like that was some kind of oiling system used to lubricate valves etc?

Tim Kurcz
12-06-2008, 05:39 AM
Well John, I completed a very complete explanation of the development program, but lost it to cyberspace! For now, the fuel used was 115 Avgas with 16:1 Johnson GT (at the time). If you look at the port side image, you'll see two fuel pumps. One suppies gas/oil mix to the carbs, the other circulates Mobil 1 5W synthetic oil to the valve train.

For Sam, I'll be posting images in the tank and lake testing soon as I dig them out and scan them.

As Tom pointed out, you'll see this engine at Mark Suters next fall. Perhaps I'll even dry fire it a few times! -Tim

Mark Suter
12-06-2008, 06:59 AM
For anyone interested in seeing Tim's motor, my 2009 Antique Outboard Motor Club swap meet is scheduled for October 24th and will be located in Byron, Michigan (between Lansing and Detroit).

Master Oil Racing Team
12-06-2008, 08:30 AM
It's sure to be an excellent meet Mark. I know you guys will take pics to post.

Tim...I know exactly what happened to you and it happened to me many times before I figured it out. When you go into a lengthy explanation of things,sometimes you get logged out. Most of the time, you can save what you wrote. Instead of logging back in at the box in the northeast quadrant, go down to the middle of the page where there is a larger and wider box that says you are not logged in. Go ahead and log back in there and punch the button. Most of the time it will post your reply. Sometimes it seems like it didn't, but after you push it again it will say that it is a duplicate post that you just submitted. Within less than thirty seconds your post will appear and you will breathe a sigh of relief. I know what it feels like to put everything into a post only to lose it. You never go back and rewrite it like you did the first time. I hope this helps and maybe you will get the urge later to give the long version another try.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-06-2008, 10:34 AM
Tim:

Installing and using a lower pressure pulse fuel pump to put light oil into the valve train was a novel idea. Was the oil lost or recirculated back to a tank like a little dry sump system? Looking at the octane and compression the ignition timing must have been kept conservative anyway? When it came to pipes I take it having valves dispensed with anything longer than the short zoomies it had? Must have still crackled like some small psuedo Indy car engine! :)

Master Oil Racing Team
12-06-2008, 10:51 AM
OOPS! Sorry John.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-06-2008, 12:47 PM
Its alright Wayne. It might be a while before Tim gets back here to provide some insight, so go on with what you were go to. :)

Tim Kurcz
12-06-2008, 04:28 PM
Spark timing was 22 degrees BTDC, same as run for my 45SS. Valve train oil was simply recirulated using the primer bulb as a reservoir, screened by the pump cover. The exhaust had 12" megs which you will see in images soon.

Tim

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-06-2008, 06:07 PM
Tim:

It sounds like a lot of timing but then Merc 55Hs used around 40 degrees with lower octane gasolines it was based on. On the oiling side and head hot spots would more water flow and a larger oil resevoir with a small oil cooler helped with the hot spotting and warpage or was it all at some limits nothing could realistically help? It is some wild innovative engine! It got me looking at YouTube at some old USA and Italian speed record engines, they were also pretty wild in their times.

From what I gather you always had a spark for the exotics, the ones you could build. You had the vision and have the ability to fabricate what may or may not be available or for the fun and adventure you would have done it for yourself anyway. Being able to do it within class rules came to be the challenge and your projects sure do mirror the interesting and theoretical made real. You sure do instill some interest that is spreading, me thinks. :)

Tim Kurcz
12-07-2008, 11:49 AM
When you analze it, 22 degrees 2-stroke is 44 degrees 4-stroke, so the timing is actually quite radical. The head was typically run at 38 degrees total by Cosworth. Recall this had never been done before, and may not have since. The water cooling problem has only to do with an internal casting feature which pockets in the vertical, Cosworth proved the head cools nicely in the intended horizontal position.

As for the exotics, true enough I could build anything. It's more fun to dissect the rule book and (Smokey Yunick style) build what the book does not cover. You'll see three more curve balls coming for FE next year if all goes according to plan. All are legal, but will press the limit of available reasonably priced metallurgy. My hope is they will survive 5 hours race time; Just enough for one season. I might leak a few images in the spring when it's too late for others to copy. They will easily dominate the race course compared to the competition. Tim

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-07-2008, 12:21 PM
Tim:

I like your thinking, it keeps other developers thinking all the time and wondering. There seems to be more than a few followers of Smokey around out there thinking the same way. There is also a poliferation of cheap two stroke technology out there now and very cheap to dable with in outboards since the 4 stroke heavy outboard iron came along that also helps a lot. :)

F-12
12-07-2008, 01:33 PM
Funny this name has come up in this thread..........You guys picked a winner to discuss regarding designing inside-outside the rule book. I used to go to Smokey's garage during my lunch breaks way back when. (Best Damn Garage in Town) That was on his sign out front. He didn't actually go around the rules and still be legal, he rewrote the record book by what he could accomplish with what was already being used. There was soo much going on in the shop, it was hard to keep up with, and most of the development projects went on late at night. He wasn't a big fan of spectators during this phase. He was one of the keenest minds in the sport.

Tomtall
12-07-2008, 02:07 PM
My high school shop teacher suggested I read one of Smokey's books at 17. Best information I ever got. Well maybe my dads information on girls was better but Smokey was right up there. Read more @

http://www.fireballroberts.com/smokey_yunick1.htm

Tim Kurcz
12-07-2008, 03:37 PM
A belated thanks to Master Oil Racing for the help with posting. I'll try your method, but have decided to cut & paste to the clipboard before attempting a send. The work lost was 45 minutes of typing! Thanks again for your guidance and understanding. Tim

Tim Kurcz
12-07-2008, 03:48 PM
For Charlie and others, "The best damned garage in town" was one of the most enlightening reads of my life right behind Jennings, Bell, Bossaglia, and Blair. It's great to hear from someone who actually saw it in action! Smokey was a testament to the spirit of unbridled development. FE (now 850) allows that same opportunity with minor limitation. My other great passion was the Can-Am series of race cars that developed completely free. As a kid they were fun to watch, reading later of the incredible creativity is pure joy....... Best to all of you developers: A favorite quote from Joe Rusz in R&T: Bring back the unfair advantage! I'm doing it one FE at a time.

Tim

Tomtall
12-07-2008, 04:49 PM
OK --------------------- This next engine was a race engine that was never raced. Can anyone tell us what make,size and maybe year this engine is? For a bonus can you tell us why it could never be raced?

Good Luck! :)

F-12
12-07-2008, 04:52 PM
Thanks for reminding me about something I heard Smokey say one day during a rule book discussion I overheard. One of the people whose car Smokey was improving said something about minor limitations.............Smokeys reply was "Those aren't minor limitations, just minor challenges." He usually overcame them............of course, you didn't need me to tell you that............

Mark75H
12-07-2008, 05:01 PM
B Stock Konig, late 1950's ... raced, just not in the US

They were legal in Canada and Europe, but Stock never really caught on in Europe

F-12
12-07-2008, 06:41 PM
Just by looking at it, I would think the carb placement would be a bad situation. They would be the first parts to get washed down in a turn even if you were out in front. Just a guess.

Tomtall
12-07-2008, 07:03 PM
Well ------------- BRF's Sam Cullis is absolutly correct. It is a "Konig" B stock racer from 1957. This class motor by "Konig" however was never approved by APBA for competition in the "B" stock class. This particular engine that is owned and on display by Mark Suter has a interesting history. Read all about it below.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-07-2008, 08:40 PM
I grew up with a bunch of Smokey's self proclaimed relatives up here with the same extact spelling of name and same origin! LOL! They too, all these self proclaimed cousins were very unabashed about their claims to him being related to them that would have brought smiles to most as they were all farmboys and none of them were at all that inventive but they were always close knit and a very determined bunch Smokey's relatives or not! :)

Glenn Coates
12-08-2008, 07:48 AM
I had the opportunity to race a B stock Konig here in Canada for a couple of years during my well spent but under-funded youth. Considering the 11 ft 3 in hydro I ran it on, and propellor selection of 1, it was reasonably competitive, running mid-field or a little bit better. There was another one here, and if I remember correctly, from Strathroy Ontario (#59 ??) that was competitive and could win. Merc drivers hated us.

The B stock Konig shared most of it's parts with the HRE 3 cyl 30 cu in C motor. Same carb, crank, case, cylinder, piston and rods. I used to think that the HRE engine was just a B stock engine with a cylinder added, but now suspect that it may have been the other may around. The dual Amel carb setup is the same as the HRE, but I believe that after the first year, Konig used the single carb , and crankcase as used on the 2 cyl CM deflector pistoned C engine. And again, if I remember correctly, the single carb was a 28mm Konig carb on the B and a 30mm on the C.

steve jones
12-08-2008, 07:03 PM
Number 59 was Fred Ramsey from Strathroy,Ont. We raced a local class, 2 cyl.unlimited and Fred's Konig would outrun a B Quincy.

Tomtall
12-08-2008, 07:40 PM
OK --------------- These next engines pictured are a "built for fun" engine.

Several different make of antique outboard engines are turned into mod engines for fun competition between club members. These engines were usally built and sold in large numbers in their day so parts are abundent still to tinker to get the most out of them. Pictured below are two examples of such engines.

Can you name what these two engines were in their day and possibly what mods may have been done to them?

Good Luck!:)

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-08-2008, 08:03 PM
When a member posts a name for an engine I get confused. Do they mean that their word "Quincy" is referring to the Quincy Flathead loop engine? Or when they say is Quincy but really mean is a Quincy-Merc padded block Alky deflector? Or Quincy-Merc gasoline fueled Modified? A few times while looking for parts you get people advertising a Quincy when it is Quincy Welding modified engine of some other make, in particular Mercurys. Confusion sets in. Sometimes dates help too in that it can rule out engines not built during that period and were still in the future. :)

That six piped 6 sparkplugged beast I will call it a "heathen" of an engine right now no matter what the real name is!!!!!!!!! LOL!

Roy Hodges
12-08-2008, 11:34 PM
OK --------------- These next engines pictured are a "built for fun" engine.

Several different make of antique outboard engines are turned into mod engines for fun competition between club members. These engines were usally built and sold in large numbers in their day so parts are abundent still to tinker to get the most out of them. Pictured below are two examples of such engines.

Can you name what these two engines were in their day and possibly what mods may have been done to them?

Good Luck!:)........................................... .................................................. ....
The one with the green top, i think it's a Wizard (mercury) .On second thought ,maybe even an Elgin , by West Bend

John Schubert T*A*R*T
12-09-2008, 06:26 AM
.................................................. ...............................................
The one with the green top, i think it's a Wizard (mercury) .On second thought ,maybe even an Elgin , by West Bend

Tom,
Since I know a lot about each, I won't say anything, but when no one can ID the 6 piper, I'll chime in.

G-10 Brian
12-09-2008, 10:54 AM
Tom,
Since I know a lot about each, I won't say anything, but when no one can ID the 6 piper, I'll chime in.

Elgin, and Evinrude Zephyr 5.4 hp

Tomtall
12-09-2008, 04:17 PM
Well ------------- Roy and Brian are correct. Great Job!

The green mod engine started out as a 3.5 hp Elgin. The engine is Mark Suters and with the help of Roger Dykhouse was upgraded to who knows how much horsepower. Just a fun build up. The build up sheet is posted below on what was done to it.

The second engine is a Roger Dykhouse special. He built the "Zepher Super Six" as a gag engine for the 2008 Constatine meet. It is actually a moded 4 cylinder Zepher with 2 extra pipes and 2 extra spark plugs added to make people scratch their heads. It worked. The engine does run and well. Dick Gorz even made up a fake model sheet for Rodgers engine which in in Adobe Reader format at the bottom link.

The second picture is of Roger and Mark recieving their "Dunking Award" at the fall AOMCI meet. It seems the two of them went for a swim off the back of a boat this summer without intending to.:D

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-09-2008, 06:42 PM
Net thing people are going to be enlightened to is that a Yamarude too is a good looking prank engine just like the previous one!!! You bunch of dirty guys! LOL! :)

Its a good looken prank engine!

Tomtall
12-09-2008, 07:47 PM
OK -------------- This next engine was raced by a very popular racer/engine builder/racing historian. It won a National and was restored by its owner to the condition you see here.

Can you tell us the make/size engine this is and maybe who the owner may be?

Good Luck!

Gene East
12-09-2008, 07:59 PM
It's beautiful!

I'm not sure if it's an A or B, but I know one thing for sure, I helped build it and it wasn't this pretty when it left Quincy.

Not sure who it belongs to, but I'm guessing his initials might be J.S.

If so, I'd say it's a "B"

If I'm wrong, I apologize to whomever did such a beautiful restoration!!!

Tomtall
12-09-2008, 08:20 PM
Gene - Your on the spot. It's a "B" and it does belong to J.S..

Know - Can anyone tell us who Gene is talking about? For a bonus tell us what Nationals it won and were? :rolleyes:

Gene East
12-09-2008, 08:53 PM
Just a hint. This J.S. is not Jim Schoch although he did win a FEW championships with a motor like this!

fbref5269
12-10-2008, 05:32 AM
hi all,

i beleive it is john schbert's b looper. it's a beauty! john had several of these and i am lucky enough to have one of them i am restoring. john had a unique spray shield that you can see on the quincy website under collections. that's the shield i have on his engine i have.

as for the national.... i'd say '68 or '69.

frank

greenmerc
12-10-2008, 07:04 AM
That sure looks like John Schuberts B looper love the handywork!!!

Tomtall
12-10-2008, 03:35 PM
Well ----------- You guys are correct!

It is the 1968 DePue Nationals "B" class winning engine of John Schuberts.
John did a great job restoring + a little shine added to his quincy "B".

To read more about Johns accomplishment in more than 50 years of racing visit his scrapbook posted at Skip Hagermans web site @

http://www.antiqueoutboardmotor.info/Schubert/schubert.html

Tomtall
12-10-2008, 03:51 PM
OK ----------------- This next engine is old school. But this particular model was a very rare one. Producted for only one year as a factory racing engine it was short lived due to the great depession and factory buget cuts.

Can you tell us what make,year and model engine this factory racer is?

Good Luck! :)

Roy Hodges
12-10-2008, 04:12 PM
Well ----------- You guys are correct!

It is the 1968 DePue Nationals "B" class winning engine of John Schuberts.
John did a great job restoring + a little shine added to his quincy "B".

To read more about Johns accomplishment in more than 50 years of racing visit his scrapbook posted at Skip Hagermans web site @

http://www.antiqueoutboardmotor.info/Schubert/schubert.html................
.................................................. .................................................. .................................
A "B" looper . Does that make it a "BLOOPER" ?

Tomtall
12-10-2008, 04:14 PM
Stop it Roy. Be good now.:D LOL

F-12
12-10-2008, 04:18 PM
I, too, knew it was John's B Looper............what threw me off was that it never looked that good when he was out there winning. Looking good, Mr. Schubert.

Allen J. Lang
12-10-2008, 05:09 PM
Hi Tom- Can't say what year, but it is an Evinrude/Elto X.
Ye Olde Desert Geezer :cool:

Mark75H
12-10-2008, 05:39 PM
Al is correct, that is an X and not a 4-60 or pumper. The telltale is the intake from the carb going to the top and bottom additional crankshaft rotary valve ports. Only the X motors have the three rotor sections.

Tomtall
12-10-2008, 05:39 PM
Al and Sam your are correct, it is a Evinrude "X" engine. It was produced only one year.

Any takers on the year?

P.S. - Al send some of that warm weather my wayl. :)

John Schubert T*A*R*T
12-11-2008, 08:09 AM
I, too, knew it was John's B Looper............what threw me off was that it never looked that good when he was out there winning. Looking good, Mr. Schubert.

Actually Charlie it did. There also was a cover over the points that was polished, my drive shaft housings were always chromed & the clamp brackets were polished. When I won the nationals in 1968 rather then the merc gear case I used a one tooth under Crescent gear case, also polished. On Monday's after a race weekend, motors came out of the trailer & in to the shop. I then cleaned them using lacquer thinner to remove all residue castor, thus keeping them looking good.

F-12
12-11-2008, 08:12 AM
I guess I just wasn't close enough to see how good it looked. Hard to tell from a half a lap back.....................

John Schubert T*A*R*T
12-11-2008, 08:14 AM
i Guess I Just Wasn't Close Enough To See How Good It Looked. Hard To Tell From A Half A Lap Back.....................


Lol!

Tomtall
12-12-2008, 06:05 PM
Well -------------- As stated before, engine #15 is an Evinrude "X" racing engine, It was only produced one year. 1934-1935. Below is a brief history on the engine.

Mark75H
12-12-2008, 07:50 PM
It was Joe Schauer's intention to make a 59.999 ci crankshaft, but he mismeasured something and the cranks produced by his tooling had too much stroke. Since the special throw blocks he made were not usable for the 4-60, an all out monster motor was made to take advantage of the slight differences in the rules between the "F" class and the "X" class

The Evinrude X is 61 ci, not 60 like a 4-60

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
12-13-2008, 09:31 AM
That is what one calls a beauty of an engine! How fast could they rev and what was the speeds she could get to?

Mark75H
12-13-2008, 10:09 AM
The fastest anyone ever got an X going was around 80 mph, mostly due to boat and prop technology during its time. Don Salisbury would be an expert on the running rpm, my guess would be around 5,500 rpm

Tim Kurcz
01-12-2009, 05:55 AM
Hello all,

This thread has been asleep for too long......... What is this?

Tim

Allen J. Lang
01-12-2009, 10:37 AM
Hi Tim= Might that be the 3 cyl Johnnyrude C engine? :D
Ye Olde Desert Geezer :cool:

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-12-2009, 10:52 AM
Good grief Tim, do you dream these up in your sleep and make them up the next morning! LOL! :)

Looks like a small bore three cylinder OMC mounted on a OMC stock A class tower and gearcase, yes.

Tim Kurcz
01-12-2009, 11:00 AM
Hello Al,

You've got a sharp eye. This engine was only produced by OMC for about six years. It's the best designed triple I've ever seen. Finger ports, direct pyramid reeds, Mod-50 style pulse-tuned exhaust, optical ignition, etc. This version is 35 cu in (a smaller 30 cu in version was also produced) and likely capable of 2 hp/cu in if I perform all tricks. It is being built for my son's 11'-0" V-bottom runabout for laking and will run this spring. My guess is it will deliver 40 hp as shown, adding 25 hp to the A-15 he ran last summer.

Tim

Tim Kurcz
01-13-2009, 09:54 AM
OK BRF fans,

Can you indentify these?

John Schubert T*A*R*T
01-13-2009, 11:47 AM
OK BRF fans,

Can you indentify these?

They are FE engines. 49.9 c.i. home built tower wi SST45 gearcase. I have the same gearcase on my MK75H clone.

John Schubert T*A*R*T
01-13-2009, 11:49 AM
OK BRF fans,

Can you indentify these?


I should also had mentioned that they have OMC Mod 50 flex flywheels so yhey might even be Mod 50 powerheads with large bore carbs.

fbref5269
01-13-2009, 11:57 AM
john,

i'm hearing some nasty rumors that the temps are chiily out there. to stals a phrase from johnny carson...... how cold is it?

frank

John Schubert T*A*R*T
01-13-2009, 12:01 PM
john,

i'm hearing some nasty rumors that the temps are chiily out there. to stals a phrase from johnny carson...... how cold is it?

frank

Must be a nasty rumor. Temps are relative to the latitude of where your state is situated. Having said that, it's freakin cold & going down tonight in to tonight. They are saying it's so cold that the salt won't even work on the packed snow/ice on the roads.On top of that, they are now saying we could get up to 6 more inches of snow overnight. YUK!!!!!

fbref5269
01-13-2009, 12:22 PM
john,

i have a friend in chippawa falls, wi(land of lanekogle beer, sp) and they said it was going to be -25 today with wind chill -40. id' have snotsicles on my mustache. understand the temp will be low for the next 96 hours. i'd call you but i'm afraid the phone would stick to your ear. hang in there warm waether is around the corner(june)

frank

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-13-2009, 04:24 PM
Guys, I don't know what to say! How does one explain a windchill warning with a wind going about 10mph giving the temp equivelent of minus 48 degrees below zero Centigrade??? Minus 40 degrees below is where Centigrade and Farenheit meet! At this point the balls freezing off brass monkeys seems very real! LOL! Sheeeeshe! :)

Me thinks the Red River Ice is going to be some 3 feet thick this winter for sure.

Tim Kurcz
01-13-2009, 07:47 PM
Hi John & Co.,

Those are my best FE powerheads. The spare on the bench now belongs to Mike Ross. The other is my best FE on a fabricated tower that Bud and I built in 1993. That October it went 101 MPH (downwind) on my 12' Ropp and scared the %4#@* out of me. I knew right away a larger boat was needed........ See the "secrets of the Mod 50" thread.

As for your beautiful 75H clone, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sure looks like a Merc 700 powerhead under the wraps. Great twin triple exhaust tuning. Again, great workmanship on that beast. Have you run it yet? Better get used to 95+ if it's done right!

Cool stuff!

F-12
01-13-2009, 08:17 PM
John Schubert does 105 mph when he gets up in the morning.............not a problem.

Gene East
01-13-2009, 08:38 PM
That's before his first cup of coffee!

arcticracer
01-13-2009, 11:25 PM
We just sent the cold wave down from Alaska. Lived with it for about 2 weeks. Saw 49 below at the coldest at my house near Fairbanks. It was 68 below in Chicken, and hovered between 55 below and 65 below in Fort Yukon the whole time.

Temps are without windchill, no wind here when it gets that cold.

Ron Hill
01-14-2009, 12:16 AM
But, Chad and I were trying to box a Merc V-6 today and it was 91 degrees. Damn near had heat stroke...1/13/2009 in Southern California...No wonder we talk Boat Race 24-7, 365....

ON TOPIC: Tim K.. are you still looking for a right hand wheel to go on a 45 gearcase??? Finally have several with no homes...

oldalkydriver
01-14-2009, 12:24 AM
December 8 - 6:00 PM
It started to snow. The first snow of the season and the wife and
I took our cocktails and sat for hours by the window watching the
huge soft flakes drift down from heaven. It looked like a Grandma
Moses Print. So romantic we felt like newlyweds again. I love snow!

December 9
We woke to a beautiful blanket of crystal white snow covering
every inch of the landscape. What a fantastic sight! Can there
be a more lovely place in the whole world? Moving here was the
best idea I've ever had! Shovelled for the first time in years
and felt like a boy again. I did both our driveway and the
sidewalks. This afternoon the snowplough came along and covered
up the sidewalks and closed in the driveway, so I got to shovel
again. What a perfect life!

December 12
The sun has melted all our lovely snow. Such a disappointment!
My neighbour tells me not to worry- we'll definitely have a white
Christmas. No snow on Christmas would be awful! Bob says we'll
have so much snow by the end of winter, that I'll never want to
see snow again. I don't think that's possible. Bob is such a
nice man, I'm glad he's our neighbour.

December 14
Snow, lovely snow! 8 inches last night. The temperature dropped
to -20. The cold makes everything sparkle so. The wind took my
breath away, but I warmed up by shovelling the driveway and
sidewalks. This is the life! The snowplow came back this
afternoon and buried everything again. I didn't realize I would
have to do quite this much shovelling, but I'll certainly get back
in shape this way. I wish I wouldn't huff and puff so.

December 15
20 inches forecast. Sold my van and bought a 4x4 Blazer. Bought
snow tires for the wife's car and 2 extra shovels. Stocked the
freezer. The wife wants a wood stove in case the electricity goes
out. I think that's silly. We aren't in Alaska , after all.

December 16
Ice storm this morning. Fell on my *** on the ice in the driveway
putting down salt. Hurt like hell. The wife laughed for an hour,
which I think was very cruel.

December 17 Still way below freezing. Roads are too icy to go
anywhere. Electricity was off for 5 hours. I had to pile the
blankets on to stay warm. Nothing to do but stare at the wife and
try not to irritate her. Guess I should've bought a wood stove,
but won't admit it to her. God I hate it when she's right. I
can't believe I'm freezing to death in my own living room.

December 20
Electricity's back on, but had another 14 inches of the damn stuff
last night. More shovelling! Took all day. The damn snowplow
came by twice. Tried to find a neighbour kid to shovel, but they
said they're too busy playing hockey. I think they're lying.
Called the only hardware store around to see about buying a snow
blower and they're out. Might have another shipment in March. I
think they're lying. Bob says I have to shovel or the city will
have it done and bill me. I think he's lying.

December 22
Bob was right about a white Christmas because 13 more inches of
the white **** fell today, and it's so cold, it probably won't
melt till August. Took me 45 minutes to get all dressed up to go
out to shovel and then I had to piss. By the time I got
undressed, pissed and dressed again, I was too tired to shovel.
Tried to hire Bob who has a plough on his truck for the rest of
the winter, but he says he's too busy. I think the ******* is lying.

December 23
Only 2 inches of snow today. And it warmed up to 0. The wife
wanted me to decorate the front of the house this morning. What
is she, nuts?!! Why didn't she tell me to do that a month ago?
She says she did but I think she's lying.

December 24
6 inches - Snow packed so hard by snowplow, I broke the shovel.
Thought I was having a heart attack. If I ever catch the son of a
bitch who drives that snow plough, I'll drag him through the snow
by his balls and beat him to death with my broken shovel. I know
he hides around the corner and waits for me to finish shovelling
and then he comes down the street at a 100 miles an hour and
throws snow all over where I've just been! Tonight the wife
wanted me to sing Christmas carols with her and open our presents,
but I was too busy watching for the damn snowplow.

December 25
Merry f---ing Christmas! 20 more inches of the damn slop tonight
Snowed in. The idea of shovelling makes my blood boil. God, I
hate the snow! Then the snowplow driver came by asking for a
donation and I hit him over the head with my shovel. The wife
says I have a bad attitude. I think she's a fricking idiot. If I
have to watch "It's A Wonderful Life" one more time, I'm going to
stuff her into the microwave.

December 26
Still snowed in. Why the hell did I ever move here? It was all
HER idea. She's really getting on my nerves.

December 27
Temperature dropped to -30 and the pipes froze; plumber came after
14 hours of waiting for him, he only charged me $1,400 to replace
all my pipes.

December 28
Warmed up to above -20. Still snowed in. The BITCH is driving me
crazy!!!

December 29
10 more inches. Bob says I have to shovel the roof or it could
cave in. That's the silliest thing I ever heard. How dumb does
he think I am?

December 30
Roof caved in. I beat up the snowplow driver, and now he is
suing me for a million dollars, not only the beating I gave him,
but also for trying to shove the broken snow shovel up his ***.
The wife went home to her mother. Nine more inches predicted.

December 31
I set fire to what's left of the house. No more shovelling.


January 8
Feel so good. I just love those little white pills they keep
giving me. Why am I tied to the bed?

Tim Kurcz
01-14-2009, 05:18 AM
Hi Ron,

Yep - thought you'd never ask! It/they need to be about 8" dia X 13" pitch +/-. A two blade is OK to prove the concept, though 3 or 4 might be better. Let me know what you can make.

Tim

John Schubert T*A*R*T
01-14-2009, 08:22 AM
Hi John & Co.,

Those are my best FE powerheads. The spare on the bench now belongs to Mike Ross. The other is my best FE on a fabricated tower that Bud and I built in 1993. That October it went 101 MPH (downwind) on my 12' Ropp and scared the %4#@* out of me. I knew right away a larger boat was needed........ See the "secrets of the Mod 50" thread.

As for your beautiful 75H clone, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sure looks like a Merc 700 powerhead under the wraps. Great twin triple exhaust tuning. Again, great workmanship on that beast. Have you run it yet? Better get used to 95+ if it's done right!

Cool stuff!

Yup, it's a 700, always put the most c.i.'s under the shrouding that you can fit.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-14-2009, 10:01 AM
Arcticracer:

We just set a new 100 year record yesterday with a minus 48 degrees below zero C! Ever ask yourself how a Mod Merc or OMC would run ifn you cut a hole in the ice, dunked it, started it and rev'd it at that low temperature? The summer jetting would be too lean for sure! LOL!

See that dear readers, after going on 6 weeks of really far below normal temperatures goofy ideas like that pop out because cabin fever is setting in! By the time the temperature goes up to just the freezing mark people are gonna don shorts, T-shirts and go partyin in the streets after not being dumped on by snow at all its just been too cold for too long!

Ron Hill
01-14-2009, 11:59 AM
I'm dying of heat stroke in California..85 today and you guys keep talking about cool snow! Hmmm!

Tim you appear to have amazing machining skills...so I'll send you a prop and you can bush it...If the project seems to be working..I weld up two two blades and make you a four blade...

BUT this or these props aren't free...There are strings attached...

I want build, and this is on my "BUCKET LIST" a small outboard race motor between 6 and 12 HP. I want to use a 4 stroke like sit down mower/generator motor and I want to make it with a flex shaft..Spring drive like RC boats.. Wil Paramore was helping a little, but sad to say "Geezer Racer" is gone...His electric boats will live forever...

8 3/4 X 13, Right hand..

Deal???

I need to go shower, too hot here! Think I'll move to Needles!

Shoot me an address: Ronhill@hillmarine.com

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-14-2009, 05:19 PM
Ron Hill: Fry baby, fry!! LOL! The reason why our complextions are so smooth and zit free is not because of Guthy Renker's medicated masks for $19.95 or $24.95 in Canada, we look so young for years so much longer is because the other 1/3 of a year the skin on out faces is frooooozen!!

Comboing 2 good similar 2 blade props to make a 4 blade prop for development has produced some humdingers! By that I mean good ones that sure are different running from what they started out as. It is neat seeing more built that way bringing an abundance of 2 blade stainless props that might otherwise be sitting on a shelf gathering dust.

Tim Kurcz
01-14-2009, 06:42 PM
OK Ron,

I'm in for the deal BUT need a couple of things:

First, the prop has to clear a 45SS gearcase cavitation plate so diameter needs to be no more than 8-1/4". Will you make that so? Bushing it here is no problem.

Second, I gotta know the purpose of your "bucket list" project. Sounds like fun! I'm guessing there's money on the table somewhere!

Go see the Mod 50 thread to understand why the prop is needed. We'll talk about the spring drive later.........

Tim

kws
01-16-2009, 06:50 AM
Must be a nasty rumor. Temps are relative to the latitude of where your state is situated. Having said that, it's freakin cold & going down tonight in to tonight. They are saying it's so cold that the salt won't even work on the packed snow/ice on the roads.On top of that, they are now saying we could get up to 6 more inches of snow overnight. YUK!!!!!

23 below zero when i got up this morning. wind chill 41 below. but heck its up to 19 below now 37 below wind chill. its supposed to be a high temp of 11 below today.

to the gentleman from Alaska. I feel your pain! unfortunately here usually the colder it gets the harder the wind blows (sometimes i think its just pissed off it hasn't made it to warm states yet LOL)

Roy Hodges
01-16-2009, 07:33 AM
If you just think about the "Global Warming" , maybe you'll feel the "warmth".

Master Oil Racing Team
01-16-2009, 08:14 AM
......thank God for global warming.:rolleyes: If it wasn't for that, you guys up there would be frozen in a block of ice like the wooly mammoths.;):D

Ron Hill
01-16-2009, 08:49 AM
A "Bucket List" as I understand it, it what you want to do before you "KICK" the "BUCKET"....My list right now has one item:

1. Build a small VERY INEXPENSIVE racing outboard....

When my son Chad was really little, we were in the hobbie store and there was an RC Bud Light...seriously cheap plastic and an electric motor for like $29.95, maybe $19.95 made in China....It didn't run very well. It didn't last very long. It was SO MUCH FUN, when we broke most of the pieces, we went to buy another but they were sold out. I never saw them again.

My point fun is where you find it. Just messing with it and my son was way cool.

I have felt for YEARS that a small motor on a small foam boat that could be sold in Hobby Stores could bring hundreds, maybe thousands of people pleasure...Pleasure of messing with something simple.

KB and outboard and most weed eater boats use a spring drive, no gears and they seem to work well.

Rod Zapf reminded me yesterday, that he and Pat Gudvangen used a Pontiac flex drive shaft in their kilo record hold 72 Cubic Inch inboard hydro......35 years ago!!!

If you realize it or not, their is probably one million RC boats in the WORLD, most are now powered by small two stroke, gas burning "Weed Eater" type motors. RC boaters are very serious about their hobbie.

It PAINS me to see Unlimited Hydros want to be separate from the rest of the Boat Racing World, I ASSUME, because they are so important that they don't need small boaters...though 90 per cent of their drivers once raced small boats....

AND maybe because I can from AU (15 HP Mercury on a runabout, 42 and a half miles per hour). I never felt MORE important winning Havasu with 128 boats driving a twin engine Evinrude, that I did winning a trophy dash of Speedboat Rodeo.....in my AU. Racing was always racing to me. I recall my best racing was in 36 Cubic Inc class.....39 MPH...

Anyway, my Outboard motor isn't about money. If I made a ton, I'd be like Paul Newman was...I'd give all the profits away to PROMOTE BOAT RACING...

I just see, in my minds eye...A cool looking little boat, a little electric start generator type motor, and my 6'5" frame driving and going about 20 MPG...and some 10 year old kid flying by going 22 MPH.

Maybe a composite prop, or a Wayne Baldwin GREEN PROP on it!!!

****Don't ask about the GREEN PROP as it is TOP SECRET at this time!!!

LAST ADD: I was riding my GT Cruiser (BMX) bike over a jump once, Chad,was 6, he came flying by me like a freight trains passing a tram (Homeless person)..I quit BMX on the spot!

Ron Hill
01-16-2009, 09:04 AM
Yesterday, Rod Zapf, Dave Bryan and I went to Apple Valley marine...Rod, thought we were going to go NON-Stop, as a retired pilot he likes non-stop flights, but I made a flew "Unscheduled" stops along the way...and you think I can BITCH...

Anyway, here is some of the stuff we picked up YESTERDAY and a few pictures of Southern California...Thems my bare feet, as it is quite warm and beautiful today. Dave Bryan is coming over again, we need to ship an engine or two, he's got an eye exam at 11:30...then, we got stuff to do....

That is our condo, where Laurie and I have just re-done the kitchen, cabinets get finished today....As Lars says, "life is good"...But I do have a "BUCKET LIST".

Not sure the temperature today, but think I'll head to Blythe and go testing Sunday with Ernie and Tammy Dawe.

Can you guess what everything is in my pictures?

Orange carton is metamucil...neeed that stuff at my age!

See my new bag, with a NEW Lifeline jacket in it....??? Ready to go Classic Outboarding...

Tim Kurcz
01-16-2009, 10:00 AM
Lemme see:

45SS in pieces, a Merc 4-cyl, a Merc contra-rotating stern drive gearcase, a fillet knife, some large hub 45SS wheels with a Merc thru-hub SS wheel. I'll have to go back to the images to see the rest.

BTW: Now I understand the flex shaft motor. I'm thinking a shaft from an earth auger might do the job. The rest is academic.

Tim

Add the Merc V-6 carb/manifold/reed cage set up!

Ron Hill
01-17-2009, 09:03 PM
Dino says this isn't his motor...I know he has about seven of these things, but this one is supposed to belong to a guy named Gilman (not Scott) in Havasu City, Arizona...It has a 6:71 blower on it...

Mark75H
01-17-2009, 09:42 PM
.It has a 6:71 blower on it...

I think we have seen that on Screamandfly ... eye candy, but no big hp output numbers because the exhaust port lets the supercharge out unlike a 4 stroke where the exhaust valve keeps it in.

Master Oil Racing Team
01-17-2009, 09:43 PM
....But I think I'll go ahead and use my pickup bed.;):D Besides...They'll think twice before kicking that.

I like the digs Ron. The "green prop" could be fun to play with, but the other stuff will be cool too when we get back on track. Joeflow has a lot on his plate now with all the car racing successes he's had with his valves.

Ron Hill
01-17-2009, 09:50 PM
Dino is a little SHY about things...But he does have about 7-8 V-8's...we used to race offshore together and we ran twin V-8 Evinrudes...mentioned here somewhere...

Dino wants to win the enduro...Here's his mid section...

Dino was one of the first to race with a capsule, his Burgess broke a hole in a sponson and started to sink, the scorers, at San Diego, were screaming that he was strapped in and going to drown...Dino, climbed out, no problems, but about three scorer damn near fainted...
Dino is also a "FULL ON HEALTH NUT" he'll eat two tuna sandwiches at lunch.....when you see him, he doesn't really look his 140 years...

Tim Kurcz
01-18-2009, 06:18 PM
Today I started work on 444-2. Sawing & carving the crankcase cover and fitting the manifold casting took about 5 hours. It'll be ready for epoxy in another hour. I'll post images as the build progresses.

Tim

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-18-2009, 10:08 PM
From other pictures it was kind of hard to see but only to visualize how your casting was fit before the welding went on and machining opened her up. Its a neat casting. That is a lot of work to it but who can argue with the results! Going with the same intake and exhaust porting or going to try something a different twist?

There is no doubt in my mind that to have a rules abiding version I am going to have to get a casting from you to do the same thing for a legal engine once things free up here more in 2009. The Nydahl casting multi-carb front cased engine here I dub as the Mercenfreak 44 is much like the 6 carb pyramidal reed Merc Mark 75 pictured on here are both outside the rules but do lend some approaches with differences one always finds with engine experimenters. They kind of show what could have been but won't be.

Keep all this up because you are imparting your work on those it interests who may try and for others just to inform that people with differences are always trying and doing things.

Mark75H
01-18-2009, 10:29 PM
4 carbs are allowed on 44's in 850 Mod

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-18-2009, 10:31 PM
Tim:

Sometime back in the 1960s when the Anzanis were into a transmission coupled setup to make a 4 cylinder class C Alky like the type Floyd Harris Jr. campaigned on a runabout it appears that Ray Nydahl was also into something similar using 2 Merc 4 cylinder engines the same way and there is a picture of him with some ladies here on BRF with that coupled Merc engine in the background. Last year I looked at the smoked looking Merc oriented but unfinished mounting adapter of 3/4 inch aluminum that was in Tenney's garage fire back in 1967 but with all I got I paid no attentions (stupidly so) to the odds and sods of aluminum that came with the stuff. It looked weird until I realized with stud patterns guides that some one there was planning to mount 2 Merc 4 cylinder engines on that adapter to an Anzani engine coupler with one engine facing forward and one rearward so as to fit the coupler input configurations and differences to fit the 2 Mercs together successfully with some kind of pipes facing rearward as there are not indicators of exhausts vents going down through the adapter and who wants exhaust gases coming over the transom and into the boat!

Accoding to NOA rules at the time, two coupled Merc Mark 30s would have made a legal class F engine back then. If that was their thinking it would have been an 8 cylinder entry in Alky racing. More about the coupled twin Mercs that are unidirectional behind Ray Nydahl still remain a mystery for now. I would sure like to learn more.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-18-2009, 10:47 PM
A Merc 44 - 4 carb with a made for racing front case in 850 Modified.

That is giving up a large chunk of displacement with its power but getting some good engineering and reliability from the well proven Merc 44 blocks. Every time I see anything much about the larger Merc 4 cylinder engines used in 850 class, the newer direct charged versions not unlike the Merc 2 carb 3 Holers they too, these 4 cylinder engines seemed to have somekind of piston scoring problems probably related to heat. Any time I have seen one for sale in the past they have had some kind of piston problems. Maybe there is a niche here for the Merc 44s gone further outside of FE rules with custom made for Alky racing multicarb front cases. Still there are going to be very few doing it and definitely less going that way than Tim's route to make a 4 carb doable rule meeting FE Merc 44. There is something nice about AOF rules in that if you come up with an engine that is unusual, but meets standarized displacement rules, out of courtesy to the racers with them the AOF has fit them in with some flexability with other racers with speed similar engines and give you a race. I am not sure but NBRA might also do such a coutesy but not to my knowlege the APBA or CBF though I stand to be corrected anytime.

Tim Kurcz
01-19-2009, 03:32 AM
Hi John,

The 444 conversion was designed to be absolutely legal in APBA by using the existing crankcase cover. BTW: There is no welding - only aluminum filled epoxy and bolts. I've not queried the AOF, but Jim Robb offered to take it to the NBRA Nationals and was told it is illegal there.

Your Nydahl front end will work nicely, but may be bounced by the APBA as this "made for racing" part takes place of the "recognizable block and crankcase" rule. My interepretation is the rule was meant to keep factory race parts out; I'd build it anyway and petition a rule change if needed.

As for the twin Mercs, exhaust can go either way. The thought of building one just for the sound intrugues me, but the result would be more weight than my 13' Ropp can handle!

Tim

BTW: The 62 ci Merc never did well in Alky or Mod according to Bud Parker and others I've known that tried to run it. The 444 is still your best Merc FE.

Mark75H
01-19-2009, 06:16 AM
I have never heard of any piston scoring problem with the 44's have you Tim?

Tim Kurcz
01-19-2009, 07:01 AM
I've never heard of scoring of 44 pistons except in blocks where "boiler cement" was used to rigidly bond filler blocks in dry stack systems, except in cases of lack of oil, or cooling loss.

Tim

PS I think John was referring to the 62 ci Merc650 which is a known piston burner.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-19-2009, 10:15 AM
Tim:

Your correct, I was referring to the bigger Merc (62 inch) engines having pistons problems. I have never known of any problematic piston conditions on the smaller Merc 4s from 30, 40 and 44 cubic inch sizes. I have never had a problem with any of them in my stock racing days either, not a once even. Just wearouts from use. To me the Mercury series of engines from 30, 40 & 44 cubic inch 4 cylinder engines were the best engines Merc ever built for 4 cylinder engines engineering & metalurgy wise with just the Mark 30s 30 inch engines having weak lungs other than that its block was over engineered for its bore size but under engineered for the 30H racing gearcase which I grew to hate somewhat similarly to the loathing I felt for the 2 carb 3 Holer Mercs and Mariners later!

The Nydahl front case is being developed and I still need to go your direction on building a legal 44 FE using your principles of adding to meet rules than re-inventing a new front case which is what the Nydahl was for in Alky racing.

When you look at that picture of Ray Nydahl with that twin Merc setup as it appears to be but both are configured facing standard forward and exhausts rearward and downward there is no indication of what couples the powerheads to the common tower. I have one more servicable twin engine coupler here soaking to get it apart for new bearings and seals and with that adapter already started by Tenney having one Merc facing forward, one rearward and all pipes setup (Bayer aluminum, Parkers etc. aluminum sets for lighter weight) facing rearward it is concievable to build an 8 cylinder coupled Merc from 30 X2 or 40 X 2 or 44 X 2 engine with gearing set to fire one cylinder every 45 degrees from a coupled engine would make noise that would shake boulders out of cliffs and or cause avalanches! I suspect that with 2 Mark 30s the coupler transmission would be okay but above that 60 combined cubic inch mark going to 80 and 88 cubic inches an oil cooler and oil pump would be required to cool the 90 weight hypoid oil it uses. Doing all the measurements since figuring out that smoked unfinished adapater plate out makes this project doable. The only matched blocks I have left now are a few Merc 400 - 44 cubic inch blocks and until this got identified I really did not want to build another Mercury after the Twister, the Nydahl 44 and your kind of FE 44 gets finished but to get to build this kind of 8 cylinder coupled Merc engine changes that feeling. Its like saying one more for old times sake! The notion is very powerful making one want to do it.

I have Wayne Walgraves restored 1970 - 13.5 foot Chaparral class F wedge hydro Alky boat here and it carried 6 cylinder Quincy Flatheads very successfully, I suspect this twin 8 cylinder setup might be 30 to 40 pounds heavier than that and could go on there to be run. I suspect though it would need a big Konig, Speedmaster or Chrysler etc. lower unit to take the power and torque depending on what the 2 power heads coupled together on top would do. Neat thing is that the more cylinders you pile up on gearcases that have some relativity to what your doing it becomes less hard on the gears themsleves. That is what they found with the coupled twin Anzani C Alky. They fired the 4 cylinders alternating at 90 degrees as well as 180 degrees and found the worst wear was when there was the 180 degree firing and more normal wear at 90 degrees of firing for 4 cylinders. Its interesting stuff. Doing a coupled Merc 4 X 2 of any sort I would still resort to making them Modified Gassers anyway for ease of starting and tuning. Good lord, they would present themselves as engines that the use of "fixed jets" would actually be a logical requirement as how would one tune a monster like that twisting all the high speed needles like some 30H or 55H, C,D, D or FE modified, how could I forgive myself to my addiction to turnable high speed jet needles??? LOL!

Original Looper 1
01-19-2009, 12:08 PM
To All - Concerning the super secret 8-88:

My father told me that was one of the best kept secret factory efforts at the time that he recalled. I think there are still people that know about that project, but were sworn to secrecy. However, the stories that I've heard about the torque that monster produced are frightening. Story also has it that they had to reach far outside the traditional racing circles to find test pilots willing to challenge it's performance potential while still keeping this project a top secret.

Paul A Christner

ps: I'd rather not comment any further on this subject, even though I think I know where the original prototype is currently located.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-19-2009, 01:53 PM
Oh Boy! This news is delicious! Thank you! I won't ask anymore either as I am just going to produce the version is obvious here from the adapter already started some time back in the 1960s with some intent to go there. Bill Tenney was pursuing something that British Anzani had already done and Floyd Harris Jr. was campaigning a variant of that sits here restored as the twin block 4 cylinder coupled block Anzani Alky class C. That an 8 cylinder made with 2 - 44 inch Mercs is astonishing! Quincy could have taken that concept to monstrous levels with its Flatheads that are not short of mind boggling! Yes, It would have taken some drivers with cojones found on some buffalo to deal with driving such a beast. With this news that is one twin Merc 8 cylinder that is going to happen here. Now if I can find enough Quincy aluminum stack products to build the period exhaust system it could have had now comes to be part of seek and find though if not some other brand of aluminum pipes will have to do but that is only after trying to find the Quincy products becomes exhausted. Just to think I had a set of 2 into 1 elbos about 8 years ago and let them go just goes to show you why restorers are by nature somewhat packratish!

Tim Kurcz
01-19-2009, 07:03 PM
Wow John........ You go for it! A 45 degree phased 8-cyl Merc would be an awesome sound and need a Speedmaster to transmit the power. Don't even think of a 45SS or Koenig. Good luck. Be sure to put up some pics.

Speaking of which, here is tonights 444.2 update.

Tim

To all: These images stretch the thread subject. Do you want to see more?

Gene East
01-19-2009, 07:53 PM
John,

I now own all the Quincy patterns for filler blocks and aluminum elbows for the Mercury motors.

They are in need of a lot of repair. After all, some of them are 50 years old. I hope to get them in shape to be used by spring.

A lot depends on my back problems, but brand new, genuine Quincy exhaust for Mercurys is a real possibility in the future.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-19-2009, 09:03 PM
Tim:

This kind of Merc 8 - 88 is not as far off in terms of concept to built engine parts wise as the only things missing is a gearcase, exhaust systems, oil cooler, oil circulating pump and a prop. I have everything else parts and components wise. There is of course machine work, some welding and mechanics to it but otherwise it just the missing parts assemblies listed above.

Concerning your casting and machine work. That is neat the way your doing it, setting it up and machined fitting it over the Mercury crankcase for next stage bonding. Out of curiousity I was looking at lost wax casting due to the need to have more Tenney designed and made filler exhaust plugs done again that used to plug the rectangular Anzani cast iron block exhaust casting outlet to completely square and then changing the shape of the exhaust from square to round at the exhaust pipe flange to megaphone. Would lost wax casting have made a closer fitting casting to bond on if looked at or would there be too much shrinkage involved in the casting metal preventing using that method for making any kind of relative casting?

Gene:

It would be good to see more products available in terms of racing pipes, Quincy pipes products at that especially knowing you were their principal pipe maker fo so long. Selling what you make is paramount too and would need support from engine builders and restorers for that matter. Its a circle of support. Count me in. I have seen Quincy type elbos etc. on other makes of engines other Mercs so applications are wide.

Tim Kurcz
01-20-2009, 05:33 AM
Hi John,

Shrink is the biggest issue: Aluminum is 1/8" per foot, hence you want to build a new design with a shrink scale no matter what pattern material you choose. If you want to create a pattern to fit to an existing piece (like the 444), you make a direct pull in clay, but recognize there is no allowance for shrink. For this reason the 444 manifold takes time to fit. Should the conversion become more popular, I'll section a fitted casting, add 1/8" to the center and re-pattern to reduce fitting time. There have been three sets of 444 castings poured. We'll see what the market and racing, collector, and racing world brings.

Tim

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-20-2009, 08:48 AM
Tim:

That amount of aluminum shrinkage is why some casting molders like my Father became/was used aluminum alloys to create objects where shrinkage and on the other side, expansion when the product was put into use was a factor from aluminums he called piston grade aluminum where their alloys shrank so little under the various conditions where heat or vibration was involved so castings could me made tighter fitting than others resulting in less machining to fit objects that could be mated to. Similarly when the product was put in use expansion was so little leakage and alignments were not problematic.

It was at nearing his retirement when great interest was being shown in an offshoot of casting, plastic injection molding where high heat resistent thermoplastics were being used in automotive and other fields where of all things, carbon fiber was being looked at as an alternative for many metals for coverings and different structural purposes where light weight and rigidity aspects were part of the desires. Similarly great strides were made in very light weight catalyst cured epoxy plastics that would be combined with different fillers to form structural properties similar to what thermoplastics could exhibit but with less capital intensive machinery to make objects that rivaled metal castings for the purposes they were made.

My father taught me the basics of so many aspects of good basic casting practices and basic methods and know how it was as if it was one gift he gave as a reminder of who he was and what he did to be as a part of his life he wanted to be remembered for. It is only in these recent times like with what your doing is calling up those teachings for thought and use. Projects like your efforts and results provoke innovation most would not venture to. What your doing is great and at the same time very educational for those so motivated. :)

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-20-2009, 09:25 AM
When my neighbor obtained his first Mercury racing engine, a used Merc KG9 it came in a crate not only mounted on a H type racing tower, it also came with the stock fishing type gearcase, tower and clamps complete and the bolt up tiller handle assembly that allowed you to remove the racing cable mount and use it for fishing use. It also came with corresponding props so it was plain the engine was dual purpose and that is what Ted Coates did do with the engine, dual purpose and used it just that way.

Here I am all fired up about a Merc 8 - 88 and I have a near complete Merc Twister I that has not only the lower unit that can handle a V-8, a Speedmaster MC1 "biggy" but also a super heavy duty tower to hold that 250+ pound OPC engine on the raceboat. It seems to me that such a situation lends itself to dual purposes in particular make the coupled Merc 8 - 88 engine that with a suitable edapter plate, driveshaft coupler and cooling water distribution lines could result in a Merc Twister I complete powerhead that can be set aside and substituted with the Merc 8 - 88 and used and presented as such as a unit very strong in all to do the job. It is an interesting option that would result in not selling the Twister I but keeping it and using it no different than Ted Coates was able to use his dual purpose Merc KG9. Still, if some one finally takes the Twister I that same idea could be transfered into getting similar components of the Merc racing kind to do the same job all heavy duty and then virtually all Mercury maybe a little lighter as the Speedmaster MC1 is almost as heavy as a Merc 20H class B engine in comparisson all by itself so a ligher Speedmaster like that found on other Merc racing engines with tower would have to be a to find objective.

Right now I have a super duty steel tower that has mounting adapters for Konig D-F and Mercury D but other adapters are easily made for differing units in any case so there is a lot of flexability here to get to the Merc 8 - 88 engine or smaller but then Mark 30s and Mark 55s are few and far between these days even up here to make a smaller displacement Merc 8 "? cuber". As of this morning 2 complete Bayer all aluminum exhausts systems have also turned up being offered to assist in this 8 - 88 project, but they are not the Quincy aluminum systems yearned for so the wait and find is on. :)

Sam La Banco
01-20-2009, 10:57 AM
At OMC all engines were protoyped as sand castings, there were different alloys poured for different reasons, but in general the pattern shop used:

.011 inch per inch as the shrink factor allowance.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-20-2009, 12:36 PM
Sam LaBanco:

That small shrinkage reminds me of the properties of piston grade aluminum with a high silicon content. You can make notoriously thin walled strong castings with that stuff and from a pound for pound cost it is quite expensive and much desirable when it comes to metal recylcers these days.

*Where can one find some of your designed and cast exhaust systems these days. (Question) I had 2 sets complete to do 2 Merc 4 cylinder engines, I used one but sold the other! (you are hearing weeping now and gnashing of teeth).

Sam La Banco
01-21-2009, 11:56 AM
Hi John,

The .011 inch per inch figure for a shrink factor for sand cast aluminum was for almost all general purpose Aluminum alloys. The shrink factor for high SIL. content alloys like A-132 that is used on pistons is .008 inch per inch.

As far as the exhaust systems go, the last set I know of, is under my work bench where we build our SST 60 motors.

Who knows maybe I'll buy one of those new Hot Rod motors and use it there.
I'm sure it will work even better on that motor.

Roy Hodges
01-21-2009, 12:32 PM
Hi John,

The .011 inch per inch figure for a shrink factor for sand cast aluminum was for almost all general purpose Aluminum alloys. The shrink factor for high SIL. content alloys like A-132 that is used on pistons is .008 inch per inch.

As far as the exhaust systems go, the last set I know of, is under my work bench where we build our SST 60 motors.

Who knows maybe I'll buy one of those new Hot Rod motors and use it there.
I'm sure it will work even better on that motor............................................. .......................
.................................................. .................................................. ..................................
Sam; Maybe ONLY you can answer this ; why did OMC never build a 3 cylinder version of the 44 cube -2cylinder 60 horse motor ? With tuned exhaust ,like the 75 stinger, it would put out a good 100 horsepower, or more , w/2 barrel carbs . the 66 cubic inches and long stroke , long rods , what an engine !

Sam La Banco
01-21-2009, 01:59 PM
There was not to much thinking of race engines at OMC, and the directive from Strang was that they must be based on production engines.

Other than the race group, there was not much interest in racing in the engine section there,.........other than a few people, most were just regular working guys that would have worked on anything as long as it was a job.

It took me about 3 years there before I believed that, but its the truth.
I'm sure it's the same at Mercury.

You should believe that it's much, much harder to design and produce a fishing motor.
When thousands and thousands of motors have to go out the door that work,
first time every time, now thats tough, believe it.

Roy Hodges
01-21-2009, 03:46 PM
There was not to much thinking of race engines at OMC, and the directive from Strang was that they must be based on production engines.

Other than the race group, there was not much interest in racing in the engine section there,.........other than a few people, most were just regular working guys that would have worked on anything as long as it was a job.

It took me about 3 years there before I believed that, but its the truth.
I'm sure it's the same at Mercury.

You should believe that it's much, much harder to design and produce a fishing motor.
When thousands and thousands of motors have to go out the door that work,
first time every time, now thats tough, believe it................................................ ........... I DO believe what you say ; 100%. I just think that , making a 3 cylinder version of the 60 horse 2 cylinder (44) it would have been AT LEAST 90 h.p. and cheaper to build , with less parts , and more economical on fuel , than the cross flow 85 &100 h.p. V-4's .
not to mention a lighter weight motor. And as for Mercury , you have to be correct! NOBODY can pinch a penny like Brunswick, and make it look like they are high roller spendthrifts.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
01-21-2009, 05:48 PM
Both Merc and OMC must have recruitted a bunch of expatraite Scottish engineers, mechanics and production workers locally and from the UK. They are so cheap and so thrifty they "re-use air" to play their fur bearing bagpipes! Now that is cheap!

Sam La Banco
02-02-2009, 11:53 AM
Roy,

A few years ago, Evinrude introduced a new engine model, which is as good (actually far better) than what your suggesting.

The 3-cylinder, 79 ci , direct injected 2-stroke, Evinrude E-tec, is sold as a 75hp model and a 90hp model.

It's a great engine. Very good power, great fuel economy, durable, very quiet, lightweight, and good lookin' and you can buy one today.

The cross flow v-4's have been out of production for over 10 years.

Roy Hodges
02-02-2009, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=Sam La Banco;67577]Roy,

A few years ago, Evinrude introduced a new engine model, which is as good (actually far better) than what your suggesting.

The 3-cylinder, 79 ci , direct injected 2-stroke, Evinrude E-tec, is sold as a 75hp model and a 90hp model.

It's a great engine. Very good power, great fuel economy, durable, very quiet, lightweight, and good lookin' and you can buy one today.

The cross flow v-4's have been out of production for over 10 years.....................................
.................................................. .................................................. ..............................
YES, i know about THIS engine, & I do NOT doubt you. But, i am crying over spilled milk, some thing that could have been done 30 odd years ago. It seems to me the current motor you're talking about is very heavy (like maybe 1/2 of a V-6 powerhead )and now days , very high priced . Along with everything else . Except for bass motors (V-6's)
and small fishing motors , i doubt many outboards are sold anymore. I know I'll never buy another NEW outboard.

Tomtall
02-20-2009, 04:47 PM
OK ------------ Here is one for you outboard sluths. This one of kind mod engine was built for an anonymous owner. It runs very well. Can you tell us what engine this mod was built around and some of the mods that were done?

Good Luck! :D

Tim Kurcz
02-23-2009, 03:09 AM
Hi Tom,

You've got to love this site! Never heard or seen of this engine before, but somebody knew what they were doing. Definitely an OMC with twin plug heads, a two-bbl front and auxiliary one-bbl at the transfers with a cam linkage. Interesting it has a D-Merc gearcase which tells me it had to make some power. Also, it appears the exhaust is totally enclosed; perhaps an internal expansion chamber? Judging from the boat vintage and the 2-blade prop, I'm guessing it ran early FE taking advantage of the no-minimum weight rules, because it's way too radical for 25Mod........

Tim

Looking again, there are what appear to be three reed plates behind the front carb. Perhaps these are spacers to allow higher reed opening.

RogerH
02-23-2009, 07:14 AM
Tom,
I was working on a "fishing" motor for a friend and the block looks just like this one. It was a mid 70's 25 hp model. Not sure about the year.
What I'm really interested in iss the dual coil used on the race motor. I need six of those for dual plug heads on my Wilbur Weeks RS motor. Can you get me the P/N?????
Thanks - Roger

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq103/outboardguy/RSonMolinari750-1.jpg

Sam La Banco
02-23-2009, 08:04 AM
I don't think you will find a Pt. No. for that one.

Tim Kurcz
02-23-2009, 09:41 AM
If you look closely, you'll see there are four individual coils..........

Bill Van Steenwyk
02-23-2009, 10:35 AM
Roger:

I have no personal experience with OMC engines or their components, but those coils, especially after Tim pointed out there were actually four of them, look to be just like the coils used on Konig engines with the Phelan self excited CD ignition systems. Possibly they are OMC coils? I remember several of my friends with Konigs were getting these coils from the friendly OMC dealer locally.

RogerH
02-23-2009, 11:38 AM
Tim & Bill,
Yup, I didn't look careful enough, but they are mounted in a nifty manner. OMC does make a dual coil but I'm more worried about firing both coils from one trigger wire. I see that they have 4 trigger wires (one for each coil) for the two cyklinder motor. I'm wondering if they fired the two plugs together or alternated them. That ought to help to get better high speed coil saturation.
Would love to hear from anyone about how to best fire the 12 plugs on the Johnson RS V6. Would like to run the dual plug heads, but also have the original RS heads.
Roger

PS: Has anyone hit on the base motor model?

Sam La Banco
02-23-2009, 01:07 PM
The coils are production OMC coils firing at the same time.
Hint: the motor was seen at a few Region 7 races.

Tomtall
02-23-2009, 07:58 PM
Many of the four stroke outboards and the two stroke snowmobile applications use duel coil wires with one trigger input. The plug will fire at TDC and BDC.

Mark75H
02-23-2009, 08:02 PM
Many of the four stroke outboards and the two stroke snowmobile applications use duel coil wires with one trigger input. The plug will fire at TDC and BDC.

Onan's old stone age CCK series generators (I think starting in the 40's or 50's) did the same thing in 4 stroke mode; both plugs fire both times, but it doesn't matter to the one with both valves open

Roy Hodges
02-23-2009, 08:06 PM
[QUOTE=Tomtall;68652]Many of the four stroke outboards and the two stroke snowmobile applications use duel coil wires with one trigger input. The plug will fire at TDC and BDC.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................
.................................................. .................................................. ..................................
It seems to me that it started with the Honda 125&150 CC 4stroke ( twins ) motorcycles ,back in 1960 . Both cylinders fired only 180 deg. apart ,then skip a whole rev. before firing again . Horsepower rating at 10,500 rpm -plain jane stock, street models ,out of box

Tim Kurcz
02-24-2009, 06:06 AM
For all,

From my former outboard mechanic life, I recognize that wild powerhead can be anything from the 22 cubic inch 20-25HP to the 32 cubic inch 30-35HP - both deflector piston engines. If building a wild mod like this, I'd sure build it to meet class rules (FE) while using the biggest displacement available.

The dual plug head is very cool as it makes for faster light off with a backup in case of a foul or coil failure. BTW: Rapair seems to think two coils can be placed in parallel and that there's enough energy to run both. Looks like a good project for one of my 49.9 triples..... Watch out boys!

What I find most interesting is the decision to use enclosed exhaust. Personal experience with the local marine sheriff finally led me that direction. This is one of the reasons my kids don't like the hydro: They always associate running the hydro with a not-to-happy visit from the DNR and or Sheriff! Just last year I built my first quiet triple with wonderful results - no noise complaints! So, I can test my triple just like the 45SS.

A side benefit is you can't copy what you can't see. Roger Dykehouse used this technique very effectively with his "bounce can" B-Hot Rod deflector exhaust system back in the 1960's. He was shocked at the additional power made by this system (I have to original in my possession). My guess is he stumbled upon what you might call a folded expansion chamber. A quiet system, his engine went on to win at least 3 national championships before a set of sliding chambers overtook him. My guess is this type of technology is/was used in such engines as the Merc25XS, OMC A-15 and 45SS. All are very quiet and make tremendous power.

One thing for sure, I'd love to see the port scheme for that monster!

Tim

Sam La Banco
02-24-2009, 11:21 AM
Tim, your right about the Dykehouse can, it does work like the folded systems found in a modern production motors midsection.

But if you think the Ign. was trick on this motor, the side carb setup was really cool. I wonder if anybody can figure it out.

We tried this motor on a borrowed hydro intended for a yamato 80 motor, what a ride, not even close to enough boat. There is an old picture around maybe I can find it, you will see what I mean.

RogerH
02-24-2009, 11:32 AM
This motor is definitely intriguing! Tim, I read with interest your BTW: that Rapair felt there was plenty of power to fire two coils in parallel. I believe that is how the dual OMC coils were wired when I received the motor. My concern was about associated with the charge current to fire both coils at the same time.
On the 2-cylinder motor I'm wondering what kind of a trigger was used to have a lead available for each coil. If there are two pick-ups (per cylinder) they could be offset slightly to give a longer spark pulse duration across both plugs for better burn. Much like MSD does with multiple sparks (under 3000 rpm), but this wouldn't be RPM limited, only saturation limited if the charge current dropped off as RPM increased.
This motor has a lot of things going for it in one package. I anxious to hear what it really contains.

Tim Kurcz
02-24-2009, 08:01 PM
Hi there Roger,

From what I've been told, the factory OMC primary will fire two coils, so it seems paired pickups would not be needed. This engine has given me several good ideas based on external inspection. The exhaust, ignition, and the very interesting side mount carburetor. Seems to me there could be a reed box behind it, or perhaps it simply opens into the bypass cavity. If that were the case, it wouldn't be opened until larger throttle openings where it might allow better crankcase filling after primary breathing is done by the front 2-bbl.

BTW The V-6 Johnson you have is a very cool race engine! I'd sure do the research to find coils for the twin plugs.

Tim

John Schubert T*A*R*T
02-25-2009, 10:28 AM
Tim, your right about the Dykehouse can, it does work like the folded systems found in a modern production motors midsection.

But if you think the Ign. was trick on this motor, the side carb setup was really cool. I wonder if anybody can figure it out.

We tried this motor on a borrowed hydro intended for a yamato 80 motor, what a ride, not even close to enough boat. There is an old picture around maybe I can find it, you will see what I mean.

Sam,

Is this a continuing project of the 25 that Dave Hammond might have started?

Sam La Banco
02-25-2009, 12:29 PM
John
This is the engine that Dave configured back in the early eighties, as far as I know, it's the same as it was back then, it made 50Hp on dyno. If Dave continued to develop it, I'm sure, with what he knows it would end up more.

Just think what he could have done with the "45" and the "A" motor when we did those projects (if OMC let us.)
He did a "pretty trick" mod 50 motor too.

Tim, there are no reeds behind the side carb, it's piston ported.

Tim Kurcz
02-25-2009, 01:41 PM
Hey Sam,

Of course! Thanks for solving the riddle. My experience with piston ports dates to the 1970's and Bombardier snowmobile engines (hows that for Evinrude destiny). Simple and effective, the only downside I remember was a jumpsuit covered with spitback! With no reeds to get in the way, crankcase fill must have approached 100%. There's no doubt this contributed heavily toward the 50HP. What great work, and to think this was done almost 30 years ago! It would be fun to see it run again.

Tim

calvin
02-25-2009, 03:37 PM
Was this motor used in FE or 25ss? Is that a 2barel from a 50 or a v-4?...What make is the side carb..looks like a carter n?

Sam La Banco
02-25-2009, 05:26 PM
The motor was a skunks works project, no class was in mind when Dave did it.
There were a few gear heads around there, he was one of the best.

The small carb was an OMC part. Not sure about the 2 Barrel.

Sam La Banco
02-25-2009, 09:06 PM
Here is a look at the block and a shot of the engine on the boat.

I was in a 20 boat we borrowed from Wayne Walters, if you can see my hand on the throttle, I don't even have it fully closed, and the boat wants to lift off.

calvin
02-26-2009, 05:35 AM
Wow..looks like a potent mill you got there you guys upnorth come up with all the good stuff..Remember the party a Foote Oberrys..I still have the paper plate you were using to jot down..the secrects of the 20h...Buddy

Tim Kurcz
02-26-2009, 05:44 AM
Excellent stuff Sam!

The carb location and function make perfect sense now. It's neat the architecture worked so nicely. This is a very forward-thinking addition to what is basically a pontoon boat engine. The results are evident in the boat photo: You're lucky you didn't blow over! Thanks for posting your personal pix and divulging its secrets.

Tim

Sam La Banco
02-26-2009, 05:59 AM
I remember the party, the rock fish, and the beer, but don't remember the 20H info on the paper plate, hope I didn't mention the crankcase align bore jobs we did, that was suppose to be top secret.

Dave's motor made quite an impression at a race in Wis. when we just set it on my boat or Paul Pittmans to see what would happen, it was almost a riot.

I will talk him into posting a picture of the 25 motor John was talking about.
maybe the riot picture too.

calvin
02-26-2009, 06:12 AM
Yes the rock fish and BEER..remember talking to John Hervat..great guy ...hows he doin...are ya still racing sst 60..Buddy

Tim Kurcz
02-26-2009, 07:18 AM
OK BRF engine builders, with the help of Samís block photo, I think I've got most of the radical OMC figured out. Can any of you explain how the side carb system works?

Tim

Sam La Banco
02-27-2009, 08:41 AM
Tim, even though, now that you know the side carb is piston ported, it still has a few tricky details you can't see.

Also, we found that on dyno, spacing the intake manifold off the c'case a 1/4" was worth 1 hp on the old 22 cu.in. motor, this is the 33 cu.in. motor. I'm not sure with it's larger reed openings if it was needed. So, I'm not sure why Dave did it to this one, I'll ask, never saw what the reed set up is like, I just know it worked.

If you are interested, there is criteria for setting up a folded pipe in a midsection. I got the information from Dave and will try to find it if you are interested.

bobvdinghyracer
02-27-2009, 07:45 PM
after looking at the ports a while looks like transfers opened to be 2 large ports instead of 4 .... BUT from what little can be seen apears to also be blocked off in middle of each , which makes sense due to added piston port hole below it and must be blocked off below also i assume with expoxy ..which looks like it also feeds the center of the now 2 transfers . then looks like the outer ends are fed from the case itself giving the appearance of a looper setup .... soooooo it either became a looper , or a real radical deflector . would luv to see the pistons and other side of the cylinder .. ie the exhaust side , and YES please show us the " folded ex sys. info " much interested !!
thanks
ps ... so which is it ??
or am i wrong on both counts ???? :):confused:

Tim Kurcz
03-01-2009, 04:36 PM
Hey Sam,

It's interesting this engine liked an increase in CC volume (spaced forward carb/manifold), but whatever works!

Bob does an excellent job in analysis, but let me add on. The piston port opens at a predetermined point as the piston nears TDC. This is because steel or fiber reeds require some threshold amount of suction to open, so they likely shut at some point before the piston nears the end of it's stroke. At that point there's still a little suction, but no means of filling due to the closing/closed reed. By opening the CC near/after reed closure but before TDC, you can get better CC fill and therefore more power. My guess is the bottom of the piston skirt also serves as a timing edge just like the top: Very clever use of design features if this is so.

Again, this was common to piston ported snowmobile engines of yesteryear. Does this make sense?

Tim

BTW: This example shows there are many tricks available for deflector engines to help them approach looper power densities. Very interesting indeed!