Defeating 15 % ethanol

[champ20B]

My days with outboard racing and repair lasted from 1975 thru 1985 and during that period I cleaned and de-gummed many carbs and fuel systems from 6 hp all the way to 35' off shore boats. Sitting without gas turn over was the issue in every case, additives were only beginning to be developed and the gas degraded. Now a senior citizen and still maintaining 4 outboards I'm glad to say I have not had a gas related issue in years with the use of regular 10% pump gas with stabilizers only during the winter when it sits. I work in the chemical industry and use both methanol and ethanol by the thousands of gallons, distill it, and re-use it...good stuff for making color pigments for automotive paint and cosmetics. We have no issue with corrosion but hoses and gaskets are a different story. Material of construction is the key and with the right material and preventative maintenance things last. Our pontoon has a 5 year old 115 Suzuki which is serviced and checked annually and has never failed to promptly start but this year the fuel line was replaced because it had hardened. For me this is normal wear over 5 years. I have no issue with ethanol gas and when used with up dated equipment works great. The link to the gasoline report was very helpful in understanding the gas/ethanol history. Just my 2 cents...Thanks

As far as outboards go......in accordance to my recent statements.......ethanol can be lived with. But, when it comes to older cars and trucks (particularly carburated) it can be a dangerous problem. With an outboard, its easy to replace stuff when needed because of the problems associated. One can get to fuel lines, pumps, carb and so on as it goes bad, and easily inspect it all right there. But when you have a car with a hot set of headers or manifolds fuel can leak onto, and lines under the vehicle, and goodness knows... those rubber fuel tanks like the 1970s thru 80s dodge trucks use, it aint easy to catch potential fuel system failures. I know this first hand. So as I said before, "this stuff is outright dangerous". Just because I run it in my outboard doesn't mean I think ethanol gas is o.k overall. I don't. I believe that there should be non ethanol offered at most every gas station. Not every one can use this stuff and like me, many still drive older vehicles. I would run non ethanol in my truck, but it has a factory big block v-8 with a 10.25:1 compression. That's how it came from the factory, its not a hot-rodded vehicle so don't do the "I told you so" thing, Please!!! The octane boost stuff seldom does what is claimed and non ethanol isn't always available in 97 grade high test. I have to do 97 in ethanol because I would do more damage otherwise. YES!!!! OCTANE DOES MATTER!!!!! NO, YOU WONT NOTICE IT ON A ORDINARY ENGINE!!! But if you are running an early high compression v-8 or some later model high compression inboard marine engines that are similar to these, they WILL KNOCK, PING, AND DIESEL WHEN YOU TRY TO SHUT THEM OFF! 97 octane drastically reduces and stops this and that's a fact.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

We have one fueling station in Orange Grove, Texas that has one pump that is pure gasoline. I was fueling up a two gallon tank for my lawn mower when a local city policeman drove up. It's a small city. There are just a couple, plus the chief. I asked him what he thought about the non ethanol fuel because he only followed orders about where to fuel up. He told me "When you guys call....you want us there now! This is the only place we fill up. We have more power and we can respond quickly." I asked him then if he really thought it gave him more power and he said "Yeah....our motors are different. We had problems when we ran the regular gas. We put on a lot of miles, and when we need to go...we need to go. Regular gas won't give us the speed and acceleration.". The non ethanol gasoline at this station is more expensive and you have to have a special card in order to pump the gas. The card is issued by the company, and no other credit card will work. The City of Orange Grove, Texas would not go to the expense if the straight gasoline fuel had not proven itself less expensive in both down time and response time.

[A Mosny]

There is no "I told you so" thing going on, just discussion. In this case, as well as many others, you need special fuel for a special application, the same as the man next door with the SS 396. He comments frequently because the correct fuel for his high compression application is not readily available any more and he travels far to get it so he can enjoy his mussel car. As far as being outright dangerous, any fuel is dangerous because they all burn. Maintenance, inspection, and up grade is important for any auto, outboard, snow machine, or weed eater and so forth to prevent leakage on those hot parts. Good discussion though and good luck finding the fuel you need at a reasonable cost. Cost for ethanol free gas and higher octane fuel are outrageous. I guess it all comes down to reduced demand results in reduced supply.

[Master Oil Racing Team]

The cost is basically a result of government regulation. Ethanol free gas is higher due to reduced supply because it is batch made. But our government requires many different blends of gasoline depending upon what part of the country the gas is sold in and the time of year. Refineries have to finish up whatever they are making and switch to something else causing time, sampling, testing, etc. That does not include lost production from turnarounds which can take several weeks or more. If left up to the refiners themselves, we would have a good finished product at a much cheaper price. Remember when a pipeline went down that was shipping a Chicago specific blend? Rather than being able to use gasoline from a closer refinery, the gasoline made for Chicago had to be trucked up from Louisiana or Mississippi....wherever it was making that blend. The costs went above five dollars per gallon due to the added transportation costs.

[champ20B]

The cost is basically a result of government regulation. Ethanol free gas is higher due to reduced supply because it is batch made. But our government requires many different blends of gasoline depending upon what part of the country the gas is sold in and the time of year. Refineries have to finish up whatever they are making and switch to something else causing time, sampling, testing, etc. That does not include lost production from turnarounds which can take several weeks or more. If left up to the refiners themselves, we would have a good finished product at a much cheaper price. Remember when a pipeline went down that was shipping a Chicago specific blend? Rather than being able to use gasoline from a closer refinery, the gasoline made for Chicago had to be trucked up from Louisiana or Mississippi....wherever it was making that blend. The costs went above five dollars per gallon due to the added transportation costs.

Fuel cost, pollution paranoia, and these over powered small block v-8 and six cylinder engines. That's what really gets me. It seems we are in a double standard way of life every time one turns around! The goal of government is or was to eliminate old cars and trucks with big, so called, fuel wasting engines. Yet, we can buy a 440hp Laguna Seca BOSS 302 Mustang, a SRT 392 cid hemi dodge challenger (425HP), or a chevy Silverado with 405hp v-8, a dodge 1500 hemi with 390+hp. And don't forget the barrage of 280-360 hp v-6 family cars out there. Why??? I have an old truck with a big block four barrel v-8. It is just as fast and pulls as good and gets as good......actually better fuel economy than these bulky, heavy, square Tonka trucks people drive today. Really, I'm not kidding, it does. Its easy to maintain as well. That's why I don't care about new vehicles. They don't save gas any better than old cars if one knows how to drive the old cars. There is always a fuel shortage thing thrown at everyone, then there is the guilt trip-"your old vehicle is polluting mother earth!" and so on. Yet, there is that 500 hp truck or car winning an award for innovation at Sema! I think it is all ridiculous. Ill just stick to a good heavy duty, long lasting elephant motor with a trusty carburetor. The problem is the people behind the scenes trying to mess it up with that dang ethanol. CONSPIRACY ANYONE???LOL!!! But really, it is a bit of a pain though at times.

Another thing that grinds my gears are those awful diesel pickup trucks!!! Now here is pollution!!! Guys, if I can smell it (it is really bad, makes my eyes burn and chest hurt) it is polluting. The smell of these charcoal chuggers/ kerosene cars is ridiculous!! Now I have been a trucker over a 15+ year period. Semi trucks are not such a problem even though they average 475-550 HP @ 1100-1250 ft lbs of torque. They don't pollute as much because they are 15-18 liter engines.... that's 800- 1000+ cubic inches. The pickup trucks are trying to get the diesels they use to power like these commercial freight haulers!! It is childishly insane!! Any time a small engine powered by diesel is having a overshot of fuel for more power, it will stink and pollute. Those monster turbos and pollution systems really can only do so much for these little 400+ cid v-8 engines. They shouldn't make more than 200BHP. It should be a law. Not to change the subject.

[champ20B]

We have one fueling station in Orange Grove, Texas that has one pump that is pure gasoline. I was fueling up a two gallon tank for my lawn mower when a local city policeman drove up. It's a small city. There are just a couple, plus the chief. I asked him what he thought about the non ethanol fuel because he only followed orders about where to fuel up. He told me "When you guys call....you want us there now! This is the only place we fill up. We have more power and we can respond quickly." I asked him then if he really thought it gave him more power and he said "Yeah....our motors are different. We had problems when we ran the regular gas. We put on a lot of miles, and when we need to go...we need to go. Regular gas won't give us the speed and acceleration.". The non ethanol gasoline at this station is more expensive and you have to have a special card in order to pump the gas. The card is issued by the company, and no other credit card will work. The City of Orange Grove, Texas would not go to the expense if the straight gasoline fuel had not proven itself less expensive in both down time and response time.

Well, if the police department is using non ethanol, then that proves something. Come to think of it, I never saw law enforcement vehicles at a local gas pump near my home neither. I believe they have a city depot where all county vehicles fuel up. In fact, that is quite common. Wonder if its got ethanol in it? Maybe the government doesn't want to use ethanol in the stuff they ride in. It sure aint about saving tax dollars. Some of these dodge chargers they use aren't cheap. Fact is, they don't need them. The job can be done as quickly and effectively with any type of vehicle. It is about protocol and stationing of officers in specific areas and staying on track. Law enforcement officers are specifically trained in pursuit driving techniques, braking, and recovery of control in a skid. It is not about having a big engine, but how you control the situation and use communication for assistance, keeping in mind that other motorists are nearby and unaware of a potential situation and that a badge is no magic shield. It doesn't make one impervious to accidents or goof ups. And no, the engines in police cars are just regular engines anyone could buy. They just have the rpm limiter turned up if permissible, have heavy duty shocks, sway bars, and a heavier radiator. The cooling system is more about sitting idle at a road work site for extended periods of time more than anything. They used to buy ford crown victorias set up this way and they were called "police interceptor package". They would then send it to a local automotive electronics outfit and have the lights, communication, ect installed. That is all. The fact is you could catch a Ferrari with a dodge diplomat with proper techniques and protocol. Trust me, the bad guy is the one loosing control and he would end up stopping himself before too long.

To sum it up, he was just talkin big......"OUR ENGINES ARE DIFFERENT AND WE NEED THE ACCELERATION!!!" O.K...

[Fastjeff57]

...."That's why I don't care about new vehicles. They don't save gas any better than old cars if one knows how to drive the old cars."

Got to disagree with you here. Our Ford Focus (with its direct injection, 2 liter gas engine with 12 to one compression ratio) gets fabulous gas mileage is has excellent performance. We get high 30 mpg egularly, and just yesterday got 44 mpg on a trip! That was beyond belief for cars a decade ago, and its NOT one of those super lightweight traps either (like a Fiat 500). So progress IS being made.

Jeff

[champ20B]

...."That's why I don't care about new vehicles. They don't save gas any better than old cars if one knows how to drive the old cars."

Got to disagree with you here. Our Ford Focus (with its direct injection, 2 liter gas engine with 12 to one compression ratio) gets fabulous gas mileage is has excellent performance. We get high 30 mpg egularly, and just yesterday got 44 mpg on a trip! That was beyond belief for cars a decade ago, and its NOT one of those super lightweight traps either (like a Fiat 500). So progress IS being made.

Jeff

I imagine a 2 liter of any kind would get good mileage. But...what about a dodge dart with a 170 slant six? I know that a 3.7 liter 225 slant six will get close with one of these cars cause I drove one before. It would go forever on just a little bit of gas. Furthermore, you could pull a bass boat with these things and not break it. And still, in a equal comparison, a 1976 dodge 100 pickup with a 440 v-8 will do as good as a 2014 dodge 1500 with a 392cid/390hp hemi as long as you don't step on the throttle too much. One could simply let the torque of the 440 do its job, it will keep up with traffic very well. The beauty of a big engine is that you only need to barely crack the throttle to get going. The little bit of fuel that is used has enough leverage with the bigger crankshaft and so on to move mountains! "GIVE ME A LEVER AND ILL MOVE THE WORLD! " a famous quote...... . The point is in all of this, and this really got me going, is that all of the pollution scare tactics, fuel shortage claims ect ect are nothing but hype. It is aimed at making people buy new stuff or feel that they must. Then you have electric cars... LOL!!!!!! The fact is, that a bigger problem will arise from this. Where in the world, so to speak, will the batteries be disposed eventually. And would we really save energy? NO, not in the long run!! And don't think about nuclear energy. There isn't that much of the core stuff needed to build that many plants for this in the world. And what about time? I could imagine waiting for a charge up instead of a quick fill up on a long trip. Its been tried before and just doesn't work out the same at all. The electric companies would love to reach Saudi Royal Family status though. They could be the new fuel barons with electric cars. The bottom line is that we can still run to the dealer and buy muscle cars and trucks today regardless. They are making diesel 3/4-1 ton mosquito foggers by beefing up a little diesel 6.5 liter engine to make 350hp and 800+ torque when it should only make 200hp and 400+ torque (then nobody gets chemically induced migranes at traffic lights). Heck, the truck don't have enough weight or traction to constitute that kind of power!! And then the Government, in many but maybe not all places, don't run ethanol. But we are bombarded with it. Its like....(Papa gets the ice cream and the kids get ice milk). It is all double standard. Citizens are always regarded as a problem (polluting) one way or another by the powers that be, and we have to accept the corn liquor gasoline for it. And it doesn't really help much. Yes it burns clean, but look at the pollution done to the Mississippi river going into the gulf for the coarse of production of ethanol. Trade one issue only to gain another because there are always those who wants to have the cake and still eat it too. Convenience will always come with a price, and that is something that must be accepted no matter how far technology goes. We just have to eliminate the greater problems for that which makes lesser, and stick with it!

[Fastjeff57]

..."I imagine a 2 liter of any kind would get good mileage. But...what about a dodge dart with a 170 slant six? I know that a 3.7 liter 225 slant six will get close with one of these cars cause I drove one before."

You'd be really lucky to break 25 mpg with one of those engines. Furthermore, my little Focus--it does zero to sixty in 6.3 seconds, per a car magazine--will probably out pull that old slant six. It makes 163 hp (with the new rating system) which is more than enough.

Jeff

PS: Let's get back to marine subjects, okay?

[Master Oil Racing Team]

Okay. Marine engines=water. Water=good. Marine engines like gasoline. Gasoline is good. Ethanol likes water. Gasoline no likes water. Keep ethanol away from my gasoline. Keep the corn in the cribs for the hogs and in the dirt for chickens, and the rest for frying fish we caught from our boat and hushpuppies to go with the fish.