How Fast Will A Quincy 6 Go ?

[David Mason]

I only recently found and read with great interest and respect the thread titled "How Fast Will AQuincy Flathead 6 go"

Has anyone found the answer yet ? I have been accused of having a small brain before....... ;)

At any rate having seen the pics of J Dub's six on the back of that capsule boat made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I can't wait to hear about it once they get the project into full swing. To see it run in competition would simply be over the top.

Next, is there a location large enough to find out how fast that six will go on a kneeler ?

I am in no means with this thread saying I have the equipment to try it. I never have had the pleasure of feeling the rush of a true Quincy six. Someday I hope to con someone for a ride in a piece of history.

Dave

[J-Dub]

As soon as I get a couple other projects completed, I will get back to the Looper project. I just need gotta get up to dads and trade some rods with him so I have all 6 rods of the same weight. Pistons are coated, balanced and ready. The crank is balanced, and all new bearings are ready to go.

Some assembly required....

J-Dub

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

J Dub:

I for one, as well as many others, think the sound of a Flathead SIX is one of the most wonderful "wails" that ever was, and I, and I am sure there are many others in the BRF community, are waiting anxiously for you to get the engine completed so you can make this attempt at either a new Kilo record or at least determining just how fast with modern boat/prop technology a Looper SIX can go.

I would like to make the following offer if you are willing to accept or it would be helpful or needed in making this project come to pass. I will donate 50.00 to the financial benefit of this effort and would encourage everyone else interested in the project to do the same, to a larger or lesser amount, whatever the individual feels they can do. I am sure you would not have taken it on without confidence in your financial capabilities to bring it off, but I would like to help, as I am sure many others would. All I need is an adress to send my donation to. If for whatever reason the attempt would not come off the funds could be returned if the donor wished. That could be between you and the donor. In my case the donation would have no strings attached, as long as it was used for the attempt with the Looper SIX.

There is one kicker though, I would request that everyone who makes a donation to this effort receive a video of some type showng the attempt, successful or not, if for no other reason to hear that sweet music again, that "wail" that has not been heard for so long in anger.

Let us know your thoughts on the offer.

[fbref5269]

j dub,

i'm with bill where do i send my 50.

frank

[Mark75H]

Sounds good to me too

[Gene East]

Me toooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!

[Roy Hodges]

yoose gys can yap about the sound the the looper 6 , i have not heard one. So - until I do , I'll repeat that those of you who never heard the Hendricks boys - back in the late 50's - coming back to the Stockton Rod & gun club , at full song -with 2 Mk58's on a powercat
catamaran , with each sporting a quincy 4 pipe megaphone system, WOW ! you could hear them from miles away , before they arrived. The race was Stockton to Colusa and back , one way Saturday ,Sunday ,come back to Stockton. Mind you, this was the Sacramento River . Much sweeter sound than the big 100 inch Mercs that ran stacks at Havasu world championships . Those raspy things hurt my ears .

[ferv888ipba]

J-Dub,
Count me in Bill for 50 as well. Just say where to send it.

I want to call it running on the capsule at Depue!!!!:eek::eek:

Ray

[Gene East]

yoose gys can yap about the sound the the looper 6 , i have not heard one. So - until I do , I'll repeat that those of you who never heard the Hendricks boys - back in the late 50's - coming back to the Stockton Rod & gun club , at full song -with 2 Mk58's on a powercat
catamaran , with each sporting a quincy 4 pipe megaphone system, WOW ! you could hear them from miles away , before they arrived. The race was Stockton to Colusa and back , one way Saturday ,Sunday ,come back to Stockton. Mind you, this was the Sacramento River . Much sweeter sound than the big 100 inch Mercs that ran stacks at Havasu world championships . Those raspy things hurt my ears .

Pipes on twin 4 bangers DO sound good, but until you've heard a 6-Looper,
"You ain't heard nuthin yet"!

Oh yeah, pipes on the big 6 cyl. Mercs. don't sound near as sweet.

Would anyone be surprised if I told you Quincy Welding made those pipes as a vendor for Mercury?

[Danny Pigott]

Gene, I heard back in the day that Quincy made those pipes for Mercury. You are the only person I ever heard say that they did sence then. I have always wanted to ask that queston but did not, thanks for the Info. There were a lot of them run on V bottoms around here after Mercury stopped running them.

[J-Dub]

WOW!!!!! What a compliment! Thanks guys! That be a no can do... In the event you guys are dying to make a racing donation I recommend the Hydroplane Museum or the APBA Historical Society. Both organizations are a big help to ALL of boat racing.
Financially, the engine is about complete. But THANK YOU! The missing link I need is a Bass Over/Under unit which I have ordered. I planned to run the 17:16 gear (1.06%) with a new Dewald 7 3/4" X 15" four blade. Craig made this special for the Looper Project and he even named the prop Big Bertha.

Here are the calculations I had for the Hydro. I have the engine speed a little low so I can try to keep the rods snuggled in nice inside the crankcase. There is a REALLY smart guy in California (We'll call him Rich) that says it should turn 9600 or more... Do the math...

The Runabout should be about a .83 or .85 prop slip at top end.

Manufacturer
Engine RPM Six Looper 9,200
Gear Ratio Bass 17 16 1.0625
Prop RPM 9775
Prop Pitch 15
Prop Diameter 7.75
Tip Speed 9911.442708
Boat Speed 138.8494318
Prop Slip 0.9
Corrected Boat Speed 124.9644886

J-Dub

[David Mason]

Once he completes the run on the capsule, anyone want to attempt it in a kneeler ? I would be curious with todays slightly more modern designs, how fast could she go for a person with a small brain and big something else. I dunno if I would even have the intestinal fortitude to see how fast it would go on the back of an era boat.

I am betting this engine could easily surpass 130MPH with some set up work and prop work. That is one thing that has devloped at a much faster rate than any hydros.

Man, this has the hair on the back of my neck standing up thinking about it. There is a place in a hydro that few have ever found. That place is when all is quiet, even with a six on the back. When you reach that spot, you will know what I mean. If you have to ask if I mean death, you have not been to that spot.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I liked Bill Van's idea. I was just about to go out and by gummed labels and see what kind of sponsorship decals I could make for all the ones of us that wanted to contribute. Oh well....you know J Dub, that there are a lot of us out here that are wishing for and believing in some great success with your project. And we look forward to updates.

David...that spot you are talking about is more than just quiet. It's kind of an erie calm that overcomes the noise of a motor and you can hear different and quieter sounds you never heard before...like the high pitched whine of the drive line and lower unit components, then maybe like in my case you silently wonder in peace....how long can THAT go on?

[J-Dub]

This may be "The Spot" you are refering to. Not to be confused with "The Spot" in the avtar pic...
Both are very quiet....

J-Dub

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Right on both counts.:eek::cool:

[David Mason]

J Dub, that might be the spot, but only you can be the judge. I have never been in a capsule pro hydro, so it might be different that an open air cockpit. I imagine you could hear the sound of the wind and water over anything else in that run. It is the spot you can hear your own breathing, every sense is on overdrive, you don't need to worry about looking at any speedo, you know you are moving. I am betting you know the spot I speak of.

At any rate, I beleive you might find the spot again if you put that sweet six on the back of a large FEH ! Have you named the engine yet ?

[Jeff Lytle]

Hows it going J Dub? Any news to share?

[racingfan1]

That capsule with the Quincy 6 needs to run on Lake DePue. Howard was always a favorite there and that motor on his old boat would be a huge hit. About the only other old motor that runs there is the one Fucshlin brings for the 1100 runabout and that is always a bit hit - not to mention competitive if he starts out front.

[J-Dub]

I'm in Detroit, running for the Gold Cup this weekend. As fo rthe Quincy... it has gotten to be less of a priority... We hope to run it on Howards DeSilva in September at Moses Lake. We have everything for it, and the crank assembly is completed except for hanging the pistons on the rods. I do need to get a couple of the elbows without the little divider in them which Ken (The Owner) does have at his place.

J-Dub

[racingfan1]

Pro Nationals are July 30 - Aug 1 in DePue. Any chance of making it J-Dub ?

[Richard Haviland]

I ran one of Wayne Walgrave's 11'6" hulls with a Mark 55H back in the day. Wayne is a good friend and we spent a lot of time together back then. We went to the world finals back in the fall of '71 I believe in Louisiana, where someone clocked Wayne at 135 mph in practice! We had so much trouble keeping shear pins in the prop shaft that Wayne made connection with someone from the local air base who brought him some "aircraft" bolts which finally solved that problem. We had the fastest rig on the lake at the time, but were defeated by hitting an aligator milling before the race, and tore off half the propeller! This was a bit disconcerting as we were told there were hardly any fish in that lake and were swimming in it the day before. The guys from Texas stood on the bank and said, "Where'd Y'all say you were from?" They figured it was way to late in the year to swim. Wayn'es boats were from a design concocted by a fighter pilot who designed them to be a stable aerodynamic platform with no lift coming from the flat deck, and the wedge nose keeping them firm in the air. I used to fly mine about an inch off the water riding on my re-shaped gear box, and there were no D Mods that could beat it. We raced with Midwest Power Boat Assoc. out of Minneapolis, MN where I could step down a class with my stocker, and run with the C Pros. I actually won a race at Minnominee, WI. Ran it wide open, never backed off for the corners! Controlled it all with body english. What a ride! Wayne's six was an animal! People would stand behind us on the shore because it was so wicked looking, and wouldn't pay attention when we told them they should move. After we'd light the fire, you should have seen them run! If you'd like any more info, I can tell some stories. Hope this goes well, it's my first time using one of these forums.

[racingfan1]

Just saw the Gold Cub accident. Hope everything comes out ok .

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

I saw Wayne Walgrave race quite a few times in the late 60/early 70's time frame, and no doubt he had very good engines and boats that performed very well. In addition he was a very good driver. I saw his 6 looper run quite a few times in competition, but don't remember him ever running any Kilo's, at least when I was attending races where he was..

All that being said, I also witnessed Jerry Waldman's 114 MPH or so Kilo run at Alexandria La.with a "D" looper, and also saw Jerry Peterson's Kilo run with a 6 Looper like Walgrave's that set a new record at "F" record at 107 MPH. I believe those two runs were the same day, but without digging a little I wont swear to it in writing. Based on those experiences and having attended quite a few Kilo trials including the one where Dan Kirts set the at the time 500 Hydro Kilo record that included a pass at 127 MPH quite a few years later than the time frame Wayne Walgrave raced,, I would have a hard time accepting a 135 MPH speed by ANY outboard on a Hydro of that day and time, as boat design of the time, and course length at Alex just probably would not allow it. 110 to 115 maybe, but anything higher I would have to see the timers on a measured course.

In no way do I mean to take anything away from Wayne's accomplishments, as I pointed out in the first paragraph of this post, but somebody was either pulling somebody's leg, or had a VERY optimistic stopwatch.. This is my opinion of course, and others are welcome to theirs also.

[J-Dub]

Hell yeah I will be there! But with my foot broken in so many places, the only thing I will driving is the motorhome...

J-Dub

[Allen J. Lang]

After watching a video of you coming out of the third turn and heading straight for the pit area, your turn towards the right saved a big problem. Someone on faceboook posted a picture of your turn fin just about flat on the water. An amazing close up. Was glad to read you came out so well.
Cheers

[Gene East]

I ran one of Wayne Walgrave's 11'6" hulls with a Mark 55H back in the day. Wayne is a good friend and we spent a lot of time together back then. We went to the world finals back in the fall of '71 I believe in Louisiana, where someone clocked Wayne at 135 mph in practice! We had so much trouble keeping shear pins in the prop shaft that Wayne made connection with someone from the local air base who brought him some "aircraft" bolts which finally solved that problem. We had the fastest rig on the lake at the time, but were defeated by hitting an aligator milling before the race, and tore off half the propeller! This was a bit disconcerting as we were told there were hardly any fish in that lake and were swimming in it the day before. The guys from Texas stood on the bank and said, "Where'd Y'all say you were from?" They figured it was way to late in the year to swim. Wayn'es boats were from a design concocted by a fighter pilot who designed them to be a stable aerodynamic platform with no lift coming from the flat deck, and the wedge nose keeping them firm in the air. I used to fly mine about an inch off the water riding on my re-shaped gear box, and there were no D Mods that could beat it. We raced with Midwest Power Boat Assoc. out of Minneapolis, MN where I could step down a class with my stocker, and run with the C Pros. I actually won a race at Minnominee, WI. Ran it wide open, never backed off for the corners! Controlled it all with body english. What a ride! Wayne's six was an animal! People would stand behind us on the shore because it was so wicked looking, and wouldn't pay attention when we told them they should move. After we'd light the fire, you should have seen them run! If you'd like any more info, I can tell some stories. Hope this goes well, it's my first time using one of these forums.

Richard,

Like Bill Van I have great respect for Wayne Walgrave. I even rode second man with him in F-Runabout at the Nationals one year, but I don't believe Wayne was ever OFFICIALLY clocked at 135 MPH, nor did you imply that it was an official run. There is no denying that Wayne's F was extremely fast!

I remember Wayne telling me about hitting the gator at Alexandria. Unfortunately he told me about it at Hot Springs just shortly after Gerry Waldman died.

Wayne had not yet learned of Gerry's death when he said (referring to the gator) "dead as a doornail". Wayne could get loud when excited and several people overheard that comment and were a little shocked, myself included

All of us have said things without realizing we may have hurt others with our innocent comments.

Wayne was quite embarrassed that day. I felt so sorry for him, but everyone knew how much he respected Gerry and accepted the comment for what it was, an innocent unfortunate choice of words at a very delicate time.

God, I wish we could erase the painful memories of that day.

[racingfan1]

Hey J-Dub , As my user name says I am a fan and never raced before so excuse me if this seems like a dumb question.:confused: I was wondering if your expierence of going thru the kilos helped you turn the unlimited during the mishap. :eek: I know you remove the turning fins and mirrors to get the most speed when running the kilos and you have to turn the boat around for the return pass. I know the boats are very different and probably didnt have alot of time think , but just react !!!!!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I hope it went well with you Richard. We would like to hear more of your stories. There are a lot of champion racers that came out of the Midwest Power Boat Association, and even if some of the guys don''t have plaques on the wall, they are still first rate boat racers. A lot of my friends both from the past and current raced that circuit. Stir up the cobwebs and crank out some more stories. You did good jumping in here to post.:cool:

[R Austin]

I ran one of Wayne Walgrave's 11'6" hulls with a Mark 55H back in the day. Wayne is a good friend and we spent a lot of time together back then. We went to the world finals back in the fall of '71 I believe in Louisiana, where someone clocked Wayne at 135 mph in practice! We had so much trouble keeping shear pins in the prop shaft that Wayne made connection with someone from the local air base who brought him some "aircraft" bolts which finally solved that problem. We had the fastest rig on the lake at the time, but were defeated by hitting an aligator milling before the race, and tore off half the propeller! This was a bit disconcerting as we were told there were hardly any fish in that lake and were swimming in it the day before. The guys from Texas stood on the bank and said, "Where'd Y'all say you were from?" They figured it was way to late in the year to swim. Wayn'es boats were from a design concocted by a fighter pilot who designed them to be a stable aerodynamic platform with no lift coming from the flat deck, and the wedge nose keeping them firm in the air. I used to fly mine about an inch off the water riding on my re-shaped gear box, and there were no D Mods that could beat it. We raced with Midwest Power Boat Assoc. out of Minneapolis, MN where I could step down a class with my stocker, and run with the C Pros. I actually won a race at Minnominee, WI. Ran it wide open, never backed off for the corners! Controlled it all with body english. What a ride! Wayne's six was an animal! People would stand behind us on the shore because it was so wicked looking, and wouldn't pay attention when we told them they should move. After we'd light the fire, you should have seen them run! If you'd like any more info, I can tell some stories. Hope this goes well, it's my first time using one of these forums.

I have watched this thread with interest and thought that having been an individual that has run both the 6 deflecter and looper in competion and straight-a-way, it was time to add a comment.
First to set the record straight on F Straight-a-way records. As far as reconized by the NOA, Waldman had set a record of 106+ in 1964 after recieving the R-22 from Entroup. In 1965 at Sandford Lake Mi. Waldman sponsered a straight-a-way day. I had a McDonald at that time and Jerry has ask me to run AC plugs for the attempts as he new that I was running close. Instead I blew a gear case.
In 1966 after wing both the APBA and NOA F Hydro Classes, I finaly broke Jerrys record with a 107+ speed. I had made a one way pass at 109.5 during the 4 or 5 attemps made that day before breaking the record.
1967 I ran the Looper of the same boat which ran strong and struggled with breaking reed cages and crankshafts. Had a few good rides but was a bad season.
In 1968 peterson broke my record at Alex at 108+. Is was supprised that he was only able to muster 108. with a Looper.
Now how fast will a 6 Looper go. From my experiense, I do not believe that a 6 Looper will exceed 120. The motor will not turn a overdrive unit any better than just prop increase in pitch. The fact that Entroup had pust the UMI record sponsered by Mercuy back in the
50's to 115 with a deflector sets the stage. The Looper had much more acceleration than the deflector but the deflector would run on top end given enough room. The water drag, air drag and power requirements all increase by the square of the number as speed increases. It will tke a hull that lifts and flies on a bubble like the capovers and planes on the gearcaseand very small frontal area to reach the 120 mark. I fin the 114 make of Jerrys with the D an amassing feat and reinforces the potentional speed of the 6.
Attached are pics of M-21 on the record run in 1966 and of a record attempt in 1967 of M-14 by John Mc Mullen with Looper that ended with a blow-over.
Prove me wrong and I will congradulate you.
I added a couple more pics Pop Smiht doing engine inspection, His comment after the run was "It never touched the water, I have never seen anything run like that". and Jerry coming out to congradulate me after breaking his record. A prince of a men.

[Gene East]

I can't think of anyone more qualified to speak on this subject than Dick Austin.

120 mph max?

I hope he's wrong, but we may never know for sure.

I know one thing for certain, the 6 looper was a crowd pleaser and the racers in the pits usually stopped what they were doing to watch and listen when the 6 bangers were running.

There is no sweeter sound in all racing!

[Mark75H]

I agree. It will be interesting to see if Dick is 100% correct. I suspect he will be and it will be interesting to see the outcome either way.

[bandit]

I personly don't care 1 iota as 5mph. one way or the other is real hard to see from the shore, it was a time when a lot of things were made in the U.S.A.
Not so any more for better or worse , worse i think.

[Allen J. Lang]

Bill Fales ran over the century mark with his 6 Looper on a 14' DeSilva before he blew it over on the return trip breaking his back. Was any one there when this happened. It was a NOA timed run.:cool:

[Tim Chance]

Bill Fales ran over the century mark with his 6 Looper on a 14' DeSilva before he blew it over on the return trip breaking his back. Was any one there when this happened. It was a NOA timed run.:cool:
Burlington, North Carolina. It was dawn and I was asleep in the camper. When I heard that eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee sound. I got up and started putting on my clothes so I could go watch. Then it went eeeeeeek. And silence. It took a long long time to get Bill to shore. That is all I remember.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

For those of us who have been there..........you told it perfectly Tim. You could be sitting inside your tent drinking coffee and here the sound you told about....and know exactly what happened. Then you get worried.

[Allen J. Lang]

Thanks for the update Tim. Bill didn't tell me where he was running. He did say that that was his last ride alone.
With todays props, what would a FRR looper run through the traps now? :D

[F-12]

I think, having the only limits being ability and set-up, and knowing what an anilmal a 6 banger flathead is.............the question really is "How fast do you want to go?"

[wolfgang]

Thanks for the update Tim. Bill didn't tell me where he was running. He did say that that was his last ride alone.
With todays props, what would a FRR looper run through the traps now? :D
I have the utmost respect and admiration for the men who rode the original FRRs, with Mssrs Fuchslin, Fales, and Anderson enjoying superstar status, not to forget their deck riders. My question for those in the know: in race-ready form, what would typically have been the hp and rpm of an F looper vs the performance figures of a highly modded Merc counterpart, and what fuel mix was typically run?

[Original Looper 1]

The Alky B Quincy Merc Deflector was at the end of the road in terms of sustainability due to the Deflector's piston at 39.5 HP.

The reason we went to the Looper, besides the obvious need for more power in racing competition, was because the Deflector piston dome, at 39.5 HP with a 2.500 bore, would literally melt completely off the piston. My father told me stories about how everything was fine when the racers went into the turns at high speed, only to come out of the turns with obviously significant power loss, which later was discovered to be caused by dome meltdown.

So a 60 inch early Alky Quincy Mod Deflector should have been, or would have been, 39.5 times 3 = 118.5 HP at 7800 RPMs.

In dynoing a 22 CI, 2 cylinder Alky Quincy Merc full house Deflector, I saw HP in the low 40's, maybe 42 or 43, before the dome said "see ya." So a 66 inch Alky Quincy Merc Deflector should be about 3 times 43 = 129 HP at 7500 to 7800 RPMs.

The early technology B Alky Looper put out 50 HP x 3 = 150 HP at 9000 RPMs for a 60 CI
6 cylinder Looper.

The latest technology B Alky Looper put out 65 HP at 9500 RPMs, 65 x 3 = 195 HP for a 60 CI Looper.

The early technology for a 66 CI Alky Looper was 180 HP at 9000 RPMs. The latest technology at the time for this motor was 225 HP at 10,000 RPMs.

These figures are based on my firsthand observation and engine development on the Quincy dyno for over 8 years and over 1000 Quincy Welding/ Precision Machine shop dyno cards as a reference.

The biggest problems I see with attempting a late kilo record with a 6 cylinder Alky Looper is:
#1 - the motor's massive height is a difficult aerodynamic deterrent to overcome and
#2 - finding a lower unit that has the R dimension center section (like the D Konig) that can withstand the brutal torque the engine produces. A Konig D unit absolutely will not live under the torque of this engine. The Speedmaster can withstand the torque but it has far too much drag for the kind of speeds the HP of the engine is capable of producing.

I know various people that are working to solve these problems and time will tell how well they succeed.

Thank you for your interest.


Paul A Christner

[Mark75H]

Paul, can you post some of those dyno cards for 6's showing 100+ hp for deflectors?

[Original Looper 1]

Sam,

The records are kept in storage for safe keeping and I don't like handling the cards and records unnecessarily/ too frequently due to the age of them. Obviously I am trying to preserve them as well as I can due to the rich racing history they contain.

As to a specific request, I am sure you are well aware, especially by now, that there are many older famous racing engines (because of famous racers), especially the 6 cylinders (both Deflectors and Loopers) that Quincy Welding manufactured or modified that have not yet been "discovered" or accounted for. Names such as Gerry Waldman, Wayne Walgrave, Mel Kirts, Sheriff Hatton, Marshall Grant, Billy Seebold, Tim Butts, etc.

I made a rule way back that I would not generally give out the specifics of the Quincy racing engines (including dyno cards) or their serial numbers on the Internet because it wouldn't be fair to the growing population of race engine collectors and enthusiasts in their pursuit of these old treasures. That's why I've held back on putting up all the dyno cards and many other engine records even on the Quincy Looper site. To date, there are only 2 dyno cards posted there and no engine record pages.

The rules are still the same as far as Quincy Welding/Precision Machine race engines goes -- you find an engine and I will be glad to verify it's provenance. Fair to everyone!

thanks,

Paul A Christner

[Mark75H]

So it should be within the "Quincy Rules" to post a scan of a card with the owner info blanked out.


If the cards are so fragile, you and David should find someone you trust to help you copy or scan them so they will still be around to help future generations learn about the motors.

It would be a shame to loose so much valuable information.

[Mark75H]

I have watched this thread with interest and thought that having been an individual that has run both the 6 deflecter and looper in competion and straight-a-way,


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[Gene East]

Thanks for posting this video.
Didn't that thing sound sweet going down the back stretch?
I'll have to watch it again later when I can turn up the volume.
Norma is still asleep!

[Gene East]

Well now it's 1:00 in the afternoon and I turned up the volume.

As I suspected she would, Norma came into the computer room to see what I was watching/listening to.

She can't understand why I have tears in my eyes, but she will be at DePue.

She says she goes for the tacos, but I'm not sure that's the only reason.

[bandit]

:)I have a cd of Wayne W. and his looper. I listen to it every now and then not having actually heard a looper in person. Must have been a hell of a motor. Of course i'm partiall to made in the U.S.A. goods. Few and far between these days.)
Richard

[bandit]

So it should be within the "Quincy Rules" to post a scan of a card with the owner info blanked out.

Sam i am is right on in this subject.

[J-Dub]

Coming to Lake Washington New Years Day!
Pictures and video to follow.

J-Dub

[Jeff Lytle]

Careful man!...............But squeeze it like there won't be a tomorrow! :cool::eek::eek::cool:

[J-Dub]

Just need to hang the ignition and fuel system on it then bolt'r up to Howard's 1976 DeSilva KR. Add fuel,then hook it up to my dyno and pull the string Saturday! (Its real easy to do from behind the computer huh?)
I am NOT gonna have a crappy running engine with Howard Anderson at the test site on Sunday. I will post some videos once we have it running.

J-Dub

[Jeff Lytle]

Sweeeeeeet! :D

[Allen J. Lang]

Will be looking forward to the videos. Nothing like the sound of a 6 banger looper at top end. :D

[Frank Volker]

I don't see any problem with 130+ with the right setup. If I were going for the last 4 or 5 mph, I'd run the old style elbows, move the water injection point about 1" from the flange, and run Gen II pipes with about 1" off. I'd also wrap the engine in some sort of aero-friendly cowl. If I got that far, I'd pull the inlet air from a common plenum fed by an air duct for at least some ram effect--which is a valid move at those higher speeds. But then, that's just me.

Best of luck and enjoy the ride. :)

Frank V.

[J-Dub]

Why the early style elbows? We have plenty of the early style. What the difference between the two?

J-Dub

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

perhaps the older elbow because of the shorter radius, places the reflection point in the megaphone closer to the exhaust port, narrowing the power band, but raising the RPM?

I would like to know the thinking behind this myself, as I paid a lot of money to "update" a Quincy "C" to the later pipe elbow as is shown on the 6 in the picture, in either the late 60's or early 70's, probably the former, as the latest mod at that time for more HP/speed as touted by Christner.

[Frank Volker]

If I recall, there was a problem with some of the short radius elbows breaking in competition. Also, the Gen 3 flares were the best overall for the race course. The subject of this thread is "How Fast Will A Quincy 6 Go?" and is not about competition if I have interpreted the meaning properly. Moreover, I assume that J-Dub's addition to this discussion is about top-end speed and not a competition setup. So, with that in mind, my suggestions for J-Dub are based on the following:

1. The short radius elbows and Gen 2 megaphones present a smaller projected (drag) area than the wide radius setup. This is particularly important with the top 2 cylinders, since drag at this point could result in sufficient torque at the transom to raise the bow. This is a surprise you don't need. A cowling around the engine would help, but a smaller projected area would help even more.

2. Injecting water nearer the flange cools more straight section than injecting water at a location near the megaphone entrance--as is the case with the newer elbows/flares. This pseudo-lengthening of the straight inlet section would most likely pull more low-end HP and pull a bigger prop through the mid-RPM range faster.

This is only my take on setting up a Quincy 6 and a somewhat loose answer to the "How Fast" question.

Frank V.

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Frank:

Was I correct in my thinking regards shorter radius versus longer radius elbows putting the reflection point in the megaphones closer to the exhaust port?

It makes sense that you would want a set up that would broaden out the power band for most of the motors that would be used primarily on closed course competition versus straight-a-way trials which were few and far between back then, and only at a few locations like Kaukauna, Alex, and a few locations in Florida.

[MN1]

Here's a photo of the Airmarine F Hydro at the Kakauna, WI Kilo runs.

Mark N

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/MN392/Airmarine.jpg

[deanwilson]

That's an interesting idea Frank.

I know that Dad and Larry tried the wide elbows with chambers for a while since Larry had success with the 2 cyl motors. However, on the 6 they couldn't resolve a lean condtion at sustained high rpm.

As I remember, having a really good/strong ignition is mandatory and skidding rod bearings becomes a problem as your near the 10k rpm level

[Frank Volker]

Bill,
I wasn't at QW during the change to the newer elbows. When I did my thesis exhaust work in '71, they were the std system. I'm guessing that the intent was to maintain centerline distance from exhaust port to megaphone with the newer elbows, since this is a most critical distance. I don't think anything but a very sophisticated CFD program could provide an answer to how the bend radius of the older vs newer elbow affects wave action, although I'm sure the boundary detachment at the inner radius was more severe with the older elbows.

I'm sure that the older elbows would have an even higher failure rate with the big (Gen 3) flares, which were heavier than the older megaphones, but showed a definite HP improvement at upper mid-range to peak and over-peak HP. My biggest concern--tuning wise--with the newer elbows was that the water injection boss was near the megaphone end of the inlet pipe and the cast-in boss aimed the water directly downstream into the megaphone, seemingly bypassing a significant part of inlet pipe section altogether.

Dean,
A later exp chamber had a much fatter midsection. A mod'd version of this ended up on the Z engine. This probably pulled more mixture through the cylinders, possibly helping with the leaning condition. There were indications in some of the dyno tests that a constant injection of very small amount of water helped over the entire RPM range. It was very difficult to control, however. A sophisticated microprocessor-based control strategy could handle this, but that technology was about 10 years away. And there were not enough hours in the day.

Frank V.

[J-Dub]

Well didn't get'r to 100% today. By the time the we improved the functions of the throttle, distributer lock, water lines to the engine, safe & cool routing of the plug wires, spray shield brackets, it was time to call it a day and a year... So tomorrow is the day we dyno and make beautiful music! As for on the water testing, that'll have to wait till next weekend.

BTW: To all you die hard Quincy guys, WOW! I love to work on race equipment, but the patience and time it takes to do this well is astounding!

Videos will be on tomorrow afternoon of the dyno pulls!

J-Dub

[Master Oil Racing Team]

This is a fantastic project J-Dub. Thanks for all the time and effort you are putting into it. You're salvaging some history for those who never witnessed the 6 looper run, and for those of us who did not realize at the time, what we were seeing and hearing. There are movies of some of them racing, but very few cameras back then had sound. Looking forward to the video. It's also great to see that beauty hangin on Howard Anderson's runabout.

[Steve Litzell]

Hey J Dub, Did you hurt it on the dyno? You been quit last couple day's. Hope not want to see if you have the stones to grip it tight in that DeSilva! :D:D:D:eek:

[J-Dub]

Hey Steve,

Man, did I ever under estimate the magnitude of this project! If this were any other project, I would have zip tied the plug wires outta the way, I would have shimmed nuts with washers, made chicken s%&t spray shield brackets, and all that.
Also, while I had everything apart, I machined the tower for Corey’s Hydro (Howard’s old boat) to accept the Quincy on that boat too! Now after all this screwing around, both boats will quickly accept the 500 Yamato, 700 Konny, and the 60” Looper!
Gimme a couple weeks, and we will go see how fast it’ll really go on the hydro!
FYI: This engine is not set up “KILL”!

J-Dub

[J-Dub]

Initial Start up last night. (1-3-12) Every time I turn around there was another challege to overcome. NOW ITS DYNO TIME!

Sorry Steve, I still didn't clean the boat off...

J-Dub

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVZNKGg_nY8

[Mark75H]

Its alive! Alive I tell you!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DVZNKGg_nY8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Hit the 4 arrows icon in the lower right of the video frame (visible after the video starts or directly on YouTube) to view full screen size on your monitor :)

[Gene East]

Huh, Huh?

My wife gave me hearing aids for Christmas and this is one of the reason why!

Sure sounded sweet though, and it looks as good as it sounds. Great restoration!

Will some one come wipe the silly grin off my face?

[Steve Litzell]

Initial Start up last night. (1-3-12) Every time I turn around there was another challege to overcome. NOW ITS DYNO TIME!

Sorry Steve, I still didn't clean the boat off...

J-Dub

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVZNKGg_nY8

Sounds good J Dub, Hope you can go to the pond this weekend. Not many can understand how long it takes to make the little stuff for a project like this, like making up the wire looms for the plug wires. Still want to see if you have the stones to latch it up all the way and hold it, in that old flower box!:D:D:D:D

[Steve Litzell]

Huh, Huh?

My wife gave me hearing aids for Christmas and this is one of the reason why!

Sure sounded sweet though, and it looks as good as it sounds. Great restoration!

Will some one come wipe the silly grin off my face?

Notice that the candy a$$ pulling it over had to have a bigger diameter rope plate than what you use to use????:D:D:D:D

[Gene East]

I was younger then!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That's when you could run from one end of the pits at DePue to the other Gene with a 44 looper tucked under your left arm and balancing with your right arm weaving through the boats.:cool::D

[jrome]

Wayne I saw Gene do it at Alex more than one time.

[F-12]

Only 1 44? I think I remember seeing Mr. East running down the pits with a couple, one in each arm. This was DePue when you could hear everyone yelling.........."Gene....Down here!". When you're good, you're good. Gene was.....and still is the best.

[Gene East]

Charley, Charley, Charley.

What am I going to do with you? I never carried more than one motor at a time, but thanks anyway.

I'm looking forward to DePue. I just heard from Jimmy Aderholdt,(yes that Jimmy Aderholdt) that he will be there in 125 and 175 hydro.

It's been a long time since I've heard from him. We need to get him on BRF. I'll work on him.

BTW: How's your 350 shaping up. Hope you had a great Christmas. We're ALL going to have a great 2012.

Hope J-Dub can do his thing with the six banger. Didn't that sound sweet? And he was just idling!

I feel so sorry for the young bucks who missed the good times we BDOBR's had!

[Steve Litzell]

That's when you could run from one end of the pits at DePue to the other Gene with a 44 looper tucked under your left arm and balancing with your right arm weaving through the boats.:cool::D

I remember seeing that as well! Quite an impression on a young high school kid. I always wanted to rope like Gene and when I met him a couple years ago, I told him he was one of my heros. gene reminds me of another man I met through Odell lewis at a offshore race. His name was Mell Riggs. Odell always said that " Mell's mother dressed him funny, She put his legs out his shirt sleeves". Same could be said about Gene back then. Just pickin at ya bit Gene:D:D:D:D Steve

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Gene's arms were much bigger than my legs when I first met him Steve. We were the enemy then, as we ran Konigs, but when you watch a powerhead swap before your eyes, you have to nod your head to the enemy.;):D I didn't know they did something like that on a regular basis, as Joe alluded to. I only saw it once, but that was enough for me. Quincy Welding should have made sure that their CDF racers pitted closer together. No....cancel that thought. If it weren't for that.....a pit man by the name of Gene East may not have come to my attention....and become a great and dear friend.:cool:

[Tim Chance]

Here is Gene putting the muscle to my 500 Konig a couple of years ago. To Gene, you don’t have to do that anymore. At DePue both Charley and I have electric starters so all you have to exercise is your right thumb. To everyone else that rumbling that you feel in the ground is not an earthquake it is just O.F. rolling over in his grave at the thought of Gene cranking a dreaded Konig.

[Gene East]

Thank all of you for your kind comments.You're bringing tears to a fat old man's eyes.

I love all of you like the brothers you are.

P.S. Tim
I think O.F. will forgive me. We'll ask him someday.

J-Dub, Do you have any further reports?? This thread is about you, not me.

[J-Dub]

After a few carb pointers from Mr. Fuchslin, and a test trial with the dyno, I'm off to make some noise! I am taking it to Kens place (The owner of the engine), because he doesn't pissing off his neighbors with a little racket. My shop in right in Edmonds where any prolonged dyno pulls with an open megaphone engine would likely result in a visit from the local police. Don't need that. We'll save that for the 2800HP turbine, which makes less noise...
Also, my friend Patrick Gleason did catch video of yesterdays brief pull, but he was having difficulties posting it.

The video is on my facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1041570831

J-Dub

[Tim Weber]

J Dub,

It's been way fun watching this take place. I spoke with Lon Stevens a few years ago and I asked him about his baby.

He told that his best dyno pull was 156 hp. Now, how accurate his dyno? This was the engine that Fuschlin has run. I asked him why he didn't play with a looper. He didn't feel you could pull as much power plus he felt is was a disadvatage to his deflector set up with the extra weight.

I'll be real curious to see what you pull. I'm sure there will be other comments deflector 6
verses looper 6.

Tim

[J-Dub]

Tim,
This dyno is 100% accurate to the next engine that gets put on it!:eek: God knows how much energy is absorbed in the 2:1 OMC unit I got from SeaWay for $40. Although I don't have the balls to go full power @ full load with this engine. Just isn't worth the risk.
Dad and I are going to build a simple 2:1 gearbox in an effort to simplify the entire system utilizing spur gears and a single stage oil pump for the "Dry Sump" gearbox. This mainly due because the Land & Sea Dyno unit is rated to 5000 rpm at the oil break.

Keep you posted,.

J-Dub

[Gene East]

I agree you should not risk blowing this jewel on the dyno. Quincy Welding used a water brake dyno and could generate steam with a 4 banger. No need in blowing the the gears in the lower unit and over-revving the engine.

I just watched the video with the sound off (my wife is still asleep and I'm not stupid).

Will watch again later when she's not home!

[racnbns]

I agree you should not risk blowing this jewel on the dyno. Quincy Welding used a water brake dyno and could generate steam with a 4 banger. No need in blowing the the gears in the lower unit and over-revving the engine.

I just watched the video with the sound off (my wife is still asleep and I'm not stupid).

Will watch again later when she's not home!

How sweet it is!

Gene we could go to the River House and just play the tape, but the tape doesn't do it justice.

Bruce

[Gene East]

We could play the CD of you and Wayne Walgrave and Dean Wilson running against each other, but mine got destroyed. Bummer!

I opened all the doors on my pickup at a MOD test day and played that CD full blast. Luckily I didn't blow the speakers.

These Mod guys think a 44 deflector sounds sweet.They didn't know what to think when they heard not 1; but 3, 6 cylinder loopers singing at the same time.

BTW: The River House is now a biker bar called Kutters. I still go there on occasion.

However; if you want good fish in Quincy, you have to go to Jimbeana's. Jim and Sabina were the owners of the River House. I think Kutters offerred them a deal they couldn't refuse. I ate the first catfish sold by Jimbeana's on their opening day!

Norma and I had dinner there last Friday with John Christner and his wife Susanne. John had buffalo because they were out of carp. The rest of us had catfish of course!

[Steve Litzell]

Tim,
This dyno is 100% accurate to the next engine that gets put on it!:eek: God knows how much energy is absorbed in the 2:1 OMC unit I got from SeaWay for $40. Although I don't have the balls to go full power @ full load with this engine. Just isn't worth the risk.
Dad and I are going to build a simple 2:1 gearbox in an effort to simplify the entire system utilizing spur gears and a single stage oil pump for the "Dry Sump" gearbox. This mainly due because the Land & Sea Dyno unit is rated to 5000 rpm at the oil break.

Keep you posted,.

J-Dub

Ok You Slacker, get off your A$$ and get that boat in the water and give to us some info. It's gonna be February soon and you have not givin us a report on the 6 test. Don't give me that crap that you have been busy or the weather has been bad or some other slacker excuse! Hell anyone can run a motor on a dyno..... CHUMP!:D:D:D

[Steve Litzell]

Don't know, The Slacker won't tell us:eek::eek:

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Steve...you and the mizz need to change the pitch in your mud slide machine. A little less pitch, a lot of cup and some slo RPM's. It's still cold up there. Don't want to go too fast before everything is heated up and seated in.:)

[Steve Litzell]

Steve...you and the mizz need to change the pitch in your mud slide machine. A little less pitch, a lot of cup and some slo RPM's. It's still cold up there. Don't want to go too fast before everything is heated up and seated in.:)

Just waiting for my phone to ring from JDub, If I don't break his stones he will think I don't like him anymore;)

And the Mudslide machine is always working good, Can't wait to mix you up some. Steve

[J-Dub]

Just to shut Steve’s piehole... As most of you could hear, the engine never cleaned out too well. So we pulled the carbs off to check things out. We found 2 floats and a sinker. Dad looked around his stuff and found 2 floatless carbs, and no Carter floats. So I guess we are set for four cylinder engines but not for a six. Rich Fuchslin may be able to help. I just gotta call him, also he did offer to dial in the “Float” carbs for us. So at this point I need a float, possibly two, before we run it again.

Steve, See you in Chicago this week?

J-Dub

[Steve Litzell]

Just to shut Steve’s piehole... As most of you could hear, the engine never cleaned out too well. So we pulled the carbs off to check things out. We found 2 floats and a sinker. Dad looked around his stuff and found 2 floatless carbs, and no Carter floats. So I guess we are set for four cylinder engines but not for a six. Rich Fuchslin may be able to help. I just gotta call him, also he did offer to dial in the “Float” carbs for us. So at this point I need a float, possibly two, before we run it again.

Steve, See you in Chicago this week?

J-Dub

Won't be in Chi Town this week but I see you have a slacker excuse for not getting the boat in the water:D:D:D See Ya soon man, Steve

[R Austin]

Just to shut Steve’s piehole... As most of you could hear, the engine never cleaned out too well. So we pulled the carbs off to check things out. We found 2 floats and a sinker. Dad looked around his stuff and found 2 floatless carbs, and no Carter floats. So I guess we are set for four cylinder engines but not for a six. Rich Fuchslin may be able to help. I just gotta call him, also he did offer to dial in the “Float” carbs for us. So at this point I need a float, possibly two, before we run it again.

Steve, See you in Chicago this week?

J-Dub

I have a few Carter floats if you do not find what you need. That is the problem that if been having trying to make mine run. Floats sinking or needles will not seal. Just to much vibration going on for floats and tank is to far forward for floatless.

I have acquired a set of Mikunis like Walgave ran.

Dick Austin

[Bob Rusnak]

I have a few Carter floats if you do not find what you need. That is the problem that if been having trying to make mine run. Floats sinking or needles will not seal. Just to much vibration going on for floats and tank is to far forward for floatless.

I have acquired a set of Mikunis like Walgave ran.

Dick Austin

What about float less Carters. I know Bill Fales ran them and worked for him. We also ran float less Catrers on out alky 6 deflector. Very simple to do.....Bob N-96

[J-Dub]

I was expecting to have float-less carbs on this engine, but as I got to the bottom of the box there were only the float style carbs in there. But my go-to guy Rich, runs with floats. I must say this is my first Quincy build, and it’s a good thing I have unlimited minutes on my phone plan! And we haven't been to the lake yet!

J-Dub

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

J-Dub:

Best I remember with my couple of years experience with Carter floatless carbs on a C and D Flathead, the removal of the floats and conversion to floatless is a fairly simple procedure. Good fuel pumps are a requirement of course, and best I remember large return lines back to tank to eliminate any restriction so as to have plenty of fuel going thru the carb. As mentioned, you don't want to go too far with the return lines back to tank.

Basically what you end up with is a metering/mixing valve with the high speed needle for adjustment and no worries about too rich/too lean from floats bouncing around or sinking. I am sure you could find something of the modern type that would work, but the Carter floatless are cheap, trouble free and sounds like you have enough to do the job, especially since the reason for the project is straight-a-way runs, i.e. no turns or competition water to upset the floats

I am sure Gene East, Jerry Peterson, Stan (Butch) Leavendusky, all who frequent this thread (Jerry of course had a 6 and set a straight-a-way record with it) could help you with some advise about how to do the modification, and I have a Merc Fuel pump in the basement if you need one that I would donate to the cause. I might even have a Carter that has been converted. I will check tomorrow.

I feel sure with all the interest in this project there are lots of folks that would be willing and anxious to help in whatever way they could. Luckily a lot of them with experience with the Flathead's are still vertical, but like some of the WWII vets, time is moving on!!

[Bob Rusnak]

I was expecting to have float-less carbs on this engine, but as I got to the bottom of the box there were only the float style carbs in there. But my go-to guy Rich, runs with floats. I must say this is my first Quincy build, and it’s a good thing I have unlimited minutes on my phone plan! And we haven't been to the lake yet!

J-Dub
I may have a float less Carter laying around. There are two on my 44 Looper, one on a 'B" and another on a "A". I can always pull one off and send on to you for a sample if it will help. It is so simple to convert. Two 5/16 fuel line fittings are required and a stand off piece of copper tubing for the fuel level. Everything inside the the carb is removed. We used three fuel pumps, one for each carb on the six we ran. I have two on the 44 looper. ....Bob N-96

[Gene East]

Probably the best (and easiest way) would be simply send J-Dub a float bowl to look at.

I don't have one. Someone out there does have one. Wouldn't it be great to know you helped prove the sweetest sounding engine in the history of outboard racing could still be the fastest after all these years!

Obviously J-Dub has the capability to do the job or he never would have had the success he's had in this restoration and/or his racing career.

I've known very few successful drivers who didn't know his way around a shop.

J-Dub isn't one of these kind, otherwise Steve wouldn't give him so much crap.

Be sure to run a SEPERATE return line from EACH carb directly to the tank.

No splices and/or elbows in the return lines (although we did use an elbow on the bottom of the bowl for clearance). Use a seperate fitting on the tank for each return line! Make the lines as short and direct to the tank as possible and still be able to turn the engine.

Since this is a record attempt and you won't be making any Hard Lefts keep the lines short, neat and direct.

That goes without saying. I've seen your plumbing on the fuel system. I know you don't/won't do anything half-assed.

Good luck, I believe 125 MPH is possible with the right boat, right set-up and the right driver. I think you're the man to get it done.

Will you be running solo or have a deck-rider? I'd love to ride with you if I wasn't so old and fat.

[Gene East]

J-Dub,I talked with Paul Christner and Jim Schoch about floatless carbs for your six banger today.

They both agree with my recommendations with one exception. Since I left Quincy Welding, a lot of guys have gone to a lower C/G by dropping the tower height. By so doing this sometimes causes the bottom carb to load up.

It is important that the return line has as much drop as possible. If the carb is near transom height or lower, you may have problems. Fuel like water, will not run uphill.

We did a little brain storming and came up with 2 ideas.

#1. Mount a dump tank on the back of the transom.

#2: Mount a small 12 volt pump on the back of the transom to pump overflow back into the tank.

Or course, you could always dump raw fuel into the lake if you have large enough tank.

JUST KIDDING! The Environmentalists are going to crap their pants just hearing this thing.

We turned stand pipes out of aluminum round stock to replace the floats. Since Jim was our carb man I asked if he remembered how high we set the stand pipe in the bowl.

He did not; however, he had 1 in his parts bins after all these years. Went right to it. I have in my hot chubby hands.

E-mail me you P.O. address and it will be in the mail tomorrow.

I was told to tell you to screw the needle valve all the way out before you try to remove the bowl. I refuse to insult your intelligence by doing so. Some of our customers probably needed to be told however! Those types are parts sellers best friends.

eastgene@yahoo.com

[Mark75H]

I think Fales solved the outside the transom fuel return by using the original pressure pulse ports on the motor to mount a pump that baled back into the boat from the bottom carb. Same idea as an electric pump, but simpler in some ways.

[Frank Volker]

Gene,
I seem to recall the following about the mods to the Model N:

The throat was reamed -- FB was larger dia than the FA, but I don't recall diameters.
The high-speed dump tube height was different on FB and FA. I think the FA was 9/16" and the FB was 1/2".

I believe the F44 ran the same carb as the FD, but not positive.
Jim can no doubt give better numbers on this.

Frank V.

[Mark75H]

Gene,
I seem to recall the following about the mods to the Model N:

The throat was reamed -- FB was larger dia than the FA, but I don't recall diameters.
The high-speed dump tube height was different on FB and FA. I think the FA was 9/16" and the FB was 1/2".

I believe the F44 ran the same carb as the FD, but not positive.
Jim can no doubt give better numbers on this.

Frank V.


I have some of those reamed carbs J-Dub is welcome to them if they will help. I have at least one stand pipe overflow bowl, but I think I also have at least one that was made by someone who didn't know what they were doing and it won't work.

[Gene East]

I was under the impression the standpipe height was.930 in. The one Jim gave me was
.800 in. It will show J-Dub the radius on the tube that no-one has mentioned to this point.

Frank you are correct, we ran the same carbs on the "44" as on the "D".

Sam, I like the pump idea you talked about.

Don't you just love the fact that even some of the staunchest Konig people are pulling for the success of this project.

Too bad the opposing factions in our goverment can't see past their own egos for the common good!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Gene...are you a mind reader? When you said Frank was correct....and then you told Sam you liked his idea..............I was thinking....Man.....this project is going to be awesome. J-Dub has people all across America rooting for this project and will send him anything to make it go. I was thinking that I wish I had something to help with, but I am a Konig guy!:D

You are right on Gene! Go J-Dub....Konig guys love that sound too. And we wish you the utmost success. I just wish I could be there with my camera. Not just for the runs, but to record all that you have to do for preparation. Pits. People.

[Frank Volker]

I was under the impression the standpipe height was.930 in. The one Jim gave me was
.800 in. It will show J-Dub the radius on the tube that no-one has mentioned to this point.
..............

Gene, I can't recall if there was a difference between FA and FB standpipe height. I know the (brass) dump tube height (in throat of carb) is somewhat critical. In both the FA/FB, the top of the dump tube was moved below the center of the bore to compensate for the rise of the fuel as it entered the air stream. Running the dump tube height at the center of the bore resulted in the bottom cylinder in each cylinder pair running much leaner than the top cylinder. I suppose someone with an original carb setup on an FB, FD, or 44 could provide the correct measurement--assuming that they have the correct carbs.

Yes, it's great to see people kicking in on this project. It's like "Back To The Future" with the volume turned to "11".

Frank V.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Gene,
I seem to recall the following about the mods to the Model N:

The throat was reamed -- FB was larger dia than the FA, but I don't recall diameters.
The high-speed dump tube height was different on FB and FA. I think the FA was 9/16" and the FB was 1/2".

I believe the F44 ran the same carb as the FD, but not positive.
Jim can no doubt give better numbers on this.

Frank V.

If I remember correctly, the A/C venturi was 1 1/16" whereas the B/D was 1 1/8". Not sure on the 2 cylinder 44 but the 6 cylinder 60 c.i.. would, I think, follow suit of the B-D of 1 1/8".

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Gene, I can't recall if there was a difference between FA and FB standpipe height. I know the (brass) dump tube height (in throat of carb) is somewhat critical. In both the FA/FB, the top of the dump tube was moved below the center of the bore to compensate for the rise of the fuel as it entered the air stream. Running the dump tube height at the center of the bore resulted in the bottom cylinder in each cylinder pair running much leaner than the top cylinder. I suppose someone with an original carb setup on an FB, FD, or 44 could provide the correct measurement--assuming that they have the correct carbs.

Yes, it's great to see people kicking in on this project. It's like "Back To The Future" with the volume turned to "11".

Frank V.

Also, on my carbs that Dick O'Dea modified, for mt B's & my C, the back side of the main nozzles/dump tubes were taperd somewhat to elininate the possibility of the rush of air through the venturi didn't cut off the fule flow, or at least not hinder the flow in any way.

[Jeff Lytle]

I'd contact Frank Novotny and ask him to measure what he has. He has A's through 44 F's so he could measure the diamaters and lengths for you.

[Art Kampen]

I have used floatless carbs on our Mod yamatos & 44 merc`s in NBRA racing with great success. Make the stand pipe slightly longer than what you think you need. Easy enough job to cut down if needed than to make a longer one. Make sure your outlet fitting is at least as large as the inlet and the hoses angle downward to the top of the tank. It is really quite simple to do. And will eliminate a lot of problems with those old Carters. If it were me I would consider a newer more modern carb system.:)

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Regards the several comments about using more modern carbs on the Flathead 6:

IMHO when you have an engine with this history of possibly the meanest sound EVER to hit the race course ANYWHERE, and you are at the place where you are in the project that J-Dub has indicated, I think the absolute worst thing you could try to do would be to try to re-invent the wheel.

The floatless Carters were run very successfully on all classes of Flatheads, from A thru F, and with just the information already posted, it looks to be a very minor part of the project (making the Carters work) because of all the technical knowledge from former Flathead owners, drivers, and most of all folks who built the engines and are still available to give technical advise regards them such as Jim Schoch, Dick Austin, Gene East, the two Franks's, etc., etc., etc.

Why take a chance on burning down or sticking an engine that possibly pistons are in very short supply for, when there are still carbs out there to be looked at, copied, and tech advise is very plentiful for.

Unless Wayne Walgrave is still around to help with the carb part of the project, based on the way he always ran, it would seem to be the best way to go

I do not know J-Dub, but it would seem to me that someone who has accomplished what he has in boat racing to this point, would see the wealth of knowledge and offers to help that are out there and available, and the choice would be a no brainer.

And more than anything if the Carter floatless are used, whatever speed was attained would answer the original question more completely, with the engine in the original configuration the way it was run 40 years ago, which is, HOW FAST WILL A FLATHEAD SIX GO?

Whatever decision is made, it certainly is his to make, but for all the above reasons, cost, time wise, experience with them, ease of adjustment etc., the Carter floatless with all the information about them available, just seems to make good sense.

Whatever happens, I hope the project is brought to completion, because as Wayne mentioned, there are lots of folks waiting with much anticipation.

[Bob Rusnak]

I think Rick Fales has his fathers 6 looper. Last conversation was it was in pieces. May try to contact either Rick or Steve to see if the carbs are there and can give you some dimensions for the stand off tube. Bill's was one of the most powerfull if not the most powerfull 6 looper in its time. All the comments in this thread are all accurate. Floatless Carters are almost fool proof. Please keep all of us informed on the progress......Bob N-96

[R Austin]

Remember that there is a difference between and looper carb and a deflector carb. The loop carb has a fix jet drill into the tower.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Remember that there is a difference between and looper carb and a deflector carb. The loop carb has a fix jet drill into the tower.

Dick,

All my Carter float less carbs had adjustable needle valves.

[Tim Weber]

Here's a question.

What type and pitch of prop will this monster pull? Ron?

This is fun to watch.

Tim

[R Austin]

Dick,

All my Carter float less carbs had adjustable needle valves.

John
Yes they all have adjustable needles, however the loop had a jet hole drilled into the tower directly across from the adjustable needle. This kept the adjustment in the 1 1/2 turn range. That jet (.0625) hole was the difference in the fuel demand of the looper to the deflecter.

[Joe J]

Everyone missed one point here. J-Dub has been in regular contact with Rich Fuchslin. Now maybe I am biased here, but I think Rich has a pretty good handle on making a 6 cylinder run, either the Merc or his big looper.

Joe

[Gene East]

Your point is well taken!

However, I don't think anyone who has contributed here would ever discount anything Rich has to say. He can put his record up against anyone and not take a back seat.

We ALL want J-Dub to succeed and he couldn't have a better mentor than Rich Fuchslin!

[Original Looper 1]

Conversion of Float-type Carter N carburetor to Floatless Design for use with Methanol Fuel

(Please note: Always use sufficient protective safety glasses while performing machining operations such as described here.)

The process outlined in this document was created to assist the user in converting a float-type Carter N carburetor to a floatless model for improved metering stability in the high engine speed, high vibration environment of a 6-cylinder loop-charged racing motor built by Quincy Welding. It is assumed that one starts with a float-type carb that already is already set up for use with methanol fuel. However, some key carburetor specs are provided to enable verifying that alcohol compatible calibration parameters are correct. The process outlined herein is based on dimensions from two well-known Quincy Loopers.

These motors were selected to hopefully lend credibility to the process. The first step is to remove the float and all float valve parts. On all carburetors studied, the floor of the fuel bowl was spot-faced only enough to clean up a flat area big enough for the standpipe to seat on. The locations of the standpipe must be selected so the standpipe doesn't interfere with the main well of the carburetor and so the spotface doesn't run deeply into the bowl side radius.

Pictures are provided to indicate locations used for standpipes on a 6-cylinder Looper application.

A tap-drill hole the same size as the standpipe ID was bored through the float bowl floor in the center of the spot-faced area. That hole was then tapped (deeply) up through the bowl bottom with a 1/8 NPT that is square with the mounting surface of the bowl. It should be done on a milling machine or drill press chuck (i.e., NOT aligned by hand but hand rotating
the tool chuck is OK) with the bowl held flat, upside-down on the machine bed plate to assure squareness. The depth of the thread is correct when a standard male 1/8 NPT fitting can be screwed almost all the way into the tapped hole. This provides the maximum possible thread length protruding through on the inside of the bowl. Consideration must also be made to have the hose barb oriented properly when the carburetor is on the motor such that a fuel return line can be installed.

The standpipes are made from 5/8 inch aluminum bar stock of a good alloy like 6061 for ease of tapping and for good thread strength. Squareness of the ends with the centerline of the standpipe is essential so this should be done with the part and tap chucked in a lathe. The center bore end is finished with a 0.1 inch radius at the top, probably to minimize any foaming of the "overflow" alcohol as it spills into the standpipe. The center bore is tapped at the bottom with a 1/8 NPT. Again, squareness of this tapped hole with the bottom face of the standpipe is critical for sealing so do it on a milling machine or drill press with the part clamped securely in a pin vise that can hold the part vertically (i.e., one with a V-notch cut vertically in one of the jaw faces or clamp with a separate V-block). The standpipe is held in place in the float bowl by screwing a 1/8 NPT 90 degree male elbow with a 5/16 inch hose barb into the float bowl and then screwing the standpipe down tightly on the pipe threads that are sticking up through the bottom of the float bowl.

A pair of pliers must be used to grasp the outside of the standpipe to tighten it in place. Special care must be taken so as not to crush or distort the inside diameter of the standpipe during this process. All of the elbows found on these carburetors were plated steel but I am sure that brass fittings would prove suitable. Adjusting the tap depth in the standpipe may be necessary to ensure sufficient thread tightness when the standpipe bottoms on the float bowl. I don't know what sealer was used by Quincy Welding but I would recommend use of a product like "Loctite" to achieve a sealed, permanent assembly. Make sure the parts are cleaned before final assembly with the sealer.

Data from Inspection of Wayne Walgrave's 6-Cylinder F-Looper (XF41)
Built in 1971

Float bowl standpipe dimensions" (measurements on two of the three original Carter N carbs were exactly the same... the third original carb was not measured)

Standpipe ID = 0.3598 inch (23/64 drill)
Standpipe height from top to spotface on carb float bowl floor = 0.785 inch

Carburetor specs:
High Speed Nozzle ID = 0.1695 inch (#16 drill)
Orifice size between HS needle valve and main well = 0.1405 inch (#28 drill)

From Inspection of Jerry Waldman's 4-Cylinder C-Looper (FC84)

Float bowl standpipe dimensions" on top carburetor (bowl is also modified for compatibility with Mercury distributor: bottom carb not measured)

Standpipe ID = 0.3598 inch (23/64 drill)
Standpipe height from top to spotface on carb float bowl floor = 0.788 inch

Carburetor specs:
High Speed Nozzle ID = 0.1695 inch (#16 drill)
Orifice size between HS needle valve and main well = 0.1470 inch (#26 drill)



If you have any questions about this process, please contact Mark Suter at (989) 634-8822 or
mhsuter@invisalink.net.

M. Suter/1-25-2012

************************************


I'd like to add a couple notes of my own.

As Frank Volker mentioned in a previous post, the high speed nozzle, aka dump tube, position in the venturi of a carburetor on a Looper with a Carter carb is indeed highly critical. As Chris and I were finishing up the development of the Loopers and moving on to the next generation Z engine, we experimented considerably with the height adjustment of the nozzle on a Carter carburetor on an A Looper. Remembering now what we attempted to do then, was to find the best position that lead to the most usable and balanced range of fuel distribution with an obviously difficult framework to work within, ie in engineering terms, what some consider to be the torturous path that the diametrically opposed internal reed valve of the Mercury design was at times during it's inconsistent performance at high engine speeds. If it were me, I would only attempt those changes on a dyno, never on a race boat out on the water.

A special thanks to Mark Suter and everyone else that has contributed to this thread.

Regards,

Paul

[Mark Suter]

I measured the distance from the center of the float bowl to the center of the overflow standpipe on the two original Carter carburetors that came off the Walgrave 6-cylinder Looper and both were 3/4 inch.

[J-Dub]

What an honor! And I mean honor! I go to the national meeting in Chicago, come home and have a 28 screws removed from my foot, to finally get a chance to get online to see this UNBELIEVABLE support from all of you racing legends! Wow...Very flattering.

So here is the plan: The path of least resistance as well as past success's is to convert these to floatless carbs. All of these offers to use or copy peoples parts is very much appreciated. However my Dad has a couple floatless carbs to review to build new stems. Also he has been a machinist since he turned the pulleys on the Mayflower and also has built them in the past.

Once we complete this we will get over to Ken's place and piss his neighbors off with the dyno. Then we will run it on Howards 1976 KR Desilva running a 14:15 Komato unit and a 7.5" X 15" four blade, should run about 95mph @ 9000rpm. Then we'll try the hydro.

Thank you all for all your help and support! Now the pressure is on me to get'r done!

J-Dub

[Gene East]

All of us are pulling HARD for you!

Glad you've healed enough to make it through security at the airport

[David Mason]

Ever since someone posted years ago on how fast a Quincy 6 will go... I remember Gene saying nobody has ever really held one on long enough to find out. With the boats a little more advanced today, I think the 130 MPH mark is not out of the question on a hydro. I would LOVE to find out how fast one goes.

And Gene, as a Mod guy, if you showed up and played your 6 Cyl music, I would tune into it no matter where i was standing. There is no finer song than The Singing Six. Remember, a LOT of the mod guys are old Alky guys... ;)

Hope to see you in Quincy this year if the water comes back.

J Dub, keep up your hard work. I have faith in you that it will run.

[BJuby]

Any updates on this? Saw the one video, very excited to see either a flyby video or onboard camera.

[J-Dub]

I was just taking the time to convert the Carters over to floatless last Friday. I just need to pick up some floatbowl gaskets. I will pick those up tomorrow, then back to the dyno. I plan to run the engine one day at a race out here next month on Howard Anderson's KR DeSilva, the likely run a gas 60" deflector the opposite day. So we will have a FRR class a couple times this year in Region 10. I will have my two rigs, Dwight & Zack will field two, and Jason Diamond plans to run his as well. We have a few more guys "On the fence" I am trying to convince to come play.

J-Dub

[Steve Litzell]

I was just taking the time to convert the Carters over to floatless last Friday. I just need to pick up some floatbowl gaskets. I will pick those up tomorrow, then back to the dyno. I plan to run the engine one day at a race out here next month on Howard Anderson's KR DeSilva, the likely run a gas 60" deflector the opposite day. So we will have a FRR class a couple times this year in Region 10. I will have my two rigs, Dwight & Zack will field two, and Jason Diamond plans to run his as well. We have a few more guys "On the fence" I am trying to convince to come play.

J-Dub

Hey J Dub, Tell them sissy's to get off the fence and come out and play, Birds on a fence can be good target practice you know! Steve:eek:

[racingfan1]

Hey J-dub , just wondering if you ever got to run the Looper . I took these pictures in 2008 at DePue but I would love to see the Looper on the back of Howards DeSilva. Just thought I would throw in the picture. of Richs' Merc

[J-Dub]

Ironically I just moved the Looper about 10 minutes ago... I have a plan for it, however there are a few things I gotta do first, like get my Konny back together.

[Steve Litzell]

Ironically I just moved the Looper about 10 minutes ago... I have a plan for it, however there are a few things I gotta do first, like get my Konny back together.

Yea,yea, always a excuse from this guy! Next we have to wait for his hair to dry, Geez;)

[racingfan1]

Hi Steve - So what ever happened to this monster you built and will it ever see the water again ?

[Steve Litzell]

Hi Steve - So what ever happened to this monster you built and will it ever see the water again ?

Yup You will, I have it apart right now and working on the belt slip problem. If time permits i hope this year. Thanks for asking, Steve

[Gene East]

I remember the first time I saw that 8 banger. I said WTF, and I don't usually talk that way. Couldn't help myself, it's a fine looking machine Steve and you will get the kinks ironed out I'm sure.

[J-Dub]

Yup You will, I have it apart right now and working on the belt slip problem. If time permits i hope this year. Thanks for asking, Steve

Yea,yea, always a excuse from this guy! Next we have to wait for his hair to dry, Geez

[Steve Litzell]

Yea,yea, always a excuse from this guy! Next we have to wait for his hair to dry, Geez

Yea but at least I will run mine before you! And you havent seen my hair transplant have you??????? Steve

[J-Dub]

What's the wager?

[racingfan1]

Why don't you both get them running and bring them to DePue for a special stakes race. I am sure we could find a sponser to throw some money in. lol

[Steve Litzell]

What's the wager?

Ok Chump! I'll be there with my bullet how about you????? Guess I will have to buy you dinner as you will be too broke from the drive out here and all the parts that will shake off that Big Black Stack From Fond Du Lac!:D:D:D

[BJuby]

Has this rig got on the water yet? Or did I miss something?

[J-Dub]

55092

Okay! We ran the Looper! However it wasn't terribly fast, but with the help of Rich Fuchslin it lit right off. With Ralph Hildebrand behind the wheel,who was the first Deck Rider in Howards 1976 DeSilva, we drove down the new Devils Lake 1/4 mile straightaway several times in honor of our friend Howard Anderson. The boat is now retired as of this event and will be on display at the Hydroplane and Raceboat Museum in Kent Washington.

[racingfan1]

Glad this piece of racing history is going to a good home. There are many iconic boats that deserve such an ending to their career , if a boat can have a career. How about the K-4 , G-86 , W-3 , H-4 and the R-12 fits right in there , at least in my opinion.

[BJuby]

Any video or photos of it underway?

[MN1]

I have this photo that I think is from the 70's in DePue, IL
Mark N
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/MN392/1100ccDePueIL.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/MN392/media/1100ccDePueIL.jpg.html)

[Master Oil Racing Team]

That is some great news J-Dub. I have a question regarding another momento of Howard's. The Texans of Region 15 had a thing going with Regions 10, 11, and 12. All of us regions flew our state flags in the pits. At various nationals we would challenge one the regions that the total of our drivers points would exceed theirs. The loser had to submit their flag to the winner with all the losing regions driver signatures. At the Pro Nationals in Hinton, West Virginia in 1977 Region 15 beat Region 12. I posted the photo of Howard Anderson and Howard Shaw presenting the Washington flag to Joe Rome, our Texas flag representative (since he lost the first Texas flag to California in 1972). Joe kept this flag until 2007. At the first DePue Reunion Joe gave that Washington flag back to Howard. Seems like Howard mentioned that he was going to put it in that museum. Do you know if it's there? If you want a copy of that autographed photo to hang in the museum, email or pm me with where to send it.

[J-Dub]

Here is a long overdue couple of videos from Devils Lake. However I should start a new thread "How Fast Does A Quincy 6 Sound". We weren't too terribly fast, but it did make the pretty sound!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQw9fiTuEC8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZZwZJgxKLg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=easxI21asDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heefLpevO-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh5ylafDBo

J-Dub

[BJuby]

So what was the deal? Didn't seem too happy in the last video, zero power obviously. The other videos it sounds really really nice :) great job getting it together.

[F-12]

Ok.......to answer the original question....... How fast will a Quincy 6 banger flathead go? When they were right........fast enough to win.

[Steve Litzell]

Best person to ask is Wayne Walgrave, he would have a good idea as would Fales if he were still with us. Steve

[J-Dub]

I believe the time has officially come...
Oroville Kilo Trials, April 2nd & 3rd 2016

60637



J-Dub

[BJuby]

Very excited for you bud. You going to switch from the prop we were using for this kilo run?

[J-Dub]

I got a bigger one than that for this project...:p:cool:

[Master Oil Racing Team]

R 12. That's good. Very best of luck. Heard the water is very cold. Hoping that the pit men never feel the cold because of the sounds and good runs.

[J-Dub]

Thanks Wayne. As you likely have seen the videos, I have the engine running really well. In fact, the last time I ran it, it ran incredibly well! I even took Bob & Brandon Juby for rides!
When does an engine always run best???
So I tore it down for an inspection, and everything looked GREAT! All I have done was have the pistons Molly Coated again.

This is gonna be cool!
J-Dub

[F-12]

Good luck, J-Dub. Show them what a good flathead is capable of.......

[J-Dub]

Will do. Thanks Charley. Fortunately I will have the proper "Adult Supervision" of Rich "Mr. Big Man" Fuchslin close by. Maybe even a spare engine... Because why would a guy NOT have a spare Six Looper, Right? LOL!

J-Dub

[Gene East]

Everyone should have 2 or 3 just laying around.

[Krazy Karl]

Make it run right and last. Don't make me tow you in again. Had a really nice chat though.

krazy karl with the pink boat powered by twin MK55's

[TNT Teen]

Great thread! But I'm dying to know, did that hydro get on the water?

[J-Dub]

Great thread! But I'm dying to know, did that hydro get on the water?
I absolutely 100% PROMISE I will have it at the Oroville Kilos in the Spring. I have the engine running well, and the boat is rigged and wired for the engine. I only need to slightly modify the cockpit by lowering the seat to make it safer (And legal) for the run. I need to B-S an extension to the rear cowling too, so the top carb isn't hanging out in the wind like a Bird Catcher.
Mark your calendars!

[J-Dub]

It's Time! We have been working on this for the past month. We are going testing next weekend (weather permitting).6162061621

[BJuby]

Can't wait to see the speed difference between this and the green DeSilva. Nice that you have a solid baseline. When is it again? April 1st weekend?

[Gene East]

It's Time! We have been working on this for the past month. We are going testing next weekend (weather permitting).6162061621

Go git-em J-Dub!!

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Don't tell us where J-Dub. Just do it and post the video with sound and commentary. There's still too many Obama spies in the EPA, U.S. Fisheries, Interior Department, etc. that may think that what you have launched is considered a weapon of mass destruction.

[1100r]

JDub-Marked the calender and will be there. To close to home to miss this

[J-Dub]

Another solid day of preparation on the Karelsen. I have built new transom hardware for the boat, Engine hangers and such. I built them out of 1" aluminum with three engine locations on 1 1/2" centers. Good thing too, I had to set the engine back to the middle location 1 1/2" back so I didn't have to cut the rear cowling to clear the distributor. With each new engine location I needed to machine new thrust rods (1/2"-13 Grade 8 All thread) to the appropriate lengths for each setting.
We also had to remove the spray shield, where the coil and brain-box are attached, and build yet ANOTHER bracket in the boat to accommodate that... DAMNIT!!! Now we realized that the outer Bowden cable clamp bracket is part of the spray shield too... Don't get me wrong, the spray shied assembly works really well on the runabout but we need to re-invent all this stuff for the hydro...
My buddy Chad soldered up a new wiring harness for the Thunderbolt ignition to run on 24 Volts, he also reinstalled the fuel tank, and then we had to figure out how to make the rear cowling high enough to cover the top carb. So after some screwing around, we decided to simply tip the back of the cowling up 5 1/2" to see how that might work... BINGO! Now I will make some removable triangular shaped pieces to set the cowling at the right height. Originally I was intending to do a removable fiberglass part to extend the top of the cowling. This is going to be waaaaay simpler than making molds to build a part for a one time event, now I will be able to use flatstock materials and it will still carry decent looking lines. Because the boat can't look stupid for this venture!

Another progress report tomorrow!

J-Dub

[racingfan1]

I came across this story in a Propeller magazine that I just received. Just thought I would post it here in honor of the boat. The part in the article is true , I was one of those kids that "worked " for Howard. I got to wash his boats the last two years the Nationals were in DePue in the 70's and will always be partial to the yellow and blue !. The boat has quite a history as it is the first capsule boat ever to win a PRO National!!! Best of luck with it JW.

[1100r]

Very good article Dale thanks for sharing.

[J-Dub]

Another Loooooong day making parts for the hydro. I was able to get the engine angle and height set to where I want it, then I started machining out a new rudder and an adaptor to make my rudder bracket fit the boat properly, and most importantly, SECURELY! I felt like didn't get much done today but a few trips to the hardware store and standing in front of the Bridgeport, all of the sudden it was 7pm and it was time to go home and do a few things there before work tomorrow... I hope to have the rudder done tomorrow and I will post a picture of it.

..... More to come....

[J-Dub]

Getting Closer...

61666

[smittythewelder]

Glad to see Howard, who was generally referred to as "Andy" by his Seattle Outboard friends (basically anybody who had ever talked with him!!), be honored in this way. Since this is an engine thread, a discussion of Andy's later D and F engines should maybe invoke the name of Bill Rankin, an old-timer and old racing buddy of Andy. Rankin was a very smart mechanic, and I had the impression that he was Andy's main engine-builder in the days when Andy was running a loop six. If anyone knows better about this, corrections are always welcome. Andy once told me they were having some problems related to the alky-converted Carter carbs on his six, and since I had a lathe, I said I could turn him some anti-shock mounts for the Carters. A pretty simple project really, but as a young guy doing a job for one of the stars, I was most pleased when Andy later told me that "Rankin was impressed with your carb mounts." Don't know if they ever used them, though. J-Dub??

[1100r]

Smittythewelder- I couldn't agree with you more when you say it's great that Howard (Andy) be honered like this. Was so happy when he set the 1100r record at Yelm when he called me to tell me. J-Dub you can bet Howards is grinning g from ear to ear and waiting to hear and see this rig go just like the rest of us.

[J-Dub]

A few photo updates.
61671
61672616736167461675

[1100r]

Nice job J-Dub. Looking at the boat I seen the tower with the quick change set up. Only seen a few of those. That was done by another great racer.

[J-Dub]

Yup! I have a few of those towers. I have all my boats wired for MSD, Phelon, and the Thunderbolt ignitions. That way all my boats can accommodate the Flathead, Konny, and the 500 Yamato all in the same weekend. As you know, it only takes us about 15 minutes to switch powerheads and units. But it took about 50 hours to make it all work like that...

[1100r]

Oh I know just how fast one can change a power head and a unit. The hardest was the 500 Yamato with the 4 into cables to pull but it wasn't to bad. He made shorter ones for the lay down years ago. I knew of 4 with you having 2 of them on boats, my old boat and Geslers

[J-Dub]

I run a little 3' throttle cable on all my engine that go to (What I call a pendulum) linkage so that all the engines with different cable travel requirements can be quickly disconnected and connected.
I couldn't imagine running something simple... I would lose my mind even worse than I have already!

[1100r]

Lol J-Dub. Yeah the tricky part for ours was the pipe cable but we had the extra cables mounted to a board in the boat. On the water pickup we had a small curved piece that bolted to the bottom of the tower to get good a good flow of water. And the prop that he ran on the hydro and runabout with the Konig was x651. I changed power heads on your 2 boats so many times with Howard and Mark over the years lol.

[Steve Litzell]

You said you had a young girl friend but that one in picture could get you jail time boy!:o:p:):D

[1100r]

Damm Bull Moose your tough today lol. How you been? And take it easy on our friend here lol You flying out to watch Steve??.

[Steve Litzell]

Nope!home. Boy will keep me informed, hope he has had time to practice what I taught him in Michigan, Steve

[1100r]

Lol Steve. Well you toght many of us including me. Never will forget my Shadow Cliff lesson which including Howard and I if you remember that one. I'm looking forward to seeing this run like everyone else is. Steve always great to chat with ya and miss ya as well. J-Dub looking forward to hearing it run but more to see ya as its been to long. Last I believe was when I roped a six for ya at Salt Springs years ago.

[Steve Litzell]

Lol Steve. Well you toght many of us including me. Never will forget my Shadow Cliff lesson which including Howard and I if you remember that one. I'm looking forward to seeing this run like everyone else is. Steve always great to chat with ya and miss ya as well. J-Dub looking forward to hearing it run but more to see ya as its been to long. Last I believe was when I roped a six for ya at Salt Springs years ago.

was that when I ran your C Yamato? if so then yes I remember. You boys thought this ol Southern boy didn't know how to drive,start and go fast, huh... imagine that! :cool: Steve

[racnbns]

Were you giving driving LESSONS?

Bruce

[J-Dub]

Lol Steve. Well you toght many of us including me. Never will forget my Shadow Cliff lesson which including Howard and I if you remember that one. I'm looking forward to seeing this run like everyone else is. Steve always great to chat with ya and miss ya as well. J-Dub looking forward to hearing it run but more to see ya as its been to long. Last I believe was when I roped a six for ya at Salt Springs years ago.

Yup. That was just a 66" Deflector on fuel on a 14' Flat Deck DeSilva. I remember Paul had hurt their Stevens Six in the second heat and I ended up winning the Divisionals that day. Then a few hour after the races, Paul comes back into the pits with their Six Looper in the back of a pickup...
I remember that moment like yesterday... I was sitting on my trailer having a couple "Barley Flavored Soda's" with a few racers, Rucker being one of'm, because that's when Bill pointed out the obvious "You're screwed now Kid!" And the following day, Paul confirmed Bill's "Theory".
Good Times! I really enjoyed racing in Region 11 in those days. I met some great, forever friends in your region!

[1100r]

Yes amigo that was the race. Remember the turn when I scaught the side fin spray off Howards fin in the 1100. Never forgot that talk lol. Best coaching ever. And yes you had that 500 moving of mine. Proud to see you driving my boat there.

[1100r]

Yeah Bruce he gave me lesson 101. What the --- are you passing in the turn for lol. He drove the 500 Yamato I had and I drove the 1100 wit my rider. He watched and then we'll the rest was the best friendship which it was anyway and fever greatful

[racingfan1]

Looking forward to seeing the video when it runs. I have always thought - with all due respect to Sean , Doug
and Eddie - when Mark was behind the wheel of this boat there was none better , just one man's opinion.

[1100r]

When I see Bogus as we call Mark I will tell him as he lives just a hop skip and jump from me. And you named some awesome drivers. And I won't miss this run for nothing J-Dub

[Al Lang]

When I see Bogus as we call Mark I will tell him as he lives just a hop skip and jump from me. And you named some a few awesome drivers. And I won't miss this run for nothing J-Dub

I can say that all of us will be waiting for the video. All the best.

[J-Dub]

When I see Bogus as we call Mark I will tell him as he lives just a hop skip and jump from me. And you named some awesome drivers. And I won't miss this run for nothing J-Dub

Have Mark meet me at the Forebay on Friday... I would be HONORED to have him run it with the Konig or the Yamato. It'll all be in the trailer!
.....Because the selfish bastard I am.... I am the only one running the Looper on this setup.....

[1100r]

Well I will let him know but he and I both left racing in 2002 to have neck surgeries. Not sure if he would be up for that but will let him answer that

[Ron Hill]

Is this correct? What classes are schedule for kilos? Are there 1/4 mile records too?

[J-Dub]

Both Kilo & 1/4's.
https://www.apba.org/races/53rd-annual-region-11-bud-david-time-trials-bill-boyes-and-frank-banducci-memorial-8508

[BJuby]

JW wanted me to update everyone about the Kilo's today. Unfortunately they were blown out. He says they will hopefully get a chance tomorrow. More info to follow tomorrow. Fingers crossed!