View Full Version : Quincy Looper Pics.............

Jeff Lytle
12-05-2004, 11:15 AM
There was a thread started on another board devoted to this famous old engine. TONS of info, pics, and words from drivers who used to race them. Sadly, :( the thread has been deleted. Far from just "Taking up space", the Thread was still active, and recieved new posts, pics and information as recently as a month and a half ago. I posted most of the pics on that thread, and figured they had a new home and were there to stay.
I had a folder of Looper pics I stored on my PC, but deleted them myself figuring they were posted in a place they could stay. Well.........that did not happen, and we have to start again from scratch.
I have a hunch someone like Sam has made copies of all the info and pics that were there.........Hopefully I am right, because it looks to me like this is the new place where they could find a permanent home and be enjoyed by any who wish to drool over these magnificent engines.

I'll be the 1st------Enjoy!!

Jeff Lytle
12-05-2004, 11:18 AM
You don't see many trailers loaded with boats like this any more.

O.F.'s Fleet of hydro's and Runabouts:

Ron Hill
12-05-2004, 12:34 PM
The top back hydro is a Swift C-D-F-X hydro, with original air traps.

The top other hydro is also a Swift, but a Big Dee...but SOMEBODY has modified the boat by adding aluminum air traps... 1" aluminum angle... First time I saw 1" angle was at the Worchester, Massachusetts Natioanls 1957.

I camw home and threw my brother bottom fin away, added traps and a sponson fin. Won the first race after that. But "Chewed Out" bt Referee, Henry Wagner for dangerous driving...

I think with my brother's six stud on a Quickie, no one had ever seen anyone that fast or anyone throw that much spray....hydros threw litle water until full traps and sponson fins...Wagner didn't DQ him but warned him!!!!

12-05-2004, 01:28 PM
The Quincy Looper thread should start with some background.

I'm sure I will revise this more than once.

Back in the late 1940's outboard racing faced a motor crisis much like it does today with no US manufacturer making new motors for racing. The last racers were made in 1941, but not in any significant quanitity for maybe 4 years before that. Just like now, there were a few guys building up motors from parts and making a few special replacement parts.

O.F. Christner raced Mercs converted to burn alcohol and nitromethane and run in "Racing" instead of "Utility" or "Stock Hydro". Little by little he refined the Mercs until they were even with or beating the obsolete OMC products made in the 1930's. Just about the time he got them right the König motors started coming from Germany and British Anzanis from England. By the late 1950's your choices to race competitively in alky were König, Anzani or converted Merc instead of the old OMC's.

Converting a Merc included widening and raising the ports (mostly the exhaust), switching to a Carter N carb modified to use a return line to the tank instead of the float, adding tuned exhaust stacks and increasing the compression by welding in inserts called "pads" into the cylinder head. With these modifications Mercs pretty well kept up with the 1950's European made racing outboards.

Litterally thousands of Mercs were converted at Christner's Quincy Welding shop for customers in all 50 states and countries around the world.

At this same time MZ motorcycles first used a long enclosed tuned exhaust pipe now commonly called an expansion chamber and whipped their competition on the motorcycle road courses of Europe. Carniti Outboards in Italy built a new V-4 racing outboard using the same motor theory and pretty well blew König out of the water in C racing (500cc) in Europe. In Sweden, Crescent made it known that they were designing a similar motor that didn't need the big external tuned pipe.

With the arrival of competition with advanced motor designs, König radically changed his motors from the lumpy "cross flow" or "deflector" piston design to the flat topped "loop charged" design successfully used by his competitors in Europe. When these new loop charge Königs came to the US, the deflector piston Mercs could no longer keep up despite O.F.'s best efforts. Like König before him the only way to compete was to fight fire with fire and somehow make the Merc or some part of it become a loop charged motor.

12-06-2004, 02:29 PM

12-06-2004, 02:35 PM
Picture taken at the O.F. Christner memorial race in Quincy, IL - 2003.

12-06-2004, 02:45 PM
Where the loopers were built.

12-06-2004, 02:47 PM
Picture taken mid to late 1960's.

Frank Volker
12-08-2004, 06:23 PM
Hey guys, the looper photos bring back some great memories.
In the photo of Quincy Welding ( "The Shop" ), my home away from home, was just behind that window to the far right on the second floor. At one time, I was running so many dyno tests on the engines that we put a complete assembly bench in the dyno room.

Just for info: The shop photo is looking North across State Street with 5th street on the right (east). To the left (west) a few blocks was our Prop Test Lab, commonly known as the Mississippi River.

I'll try to get more info on here about some our development from time to time.


Jeff Lytle
12-08-2004, 08:48 PM
Great to have you here!!

Question: How in the heck did you keep the law from coming to the door every time you dyno'd an engine??

12-08-2004, 09:29 PM
Here are early and late type Merc deflector pistons

12-08-2004, 09:31 PM
And here is a Quincy Looper piston.

Christner actually first advertised them as "American Flat tops". From this image you can see why.

12-08-2004, 10:06 PM
If you can excuse my really horrible art work this is the intake flow pattern thru a deflector Merc. The green thing is the cylinder intake (or transfer) port, the red is the exhaust port, the black thing at the top is the spark plug. The blue line represents the intake charge following the intake passage, entering the cylinder, bumping into the deflector ridge on the piston and turning up to sweep thru the cylinder. With the shape of the intake passage (under the letter "A") pointing straight across the piston dome toward the exhaust port the charge would short circuit right out the exhaust if it were not for the deflector ridge on the piston.

Ron Hill
12-08-2004, 10:12 PM
No big deal, but I think that (Picture of a Quincy Piston) is a Levendusky piston for a Quincy.... My reason, I thought Stan Levendusky lightened his pistons above the wrist pin....

My dad didn't tlike the lighter pistons as he like to use a heavy piston to take the heat out of the cyclinder....but loopers were so new to us....we couldn't figure out how the gas knew where to go in those cyclinders as they had so many holes...

12-08-2004, 10:28 PM
The only award this next image will ever win is for complete crudeness.

The important thing to notice is at point B the intake port and passage behind it are shaped to direct the incoming charge of fresh air and fuel up into the cylinder without having to bump into a deflector on the piston.

This allows the piston to be flat.

I don't know who made that piston. If we could get Stan Jr on here, he would be the expert on that. I will try to look him up and invite him.

12-08-2004, 10:40 PM
The advantages of the deflector arrangement are that it is really easy to make at the factory and the resulting motor has lots of mid and low rpm ooompff to push a boat over plane and pull skiers, etc. Very good results for pleasure and work motors.

The disadvantages are that the motor won't have much top end power and the piston will be heavy which is another factor that restricts rpm. The real killer is that the top of the piston has a lot of surface area .... much more than the surface area under the piston. Heat enters the top and can not leave the bottom .... under heavy load the piston accumulates heat until it melts :(

12-08-2004, 10:55 PM
With a bunch of special high speed photography they actually figured out that if the ports and passages are correctly shaped and postioned the incoming gases not only squirt up into the cylinder .... but they can even loop around thru themselves before heading toward the exhaust port.

Something sort of like this:

(OMC had some really nice graphics in their brochures when the 49 ci triple came out; I'll dig them up and post them soon)

12-09-2004, 09:24 AM

borrowed from screamandfly :)

12-09-2004, 12:00 PM
Picture taken at the O.F. Christner memorial race in Quincy, IL - 2003.
This engine shown on thread #6 is a Quincy D Looper once owned by Ron Howard.(not sure of the first name). It now belongs to Schultz Racing Team.

It was completely gone through and reassembled by Homer and Tim Schultz for this O.F. Christner race. Had it mounted on an Sidson cloth deck hydro.
Motor ran great except it was sucking water in the crankcase. One of the Quincy Welding race team members told us that we needed a double seal on the lower end cap.
The engi9ne is now on display at Schultz Marine.

MAN.....!!!!!! Talk about a conversation piece.

Frank Volker
12-09-2004, 03:33 PM
Jeff - The cops never bothered us much about noise during dyno runs unless we tried to push it past 10pm or so. Most of the noise issues were related to on-water testing. We'd have to call the conservation agent and let him know we were going to be running on Quincy Bay. As the engines became louder, due mainly to the bigger megaphones, the bayside residents became less tolerant. Especially when we would "forget" to call the agent. Hence, the big push for closed exhaust systems, water injection, etc.


12-09-2004, 03:50 PM
A 15 ci Looper

12-09-2004, 03:52 PM
4 cylinder C looper images

12-09-2004, 04:09 PM
Looking at the inside, from the crankshaft toward the head

12-09-2004, 04:43 PM
More ports, from the other side (head side looking toward the crank)

12-12-2004, 08:20 AM
It sure would be nice to get a line on those two swift hydro's on the top of the first trailer pic.. Any Ideas or leads anyone with a close up shot of the boats.

Great job on the site Ron and party.


Ron Hill
12-13-2004, 02:38 PM
That "C" Looper on the ORANGE DeSilva is Freddy Hauenstein's. This was one of, if not the first Loop "C" to be shipped from Quincy...Right after this motor was built, they came out with the larger megaphones, which OLD Fred never bought.....

Maybe, Frank could give us some history on the small megaphones compared to the larger???

They blue "CRANK PLATE" is a Lon Stevens piece. and the mid section is a CLASSIC Lon Stevens weld job. Freddy liked those Starnes lower units, he even ran them on his Konig...

The Hauenstein's never liked this DeSilva, until I borrowed it. Seems the first think I do when I borrow a boat is to flatten the bottom. I borrowed this boat wor the 1967 Winternationals and won with it, then took it on to Phoenix to the Playboy Club/Schlitz Beer Race and won there... and I finished second in the free for all...

My "D" Konig beat the Cracker Box, the 280 Hydro, the Super Stock Runabout, the F Hydro, but not the SK...I was close on the start, at leasat that is what George May told eveyone when they wanted to protest... I got $250 for running second...

It was one of those deals, OUTBOARDS against Inboards...five laps...I jumped them at the start, and only one guy caught me...but no one was impressed, little outboard making NO noise...

Gave the boat back to Fred, in the Spring of '68. He wanted to know what I did to the boat to make it run so well... I told him....After that, Freddy listened to me, SOMETIMES!!!!!

12-19-2004, 08:18 PM
I'm taking apart my D looper to start a rebuild and I noticed the exhaust ports are different. Three have dividers and one doesn't. The elbows are different also. What I have is : Two have dividers in the block and none in the elbow, one has a divider in the elbow only and one has dividers in both. Do you think it was set up this way? Am I missing dividers? Thanks.... :confused:

Frank Volker
12-20-2004, 11:35 AM
The very early blocks ('64/'65) had square exhaust ports and no dividers in the elbow or the block. Later, we began putting a divider in the block with some systems also having a short divider in the elbow. After we installed the dyno, we tested several configurations of divider/pipe/no-divider/etc. The decision was made to machine the divider into the block. This resulted in rounding of the inside corners of the exhaust ports and stiffening of the center rib. The old square-port blocks were the result of using an end-cutter to machine the ex ports. This left the larger bore engines ( FB and FD ) with very small center rib cross-sections. This section would sometimes crack. No real performance hit, but it didn't look good. We were also concerned about the exhaust blasting directly onto the adjacent cylinder's piston.

After we installed the dyno ( early '66 or so ), we got the exhaust system down pretty well.


12-20-2004, 04:11 PM
What I have is a mismatch all in the same motor. It is a machined slot in the exhaust port and the elbows. It looks to be a flat plate in the block and sharp in the elbows at the end. To be missing in the motor and have it in the elbow, I assume would serve no purpose. Correct? As long as I have some plates in each do I add them where they are misssing? What type aluminum is used?
Just to be clear on this the 4 exhaust ports on one 1965 D looper go as follows: one port has divider in elbow only
one has dividers in both block and elbow
two have dividers in the block only

12-20-2004, 06:24 PM
I was going to post some photos on the "other site" that dumped the Looper forum. I hope to show some of the internal photos for anyone that has never seen the inside of a looper. I myself have never rebuilt one so I will be asking a lot of questions. ( Just to warn you guys ) I just bought a small sand blast cabinet to clean up all the silver paint sprayed on the motor. I'm using glass bead and it seems to work well without any apparent damage. I will stay away from any gasket surfaces. 1st question: What is a good way to de-gum the old set up caster oil?

12-20-2004, 08:21 PM
I've been asking and trying stuff to degum stuck castor resin for 2 years with no satisfactory results. Maybe someone here will have a good suggestion. I tried all kinds of penetrating oils and solvents and most did absolutely nothing. So far I have had the best (but not very good) results with acetone, but be careful, acetone reacts with copper. Anything with copper in its alloy will turn green.

We need to find out what the "active solvents" would be for castor resin. So far the most likely candidate I've found is heat. The research I've done basically says most castor resins go soft below 70º C ..... gotta get out my conversion chart, but at least we know it is less than 212ºF (100ºC). For destroying surface castor resin it looks like strong UV light may be the best candidate.

Jeff Lytle
12-21-2004, 05:25 AM
We used to use "Fantastic" to cut old castor gum. Soaking old stubborn parts for an hour or 2 really did the trick.

After running, I used to take a juice can and a paint brush and go over the the whole engine with gasoline. It kept them spotless and shiny clean.

Frank Volker
12-21-2004, 06:30 AM
Steve - Here are a couple of options for the exhaust dividers:

Option 1
(1) Remove dividers from the elbows.
(2) Remove sharp edges from machined groove (in elbows) with a small rotary file.
(3) Cut the gasket to fit the remaining empty groove to remove the small flaps that would be in the flow path.
(4) Put dividers in exhaust hole in block (6061 T6 aluminum should work).

Option 2
Leave the dividers out of everything unless you're going to be running more than 5 or so races per season. If you elect to do this, very carefully remove the sharp corners from the divider grooves in the block. No heavy grinding, just a small radius. Also, do step (3) above to match gasket to hole.

I tend to favor Option 2. I never did a back-to-back dyno run, but my guess is that the dividers may actually drop top-end hp just a little. Also, once the dividers are removed from the pipes, the divider in the block could conceivably "creep" out of the block and into the remaining groove in the pipe. Hope this helps.


Seagull 170
12-22-2004, 05:06 PM
What's the purpose of the Exhaust divider?
It looks to me that it's just to stop the piston ring/rings catching on the port.
I would think the block dividers are operating in very harsh conditions, at 600 degrees C low silica aluminium would expand quite a lot.
Sorry if this is a dam fool question.

Frank Volker
12-23-2004, 10:26 AM

Actually, it's a good question.

The main purpose of the divider was to shield the adjacent piston from the direct exhaust blast. If you look at the pix of the D block that switzerbullet posted ( http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=590 ), you see that the upper edge of the divider is about 1/8 in. from the water jacket and the bottom edge is less than 1/4 in. from a fuel/air passage, with the back edge against the center rib. Given the good thermal conductivity, I doubt if the divider even reached the annealing temp. I'm not sure of the exact composition of the cast alum. block, but I don't think the differences in cte's was significant at the running temps. My concern with the divider was always one of flow restriction and the wave pattern that it might set up. Plus, it required additional machining and hand fitting operations.


Seagull 170
12-23-2004, 06:33 PM
Siamesed exhaust ports, now I understand. I don't think these beasts ever made it to the uk, well not on a permanant basis. So each cylinder's exhaust port exits both sides of the block & to make them one sided would force the block to increase in length. Clever them Americans. Was the divider full length of the pipe? without that the pulse would be weaker?

Ron Hill
12-23-2004, 11:03 PM
Harry's B Quincy Looper never seemed much more powerful than our A... We even put Levendusky pistions in her...which we didn't see any change...Didn't seem to have the high RPM's like the A

What was the difference on the dyno between the A and the B...? An did you or do you have any opinion of the two pistons...?

Thanks for your posts.... enjoy them like crazy!!!!

Frank Volker
12-24-2004, 02:25 PM

First off, thanks to you and Ted for building a nice forum here.

Were the FA/FB engines from about the same time frame? I think the FA's of late '66/early '67 were pulling almost as much hp as the earlier FB's. The early loop engines had tons of lo-end torque, but hp rolled off rapidly. For our shop, it meant running 16:21 gears, swinging big wheels with big cups and chewing up lower units on a regular basis. In the AD (After Dyno) years, the peak hp began moving from 8400-8500 into the 92-9500 range. This made finding a decent 1:1 wheel much easier. I'm relying on a bad memory here, but I think in '72 the FA's pulled about 55hp and the FB's about 66hp on straight methanol.

We ran our own pistons, mainly because we were always looking at ring shape, ring pin location, dome configuration, clearance, and ring/cylinder fit. There may have been blanks from different sources, but the machining was usually done at QW.


Frank Volker
12-24-2004, 02:35 PM

The divider in the exhaust elbow was about 1 in. long or so, as I recall. It's primary purpose in life was to provide a better transition to the pipe diameter than would be possible by chopping off the divider at the cylinder block surface.


12-27-2004, 04:09 PM
Just a few more photos as the motor is taken apart. If anyone has one extra Gen 2 exhaust bell please let me know. Thanks...Steve

Ron Hill
12-27-2004, 10:22 PM
Harry Bartolomei ran the Konig foot on the B Looper with with 12:16 gears, I want to say...but not sure...We finally got the thing (B) running as fast as the A Hydro by jacking it up, like crazy, and running the F Runabout wheel....

But in B Runabout Harry had like a 12 foot DeSilva with a 22" bottom...In A runabout...(At DePue)....I'm talking, I ran Max McPeek AU DeSilva, 10 foot long if you stepped on it, and a 29 or 30 inch bottom...

Never really like the LOOP B...Loved to run the A...she'd wind her lid off....I'd cut the Quickie so much we were afraid to take the cone off...and hardly had a skeg....but she's corner good, with my big butt in it...crack the throttle, set her, and get back on the coals...

The B never got going and would accererate about the same...

Now, after all these years, Frank tells us why!!!!

Thanks, again, Frank, for posting...

12-30-2004, 08:16 PM
Rich Ollhoff in Wisconsin has a cast of the Gen 3 bell and the elbow with the water injection hump. The elbow can be drilled and ported to match your power head. I'm posting a photo of both. He also has a mold for the Gen 1 bell but has not cast any. If your missing a part these look really good and it is from an origional mold! You can see I started to clean up a bell to be polished.

Jeff Lytle
12-30-2004, 09:04 PM

At the rate you're going. she'll be singin' again by the Spring!!

You MUST (p/please?) send us either a mpeg or a sound file to post here of the maiden run.

12-30-2004, 09:14 PM
Steve, what is the ID and OD of the gen 3 bell?

Gene East
12-31-2004, 07:41 AM
I just learned of this web-site today. Spend most of my time hanging around the SWAMPPIT. Spent many hours with Frank "Down by the riverside"!

12-31-2004, 07:58 AM
The I.D. looks to be the same as the photo sizes in the Quincy Exhaust thread. The O.D. is about 1 7/8 at the small end and 6 1/16 at the bell. This is an exact fit in my origional elbows. I did see the Gen 1 pattern. Its an old wood two piece pattern.

John Schubert T*A*R*T
01-05-2005, 08:00 AM

This is a little late as I didn't see your earlier post about alunimum air traps at the 1957 Stock Nationals. My brother & I had them on our "A" & "B" Sid-Craft hydro's, as well as Charlie Piper on his Sid & Bob Mehnert, who made them for us, had them on his Sid "DSH". I think Bob was 4th. I had won the divisionals which were run in conjunction with the nationals as we were postponed from the Buffalo divisionals due to rough water. I won with my 20H with just about the rest of the field including Piper & Bob Tod with Hot Rods. If you remeber the "BSH" finals, run on Monday, there were many gun jumpers, including myself, with Chris Erestom with a 20H & Charleton hydro winning. We had to leave right after the race, get home to NJ & on Wenesday reported to the US Merchant Marine Academy for 4 years.

Ron Hill
01-06-2005, 10:10 AM
Haven't heard that name in years..


Truth is we left Monday morning...As you recall it rained and rained and rained...

My dad flew home. I went with Dave Hart's family and he had come to run the Mennen Marathon....and that was Friday... Dave was ready to get going...

So, I only saw the first turn of one heat, from the bridge as we were leaving...We stopped to watch, in the rain...I saw an accident in C or D hydro.....I always thought I saw the Chet McClung accident....It was only after we got home that I learned someone had been killed... Rules changed to 12 boats per heat the next year....but I think getting rid of sponson fins would have made more sense...

I did leave Worchester with a good feeling...I had met the Stippich's...even though Keith wet me down in AU...seems a friendship was forming. I had spent some time with Jerry Waldman and Dick O'Dea...

01-08-2005, 06:19 PM
Joe Michellini's 6 cyl looper:

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
03-18-2005, 10:38 PM
Thanks for posting all the nice historical pictures to up to date on the Quincy Loopers. Some of you know I am a Quincy Flathead enthusiast collector and since each is rebuilt I have driven each one once to make my hair stand on edge before they go into my rec room display. I could never afford those engines when I ran stock hydros and now here I am collecting them worn out to be rebuilt and live again.

I am having some difficulty picturing what was Ray Nydahl's reversed Looper 4 cylinder with his custom crankcase and chambers. His son Pete gave me a call to coach me through what he could remember and I have some pictures of it when Anderson had one but I have not good multy angle closeups to do it all exactly right. Can anyone out there help me with some pictures of the exact way Ray Nydahl had his? Would be greatly appricated as my imagination has its limits and could use that helping hand in the restoration. Email me - John Taylor at anzani@mts.net

03-20-2005, 04:19 PM
Who is running what plugs on their loopers? I'm looking for info on C, D, and F loopers. What is a good starting point. What is the next hotter or colder plug? Anyone with a good cross reference? The plug on my D looper was an AC M40FFG. What else would work? What does this cross to? Thanks...Steve

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
03-22-2005, 09:27 PM
When I got my Quincy Flathead 4 bangers that same spark plug yuou have in your D Looper is one and I have another of the AC type above and below that too.

What were in the engines to seal the cylinders when I got them were some Champion L83R and L84R. As Champion sparkplugs go that is one higher against the other. The fellow I got the engines from that his dad used to run told me that one or the other of those two was "patchy running" and since then I have been told one was easier to run magnetos where there was a gasoline component in the ALky mix to make it start and run easier on a magneto. TO cap all that off there wasn't a magneto for any of them, they were all Mercury CD battery breakerless high voltage ignitions.

I understand there is also an Autolite spark plug for them too in differing heat ranges and I have some but there are no notes and no one to guide me on those though I run specific Autolite plugs as well as Champions in A and B Alky Anzanis and I am told Quincy loopers like yours and mine did too, so there must be something somewhere to help.

A lot of information I have since sorted out a bit for myself but the Champion L84Rs sparkplugs run best for me with CD ignition, Alky with Union Carbide - Jack Rabbit 2 stroke pure synthetic racing oil at a 20 to 1 Alky / Lube mix. UCJC is not a caster oil and I have seen nothing like it that mixes equally well with gasoline, gasohol, Alky or Alky Nitro mixes for fuels.

Jeff Lytle
03-22-2005, 09:49 PM
Hi John:

I had some pics of what I called your "Garage of Dreams" but lost them in a hard drive crash I had awhile ago.
Post some pics of your wares, I'm sure all would love to see your fine handywork.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
03-24-2005, 08:38 PM
Good idea to post some Quincy / Merc deflector and Quincy Flathead Looper stuff. Some is with a digital camera, some is not but scanned in so the quality and color may not be toogood. Love doing the digital stuff now.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
03-24-2005, 08:43 PM
Some more pictures assortments. Will be doing more digital stuff this spring.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
03-24-2005, 08:51 PM
Some D Flathead pictures. This was the only complete Quincy Flathead 4 Looper I had at the time with all Quincy Block and Crankcase castings. The rest were Merc mark 55-58 fronts other than a Ray Nydahl crankcased version I have his son Pete to thank on figuring out how it was equipped and set up.

Ron Hill
03-24-2005, 09:46 PM
Hate to bitch...but, my screen is small and I have a
hard time drooling over your small pictures...

When he Mercs were "Third" ported...Say on a "D" cross flow. What gain was seen and where was the gain?

Does crankcase pressure not really matter in a LOOPER???

Thanks for sposting you pictures..I LOVE pictures...just need to see them all!!!

That "ORANGE" looking four cyclinder with the "COW BELLS".....What the story there???

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
03-25-2005, 10:54 AM
That engine I got from a fellow in 1993 whose father (Calaquin) and son team use to run stock and alky outboard with a club around Fort Dodge, Iowa. Its a Quincy padded block Merc with later model all alumnum Quincy pipes that had a real custom built up "rotary valve crankshaft" in it. I am sure the custom work on the crankshaft with its rotary valve systems in place of where the reed blocks used to see action was probably worth as much as the engine was by itself. The crank weighed with all assembles attached surrounding about 35% more than a standar Merc 500 crankshaft. When I got it, it still had a burnt Turner piston in it and with thanks Dudley Malone found me an exact match to replace it and overhaul the engine. We dang near died starting it, no one knew except me how to start it with the rediculous compression. It went like gangbusters but that crankshaft just would not slow down. It was only good for long courses with real wide turns to keep it wide open as possible. It was very peaky in terms of its powerband I found.

It is now owned by another collector and that is another story.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
03-27-2005, 11:28 PM
Guess which years these Quincy powered raceboats fit into what years.

*(1 pic) G71 (Minnesota) Was the first time I ever seen a Quincy Flathead 6 banger hung on a tunnel boat for a sit down ride. After igniton problems were sorted out she went to qualify herself as a probationary entry. What the outcome was I don't know but you might want to call it the precerser to the hydrocat which became very popular in Alky Pro Classes in Europe in the past decade.

*(2 pics) Does anyone remember this racer standing beside his Chaparral C Alky hydro powered by a Quincy Flathead Looper C - 4 cylinder he and is son used to campaign in the Wisconsin area?

Master Oil Racing Team
03-28-2005, 07:55 AM
The G-71 I remember is Wayne Walgrave from LaVerne, Minnesota. A real fine and fierce competitor. Is that his dad? Been too long.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
03-28-2005, 09:28 AM
That picture of Walgrave driving his 6 cylinder Quincy Flathead powered Chaparral is the F Chaparral hydro I have sitting here in storage all restored has just made my day!! I have a small picture of my restored F Chaparral hydro on this website. I do not have the spoiler from the back he does but now I can make one up just from the picture! For Wayne and family it must be kind of cool that there are two Chaparral raceboats up north here within 120 miles of each other and restored. Unfortunately I can only show mine with a 6 Quinchy piped Mark 75 FE Mod engine or one of the 44 or 46 Inch Quincy Flathead F class 4 bangers. The otehr fellow will be putting his D sized Chaparral on display at local boat shows and at the Historical Class Wood Boat Show on Lake of the Woods this coming summer and already I can see he wants something more to show her engine wise than a Merc 44 cube Quicksilver mouted rat motor. If there is some way of contacting the Walgrave family, we could do some file transfers of our pictures with computers so they can complete the Chaparral scrapbook of pictures todate this 2005. Anyone have any contact information to share with us??? Email me, John Taylor at anzani@mts.net or call evenings by telephone at (204) 667-3815. :p

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
03-28-2005, 09:39 AM
I have an old picture of a G-711 hydro and I met the former driver again meaning I met him when I was a young teenager at a powerboat race before at a APBA Nationals Stock / Modified outboard race at Wakefield, Mich in the early 1990s. We got to talking about the older race days and he always carried a picture of his G-711 cabover hydro in his wallet sleve in a lamination. Does anyone know or remember who that G-711 Class F hydro driver was?

04-01-2005, 09:26 PM
John do you now the older gent in the yellow jumpsuit? His last name is Homeberg (sp) and that C looper has some histery. My dad bought it from Mike Franck.We then raced it for about ten years, Then it was sold to Homeberg. He only raced it about 3 times before he had a Bad crash at Serpent lake in Crosby MN. My dad spent some time that day ropin that looper dry. The boat was trashed. See Before and after pics. G77 was when it was my dads. G70 was when it was Homeberg's. That boat and motor were made for each other.

04-01-2005, 09:29 PM
Boy I need to learn to resize them scaned pictures. :eek:

Jeff Lytle
04-01-2005, 09:45 PM
You're doin' just fine !! :D

04-01-2005, 10:16 PM
Got the pic's fixed. :D

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
04-02-2005, 12:04 AM
That picture I took of Homberg, his Quincy Flathead C and Chaparral hydro was also taken on his birthday as I recall. Nice Genteman and Nice Pipes! :)

04-02-2005, 08:44 AM
John, That looper and my uncle Jim leyde could beat most D's and some F's that were in the midwest. Homberg was a good racer and a realy nice guy. That looper was just to much for him to handle. I never seen him realy go all out with it.

Do you now if he is still alive? I have not seen him since he retiard.

Jeff Lytle
04-08-2005, 04:11 PM
Here is 1 on John Taylor's Loopers.

He sent me a coupla' pics a while back of all his engines in his garage / shop. I posted on HR and called it "Garage of Dreams"

How bout' some more John????

Jeff Lytle
04-08-2005, 04:17 PM
Pretty serious stuff........Can you imagine the noise??

I must say though........I sure hate seeing them on engine stands at shows. They should be RUN !!

Jeff Lytle
04-08-2005, 04:18 PM
Mr. O. F. Christner

04-21-2005, 04:14 PM
Somebody asked about Autolite plugs. Look for AE403 and AE203 (the coldest).

04-21-2005, 04:19 PM
Mr. Frank Volker, are you still following this thread? I have been chasing you around the Internet, about two steps behind! I have some questions (partly answered here), if you would be so kind as to consider them, on the Technical Discussion forum.

Jeff Lytle
04-21-2005, 05:59 PM
Frank last visited this thread on the 16th of April. I suggest you email him directly or we can get in touch with him if you cannot.

Frank Volker
04-25-2005, 04:38 PM
Frank last visited this thread on the 16th of April. I suggest you email him directly or we can get in touch with him if you cannot.

I mod'd my post at http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195 to include all of the pipe drawings since we can now do multiple inline attachments. I eliminated the external URL ref to my web site for faster loading. If you want, you can delete your two posts below mine. Thanks again for adding those. It helped a lot.

It would be nice if the default number of displayed topic titles could be raised in the more technical sections or whatever is required to keep them in the dispayed list.


04-25-2005, 05:16 PM
It would be nice if the default number of displayed topic titles could be raised in the more technical sections or whatever is required to keep them in the dispayed list.

Your wish is my command. It is done.

(Let me know if I missed any)


Jeff Lytle
04-25-2005, 05:34 PM
If you want, you can delete your two posts below mine. Frank

Done.......Looks much nicer now.

Thanks Frank !!

Jeff Lytle
05-04-2005, 04:57 PM
Kinda' hate seeing them on stands at a show like this, but.............

Jeff Lytle
05-04-2005, 05:12 PM
These is the C Block that was on EBay last week. Listed as "New" by "Quincy Marine" ??
Not sure if they made reserve, think it was $1000.00.

Mike Schmidt
05-05-2005, 04:27 PM
Check out the two cylinder looper on the 4 cylinder down housing (white). Any one out there remember that motor?

Michael D-1

fred tyson
05-05-2005, 06:04 PM
Mike, remember seeing that same set up on someone as well as Christners stuff once, we ran a Levendusky tower housing with a Konig foot on both the 250 and 350 loopers we had at one time, both were bad about running backwards when you started them from time to time, that was untill dad dropped the timing back to about 95 degrees btc, still ran same speed but just didnot run over the help in the water.

Composite Specialties
05-06-2005, 11:54 AM
I remember seeing that white tower housing at Depue in the late sixty's and early seventies on all of Gerry Waldmans boats. Spooker and Spooker II

David Weaver
05-06-2005, 03:51 PM
Mike, remember seeing that same set up on someone as well as Christners stuff once, we ran a Levendusky tower housing with a Konig foot on both the 250 and 350 loopers we had at one time, both were bad about running backwards when you started them from time to time, that was untill dad dropped the timing back to about 95 degrees btc, still ran same speed but just didnot run over the help in the water.


Launched your brother at Elizabeth City one day along with your dad. Had to haul *** up the shore to get out of the way of the boat going the wrong direction!!!!! I never got near another looper!

05-08-2005, 04:32 PM
Isnt that two cyl. looper the Waldman looper you had sitting in your office at the time I stopped by when Iwas out east picking up my 125 hydro? And I believe you sold it to buy a new Rossi. A True Racer and you have your priorities rite! As Ron said, who would want to lay down in a hydro at 85-90 miles per. No One. It's not fast enough anymore!
See ya in the first turn.

Bruce Summers
Boat Racing: A disease for which there is no cure.

05-08-2005, 05:20 PM
Just received my D Looper from FEDEX smashed. Origional as raced and not frozen up. I'm really mad as it was dropped then put in another box and shipped as if nothing happened. Nothing on it to say it should be inspected that they damaged it.. FEDEX boxed it so they are going to have to pay the damage. Anyone out there that can write up a repair bill? The cost should be for replacement of parts to as new condition, not just welded up. All machine work and installation. I would like them to pay about $800 to $900. The magnito is smashed, the front crankcase broken and the early exhaust elbow broke in half. I'm not sure about carb damage yet. Thanks...Steve

fred tyson
05-09-2005, 12:26 PM
good luck on getting them to pay anymore than salvage prices, being in the freight business I know how this works, if shipper did not put value on engine or claim that contents were anything other than used engine, well you have had it, they will pay claim for cost per salvage price only, doubt you will get any compensation for repairs as they will want what they paid for which is the engine, look at bill of lading really close to see how enhine was described, especially since they reboxed and tried to hide damages.

05-09-2005, 01:22 PM
I have a $1000 in insurance on it. They did the origional packing. Then after it was damaged, they took the damaged box and put it into another so I have that also! I took digital pictures of it as soon as I saw the inner box ripped before it was removed, so I hope I'm covered. I wont give up the motor and hope to make them pay for parts to put it into the condition as shipped. I know the early elbow will be hard to find.

Ron Hill
05-09-2005, 08:11 PM
We sent a gearcase to Wisconsin in a Federal Express box. They broke the skeg. They returned it, we shipped another in their box and the broke that one too..Guy decided to repair it on the second time...We have yet to settle with the insurance claim...

Got a motor from Florida, Roadway Express. Cod for the shipping, the power trim pump was missing. I told them at the time, called when I got home...6 weeks later they call want want me to pay the freight or they ding my credit....

I said, "TRY IT." Pay my claim, and subtract the freight, I said. Freight was $390, power trim pump is $489. We'll see. Trim pumps can be replaced, Waldman's Looper can't.

I shipped a V-6 Merc Cowling and insurance it for $100. Driver remembered putting it in the truck, but never taking it out. UPS remebursed me The full value of the cowling, even though it was insured for $100.00

I ship UPS, but then I was a Ned Jarrett fan before Dale was racing!!!!!

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
05-13-2005, 07:02 AM
It is too bad about all the damage. I too have been victim on what is really my own stupidity when I assumed that UPS would take care of the shipment with what I thought was good packaging. It wasn't. I went to a local Mercury dealer to really find out how and it really means breaking it down to the largest components being separated and "entombing" the engine in plastic wrap, bubble wrap, popcorn and then expanding foam in a large box with sytrofoam walls and tons of tape to where the contents are in the box like suspended animation! and you can almost bounce the box off the grond like a basketball! AND I mean just that. Since then there has not been a single freight damage problem. I tell you don't scrimp on the packaging no different than on the shipping. The average cost to package and ship a Merc 4 cylinder racing engine is about $50.00 in packaging and about $150.00 to ship anywhere in North Amerca. What you seen in how that Quincy was shipped would not happen,

That Quincy front is from a Merc 500 44 cube engine. The broken elbo Dick Olthoff (who makes the Looper 6) can replace that or have it welded and do a good refinishing job. Sure it looks all awful but it can be repaired easily and without great cost.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
05-20-2005, 08:37 AM
I can only assume that the Chaparral flat deck wedge hydros made by Wayne Walgrave were all Quincy powered Alkys. In this 1980 or 1981 picture at Detroit Lakes, Minnesota there were 2 more stacked up still waiting on the trailer to use soon enough. At this race there were Modifieds, Alkys and Inboards all on deck that day though she was a little rough.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
06-04-2005, 01:51 PM
In 1997, after we used them in a parade it was the only time I ever tried a Quincy C Flathead Looper on a B & H hydro. That was not a good idea either! Never tried that again! :)

06-05-2005, 04:47 PM
I thought I had already posted these, but I can't find them. These images are copyright protected and may not be used in any books, magazines, CDs or other web sites without advance written permission. Individuals may download and save them on their computers and make print outs for your own personal use, but not for sale to other parties.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
06-06-2005, 09:00 AM
David, The moment it was tried there was no sane way to continue to even begin to feel it out, that feeling was immediate and scary and it came back in and out of the water just as fast as it went in. Just an insane idea like putting a early Merc 44 Modified on that Swift Big D back in 1971 and having a flying wreck of it under a minute later, this was no different in potential cause and effect. Your dead right in assessing that one. :)

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
06-30-2005, 08:17 PM
Currently being scanned, these materials will become available in the next couple of days. :)

06-30-2005, 08:31 PM
John, please make them a little bigger than the Harrison literature .... maybe 1200 X 1200 pixels and ~150 dpi. If ya accidentally make them too big I'll resize them. ;)

Don Muncie
07-21-2005, 10:23 PM
Hey Mr. Hill and Mr. March; Just saw the thread with the loopers and I think I'm gonna like this site! I'm the proud owner of seven of these beasts and am in the process of creating an eighth, a sixty c.i. since I can't aford one I'll make one. The A, B, C, D, 44F all run. Waldman's 44F will run soon. My ZRB is currently on life support but will probably come to life some time next year.

As soon as I can get me a digital camera, I'll get ya'all some pic's

Thanks for allowin me to be a part of an awesome board! I'll try not to be too big a pain in the rear.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
07-22-2005, 06:52 AM
As soon as I can get me a digital camera, I'll get ya'all some pic's

Thanks for allowin me to be a part of an awesome board!

I am still using my Kodak digital early 2 megapixel that does 4 sizes of file pictures making ideal Jpegs for sites like this plus it flashes and does a whole 2X telephoto, plus there are free and otherwise programs to change file sizes. My camera with all its goodies, case, rechargable nicads, 32 meg added card memory and recharger cost under $200 bucks, so if you for some reason sit on it, some sniffles but not major.

Welcome bro of the Quincy Flathead! In the ascence of a digi-camera a disposable camera with developed film will do if you can scan the picture to post?

07-22-2005, 12:22 PM
Last Desilva sold at Quincy with c motor , 1979.
Display by Art Neadneck.

Master Oil Racing Team
07-22-2005, 06:06 PM
Thanks for the history. What does the paper taped on the deck say? Do you know? Looking forward to more pictures.

07-22-2005, 08:00 PM
Wayne , only read the large print about 1979 , i was looking for Battery for cam didn't find any.
I was helping with weighing boats, was a busy day.
Art Neadneck has a nice little display of Quincy/merc/history, i think he was on here before.
Have some pics from pit/inspection area will work on.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
08-01-2005, 08:58 AM
There were no carbs or ignition for this Flathead D as it came out of its many boxes to be pieced together. Not having enough parts to build some more Carter Model Ns, I resorted to the using of Merc carbs - WMKs - from larger Merc engines that Elmer Grade, Palm Beach, Florida came up and gave me the basis what to make them with as alternative Alky carbs for big inch Konigs as well as for big Quincy flatheads. He also built a version with remote DelOrto fuel bowls where things got too tight to have or retain the original bowl on the carbs. This engine features the fuel bowls as cast with these Tillotson like carbs. Enjoy these pictures, the next few days will see the whole engine ready for use, show or go. :)

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
08-01-2005, 09:01 AM
Batch 2 Of Quincy Flathead Coming Together.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
08-01-2005, 10:17 PM
In the horrible heat we have been suffering from North America wide, this D Quincy Flathead was finally finished in my garage wrokshop. She is meant (by me for show or a little go) to run on 20% gasoline to go with the rest of the methanol and lubricant to run decently with the power available from a Merc P4D Red Cap magneto. Having finished the powerhead and this city being summer deserted and with the horrible heat and with everyone pretty much gone to cottage country I just had to try a fireup, just to hear it erupt! She was put on a tower, gearcase, testwheel and stuck in a water tank and fired, in the garage with ear protection on! Whaaaap! She lives! Its alive! Took her off the tower and back on the bench to see what was going wrong anywhere? Nothing! I took lots of pictures, before on the bench and after back on the bench, so enjoy. There was too much smoke to take pictures othewise and I was worried a neighbor that might be at home might come and club me out, so things went swiftly, very swiftly, with me looken as if nothing had happened! :)

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
08-01-2005, 10:21 PM
The second batch of more Quincy Flathead D Picts.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
08-01-2005, 10:24 PM
Third batch of Quincy D Looper picts, post fireup.

David Weaver
08-02-2005, 06:15 AM

How about bringing it to Hammond, IN in 2 weeks for test run?


John (Taylor) Gabrowski
08-02-2005, 07:24 AM
I would love to bring her to a spectator event for some show and go but legal issues and challenges I am bringing froward challenging government/medical malfeascance, government medical frauds and their insurance frauds schemes that affected us require we stay put here to prepare and deal with them in meetings and hearings into later September and maybe onward too. Right now things are about as clear as mud about them but not to us and they don't like that much. :)

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
08-02-2005, 03:52 PM
With the assistance of a couple of racers with some great shots, this Quincy Class "F" Alky 44 inch Flathead Looper (setup for runabout with the Konig gearcase) is slowly heading back to what it looked like as it was pictured back in 1966 at Christener's Quincy Welding facility. With any luck, it could be completely restored that 1966 look by the end of this August.

The following pictures show it slowly changing from a modernized one back to that 1966 look. There are pictures on the wall in front of it to comemorate it and the Quincy drivers that drove her, Jim Schoch and Jerry Simison (please excuse errors on spellings should they have occurred).

Don Muncie
08-05-2005, 04:18 PM
Hey John; I see what yur talkin about! I think I understand whay ya did to make them big carbs work, I gonna play with some on a flow bench here next week I hope and see if I can make them work for me. You gave me an idea for a 44 FE and am dyin of curiousity if by flowin more fuel through them big carbs if the engine can take it and really produce more power! (I'm glad I don't drink, thinkin of all the different way to build horsepower can just about do it to ya!)

Thanks John for these awesome pic's!

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
08-05-2005, 09:47 PM
Ya, they are a pretty cool carb for Alky according to Elmer for anything be it Quincy or Konig over 40 cubes to 60 cubes and up on 2 or 3 carbs but for ALky. For APBA Forumla E you should give the Merc/Tillotson KCs a go. The KC1s which were on the Merc 650 - 60 to 66 cube 4 cylinder engines. The first time I noticed the KC2s, they were on a later model Merc 500 Anniversary Special 50 HP at the prop 4 cylinder 44. I convert these to a screw in/out adjustable high speed needle jet system using Tillotson HR/HD early snow/mo needles and spring washer O ring loaded packing glands. Its awkward to adjust these needles being the jet facing is 40% off to the right making it tight between magneto housing and the carb on the top only in particular but being partient and careful will do the trick anyway. The Tillotson KC1s and KC2s (real big venturis) to KC15s series carbs also make for good Alky converstions too for short barrell wide throat reed block applications but for piston port stuff overall barrel and adapter lengths and longish velocity stacks would probably work their ways into a good running butterful carb.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
08-06-2005, 06:34 PM
This tripple blade tulip eared prop is the latest effort for the Quincy Flathead Looper 44 cube engines here. In spite of its small surface areas this wheel commands the power to make it work and is a real work of technology when its does get the power it needs. There is no comparrison to any older 2 blade Alky hydro props and this tripple blade in any way. It is like night and day in the difference speed with terrific pull all around turns. I tried using this prop on three different FEs, just to see what would happen. This prop just kills their revs and sucks up so much power from them and it could not deliver any performance anything one could talk about when its used on the Quincy Flatheads (40-44-46 cu.in.) Those Merc FE engines could do no justice to what the Quincy Flathead 44 cube 4 could do and I would so much like to get to run it on the Quincy Flathead 46 cubic inch engine so that cylinder replacement on it is becoming a priority sometimes in the near future.

John (Taylor) Gabrowski
11-03-2005, 08:45 PM
I am plenty concened about the 46 cube Flathead cylinder situation I have on my hands. A bad piston ring screwed up and chewed some groves around 2 transfer ports enough to cause leakage of exhaust gases back to the crankcase. Tried an industrial cold chroming process to repair the spots but they fairly quickly failed again. Looked at replacing that cast iron sleve but this was a FD or D Quincy Flathead that was rebored liner and block aluminum to get to a liner to make it a 46 cubic inch "F" block but the liners are right on top of and even touch into the re-threading inserts for the head bolts. There is no telling yet if it was line bored, re-linered again after it was made into an "F" and with what accurracy? We have an outfit here that coats cylinder liners with performance finishes for high performance and racing snowmo and cycles etc. related but they want me to leave this block behind for them to do the job. Problem is that the block is not replaceable anywhere and I have had 2 bad situations where parts were supposedly lost/missplaced before with others and but later you find out they were broken and tossed out with an excuse! That is the last thing I want to do is let that block out of my sight!

Does anyone out there have a boreable block class C or larger that can be punched out and re-linered and how much cash are we lookimg at? Any 4 cylinder Quincy Flathead given there is enough metal left can be rebored and re-linered, maybe even nikasealed instead. It seems a shame to be in this situation where there is so much and is hung up and safest to be just be made into a non-runable saw horse queen! Maybe I am the one being unrealistic?? :)