Coolest racing engine of all time???

[Mark75H]

What is your favorite? Here's mine:

(Still looking for one of these ugly lower units for it or a short 13½" tower to get in trade for the long 16")

[Dr. Thunder]

50's HRA Konig 250 ... today it would have to be the Rossi 125.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

I always liked the 500 cc 4 carb Konigs with the short megaphones. The 6 cylinder Quincy flatheads had the best sound AND looked good.

[Rusrog]

1750XS\T-3's.... Great looking motors and for the day were pretty hard to beat...

Also the later 2.4 Oval port EFI's.... Late 80's versions...

Russ

[Jeff Akers]

A Lon Stevens six cylinder merc. God they sounded good !
When I was a kid I used to play in the propwash as they fired them off .Man the feel, the sound , the smell, nuthin like it!!!! :D

Hmm, I wonder if thats wy I don't hear so well anymore ?? :eek:

[Jeff Lytle]

Crescent 500cc alky, or gas Super C.........nuthin' quite like them.

[stephensmithracinguk]

Hi saw the wizard at London Docks UK when Johnny Sanders raced it before it ripped the transom off, boy did it sound good, shame it did'nt race against the OMC V8s

[Jengle37]

I know this is a mostly outboard website, but being an inboard fanatic I'd have to say the Merlin is the coolest racing engine of all time by a long shot, followed by the V12 Jag that was in Mitch Lemke's ET79.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Jeff--Was the Lon Stevens Merc with the six pipes or the right side or a Merc Quincy flathead like this? You know Jeff, I swear when I started scanning this photo I had the brief smell of that fuel blend from Californie (forgot the name) that had something extra that made it smell different from regular castor oil/methanol blend.

[Jeff Akers]

Jeff--Was the Lon Stevens Merc with the six pipes or the right side or a Merc Quincy flathead like this? You know Jeff, I swear when I started scanning this photo I had the brief smell of that fuel blend from Californie (forgot the name) that had something extra that made it smell different from regular castor oil/methanol blend.

Wayne, I cant remember if they had six pipes or three ? but it wasnt the flathead , I would have rememberd that thing !

The one in the pic I belive is a stevens (could be rong). this six carb engine is still racing today :D :cool:

And oh yes that smell was something else

[Joe J]

Jeff:

Where did you take the picture of the Fuchslin's 6? I am guessing Shadow Cliffs last October?????

My vote for the coolest engine would have to be a 1250BP Stacker. My dad had one around 1970-71, and I can still remember the sound it made. But I would say the Stevens 6 sounds better.

The OMC rotary would be second on my list.

Joe

[Jeff Akers]

Joe,
Shadow Cliffs--2002 ;)

[smittythewelder]

Jeff, I see you have a Konig deflector B from the '50s; that and the three-cylinder C were semi-cool engines, too . . . .

For coolest stock outboard, I'll nominate the converted 20-H.

For coolest alky outboard, Jim Hallum's 4-carb Anzani with Merc SS ignition, throttle-controlled high-speed needle, ram's-horn bounce pipes, and homemade cut-out valves ahead of the pipes for low-rpm power. A photo of an early version of the 4-carb Anzani can be seen on that Charlie Williams' site.

For coolest inboard engine, it's hard to top the big blown Hemis, but I'll go with the little Daimler sportscar engine, a tiny V-8 hemi that somebody tried in a 150 hydro a long time ago.

Unlimited engine, either the Mercedes-Benz that the Coral Reef crew fought with for a while, or the Gale's gigantic V-16 Packard, were very cool, but in the end the best engines were the Budweiser's Griffons, as developed by Dave Culley.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

What are these engines?

[Jeff Lytle]

Top to bottom:

Anzani with pipes (wunder how it worked)
Rolls Griffon V-12 from the Bud
Rolls Merlin V-12 from Savair's Probe
Allison--turbocharged.....Alot of teams used this powerplant in the pre-turbine days. Eg: Miss Madison, Miss U.S., Squire Shop etc.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Great work Jeff. Have to find results & see how Ron Anderson did. Can't remember of the top of my head (Alexandria 1973)

[smittythewelder]

As to how the 4-carb Anzani worked, consider that Gerry Walin was running 100mph kilos (106, one-way, the last year he tried) at a time when D hydros had yet to go that fast. The last iteration of the Seattle-style Anzanis were reliable, too; Walin got many races out of his. Anderson had good ones, too.

[Jeff Lytle]

I left this pic big so you could see all the details on this incredible engine. Compliments of Charlie Williams and his http://www.outboardracing.com

[Jeff Lytle]

Another Anzani:

[Jeff Lytle]

For you C Service and PR, SR buffs, Yes......That is a Vacturi carb you see.

[smittythewelder]

The pix above, an outboard and three unlimiteds, are one of Ron Anderson's Anzanis on Don's DeSilva, a Merlin, and two Allisons.

Jeff, the difference in the mounting brackets of the megaphones on the two Anzanis you show tells me that the first is a Seattle-style engine (I think Sutter came up with those brackets in the early '60s) and the second is a Tenny-style motor.

[smittythewelder]

Hey, there's another keeno engine that somebody has a picture of, I hope, and that is a Harrison 4-carb A or B with the cast megaphones which wrapped down alongside the towerhousing before pointing aft. They had a flange for mounting accessory baffle-cones, which turned the megaphones into bounce-pipes (okay, expansion chambers). The Harrisons turned out a lot of neat stuff in the '60s; Kay came out to Yelm in about 1966 and set a B Hydro record, and maybe B Runabout, too.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Here is one of Billy Seebold's Merc's from 1973

[Master Oil Racing Team]

This powerplant is Bob Hering's--1979

[Jeff Akers]

I allways liked this one too. Very impresive work ! :cool:

[spn#43]

;) :) //////////

[Bob Rusnak]

Found this photo from the 1972 Pro Nationals in Depue. Bill Fales with his potent Fales/Langdon Looper setting up his rig before the first heat. This was some impressive engine.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Some real facinating to even downright scary, these British made twins that came in 250, 322 and 350 CC versions, initially as stock outboard racers in Britan were imported by Bill Tenney back in the 1960s, converted to Alky and run as A and B Alkys both in the USA and in Canada with some real startling results. Back around 1980 the B Alky record was reset to about 101 miles per hour with some runs to 103 and even to 107 miles per hour where the engine worked fine but the raceboats became the scary item that could no longer contain the engine.

Since I was a teen running a Ogier and Merc KG9 back in the later 1960s, these Anzani engines like their competitors as in the Quincy Flatheads and Konigs were just like any other Alky to this teenager.....impossible financially plus there was word that you had to be "a somebody" in outboard racing to even get one and that was pricey those days in relation to Merc KG9s or Merc 40Hs for a student like myself where even a Merc 30H and 55H hurt your pocketbooks until you got educated and have a regular job! In any case by the 1980s getting some of these miraculous Anzanis, I dreamed of as a teenager in the 1960s became possible just before 1980 and then by some luck more so in the 1990s when they had pretty much disappeared from race courses. When Bill Tenney passed away I inherited the remaining engines and parts stock to build another 5 engines, 1 brand new one as a B-Stock Racer and 5 more as A, B and twin block versions of a C or D. The pictures will give you some idea of the engines already built as well as the stock of parts (not all shown) to build a lot more.

Enjoy some of the pictures that I have in the garage, the B and the parts and in my rec-room sharing space with Quincy Flathead class F (F-18). I will put some more updates in soon as the Anzani twin block (4 cylinders) is coming close to final assembly. :)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

A Second Batch Of Pictures Of Anzanis

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

More British Anzani pictures to enjoy.

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

This is what you get in the days of film cameras and the scanning technology of those days. Pretty primative comparing to today's digital technologies. Enjoy the pictures, that is about the best you can ever see them. :)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

When Bill Tenney spec'd the Anzanis out originally 1960s in their Alky development, a single Vacturi carb you would find of OMC C-Service engines were suitablely barrel resized and plus used with anywhere on the A to B, from 1 to 3 DelOrto remote fuel bowls were used above the carb to feed the gravity float bowl of the carb unchanged from its original form. This was found to be combersome and rather leaky and OMC fuel pumps as those found on 30 to 40 or more horsepower units were adapted to a floatless made Vacturi carb where the pump would fill the fuel bowl that would then spill over and return to the fuel tank in a constant pumped fuel loop. As the Hallum/Anderson engines were developed with the addition to self pumping Tillotson HL series floatless/bowless carbs addtional lines from the main fuel feed line allowed these HLs to suck up their own constant supply of methanol/nitro based fuels. How much nitromethane loading could these cast iron loopers withstand? Many were run from 10% up to and over 40% of the fuel could be the nitromethane component. How much horsepower? Bill Tenney and his engineers were able to get 0ver 375 horsepower per liter of displacement out of a 250 Anzani and from the 322 to 350 CC units came 450 to 475 horsepower per liter of disaplacement on the dynomometers they used. Not bad considering they today are considered primative loopers, but, the engineers claimed without the cast iron block there was no way they could achieve that! They even did not have the expansion chamber exhausts, slide carbs and ignitions we today that we take for granted. Scary EH? LOL! ;)

[N-77 Two]

Take a look at the back of the boat. There were two tanks custom made for that boat that actually held around 6 gallons of methanol. The motor drank fuel. In fact this was one of the first races that the "new" drive tube that Elli Langdon made for my dad. The lower two cylinders were actually below the transom of the boat, trying to lower the CG of the motor to make the boat steer thru the corners even better. This motor was definately a screamer. Thanks for the memories. :)

[Mike Schmidt]

This shot should go under "Coolest Engine of All Times". It has my vote.
I had the honor of riding deck in this beast, racing against it and even working on parts of it. This thing was ultra trick for its day. Still trick today 30 something years later. I never met Elli, but have the utmost respect for his work. His work was the same caliber as Walt, Harry and Tom. I did some work on the Konig overdrive unit that he had built for this motor after he had passed away. He had notes etched on the inside of the gear case telling what size shim went where. It was neat, kind of like he was helping.....Bill was a great driver in any boat, but this was his real love.

Hope you guys have this thing on display at Powermist.

Michael D-1

[Tomtall]

John - Very Very cool stuff and history leason! Thanks :)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

The one bad thing about all this stuff was, when it was being run and your a pitman and later a driver the last thing you had on your mind was to take pictures of it all and lots of them. I took some but another racer borrowed the album and claims to have lost it when he and his wife split!

They were quite the engine that seemed to far surpass what their objective seemed to have been as a gasoline fueled stocker in the hands of American engineers like Tenney, Hallum, Anderson. others and the racers that developed drove them as Alky racers. I can remember them just blasting around the race courses as if it was yesterday. They were that remarkable. Back then I remember them smoking Quincy padded deflectors as well as Flathead Loopers and Konigs in some cases twice the displacement of the Anzanis. Anzanis major problems was perennialy ignition, that "Prince of Darkness" Lucas magneto and loading up and stalling before they could clean out to run. At times a bottom pipe would swallow enough water to wet down that cylinder so the practice was to get her on plane fast to get the ramfeed waterpickup going and almost go over the cockpit cowl to the nose to do so and coming in real fast, cutting the engine and getting up front fast to stop water coming up that bottom pipe.

There must be a load of 8 millimeter movie film and Kodak Brownie shots of this stuff, only where? :)

[Dr. Thunder]

...There must be a load of 8 millimeter movie film and Kodak Brownie shots of this stuff, only where? :)

Ron Andersons dad Rennie was a frequent visitor in the pits. Understood he was a decent photographer ... always had a camera around his neck or in hand ... I've always wanted to see what he developed ... I wonder if ...

[N-77 Two]

Thank You Mike for the kind words about my dad. You did a lot of work for ALL of us at Power-Mist during the 80's. It was to bad you never had a chance to meet Elli, he was a class act all the way.

One day Dad and I skipped work to go to Elli's to finish working on the Konig D my dad had. Dad and I were working on making all the pistons equal weight when my dad said everything was "close enough" and said he was going to do something else. Elli came over and looked at the numbers Dad had written on the top of the pistons and asked Dad and I to leave and go get lunch. So we did. When returning with lunch, Dad looked at the pistons, and all the numbers had changed and they were all the same. Elli took one look at Dad and said, "nothing leaves my shop until it is perfect, now the pistons are perfect." Elli did the pistons over and they were perfect. He was a great and gifted man. I am glad to have known him and glad to have taken him to the last race he went to, Soddy Daisy, TN for the Mod Nationals. What a blast.

After Dad broke his back going for the NOA 1100R Kilo record, which he was recorded going thru the trap at over 107mph the first way, and blew it over going back the other. Elli totally rebuilt that Looper and had it ready for dad for the race that you see in the picture above. Many people do not remember that my Dad had a severely broken back at that National, it was only 12 weeks after the accident. Bill and Ralph DeSilva built a brand new boat, also.

Again, thanks for the nice words about Dad. It was fun to race with you in the 80's, and it was fun to watch you deckride with Dad. It was also fun to watch you drive the 6-cylinder Yamaha motor we have on the 13.6 boat at Hartford that one day. When that motor finally got on pipe, you had a handfull with it. You did a good job that day until the lower unit broke. In fact that motor only was driven by a handfull of people and you should feel honored to have driven that. As far as deckriders go, you are one of only a handfull of people to do that also. Of course, Dick Scopinich, Howie Pickerell, Jay Gignac, Debbie McMahon and Yourself are the only ones to have taken a ride in that beast of a motor.

Thanks. Remember, Lets put Bills Fales in the APBA HALL OF FAME!!! :)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I am confused a bit from reading about Bill Fale's Looper 6 cylinder and F runabout?? Was it a Quincy 6 Flathead Looper (because the pipes and engine look similar) or was it a hybrid of some kind as racers and their engineers are something else marvelous in Alky racing, meaning anything is possible and is done or can be done???? End my confusion please? :)

[Mike Schmidt]

The motor in the photo from 1972 at Depue on the previous page is his six cylinder Quincy Looper. From the outside it looked like a real clean Quincy. Bill and Ellie put a ton of time into developing it on the dyno and on the race course. Porting, balancing, pistons, reeds and so on. Bill was one of, if not the best on fuel. The down housing they built was as short as you could get a six. They had to run a dump tank for the bottom carb, as it was below the transom. They had a fuel pump to pull out of the dump tank, back to the fuel tank for the floatless carbs.

Bill raced 4 cylinder OMC "pumpers", six cylinder Mercs, big block Konigs and the Looper in FRR, now called 1100CCR. Bill also had a six cylinder Yamaha based "rotary". Bruce Nicholson designed and built it. I tested it for Bill, until we ran out of Konig units. After ventilating three new 15-16 units in an afternoon, the motor went back to his shop.

Hope this helps.

Michael D-1

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

Thanks for the clarification as there seems to be all kinds of engines being featured here more and more so. I keep hearing about Parker Loopers and there were other custom builds from time to time.

I was a teenager when I saw the transition from the Quincy Merc padded block and 3rd port deflectors to the Quincy Flatheads. It was something else to see the Quincy Flathead 4 banger 44s versus the Flathead sixes dueling away on the race course. The 4 bangers would initially out accellerate the 6 bangers but at the end of the longer straight and that would repeat itself over and over again. The 4 and 6 cylinder deflectors were pretty much snarling amongst themselves comparing to the Flathead show going on out front.

The one thing that was very apparent was the difference in terms of how much easier the Flatheads started with their L type piston ring technolgy in comparison to the convention rings used on padded block deflectors. I can't remember ever seeing anyone enduring 6 repeat startup pulls on those high compression deflectors, the starters all looked like they were about to have coronaries, one pulled cylinder at a time. I am still amazed at how Merc's blind hole bores with Quincy pads and all that welding them in withstood that kind of compression and heat so well in a deflector engine. It seems that most of the D-Mods, FE and SE Modified gassers of today are doing what the Quincy Flatheads and Quincy Merc deflectors were doing in the later 1960s and 70s??? now.

[Ray Lumpkin]

I raced the T 3 (1750) in the 1980s. Great engine!!
Ray

[aero]

the carb version of omc's f1 v8.

[Lights]

In you first picture on the first page of this thread. What was the make of the motor on the right. My dad had one when I was young.

Litghts

[Mark75H]

Its a König

[Lights]

Thanks Mark75H. I think My dad gave it to Kenny Homburg (sp?) about 15 years ago. I believe he still has it.

Lights

[Fast Fred]

OMC FR-19s aka "The Mod 50" :eek:

[Fast Fred]

was it 10" mid? ware did you see one? did you see the foot? what foot was it?
that sounds cool, ever try that plate? :cool:

[Fast Fred]

wow , thought I was buildin the only one. after takin a long look at the port hights of the CC, it seemed to me that the hights are way way up thare,
on my hull it would prob' get on plane, but then she'd bog down, it would never
ring it, what was the finish on the FT this is what mine looks like

[Fast Fred]

I did bag the Mod 50 exhaust plates, new ones, tricked them out to fit the case with the rib still in place, to fit the exhaust block above. open that box. :cool:

[onwatermarineservices]

Hello Fred,
The FT was painted white with blue writing, it had a different adapter plate to the standard one in your pic to fit the wider exhaust plates, also did not have the exhaust relief holes in the gearcase above the cav plate, they dumped all engine water outside the exhaust housing. Gear ratio was same as for 15' stinger smal box. Usually ran a 21" or 23" cleaver.
There would be some pics around of one of these somewhere , but will take some chasing up. I'll ask around and see what I can find.
In competition it went like this in even steps; 75 stinger - 650XS Merc - FT.

[Fast Fred]

couldn't find the mod50 adapter plate, but i did find the exhaust plates, just tricked up that adapter. :cool:

[onwatermarineservices]

Well guys beat this. There is a guy in Aus by the name of Bert Hines who dry sumped a 350 chev and mounted it on an O/B leg. He ran it on Renato Molinari's old SAFFA boat, it went like the clappers but didn't corner too well (top heavy). Unfortunately I don't have pics but this was a work of art.
Ron you know Bert, did he ever send you a pics

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

I can remember and issue of HOT ROD Magazine back in the late 1960s where a enthusiast mounted a GM flat 6 cylinder out of a Corvair (Yes, the one Nader killed, unsafe at any speed) mounted it on a racing tower and got 90 miles per hour out of it on some big hydro. The magazine had a picture of it running but there was no comment about it going around a corner, so maybe Hot Rod Magazine avoided that area of interest. Heavy? You bet! :)

[Mark75H]

John, I'm pretty sure it was a drag racer that did not need to turn :)

I think it held an outboard drag speed record for a while in it's day ;)

[lilabner]

I've got an 8mm movie of it running...1967 at Nat Drags in Perris

[Ray Lumpkin]

Wow!! I done a lot of outboard racing, seen a lot of outboards, but nothing even close to this. What is or what was it.
Ray

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

That is that crazy General Motors Covair flat 6 cylinder air cooled engine "dry sumped" and stood on a racing tower back in the later 1960s I yakked about in a previous post out of Hot Rod magazine story and picts. It was one heavy engine. Water cooling was not a problem and it needed none! Anyone here got a Porche flat 6 turbocharged engine they want to try doing that instead of the Corvair??? ;)

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

For those too lil at the time as to what a GM/Chevy Corvair looked like, there is a red one parked to the right of the Corvair powered outboard race engine in the background of the picture. Look Ma! No Rad! A lot of locals here ditched their air cooled engines, flipped the transaxle/transmission around and mounted a 305 to 350 Chevys back in them where the rear seat used to be and did a nice job of hiding the radiator so as to conceal it from others at the lights to make it a sleeper hot rod. I owned a later model Corsa turbo, but it didn't last but as again I should have kep it as it is a collector car today. :)

[lilabner]

Keep your Porsche on a freshwater lake..Some of them have a lot of magnesium parts..remember the case stuffers on an early OMC ? I think they were bolted to the crank and made quite a mess when they submerged in So Fla..

[jphii1]

If that picture didn't get the crazy ideas going in my head, nothing will! Now you've got me thinking what air cooled engines would work as an outboard, and what would sound the coolest. My wife is going to be very, very mad at you!!

[Mark75H]

The Paramore brothers have already been turning junk snowmobile motors into budget priced 350 alky motors

[lilabner]

sounds like somebody needs to take a Compose and chill out..wine works too...

[lilabner]

The really neat fake out was the kit with an insert that looked like luggage and junk made of molded fiberglass that fit over the engine in the back seat...

[Master Oil Racing Team]

.....but I think it's a 250cc Honda. My Dad and his partner had an OMC & Honda dealership 1968 to 1975, and around 73 or 74? Honda came out with a new engine that really screamed. It did well in motorcycle racing and I think this may be one that Walt Blankenstein rigged up for us. I don't remember much about it. These photos were from DePue 1974. My best recollection is that we were never able to get it on a plane. And for some reason we never tested it again. I think when my Dad sent it to Walt to convert it to outboard capability, that this motor must have been the two packages Walt had "wired" to see if Charley Bradley was snooping. (see and earlier post)

[F-12]

That's the engine, Wayne! I remember it like it was yesterday. Walt was all fired up about getting this one running for your Dad and REALLY wanted to give you a motor that would scream. I was supposed to be there with Walt but I think I got married around the time he left for this race. I invited him and he thought he would enjoy the races more.................I would have, too. How did this one turn out? Walt never brought me up to speed as far as what he found out. I built part of it and he was very PO'ed I didn't come and help. Thanks for the great pics, as usual..................

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

There was a rumour back when OMC like Mercury were both building snowmobiles that some OMC freak was mounting an OMC snowmo rotary lobe engine on a racing tower for some racing hydro project. It was a rumour back then on the early 1980s, does anyone know if that thing ever got built? A rotary outboard racing engine??? That would have sure been different! A sewing machine ouffing popps at high speed outa what kind of pipe?? :confused:

[Mark75H]

OMC never ran a sno-mo motor on a racer, but there was a prototype of a sno-mo motor fitted to a production tower & lower unit in the 80's ....

BUT

back in '73 OMC raced a full blown racing rotary outboard (until it was basically banned and broke enough transoms to make them think better of it)

[F-12]

Look closely at the picture of Charlie Strang............This is the face of someone that always had a trick or two up his sleeve. I always enjoyed being around him and very much benefitted from anything that he had to say. I could never get over the grin...........To me, it always said "Sure...we're fast now, but wait until next week..............."

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Charlie Strang always had that smile. He also took a lot of pictures. I had a Mazda RX-2 with a rotary. Great car. I overhauled the engine in 1975 and found it easy to work on. The article is from Motorsport June 1973.

BTW Charley-Never tested that engine again. Don't know what happened to it.

[F-12]

I'm surprised it took so long to need a rebuild on the rotary engine in the Mazda. The dusty roads you use to drive it on would wear out a normal engine in half the time. I remember you telling me how much you liked it.
I'm sorry you didn't get to play with the motor Walt built for your Dad any more. Walt was really sure it would be a good one. If you come across any more pics of it, post them if you have time. Thanks..........

[smittythewelder]

There is a book out with pictures of the gorgeous Soriano and Lesco blown flat-six outboards built by the Italians in the Fifties. Exquisite craftsmanship from rope plate to skeg. See "A Century of Outboard Racing," by Kevin Desmond. I'm going to post a separate thread with information on this and another book, incl. where to find them.

[Cameraboy]

If remember right, the Paramore brothers have a Wankel that they run now and again. I think they ran it last year at Cullaby. The sucker is LOUD. Maybe I've got a picture, or I can send John over to share.

They also have been experimenting with Rotax and Polaris snowmobile powerheads for a few years in 350cc Hydro. Did pretty well last season by keeping the things running.

[Fast Fred]

thare is a snowmo moda on a 15" mid on an SLT, think you would better off with a jet ski moda, the snowmo is vary narrow in power band on the water:cool:

[will350]

The Rotax pushed my "barn door " D boat to 94.1 GPS on pump gas at Cullaby a couple years ago . The Polaris ( with a clutch ) pushed John's red barn door D boat over 80 at Lawrence last year on pump gas . The Wankle was only disapointing because it's so restricted portwise , it won't turn up .
The Yamaha 250 at the end of R&D was real close to a good C stock .
Haven't had the 1/2 Polaris on a boat but it will turn 7500+ in the tank with my test wheel . Narrow power band ? Sure , just means you have to drive like you mean it . ( don't let it fall off the pipe! ) Tools required - skil saw , drill press , file , taps , common sense and some patience . Will

[will350]

Dead stock porting and carbs , free air Rv TnT pipes . Will

[John (Taylor) Gabrowski]

You hear the rumours and than you see the products of a good imagination come to fruitition! Wow!!! Bravo! Bravo! From rotary to water cooled two stroke to air/fan cooled two stroke. You hear about this stuff and that it motors like crazy too. Well you see it! You don't necessarily need a Rossi, VRP, MacArelli, Konig or Yamato. See your local insurance salvage auctions and bid on insurance salvage jobs on every manner of snowmo sled or small two stroke bike that falls within Alky CC displacement limits, still use gasoline even and go like blazes! Your local older 2 stroke salvage yards could be equally productive too! Here is where need is the mother of invention and those mothers sure can move by all accounts! Bravo guys! Your results are impressive and the tools and patience are simple products of human nature. ;)

This is what outboard racing can truly be about too! :)

[Tomtall]

Waynn Baldwin posted this in one of his threads. Can someone elaborate about this engine. Wild looking!:cool:

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Waynn Baldwin posted this in one of his threads. Can someone elaborate about this engine. Wild looking!:cool:
It looks like two opposed 4 cylinder Yamato's one on top of the other. Two real clues, one the carbs with direct induction, no rotary valves, and Jim McKean standing to the left of the engine. Also, Howard Andy Anderson in the white T-Shirt looking on in the background.

[CHIN-CHIN1110]

Hi All
I Had The Honor To Ride Deck With Bill When He Set Record Over 100mph I Think It Was Norris Town Pa. I Remember We Went Over 102mph Into The Wind And Bill Was Concerned About Down Wind Run And Asked Me To Get Back As Far As I Could.he Pushed Me Back With His Foot And Held Me There Against Transom. I Finally Sat On Rear Deck And Held Onto Steering Bar.well He Set Record. After We Went Thru Traps, Bill Turned Around And Said He Could No Longer Find Me With His Foot,and Thought I Fall Out The Back. I Thanked Him For Not Stopping.but I Told Him I Still Loved Him. Honord Nick Cerino

[Mark75H]

Some people like the 1967 OMC racers. Here is an ad from June 1967 and a close up of the cowl emblem

[Ray Lumpkin]

Some people like Mercurys, like the 125 Super BP.

[corin_huke]

Have any of you guys (and girls) photos of the Yamato 500cc engines that were used by Neil LaRose and others in the pro class back in the 1990s?

The racing engines (as opposed to the stock 80s, 102s, 302s) never took off here in Europe, so for many of us they remain a mystery.

It will be interesting to see how the Yamato 500cc engine compares to the Rossi and VRPs engines of today, as a lot of the design features, 4 exhausts, reed valves, etc, I'm sure can trace their origins back to the Yamato

Any information you can provide for this (and the other Yamato racing engines) would be much appreciated

BTW does anyone race the Yamato engines in the pro class these days?

[Mark75H]

You mean something like this?

[Dan M]

Corin,

I know that Sean McKean still runs his Yamato in 500 and 700. Rex Hall still has a 700 in his stable. They may be losing a little to the new Rossi's and VRP's. We'll try to get some more pics this season.

Dan:D

[David Weaver]

These two engines are still very competitive. Paul Fuchslins 350cc and 500cc runabouts. Both are powered by 4 cylider Yamato's with 4 pipes and 4 carbs. Photo's by Teri Ziemer.

[smittythewelder]

Hello, Corin Huke,
The Yamato 350/500 engines started, I believe, with a company named Fuji which built a 322cc opposed four "inspired" by the early Konig piston-port fours of the mid-'60s. Gerry "Fantum" Walin had been bumping up the APBA B Outboard Hydro kilo record with his Jim Hallum-built Anzanis, reaching 90mph somewhere between 1968 and 1970. In the fall of 1970, the Japanese moved the record up to 97mph with one of the Fujis. Walin/Hallum took it back again a year or two later with the 100mph runs (which I regard as a milestone in outboard racing, an amazing feat for a little 2-cylinder B in the days when the C and D hydros had not gone that fast).

About 1976, Jim McKean began importing the Yamatos. The early engines could be considered analogous to an obsolete piston-port Konig, with low-performance pipes and battery-and-points ignition, but done with superior materials, castings and machine work. Parts were much cheaper than Konig's, McKean's crowd (esp. Denny Henderson) won some races, and the motors caught on quickly. Again, their main advantages over Konigs weren't in out-of-the-box power, but in craftsmanship and pricing.
The factory kept tweaking and gradually improving the fours over the years (and added an opposed-twin 250 to the line-up), and out-of-the-box performance went up. Over and over, in motor-racing of all kinds, an engine which has recieved a lot of careful tuning and upgrading will beat another engine which has more potential but has had less development. For a look at this principle in action, go to a sports-car club race and watch the old Mini-Coopers; they have a laughably crude engine, but one that has had fifty years of racing development, and they really go!!

[RichardKCMo]

Hello, Corin Huke,
The Yamato 350/500 engines started, I believe, with a company named Fuji which built a 322cc opposed four "inspired" by the early Konig piston-port fours of the mid-'60s. Gerry "Fantum" Walin had been bumping up the APBA B Outboard Hydro kilo record with his Jim Hallum-built Anzanis, reaching 90mph somewhere between 1968 and 1970. In the fall of 1970, the Japanese moved the record up to 97mph with one of the Fujis. Walin/Hallum took it back again a year or two later with the 100mph runs (which I regard as a milestone in outboard racing, an amazing feat for a little 2-cylinder B in the days when the C and D hydros had not gone that fast).

About 1976, Jim McKean began importing the Yamatos. The early engines could be considered analogous to an obsolete piston-port Konig, with low-performance pipes and battery-and-points ignition, but done with superior materials, castings and machine work. Parts were much cheaper than Konig's, McKean's crowd (esp. Denny Henderson) won some races, and the motors caught on quickly. Again, their main advantages over Konigs weren't in out-of-the-box power, but in craftsmanship and pricing.
The factory kept tweaking and gradually improving the fours over the years (and added an opposed-twin 250 to the line-up), and out-of-the-box performance went up. Over and over, in motor-racing of all kinds, an engine which has recieved a lot of careful tuning and upgrading will beat another engine which has more potential but has had less development. For a look at this principle in action, go to a sports-car club race and watch the old Mini-Coopers; they have a laughably crude engine, but one that has had fifty years of racing development, and they really go!!

Most are chinese phonys aren't they? Superioraty seems to have been given away , under shrewed planning.
Where oh where has nationalism gone? Me thinks it had to do with Teachers Unions, and lack of standards and expectations.
OOPs.
Richard F.

[Mark75H]

Smitty is right, Fuji was the predecessor of Yamato alky motors. When Fuji set a record in alky and submitted a bid for paramutual racing motors in Japan, Yamato bought them out. At the same time Yamato had been developing their own alky motor, but these were apparently dropped when they acquired the Fuji designs.

[Tomtall]

A record attempt of the Scott Atwater "Square Six" very cutting edge for its day. Article Courtisy of "Boat Sport Magazine" web site and "Ed Hatch".
http://boatsport.org/

Thread - http://boatsport.org/BSV67/p21.jpg and http://boatsport.org/BSV67/p22.jpg

[Fast Fred]

:cool: http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/364/tmpphpochoveqo4.th.jpg (http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tmpphpochoveqo4.jpg)

[Ray Lumpkin]

The 1750XS was the best large race engine I every had. It was trouble free and great performance. Ran SST120 all season and just changed plugs. Its in my picture here with the red & blue tunnel.

[brichter]

I like the old OMC V4 race motors the best.....GTs, KCs and KRs.
Dad raced them for 20 years.
This one is still like new! Part of a private collection.
Had to take some pics.

[Roy Hodges]

Jeff--Was the Lon Stevens Merc with the six pipes or the right side or a Merc Quincy flathead like this? You know Jeff, I swear when I started scanning this photo I had the brief smell of that fuel blend from Californie (forgot the name) that had something extra that made it smell different from regular castor oil/methanol blend.
6 pipes=quincy looper. the 6 carb engine was (is ) a stevens merc. That fuel you smelled was probably "blenzall Gold Label. " it had in it (each can 15&3/4OZ. ) 5 OUNCES OF CASTOROIL & NITRO PROPANE &ISOPROPANOL. tHE BLENZALL PEOPLE CALLED THE NITRO "OIL OF MERBANE". I still have a un opened can Lon gave me 30 plus years ago. Lon used to sell the Blenzall products &Baker's racing Castor

[Roy Hodges]

a motorcycle magazine (Dirt Bike-I think) way back, tested some oils & power boosters , on a 2 stroke 250 single , and found that the Blenzall boosted it's power output by 15 % .......P S, you add one can to one gallon of gas (or alky)

[Mark75H]

I looked up "oil of merbane" all the results say it is nitrobenzene, very toxic stuff but a very potent power increaser. Nitropropane is a another oxidizer/power increaser (not as toxic as nitrobenzene, but almost nothing is), isopropanol is rubbing alcohol, which was probably included to keep all the weird ingredients mixed together

[Roy Hodges]

I looked up "oil of merbane" all the results say it is nitrobenzene, very toxic stuff but a very potent power increaser. Nitropropane is a another oxidizer/power increaser (not as toxic as nitrobenzene, but almost nothing is), isopropanol is rubbing alcohol, which was probably included to keep all the weird ingredients mixed together
Yeah, i'd forgot it was nitrobenzene, the early cans said so on the label, but later Blenzall thought that "oil of merbane " looked less offensive" (or toxic?) , and maybe it would hide the fact it was a power booster?( Lon Stevens suggested THAT .)

[Tomtall]

I find myself going back to this web site time and time again. The Soriano outboards of the 1930's were truly a mechanical marvil. Now to be considered as rare as any outboard ever built. The web site can be seen at http://www.soriano-outboard.com/4436/index.html

[Mark75H]

I find myself going back to this web site time and time again. The Soriano outboards of the 1930's were truly a mechanical marvil. Now to be considered as rare as any outboard ever built. The web site can be seen at http://www.soriano-outboard.com/4436/index.html

Wow! A few new pictures, much more in the captions! If you've been there before, you need to go back and see what Marc has dug up! Fantastic stuff!

[Ron Hill]

With the two stroke being on the "ENDANGERED" list this Mercury S-3000 stil has to be one of the coolest OUTBOARD ever built...

V-6, 150 cubic inches, 300 plus horsepower.. Fuel injected....

I've owned and busted a lot of outboards, most were V-6...Evinrudes...then Mercs, 2.4's, then Yamahas... This S-3000 is a sweet piece...

A coil per cyclinder, injectors for each cyclinder...aluminum block, with nikacil "Chrome" cyclinder liners... A very straight forward engine, with a TON OF HORSEPOWER.... and our government doesn't want them to make it anymore...

[Tim Chance]

I looked up "oil of merbane" all the results say it is nitrobenzene, very toxic stuff but a very potent power increaser. Nitropropane is a another oxidizer/power increaser (not as toxic as nitrobenzene, but almost nothing is), isopropanol is rubbing alcohol, which was probably included to keep all the weird ingredients mixed together
I remember guys running nitrobenzene, their exhaust smelled like shoe polish.

[Dancingbear1961]

Have any of you guys (and girls) photos of the Yamato 500cc engines that were used by Neil LaRose and others in the pro class back in the 1990s?

The racing engines (as opposed to the stock 80s, 102s, 302s) never took off here in Europe, so for many of us they remain a mystery.

It will be interesting to see how the Yamato 500cc engine compares to the Rossi and VRPs engines of today, as a lot of the design features, 4 exhausts, reed valves, etc, I'm sure can trace their origins back to the Yamato

Any information you can provide for this (and the other Yamato racing engines) would be much appreciated

BTW does anyone race the Yamato engines in the pro class these days?
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m46/dancingbear1961/Miscellaneous%20Racing/500Yamato.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

This is Howard Anderson's and yes it still can be seen racing at the nationals.

[sheuninck]

Atatched is a cool mod 50 moter

[Mark75H]

Someone else has nominated the Merc 25xs:

[Thomas]

Outboard museum Berlin GER.

Photo Jarno Pirhonen.

[Fast Fred]

heard about one like that, is it supercharged?, dose it have a tractor drive,(pusher and a puller prop)

[corin_huke]

Moi Thomas!

Mitä kuulu?

Where in Berlin is the Outboard Museum?

D

[lilabner]

European Corvair...:D
American version below..

[Mark75H]

heard about one like that, is it supercharged?, dose it have a tractor drive,(pusher and a puller prop)

Push and pull is "tandem" ... "tractor" means puller prop on front only

Yes, it is supercharged. More about the Soriano at: http://www.soriano-outboard.com/4436/index.html

[Fast Fred]

tandem, ya seein that now, so it's German made? that was the Bomb at one time i was told.

[Mark75H]

tandem, ya seein that now, so it's German made? that was the Bomb at one time i was told.

No, just that one lives in a museum in Germany. Originally made in Spain, later France and then Italy (but never Germany) ... it is all at the web site noted above

My guess is that most of them were made in France

They were definitly the bomb in their day ... basically held the world's outboard speed record when they were first made and raised it again and again for almost 25 years

An odd connection with OSSA motorcycles and movie projection equipment ... OSSA is the same metal casing company involved in making the Sorianos, the projectors and bikes

[Fast Fred]

was thare a lot made, think thare mite be some up for grabs?

[Mark75H]

Not likely to find one, many were destroyed or lost during WWII.The few that were made mostly went to nobility and very wealthy merchant types, families not likely to be willing to sell, 'cause they wouldn't need to ... sort of like selling the great Vicount's armor. Of the ones known, most are in musems or the hands of extremely wealthy collectors.

Probably only 50 or so made anyway, fewer than 5 brought to the US. Unless you are travelling to France, Switzerland and Italy with a few million extra Euros to spend, they are outta your class.

[Fast Fred]

they are outta your class.
yes, i've heard this before, on another moda, got four of them now, goin for the last one. which incedently has pissed off some.

[Mark75H]

Not in the same class as Mod 50, for sure ;) Didn't you ask about Merc Mark 75H's once? ... found any of them yet? :cool:

[Fast Fred]

i did once, was not lookin for my self.
on the Mercs, from what i can see, thare racers were not that different from the regular powerheads, the units them selfs just had a 1to1 direct drive.
if i could find a full size wing hull maybe i could warmup to the idea of no head
gasket. think i would have to cut it off and fix it.

[Mark75H]

maybe i could warmup to the idea of no head
gasket. think i would have to cut it off and fix it.

That's already been done, too :) Mod Outboard Tech rules page 41, rule 2 under 60 ci Mercs makes it illegal in FE ... prolly 'cause they know you are right in what you are thinking:rolleyes:

[Roy Hodges]

be pissed off, than pissed on ................

[Thomas]

[QUOTE=Thomas;28254]Outboard museum Berlin GER.

Deutches Museum

http://www.deutsches-museum.de/

München not Berlin!!

Photo Jarno Pirhonen.

[corin_huke]

Here is Jarnos 250 racing engine, one of the coolest and probably
fastest ever, exeeding the quality of all Italian race engines which is a tested fact.
Sorry guys, not allowed to post any further details since theese guys
want to keep their edge but I can tell you is has
own rods and case + Honda RS cylinders (not inferior copies like the most).

Do not ask how much, you can´t get one of theese, you have to build it by yourself.:D

http://www.peramoottoripurkaamo.fi/filemanager/NURMI250POWER.JPG

Actually, I've seen this 250 motor first hand and seen it raced many times

It's not bad for a bunch of Finns that enjoy a drink or two or three!!! :D :D :D

PERKKELE!!!!!!

[RichardKCMo]

Those coolest motors all seem to be oppossed cyl., i guess history repeats.
By the way Corvairs win most all the sand drags in this area, slightly over 3.5 sec. at the local track.
RichardKCMo

[Mark75H]

Brain, lighten up a little ... this is coolness ... by the poster's opinion, not by number of motors made, difficulty of production, number of races won etc.

If we were going to absolutes we could DQ Quincy for using someone else's lower unit instead of their own and DQ the Soriano for not being entered in many races. Neither of those criteria stop them from being amoung the coolest ever made.

[Jeff Lytle]

Let's all keep an eye on the race results with this Jarnos engine. Perhaps they do have an edge that no one has perfected yet.

As for Brian's post to Thomas.....I agree with Sam, there must have been a better way to get your point across without coming across like you did. I'm sure there was no harm intended, but Sam and I have been around long enough to see a potential verbal battle flare up over the simplest of comments. Just food for thought.

[corin_huke]

I certainly don't want to fan the flames of any fire which is smoldering away at the moment, but may be Thomas can explain why he thinks the Nurmi engine gets his vote

I'm fortunate enough to have seen it first hand and the workmanship is 1st class. And as far as perfomance goes, Jarno was credited with speeds well in excess of 100mph (160 km/h) four may be five years ago - speeds which only today the 250 of Rossi & VRP are now achieving.

There is no two ways about it, the VRP engine is well engineered. In my mind, I always think of Carlo as an engineer, as at the end of the day, that's his background and building racing engines only accounts for a very very small part of his business/work. Giuseppe is a racer and although sometimes his workmanship is a little inferior to Carlo's what he turns out of his workshop is built for racing and sometimes does not look as 'elegant' as the VRP, but boy it does its job well!! I guess going back in years, it was the difference between König engines and those produced by Yamato

And you also have to remember that in this day and age there is "very little that's new under the sun" and that most things are taking someone else's work and improving upon it in whatever way. I know for a fact that both the VRP and Rossi engines were influenced by other racing outboard engines and that Carlo & Giuseppe also take ideas from other forms of 2-stroke racing - karts, bikes, etc

The above having been said, I take my hat off to both Carlo & Giuseppe for building such good racing engines and having the desire to continually improve them. Giuseppe once told me how many years it took to prefect the needles in the carbs on his 250......jeeeze I'd have given up by then and retired to the bar for a large vino!!! :rolleyes:

[David Weaver]

I'm fortunate enough to have seen it first hand and the workmanship is 1st class. And as far as perfomance goes, Jarno was credited with speeds well in excess of 100mph (160 km/h) four may be five years ago - speeds which only today the 250 of Rossi & VRP are now achieving.
:


Check your history. Sean McKean set a 250cc kilo record with a Yamato in excess of 100mph many, many year ago. And Chris Hellsten established a 1 2/3 record in the low 90's, many, many years ago (so he was at or close to 100).

I have seen 97mph on the GPS a couple of times with the VRP and I have no doubt that it will go over 100mph. But, if I cannot use it in competition then it does me know good. More and more, this is an acceleration sport...

None of this has to do with the coolest engine though. My personal favorite is the Crescent Super "C". I just thought those enignes rocked in their day....

[corin_huke]

David - in Italy last year they had an Italian 250 race at the same time we were there for a European 350 race.

In Italy they have transponder approach to timing with each boat having their own individual transponder firing a signal to a beacon at race control. They happened to use it for top speed also (quite how I don't know) but the 250s were recording speeds of 164, 165 and I think the highest 167 km/h which is way over 100mph

This was on a river course - 750m straights, pin turns, in full race trim

The 250s were considerably quicker than the 350s on both top speed and lap times. The pole sitter in 350 would have qualified 4th or 5th in the 250 race

So you like the Crescent engine do you....like this one? :D

[David Weaver]

David - in Italy last year they had an Italian 250 race at the same time we were there for a European 350 race.

In Italy they have transponder approach to timing with each boat having their own individual transponder firing a signal to a beacon at race control. They happened to use it for top speed also (quite how I don't know) but the 250s were recording speeds of 164, 165 and I think the highest 167 km/h which is way over 100mph

This was on a river course - 750m straights, pin turns, in full race trim

The 250s were considerably quicker than the 350s on both top speed and lap times. The pole sitter in 350 would have qualified 4th or 5th in the 250 race

So you like the Crescent engine do you....like this one? :D

Two years ago, while testing for the nationals my GPS read 156 mph. Should I assume it was the prop? Or just an off day for the sattlelites?? No doubt that 250's are very fast. But, in the US they never go over 100 mph in competition. ;) If they did, big brother my take an interest in the class....

[epugh66]

To me, the coolest engine is the one you like the most. For me, it's the old "almost" Yamato 250 of mine. I almost won the nationals, I almost set two records and I almost blew over( I did nose dive and barrel roll, I'd like to have those back) with.

[David Weaver]

To me, the coolest engine is the one you like the most. For me, it's the old "almost" Yamato 250 of mine. I almost won the nationals, I almost set two records and I almost blew over( I did nose dive and barrel roll, I'd like to have those back) with.

Eric,

What about our Konig 125's??? I probably had more pure fun racing that vibrating machine than any other!! I still remember being towed in at Constantine with you on the same tow-line. Nothing major to either enigne, "stuff" just fell off during the heat. And we went right back out for the next heat.

My favorite engine and probably the least competitive that I ever owned was a late-model 4-cylinder Konig 250. That engine just ran so smooth, but we bought it too late. We had over 100 heats plus test time on the original crank (only changed 1-piston and 4 rings) before it finally blew-up.

DW

[smittythewelder]

Ha ha, nice restoration, Thomas! I have one of those, still the smoothest and best trolling motor ever!

[Tomtall]

Well this thread hasn't been active in awhile so I thought I would get it active again with a posting of the Scott world record attempt dyno picture. Sam was the one who started this great thread with a posting of his favorit outboard, the Scott Atwater.

[Smokin' Joe]

Outboard museum Berlin GER.

Photo Jarno Pirhonen.


No. Deutsche Museum, München. I posted a quite similar photo 1/2009.

[Smokin' Joe]

Outboard museum Berlin GER.

Photo Jarno Pirhonen.

No. Deutsche Museum, München.

[Mini Max]

Maybe not the coolest, but pretty cool. This was a Martin Factory engine. No serial number. It has been in storage since new.

[Smokin' Joe]

Maybe not the coolest, but pretty cool. This was a Martin Factory engine. No serial number. It has been in storage since new.

Louis Rothermel in Houston owns quite a few of those, plus both fishing and racing Martin 200s. He ran them as kid. Here are two from Louis' collection. For more look under Members' Activities on

http://www.texaschapteraomci.com/Members_Activities.php

Indian restored by Tom Oncken, Houston.

I'm writing an article on the Walker-Baumann tractor gearcase, with many photos, for The Antique Outboarder, in case anyone's interested. Will come out in Jan. or April. You get the AO free when you join the AOMCI

www.aomci.org

[Mini Max]

Interesting. For the first time I see that my engine has a prototype short tower compared to the engines sold to the public and from the photos of other "60's" I have seen on the web. I never realized that until now. The last photo is a nice 200 "S"

[Smokin' Joe]

Interesting. For the first time I see that my engine has a prototype short tower compared to the engines sold to the public and from the photos of other "60's" I have seen on the web. I never realized that until now. The last photo is a nice 200 "S"

After WWII OMC made no more racing motors until the 1960s. George Martin took the 60(shown above) to a race and beat the Mercury 10hp. Kiekhaefer blew his stack and demanded something to beat them. The Quickie lower unit was the result. Bill Holland raced and was Martin rep before he was Scott rep, then dealer and raced the Scott 590.
Later he was a Mercury dealer in Houston. He ran the Scott on a Jones cabover hydro.

[Mark75H]

My research says it was the Champion Hot Rod that got Carl's goat ... it preceded the Martin racers. The Martin 200 racer did cause Kiekhaefer to upgrade the Merc B racer from the KG7H to the Mark20H ... but by the time the 20H was for sale, National Pressure Cooker had scrapped Martin production.

The Martin HS60 was never on Carl's radar ... it did not qualify as an APBA race motor. The few times HS60's raced against Mercs were at Martin's own backyard pond races and the Mercs may or may not have even had Quickies. Martin publicized the events as if they were big time races and Martin fans got a big ego boost from it.

[Ron Hill]

As I recall the story, Jim Jost worked for Martin and raced a Martin....Jost was quite a PR man, so Carl hired Jimmy at Mercury.
Seems maybe Martins were made by a pressure cooker company. They soon went broke.
Carl understood marketing, probably better than engineering!

[Smokin' Joe]

My research says it was the Champion Hot Rod that got Carl's goat ... it preceded the Martin racers. The Martin 200 racer did cause Kiekhaefer to upgrade the Merc B racer from the KG7H to the Mark20H ... but by the time the 20H was for sale, National Pressure Cooker had scrapped Martin production.

The Martin HS60 was never on Carl's radar ... it did not qualify as an APBA race motor. The few times HS60's raced against Mercs were at Martin's own backyard pond races and the Mercs may or may not have even had Quickies. Martin publicized the events as if they were big time races and Martin fans got a big ego boost from it.

Sam,

Martin 60 was about 1950. When was the Hot Rod built?
Louis Rothermel can quote the date and place of the race site
when the Martin 60 beat the Mercurys. I'll check.

Best,
Joe

[Mark75H]

I agree, Martins beat Mercs at the specific event well remembered by Martin fans. It was used extensively in Martin ads ... but you won't find it in any magazine articles or APBA's Propeller, etc.

The first Hot Rod racer was 1949

[Ron Hill]

Carl paid my dad's way to the 1953 Winnebagoland Marathon because he'd heard my dad was an excellent motor "Measuer" inspector.

When my dad got home from the race he had great stories. He talked about these two young engineers, Charlie and Edgar. He said Charlie lived with his mom, and they were REALLY nice people.. Anyway, my dad talked about Wisconsin steaks, that Edgar had "MADE" him eat without using a knife.

Seems they had the Martin (B motor) on Merc's dyno at the time and they were trying to figure out what to do about it and the Evinrudes in the C Class. My dad told them to let him worry about those motors. But mentioned the 20-H.

By June of 1954, my dad was asked again to inspect at the Winnebagoland Marathon, and this time my dad drove taking my mom and me. There were 20-H's in Wisconsin in June, 1954.

By now Charlie, Edgar and Carl we're first names with my dad. Jimmy Jost was now working for Mercury, In think, by August 1954, at the DePere, Wisconsin Nationals, Jimmy Jost was already elected Stock Outboard Vice President of APBA.

I didn't get to go to DePere, but several things still stick in my mind.

1. The Californians had taken hack saws to thier new 20-H cowling and cut the hell out of Carl's gold cowlings. When Carl saw these California 20-H's he flew off the handle and demanded they be illegal and my dad should disqualify them. After my dad read Carl the rules, CARL OFFERED EVERY CALIFORNIAN brand new cowlings. They refused which pissed Carl off at California and my dad.

2. DIck O"Dea asked my dad to measure an A-B Quickie, it measured. The foot was legal but had a bushing tail cone. O'Dea ran the foot on his 20-H and Don Badducci protested the cone saying it didn't have a needle bearings and was therefore faster. The Commission help held the protest. My dad always blamed himself for this DQ, but O'Dea never did!

3. Jim Jost, I think,was Stock VP, was going out in the patrol boat, at the Nationals with four cases of beer in he patrol boat. My dad told Jimmy he couldn't take beer on the course and Jimmy and my dad got in quite an argument. My dad took an 8mm movie of Jimmy with the beer. (I'm getting the 8 mm changed into a DVD for Christmas)...Years later we laughed about this, but at the time, Jim was really mad at my old man for not letting him take beer on the race course...

So, the 20-H came out in early 1954, and the 30-H came out after the '55 Nationals in Devil's Lake, Oregon (Ron Loomis won the Cu Nationals in'55 with an Evinrude, by '56 he had a Mark 30-H) and pretty much so did the Hot Rod. As both, the Hot Rod and Mark 30-H, were at the Nationals in Cambridge, MD 1956.

[Danny Pigott]

Ron where an why did they cut the 20H Cowl. I have a 20H cowl that is cut for the Quincy open ex. but that was for PRO.

[Ron Hill]

For starters the took half the cowling off. Them back by the spark plugs they cut the other half of the hand off, so you could get to the spark plugs. Then, as I recall they cut the cowing so you could get to the upper left hand corner, so you could get the rewind starter off. If you recall the 20-H had the gas filter on top of the carb and getting the rewind off was a pain....

I'll look for some pictures...But, they were not cut to run "Stacks"...

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

For starters the took half the cowling off. Them back by the spark plugs they cut the other half of the hand off, so you could get to the spark plugs. Then, as I recall they cut the cowing so you could get to the upper left hand corner, so you could get the rewind starter off. If you recall the 20-H had the gas filter on top of the carb and getting the rewind off was a pain....

I'll look for some pictures...But, they were not cut to run "Stacks"...

Ron, I finished 4th in BSH with a Jacoby/20H when we started 16 boats. I don't recall Bob Parrish's 20H being cut. Bob won BSH & 3rd in BU with DeSilva boats. I believe that Ed West won BU with a repainted 20H maybe yellow & blue, but I sure don't remeber any cut cowls being allowed to race.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

For starters the took half the cowling off. Them back by the spark plugs they cut the other half of the hand off, so you could get to the spark plugs. Then, as I recall they cut the cowing so you could get to the upper left hand corner, so you could get the rewind starter off. If you recall the 20-H had the gas filter on top of the carb and getting the rewind off was a pain....

I'll look for some pictures...But, they were not cut to run "Stacks"...

Here are some pictures taken at the dock after the 2nd heat of the finals awaiting inspectio. 519-J is me. In one pictuure you can see Bob Parrish to the left of Terry Deringer who finished 2nd. Dave Kough from NJ was 3rd. He won the first heat, claimed he saw hands up indicating a re-start in the 2nd heat which didn't happen. 2 weeks prior to the nationals, I set the competition record at the divisionals in Syracuse, NY. In the 1st heat at Depere, Dave & I started on the outside. I was pulling him to the 1st turn then I got airborne & almost blew over. My dad & Hal Kelly, who is in the picture with my dad by my boat(we went together to Depere), told me they could see me hanging on to the throttle & steering wheel & then I righted the boat & finished 6th. The 2nd heat I finished 3rd, tried every which way to get by Terry but just couldn't.

[david bryan]

john are going to let the facts get in the way of a good story

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

john are going to let the facts get in the way of a good story

I sure hope you were kidding, as the facts add life to a story as well.

[Ron Hill]

See in those days, California was considered one state out near Japan.

Carl wanted the new 20-H run as it came out of the box. That being said, I think that included keeping the cowling on in total. I just looked at the Boat Sport web page, and most 20-H's had the full cowling.

My dad and Red Thomas had goone to DePere together. Red ran AU, BU DU an DSH, but only took the AU-BU boat on the top of tghe car. Red was a Marine pilot and was called in the middle of the night, Saturday before the Nationals and told to return home as war was breaking out in Korea, and he needed to get home.

Eddie West went by Eddie West, Jr (A Northern California, Region 11 driver), Chuck Boring Jr and Bob Clement were also NorCal drivers. I'm pretty sure these were the guys with the cut cowlings and a John says, repainted cowlings.

I'm pretty sure that Bobby Parrish and Red Thomas' side cowling were on the floor of my dad's shop...


My dad, always said later, he should have agreed with CARL, that keeping STOCK, STOCK was best.


My main point of the post was to answer someone's question about when the 20-H came out. Reading Boat Sport this morning, it seems I was close to the FACTS, as they were tested in March of 1954 with 20-H's in Wisconsin.

ADD:


The A motor that Vic Bonnan was second with in A Hydro, became my motor that fall after Vic threw a rod that fall at Parker. In 1955, we loaned my motor to Bobby Parrish to take to Devil's lake for the nationals. Seems Bobby got two seconds for a third...

I was also wrong about the Stock VP, it was Merlyn Culver in '54 (A Mercury distributor).


Last ADD;

How old were you in 1954??? Dick O'Dea was just going into or coming out of the Navy??? Right? Did you have your side cowling off, too? (At the time, I think rule said, "Cowlings could be removed"....No exact rules on how they could be removed...


So, Hal Kelly and your dad are holding you there??? Cool!

Great pictures on the Boat Sport web site..Thanks for your pictures, John.


Last, last add:
That patrol boat is the one, in my dad's 8mm films that Jim Jost had the four cases of beer in, heading out to patrol....

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

See in those days, California was considered one state out near Japan.

Carl wanted the new 20-H run as it came out of the box. That being said, I think that included keeping the cowling on in total. I just looked at the Boat Sport web page, and most 20-H's had the full cowling.

My dad and Red Thomas had goone to DePere together. Red ran AU, BU DU an DSH, but only took the AU-BU boat on the top of tghe car. Red was a Marine pilot and was called in the middle of the night, Saturday before the Nationals and told to return home as war was breaking out in Korea, and he needed to get home.

Eddie West went by Eddie West, Jr (A Northern California, Region 11 driver), Chuck Boring Jr and Bob Clement were also NorCal drivers. I'm pretty sure these were the guys with the cut cowlings and a John says, repainted cowlings.

I'm pretty sure that Bobby Parrish and Red Thomas' side cowling were on the floor of my dad's shop...


My dad, always said later, he should have agreed with CARL, that keeping STOCK, STOCK was best.


My main point of the post was to answer someone's question about when the 20-H came out. Reading Boat Sport this morning, it seems I was close to the FACTS, as they were tested in March of 1954 with 20-H's in Wisconsin.

ADD:


The A motor that Vic Bonnan was second with in A Hydro, became my motor that fall after Vic threw a rod that fall at Parker. In 1955, we loaned my motor to Bobby Parrish to take to Devil's lake for the nationals. Seems Bobby got two seconds for a third...

I was also wrong about the Stock VP, it was Merlyn Culver in '54 (A Mercury distributor).


Last ADD;

How old were you in 1954??? Dick O'Dea was just going into or coming out of the Navy??? Right? Did you have your side cowling off, too? (At the time, I think rule said, "Cowlings could be removed"....No exact rules on how they could be removed...


So, Hal Kelly and your dad are holding you there??? Cool!

Great pictures on the Boat Sport web site..Thanks for your pictures, John.


Last, last add:
That patrol boat is the one, in my dad's 8mm films that Jim Jost had the four cases of beer in, heading out to patrol....

My starboard cowl was removed as well.

I was 15, & Bob Parrish & Ron Loomis took me to the Depere fair grounds for a car race during the nationals.

Attached are pix of Ron & Bob from Boat Sport, a picture of me on the scales after breaking the record & one of Dick O'Dea receiving the high point trophy in uniform.

BTW I had one of the very 1st 20H's sold in NJ. Mt dad purchased it from Covals Sporting goods. We had it in March 1954.

[Ron Hill]

Dave Bryan, who posted here, give me Ron Loomis' email the other day!


Can you make the pictures larger?

Any speed secrets you want to share about 20-H pressure regulators?

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Dave Bryan, who posted here, give me Ron Loomis' email the other day!


Can you make the pictures larger?

Any speed secrets you want to share about 20-H pressure regulators?

The guys in the Seattle area were using a Filt O Reg regulator according to Johnny Wehrle & Sid Urytzski (Sid-Carft) who attended the 1955 Nationals. We couldn't use them in Region 3 as they were illegal. Who knows why they were allowed to use them.

I re did the pictures from above. Hopefully they'll be larger this time.

[MTECHMARINE]

There is a renaissance of the old Quincy and other early mod stuff going on. When I raced up in Seattle area, region 10 it was the heyday of all this "alky" stuff. I remember ELIMINATIONS in F hydro! All I could afford was an AU rig in those days and I always wanted to "get me onna' these"! :eek:

So here's one nostalgia trip for you.I remember Bud Walters had one screamin' D alky made from a sandcast engine. Charlie Williams has it today. By a stroke of good luck I was able to get a Quincy sandcast D powerhead from ebay. After a battle with dried castor I was able to get it apart. It has the full treatment, at one time it even had "mumps" Doug Kay built me a set of stacks for it and we cut some off the Wiseco pistons for gas. I have it nearly redone and will have it to run at collector meets and / or races in 2011!:D

Hope you enjoy the pictures.

[Mark75H]

Bringing this back for new members to see and comment on.

Link to the first page: http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=910

[Roy Hodges]

Wayne, I cant remember if they had six pipes or three ? but it wasnt the flathead , I would have rememberd that thing !

The one in the pic I belive is a stevens (could be rong). this six carb engine is still racing today :D :cool:

And oh yes that smell was something else.............................................. .......
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........
The fuel was probably the methanol/castor blend with (Blenzall brand) "oil of merbane" - which my local speed shop said is really NITRO Benzene.Lon was a dealer for Blenzall...
.................................................. .................................................. ..............................
Rich Fuschlin has had a "bunch" of Stevens ' 6 carb mercs .He also had 4 carb mercs (4 cylinder).

[1100r]

I allways liked this one too. Very impresive work ! :cool:


Jeff,
Great picture of Steve Bensons rig. He ran this often down here in region 11. He later sold the boat to Mike Lopez who ran it with great success along with many records broke with it. He then sold the boat to someone back East. He did have Steve build him another motor with a new boat built but this one was special. I always liked the name they had for the boat Never Ending.

[Smokin' Joe]

What is your favorite? Here's mine:

(Still looking for one of these ugly lower units for it or a short 13½" tower to get in trade for the long 16")

Probably the OMC Mod 50 motor with exhaust on the starboard side, but I like the stock version, the 1975 Evinrude 75.

[brichter]

Jeff--Was the Lon Stevens Merc with the six pipes or the right side or a Merc Quincy flathead like this? You know Jeff, I swear when I started scanning this photo I had the brief smell of that fuel blend from Californie (forgot the name) that had something extra that made it smell different from regular castor oil/methanol blend.

I just found this post, Looks like Jerry Heywood on the left, Is that Bruce Summers at the helm (center)? I know Bruce is on BRF.

[Smokin' Joe]

There is a renaissance of the old Quincy and other early mod stuff going on. When I raced up in Seattle area, region 10 it was the heyday of all this "alky" stuff. I remember ELIMINATIONS in F hydro! All I could afford was an AU rig in those days and I always wanted to "get me onna' these"! :eek:

So here's one nostalgia trip for you.I remember Bud Walters had one screamin' D alky made from a sandcast engine. Charlie Williams has it today. By a stroke of good luck I was able to get a Quincy sandcast D powerhead from ebay. After a battle with dried castor I was able to get it apart. It has the full treatment, at one time it even had "mumps" Doug Kay built me a set of stacks for it and we cut some off the Wiseco pistons for gas. I have it nearly redone and will have it to run at collector meets and / or races in 2011!:D

Hope you enjoy the pictures.

Nice photos, Bill! I think sandcast means KG-9, right?

[Bill Van Steenwyk]

Brichter:

I think the driver of the "F" Hydro is possibly Wayne Walgrave. I haven't seen him in probably 30 years but I think I recognize him because that was the type life jacket he wore.

Plus 6 cyl flatheads were not that common and not just everyone had one. Bruce Summers of course did, but I don't think that is him. Perhaps Gene East will chime in, cause I am sure he knows for sure who it is.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Don't know who the pit men are, but Bill Van is right. Wayne Walgrave (from I believe La Verne, Minnesota) is at the helm of his own hydro design....Chapparal. What a beautiful noise that motor made. (Except to to pit men who saw my mouth moving might say "Huh? What?":D

[Mark75H]

Nice photos, Bill! I think sandcast means KG-9, right?

KF-9, KG-9, Mark40 and Mark50 were all sandcast ... The KF and KG used gear drive distributors ... the 40 and 50 used the belt.

[194265]

Hey Sam, You remember, the early Mark 55's were sand cast also. :D

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

Hey Sam, You remember, the early Mark 55's were sand cast also. :D

I'm not sure that I believe that as the C.C's were die cast with the larger carb opening & the blocks had the pads. Not sure if the earlier models as Sam mentioned had pads.

[Gene East]

Don't know who the pit men are, but Bill Van is right. Wayne Walgrave (from I believe La Verne, Minnesota) is at the helm of his own hydro design....Chapparal. What a beautiful noise that motor made. (Except to to pit men who saw my mouth moving might say "Huh? What?":D

Bill and Wayne are correct on all points!
I used to have a CD of Walgrave and Summer's 6-cyl Loopers running together.
It was like a symphony!
Unfortunately, when I tried to play it about a month ago the sound track had mysteriously disappeared.

BUMMER!

BTW: I rode with Wayne in FRR at DePue back in the 70s. Wayne said his regular deck rider was sick and asked if I'd like to fill in for him.
"Naw Wayne, thanks anyway but ask someone else", NOT!
You bet your sweet bippie and anything else you want to throw in! I was in that boat like a duck on a june bug!
If you think a 6-Looper sounds good from the bank, you should hear & feel it just inches away from your butt!
That was a boat ride to remember, and even 40+ years later I still remember!
Thanks Wayne!

[194265]

If you would go back and read my article call the "Sandcast Thunderbolts" you will see that a small groupe of Mark 55's where indeed Sandcast.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

If you would go back and read my article call the "Sandcast Thunderbolts" you will see that a small groupe of Mark 55's where indeed Sandcast.

Again,

you may be correct, but MK55's had C.C.'s with small carb openings whreas the 55H C.C's had the larger carb openings.

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

If you would go back and read my article call the "Sandcast Thunderbolts" you will see that a small groupe of Mark 55's where indeed Sandcast.

I read your Sand Cast Thunderbolt article again & my comment regarding the MK55H still holds true that MK55H's were die cast & none were sand cast. First as I said earlier they all had padded cylinders & secondly they had a C.C. to reed block opening & carb mounting stud location to accept the Carter carb used on the 20H & 55H. Later Mercury came out with the conversion kit for the 20H's with the Tillotson KA7A carb and APBA allowed those to be used on the MK55H as well.

[Mark75H]

1959 Mk55H's came with the KA7A, that's why they were allowed to be retrofitted to earlier 55H's and 20H's

Yes, early fishing 55's were sandcast, all 55H's are diecast

[194265]

My answer was for Mark 55's not Mark 55H's.

[Ron Hill]

My answer was for Mark 55's not Mark 55H's.

I know that some Mark 50's were sand cast, but I never knew there was and never saw a Mark 55 that had a sand cast block.

When we legalized the Mark 55 blocks to run on Mark 55-H's, no one ever talked about sand cast blocks. We went back to 860000 serial numbers but the best 55 blocks were black with the serial number 89 something. They came off Mark 55 E and were high compression, but still within the 55-H specs.

I would have loved to have been allowed to run a Mark 40 block with the big carbs....in APBA D Stock.

[Gene East]

I thought ALL MK 50's were sand cast and I've never seen a sand cast MK 55.

That doesn't mean they didn't exist, but one would think any left over sand cast blocks would have been used up as "Wizards".

Maybe not. On second thought, weren't the 4 cylinder "Wizards" MK 30's?

In any case, the sand cast blocks were much easier to repair. They welded like spreading butter.

Interesting that MK 55 blocks had to be approved as replacements for MK 55H's.

I understand "Wizard" powerheads were not legal in stock. True or false??

Too many rules in stock!

[John Schubert T*A*R*T]

I thought ALL MK 50's were sand cast and I've never seen a sand cast MK 55.

That doesn't mean they didn't exist, but one would think any left over sand cast blocks would have been used up as "Wizards".

Maybe not. On second thought, weren't the 4 cylinder "Wizards" MK 30's?

In any case, the sand cast blocks were much easier to repair. They welded like spreading butter.

Interesting that MK 55 blocks had to be approved as replacements for MK 55H's.

I understand "Wizard" powerheads were not legal in stock. True or false??

Too many rules in stock!

Gene,

Wizard blocks were legal to be used on MK30H's in stock, and preferred by many. There was a myth that ther had the padded blocks, some may have but not all. Merc allowed several padded 30 c.i. blocks to get out & never petitioned the SORC to dias-allow them. THose that had them were virtually unbeatable.

[194265]

My article on the Sandcast Thunderbolts was published in the Antique Outboarder Book dated April, 1990 and was reprinted here 7/26/2010 titled The Sandcast Thunderbolts. Take some time guys and read it. All Mark 50's were Sandcast and 1955 Mark 55' S/N's 831021 - 832999 were Sandcast blocks.

[Ron Hill]

Where is this article about the Mark 50's and Mark 55's....???

In the fall OF 1976, I SPENT A WEEK DRIVING FROM YUMA TO LAS VEGAS. I was looking form 89 serial numbers on Mark 55-E's. Seems I had my wife's Monte Carlos loaded with powerheads....All 89 serial numbers...I remember seeing 83 numbers and wondered why I needed the 89's.

Charlie Strang told me that the 89's were 55 E's and had higher compression. I never saw an 83 that was sand cast...

Gene,

As far as I know, the Wizard blocks all measured the exact same as the Mark 30 and the Mark 30-H was the exact same as the MARK 30. There were rumors that some Wizards had some blocks that had "padded" heads. My dad spent a lot of time in Iowa, Nebraska, N and south Dakota looking for 30 blocks as finding fresh water blaock in California were few and far between.

We ended up with three good Mark 30's. One was a Mercury block from Nebraska, we called that the Nebraska motor, one was a Wizard......The Wizard had no markings on the block where usually the four cylinder motors said, "Turbo Four"....just a smooth blank block. My third good 30-H was a black block from an original Mark 30-H....

My fears about the "PADDED" Wizard block came as a way to keep people like my dad from saying "BULL ****". At one time we had maybe 22 Mark 30 blocks. I had my dad measure the intake and exhaust posts on everyone, I wrote the numbers down and sometime switched block on him to double check his numbers. The damn blocks were so close you could say they were the same.

About this time, there were a couple of young races from NorCal that started running very fast in C Stock Hydro. I did their props, so I knew hat pitch they could trun and they won several Nationals, so I liked them....They claimed to run Wizard blocks. My dad decided to find some Wizards for us.....We found several, no "PADDED" ones......

About 12 years ago, I was talking to Lon Stevens and he was telling me how he welded heads in Mark 30 blocks, and mill Turbo Four off the side...He said, "His 30's CC's 14.2....." Most 30's as I recall were closer to 21 CC's...

[Mad Cat]

I was honored to ride deck for Wayne at Lawrence Lake 83 or 84 nationals ! That boat must have been 15' long and rode like a Caddilac ! My ears rang for a week after !
John Biagio

[JohnsonM50]

I know this is a mostly outboard website, but being an inboard fanatic I'd have to say the Merlin is the coolest racing engine of all time by a long shot, followed by the V12 Jag that was in Mitch Lemke's ET79. The Merlin powered some wild aircraft, the Spitfires, Mosquito's [fastest plane on earth in it's time] & the P51 Mustangs. If not for these great engines the Luftwaffe might have prevailed.

[194265]

Ron, go to page 5 of Outboard History and about half way down to title "Sandcast Thunderbolts".